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Transcript of Marketing meeting, Feb. 12, 2009

2009-02-12T18:59:50 <themayor> hey the marketing meeting is in here

2009-02-12T18:59:54 <fugolini2> hi

2009-02-12T19:00:03 <themayor> hey fugolini2 whats up

2009-02-12T19:00:12 <Rodrigo_Padula> fugolini2, you are doing a great work as FAMSCO's leader

2009-02-12T19:00:15 <fugolini2> fine, you?

2009-02-12T19:00:21 <themayor> multiple personality disorder

2009-02-12T19:00:29 <fugolini2> Rodrigo_Padula: I'm doing what I can do, in the best way I'm able to do :)

2009-02-12T19:00:30 <themayor> ;)

2009-02-12T19:00:52 <fugolini2> btw, the great from FAmSCo came from the amazing works all of you are doing

2009-02-12T19:01:43 <fugolini2> *come

2009-02-12T19:01:47 <themayor> okay, let the marketing meeting come to order

2009-02-12T19:01:56 <fugolini2> sure, sorry for the off-topic

2009-02-12T19:02:05 <themayor> roll call

2009-02-12T19:02:17 <fugolini2> Francesco Ugolini

2009-02-12T19:02:46 <biertie> Bert Desmet

2009-02-12T19:02:53 *** fugolini has quit IRC

2009-02-12T19:03:22 *** moixs has joined #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:03:40 * Rodrigo_Padula going!! se you guys!

2009-02-12T19:03:46 <moixs> I'm late, sorry

2009-02-12T19:03:46 *** Rodrigo_Padula has left #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:03:47 <themayor> okay

2009-02-12T19:03:49 <themayor> np

2009-02-12T19:03:54 <themayor> we will give it a few minutes

2009-02-12T19:04:23 <fugolini2> I've read Ian would be there

2009-02-12T19:04:40 <themayor> yeah he said "might"

2009-02-12T19:05:40 <themayor> we are just waiting on a couple people

2009-02-12T19:06:43 * herlo is here :)

2009-02-12T19:06:51 *** mageshcse has quit IRC

2009-02-12T19:07:22 <biertie> this meeting will be a great succes again :')

2009-02-12T19:07:23 <jeremy> 000000000000.

2009-02-12T19:07:46 <themayor> lol

2009-02-12T19:08:20 <themayor> anyway dont worry about it its quality not quantity

2009-02-12T19:08:29 <fugolini2> I think the problem is that people don't understand what marketing really is

2009-02-12T19:08:30 <herlo> heh

2009-02-12T19:08:54 <fugolini2> i don't want to say people are stupid, but marketing list sometime could cause that the aim could be hidden

2009-02-12T19:09:19 <themayor> anyway thats good because thats what i wanted to talk about

2009-02-12T19:10:17 <themayor> okay great that the wiki is down

2009-02-12T19:10:20 <themayor> it will let us focus

2009-02-12T19:10:23 *** fugolini1 has quit IRC

2009-02-12T19:10:25 <themayor> i want to pitch something to you guys

2009-02-12T19:10:31 <themayor> to hopefully get things back in shape

2009-02-12T19:10:50 <themayor> okay ready

2009-02-12T19:10:57 <themayor> let me start by asking you guys a question

2009-02-12T19:11:02 <themayor> whats wrong with marketing?

2009-02-12T19:11:07 <themayor> or what do you think is wrong?

2009-02-12T19:11:30 *** herlo changes topic to "Marketing Meeting - Happening Now"

2009-02-12T19:11:34 <themayor> im not being condesceding i want to pitch something to you guys but i need to know what you think first

2009-02-12T19:12:07 <fugolini2> I think there are two big different interested mixed in one list and that cause big confusion

2009-02-12T19:12:14 <fugolini2> *interests

2009-02-12T19:12:27 <themayor> fugolini2: which interests?

2009-02-12T19:12:51 <fugolini2> Sorry for my bad wording, btw, I'll try to clean up my toughts

2009-02-12T19:13:05 <biertie> I don't understand what you mean too :)

2009-02-12T19:13:06 <fugolini2> The first interest is marketing planning, with all the connected stuffs

2009-02-12T19:13:59 <fugolini2> the second one is general marketing relations, like news catching and PR etc...

2009-02-12T19:14:31 <themayor> good, yes, you are correct in a certain sensew

2009-02-12T19:14:33 <themayor> anyone else?

2009-02-12T19:14:40 <themayor> im just trying to see what is perceived

2009-02-12T19:14:55 * fugolini2 ask all of you to rethink in good english what I mean, I'm sure it's simpler that it seems

2009-02-12T19:14:58 <moixs> I see te same problem

2009-02-12T19:15:09 <moixs> No, it's perfectly clear

2009-02-12T19:15:58 <herlo> themayor: we had our discussion the other day, but I'll reflect my thoughts again if you like

2009-02-12T19:16:05 <themayor> no thats fine

2009-02-12T19:16:11 <themayor> because it was the same vein

2009-02-12T19:16:11 <herlo> k

2009-02-12T19:16:15 <herlo> yesd

2009-02-12T19:16:22 <themayor> herlo: not that i dont want your opinion

2009-02-12T19:16:31 *** lcafiero has joined #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:16:32 <themayor> but at this point we are just restarting stuff

2009-02-12T19:16:34 <herlo> themayor: but you alread have it :)

2009-02-12T19:16:41 <themayor> let me ask lcafiero

2009-02-12T19:16:43 * lcafiero sneaks in and sits in the bak

2009-02-12T19:16:43 <themayor> shhhh

2009-02-12T19:16:56 <themayor> lcafiero: what can we improve on in marketing

2009-02-12T19:17:14 <lcafiero> (look around the room) me?

2009-02-12T19:17:37 <themayor> yes, just play along

2009-02-12T19:17:39 <biertie> I think it will be difficult to seperate those 2 things?

2009-02-12T19:17:46 <lcafiero> I think that marketing is doing well. We've talked about the meetings in other channels, where I thought they were a little hard to follow for newbs like yours truly

2009-02-12T19:18:36 <themayor> ah well maybe your greeness hasnt offered much in the way of perspective

2009-02-12T19:18:51 <themayor> but im glad that someone feels like we are getting something out of it!

2009-02-12T19:18:57 <themayor> anyway, let me go

2009-02-12T19:19:03 <themayor> if you guy dont mind, that is

2009-02-12T19:19:06 <lcafiero> Well, it doesn't stop me from having opinions, of course, but I think that executing what you plan seems to work

2009-02-12T19:19:19 <lcafiero> in this group

2009-02-12T19:19:48 <lcafiero> and that's essentially what counts.

2009-02-12T19:20:15 * fugolini2 is starting thinking M-Ls are too dispersive, and sometime, without a good email client you daily life could be complicated

2009-02-12T19:20:27 *** sdziallas has joined #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:20:35 <themayor> yes

2009-02-12T19:20:48 *** RodrigoPadula has joined #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:21:04 <themayor> okay so let me tell you guys what i think

2009-02-12T19:21:09 <themayor> marketing sucks

2009-02-12T19:21:12 <themayor> its broken

2009-02-12T19:21:16 <themayor> its down for the count

2009-02-12T19:21:34 <themayor> but i know why and i think i have a good plan to make things run better and more effeciently

2009-02-12T19:21:39 <biertie> but how will you get fedora popular without marketing?

2009-02-12T19:21:49 <biertie> because ambassadors are a part of the marketing team

2009-02-12T19:22:03 <biertie> and we just need that marketing team I think..

2009-02-12T19:22:09 <themayor> yes, i know, hold on, let me get to it

2009-02-12T19:22:14 <themayor> we have 3 issues

2009-02-12T19:22:54 <themayor> 1. we have no organization of workflow

2009-02-12T19:23:21 <themayor> what this means is, we have tasks, we have things to accomplish, we get them done, but its very informally tracked

2009-02-12T19:23:31 <themayor> a task list here, an email there

2009-02-12T19:23:33 <themayor> nothing solid

2009-02-12T19:23:41 *** moixs_ has joined #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:24:11 <moixs_> my router had the good idea to reboot itself, can you pastebin what you just said themayor ?

2009-02-12T19:24:11 <themayor> so in other words, tasks, goals and pretty much everything is not well organized

2009-02-12T19:24:19 <themayor> yes one sec

2009-02-12T19:24:22 * fugolini2 moixs i'll do it

2009-02-12T19:24:47 <themayor> thanks fugolini2

2009-02-12T19:24:54 <themayor> okay problem 2

2009-02-12T19:25:35 <moixs_> (I'm in again, agreed)

2009-02-12T19:25:55 <themayor> 2. we dont not have a clear way to delineate responsibility

2009-02-12T19:26:02 *** knurd is now known as knurd_afk

2009-02-12T19:26:03 <themayor> meaning people pick up tasks at random

2009-02-12T19:26:06 * fugolini2 np

2009-02-12T19:26:08 <themayor> thats not bad

2009-02-12T19:26:15 <themayor> we get things done, but the problem there is this

2009-02-12T19:26:33 <themayor> there is alot of confusion, alot of miscommunication and a lack of communication due to that

2009-02-12T19:26:36 <themayor> and what happens is this

2009-02-12T19:27:04 <themayor> people dont do things, not because of laziness, but because they are afraid to step on someones toes

2009-02-12T19:27:17 <themayor> if you dont know who has the ball, its hard to ask them to pass

2009-02-12T19:27:29 <themayor> what do you guys think about that?

2009-02-12T19:27:38 <themayor> theres is 1 more problem by the way

2009-02-12T19:27:39 *** willygarcia_ is now known as willy_willbeback

2009-02-12T19:27:46 <biertie> I don't think that's true

2009-02-12T19:27:52 <moixs_> go ahead and explain all the problems first :)

2009-02-12T19:27:56 * herlo kind of agrees with biertie

2009-02-12T19:28:14 <herlo> the laziness isn't the issue at all imo

2009-02-12T19:28:24 <biertie> I think some people are scared to do something, because they are scared to do something wrong

2009-02-12T19:28:31 <herlo> themayor: but continue to the last problem...

2009-02-12T19:28:32 <biertie> or not the way it should be done..

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2009-02-12T19:29:15 <themayor> 3. we have no way to sync workflow

2009-02-12T19:29:28 <themayor> marketing comes from 3 places

2009-02-12T19:29:43 <themayor> ambassadors, art and docs, plus us really

2009-02-12T19:30:05 <themayor> each of those distinct groups has some part in creating or promoting "messaging"

2009-02-12T19:30:27 <themayor> right now, marketing is not involved in art, at all

2009-02-12T19:30:33 <themayor> no should we be

2009-02-12T19:30:38 <themayor> but they should be involved with us

2009-02-12T19:31:26 <themayor> because we need to promote whatever their theme they are creating

2009-02-12T19:31:45 <themayor> docs needs to set the tone of whatever it is they write as well

2009-02-12T19:31:55 <themayor> and we are responsible for distilling and managing that

2009-02-12T19:32:03 <themayor> i.e. talking points, feature summary

2009-02-12T19:32:17 <themayor> etc etc

2009-02-12T19:32:25 <moixs_> I don't want to I don't want to toot my own horn, but aren't 3/4 of your griefs covered by the updated news distribution network proposition? We "only" need to assign people at the right places.

2009-02-12T19:32:53 <themayor> yes, but its deeper than that, moixs_ the news distribution thing only takes care of press related stuff

2009-02-12T19:33:01 <moixs_> exactly

2009-02-12T19:33:24 <moixs_> the other part I agree with, we lack a good organization to know who does what

2009-02-12T19:33:28 <themayor> that what i think can be upgraded, does anyone have any feedback on that

2009-02-12T19:33:33 <themayor> because i have a proposed solution as well

2009-02-12T19:33:44 <moixs_> go ahead :)

2009-02-12T19:33:53 <themayor> but i would like to hear feedback on the issues at hand first

2009-02-12T19:34:27 * herlo agrees that a well-defined workflow can help people who are afraid of doing something wrong

2009-02-12T19:34:45 <fugolini2> I think those point are really interesting and I'm sure working on those one could give a benefit for the whole community

2009-02-12T19:35:09 * herlo also agrees that workflow needs to have intersections with docs, art and ambassadors based upon specific events

2009-02-12T19:35:49 <herlo> I suspect that themayor has a plan with these things in min

2009-02-12T19:35:50 <herlo> d

2009-02-12T19:36:13 <herlo> Part of what I think, is that the release schedule should be our guide.

2009-02-12T19:36:38 <fugolini2> my answer is, how you are thinking to make all those 3 things done? For the 3rd point I could say Ambassadors are very interesting to join the process, FAmSCo, for example, is just investigating on what to do to help marketing

2009-02-12T19:36:43 <fugolini2> *feedback not answer

2009-02-12T19:36:54 <herlo> and we should be driving the focused message to the community

2009-02-12T19:37:00 <themayor> hehe

2009-02-12T19:37:12 <themayor> okay so heres my plan

2009-02-12T19:37:27 <themayor> we NEED to move to a release based schedule

2009-02-12T19:37:35 <themayor> we have a pseudo-calendar

2009-02-12T19:37:57 <themayor> starting from T-minus 1 month from before the alpha

2009-02-12T19:38:08 <themayor> and items to hit at each week and month milestone

2009-02-12T19:38:27 <themayor> those tasks get divided up to people who are noted on the list

2009-02-12T19:38:36 <themayor> this also makes for clearer comms

2009-02-12T19:38:46 *** moixs has quit IRC

2009-02-12T19:38:59 <themayor> on our timeline, we include things that need to be coordinated with art, with docs, with ambassadors

2009-02-12T19:39:10 <moixs_> This is an excellent idea, short term goals are always better in project management

2009-02-12T19:39:19 <themayor> so like pre-alpha we need to talk to art about the theme for the release

2009-02-12T19:39:33 <themayor> before beta we need to start talking to docs about talking points to give to press

2009-02-12T19:39:38 <themayor> or maybe thats alpha

2009-02-12T19:39:42 * herlo wants to suggest we don't wait until the F12 release cycle to implement this process.

2009-02-12T19:39:52 <themayor> no i dont think so either

2009-02-12T19:39:58 <herlo> we can work our the kinks this time

2009-02-12T19:40:11 <herlo> and improve each release...

2009-02-12T19:40:26 * fugolini2 agrees with herlo tought too

2009-02-12T19:40:31 <themayor> this way, if someone asks us at any point in time, what are you doing, who is doing it, who are they working with, we can answer

2009-02-12T19:40:45 * biertie agrees with herlo and themayor

2009-02-12T19:40:48 <themayor> herlo, working on testing guide, working with docs

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2009-02-12T19:41:13 <themayor> themayor working on press, talking with red hat pr

2009-02-12T19:41:29 <themayor> fugolini2 working on talking points, with ambasadors

2009-02-12T19:41:30 *** warren_ is now known as warren

2009-02-12T19:41:32 <themayor> etc etc

2009-02-12T19:41:40 * herlo thought for a second there he'd been assigned stuff and didn't even know it :)

2009-02-12T19:41:40 <themayor> and as we hit each milestone we just check it off

2009-02-12T19:41:45 <themayor> and we know who is responsible

2009-02-12T19:41:55 <themayor> herlo: lol, no those we examples

2009-02-12T19:42:00 <themayor> you know its visual

2009-02-12T19:42:05 <biertie> but I think we should have a 'control' board too :)

2009-02-12T19:42:05 <herlo> :) nw

2009-02-12T19:42:06 <themayor> its easy to see and to read and understand

2009-02-12T19:42:14 <themayor> biertie: how do you mean?

2009-02-12T19:42:18 <themayor> like governance

2009-02-12T19:42:18 <biertie> so when a newbe (like me) does a job

2009-02-12T19:42:32 <biertie> and he screws up..

2009-02-12T19:43:05 <biertie> that we notice that fast enough, and set someone else on the job / helps him out / ...

2009-02-12T19:43:11 <themayor> thats fine thats learning on the job, but a release based process will help us with things like mentors and mentoring like biertie is talking about

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2009-02-12T19:43:28 <themayor> yes, if what we need to get done is clearly defined, its easy for a mentor to work with someone

2009-02-12T19:43:42 <moixs_> Funny enough, all necessary pages on the marketing wiki already exist, except that they are completely unmaintained and outdated :)

2009-02-12T19:43:51 <themayor> yes

2009-02-12T19:43:55 <themayor> what i propose is this

2009-02-12T19:44:04 <themayor> we have marketing/schedule and marketing/schedule/current

2009-02-12T19:44:10 <themayor> schedule is the template

2009-02-12T19:44:19 <themayor> where we put down all the tasks, relative dates, etc

2009-02-12T19:44:20 <moixs_> This wiki is half a piece of junk, we should go trough it once and delete half the pages and start with something fresh

2009-02-12T19:44:30 <themayor> current is the one for this release

2009-02-12T19:44:35 * herlo suggests you call it 'schedule/template' and 'schedule/current'

2009-02-12T19:44:44 <herlo> or somethign liek that, otherwise it could get confusing

2009-02-12T19:44:44 <biertie> I think that's a bit difficult moixs_ ;)

2009-02-12T19:45:00 <moixs_> And delete Marketing/Schedule if you do this :)

2009-02-12T19:45:02 <themayor> moixs_: one day we will go through it and expunge the old stuff

2009-02-12T19:45:13 <themayor> but not now, too little time and too much to do

2009-02-12T19:45:14 <herlo> moixs_: deleting pages in the wiki is hard to convince ianweller to do

2009-02-12T19:45:17 <themayor> lets get back on our feet

2009-02-12T19:45:32 <biertie> buy what's old? I still know people that run FC5

2009-02-12T19:45:49 <themayor> no like outdated stuff from marketing he means

2009-02-12T19:45:58 <moixs_> :)

2009-02-12T19:46:04 <biertie> oh, srry

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2009-02-12T19:46:35 <themayor> okay so does all this stuff sound half-decent

2009-02-12T19:46:49 <moixs_> themayor: you seem to have a pretty clear idea of the milestones we need to reach for a release, it would be a good start to define them.

2009-02-12T19:46:55 <moixs_> it does, absolutely

2009-02-12T19:46:56 <themayor> hopefully people can see we are making progress and we can get people back on track and to the meetings as well

2009-02-12T19:47:06 <fugolini2> yea

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2009-02-12T19:47:12 <themayor> moixs_: well i do and i dont, but i need other people to tell me what i miss

2009-02-12T19:47:44 <moixs_> I have just no idea about that...except alpha, beta, RC and GA ;)

2009-02-12T19:47:48 <themayor> i dont know EVERYTHING marketing needs to do

2009-02-12T19:48:05 <themayor> yes, those are the milestones,

2009-02-12T19:48:12 <themayor> then we need to define the tasks around each

2009-02-12T19:48:18 <themayor> but its no for now

2009-02-12T19:48:19 <fugolini2> themayor: I'm sure what you said is just enought to start :)

2009-02-12T19:48:20 <herlo> themayor: how long will it take to get the schedule up? I think that'll help us get a clearer idea of milestones and start volunteering for duties. Next week too soon?

2009-02-12T19:48:27 <themayor> no

2009-02-12T19:48:29 <themayor> ive been working on it

2009-02-12T19:48:34 <herlo> yay

2009-02-12T19:48:39 <themayor> i would like to say that it will be up my monday at the latest

2009-02-12T19:48:49 <themayor> but heres the thing

2009-02-12T19:48:57 <themayor> right now, today, i need everyones help

2009-02-12T19:49:09 <themayor> im going to post this pseudo-proposal to the list

2009-02-12T19:49:19 <themayor> can everyone please comment on it there

2009-02-12T19:49:27 <fugolini2> sure

2009-02-12T19:49:28 <themayor> the only reason i ask is, i want to get more people involved

2009-02-12T19:49:39 <themayor> especially people who couldnt make it

2009-02-12T19:49:39 <biertie> ok

2009-02-12T19:49:40 *** willy_willbeback is now known as willygarcia_

2009-02-12T19:49:47 <themayor> like ianweller, jonrob, inode0, etc

2009-02-12T19:49:51 <moixs_> ok

2009-02-12T19:49:54 <themayor> for their benefit

2009-02-12T19:50:15 <herlo> sounds good...

2009-02-12T19:50:23 <moixs_> No, they worked hard i nthe past, let's screw them over! :p

2009-02-12T19:50:25 <themayor> i will send the whole things as one proposal, let people talk about it, but people need to comment, because alot of people think the list is dead

2009-02-12T19:50:37 <themayor> and then we pick up steam

2009-02-12T19:50:40 <themayor> i will put up the calendar

2009-02-12T19:50:58 <themayor> and some tasks, people can propose other tasks on the wiki too and make them part of the timeline

2009-02-12T19:51:22 <themayor> and we start working from there

2009-02-12T19:52:01 <themayor> at one point, maybe 2 weeks, we invite people from art, ambassadors, docs to the meeting to speak about what we need to sync with them and continue on the list and wiki

2009-02-12T19:52:12 <fugolini2> great!

2009-02-12T19:52:21 <biertie> sounds good! :)

2009-02-12T19:52:27 <themayor> and we use this starting immediately and keep improving the next few cycles, right?

2009-02-12T19:52:44 <themayor> it will be good too because we can easily coordinate with poelstra as well

2009-02-12T19:53:55 * moixs_ already has ideas for milestones

2009-02-12T19:53:56 <themayor> when he has his big release meetings we will be on the ball

2009-02-12T19:54:15 <themayor> okay so if thats that, and everyone agrees, that will be it, except for one thing

2009-02-12T19:54:40 <fugolini2> what?

2009-02-12T19:54:53 <themayor> thats two action items, jack put up the calendar and everyone else comment on my post to the list

2009-02-12T19:54:57 <themayor> and one more thing

2009-02-12T19:55:38 <themayor> can someone volunteer to make some space for the meeting notes on the wiki

2009-02-12T19:56:10 <moixs_> you mean the log?

2009-02-12T19:56:15 <themayor> yeah

2009-02-12T19:56:23 <themayor> we have a good system on the comm arch pages

2009-02-12T19:56:32 <themayor> basically we have a grid for meeting sates

2009-02-12T19:57:14 <themayor> dates

2009-02-12T19:57:17 <themayor> and each date is a link

2009-02-12T19:57:38 <themayor> we have a log sometimes, action items, anything relevant

2009-02-12T19:57:48 <moixs_> I don't have the slightest experience in putting up logs there, but I guess it isn't much more than a copy-paste and throw it in some irc2html script?

2009-02-12T19:58:04 <themayor> 'i think it will be good, alot of people last week were very thankful about the meetings summary because they couldnt be here

2009-02-12T19:58:15 <themayor> and people will feel less out of the loop

2009-02-12T19:59:25 <moixs_> What's the page it's on?

2009-02-12T19:59:30 *** mcepl has left #fedora-meeting

2009-02-12T19:59:35 <themayor> for comm arch or for marketing?

2009-02-12T19:59:55 <moixs_> Marketing/Meetings ?

2009-02-12T20:00:12 <themayor> yeah

2009-02-12T20:00:27 <themayor> it hasnt been taken care of in years, moixs_ are you interested in cleaning that up

2009-02-12T20:00:57 <themayor> pretty please?

2009-02-12T20:00:59 <moixs_> Ok, I'll do it

2009-02-12T20:01:02 <themayor> thanks

2009-02-12T20:01:16 <moixs_> Note, i don't have the whole log for this week

2009-02-12T20:02:09 <themayor> okay so thats the meeting, let me just list again what we need to get done

2009-02-12T20:02:13 <moixs_> Can someone send it to me?

2009-02-12T20:02:30 <themayor> moixs_: i can send it to you

2009-02-12T20:02:34 <moixs_>, I'll take care of the formating

2009-02-12T20:02:39 <moixs_> thanks

2009-02-12T20:03:14 <biertie> ok :)

2009-02-12T20:04:02 * fugolini2 is lagged, i'm receiving everything 5mins all the things

2009-02-12T20:04:17 <biertie> lol?

2009-02-12T20:04:56 <moixs_> So, have a nice evening :)

2009-02-12T20:05:02 <fugolini2> you too 2009-02-12T20:05:02 <moixs_> I'm really happy about this meeting

2009-02-12T20:05:45 * moixs_ thinks it's time for some TV and a beer

2009-02-12T20:05:46 <fugolini2> me too

2009-02-12T20:06:04 *** moixs_ has quit IRC

2009-02-12T20:06:22 <herlo> hehe, have fun folks

2009-02-12T20:06:49 <biertie> ok :)

2009-02-12T20:07:01 *** herlo changes topic to "Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See for meeting schedule"

2009-02-12T20:07:03 <biertie> I think too that it was a good meeting, srry I couldn't help much

2009-02-12T20:07:05 <herlo> Retrieved from "Meeting_channel"