From Fedora Project Wiki

The printable version is no longer supported and may have rendering errors. Please update your browser bookmarks and please use the default browser print function instead.

Fedora Packaging Committee Meeting of {2008-03-11}

Present

  • DominikMierzejewski (Rathann|work)
  • HansdeGoede (hansg)
  • JasonTibbitts (tibbs)
  • RalfCorsepius (racor)
  • RexDieter (rdieter)
  • TomCallaway (spot)
  • ToshioKuratomi (abadger1999)
  • VilleSkyttä (scop)

Proposals

The following proposals were considered:

  • Ban unicode in package names (no draft submitted)
  • Not accepted
  • Voting for: racor rdieter
  • Voting against: abadger1999
  • Abstaining: tibbs

Next Meeting

Unless the time is changed to adjust for DST or the schedules of the new committee members, the next meeting will be March 25 at 17:00 UTC in

  1. fedora-meeting.

IRC Logs

[12:05]  <hansg> Hi all, I don't know how involved in any discussions I'll be as I'm home alone with my 2 (awake) daughters of 10 months resp. 4 years old.
[12:06]  <scop> unfortunately I'll have to leave in about 10 minutes today
[12:06]  * rwmjones just wants to discuss any issues with http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OCaml
[12:07]  <hansg> rwmjones, I've taken a good look at it this week, and it looks fine to me
[12:07]  <-- svahl has left this channel.
[12:07]  <hansg> But don't  shouldn't we have something like a schedule and someone leading the meeting (making sure we sortof stick to the schedule)
[12:08]  <rdieter> spot: ping, around to lead FPC meeting?
[12:09]  <hansg> Does anyone have the right to set the topic here?
[12:09]  <tibbs> Yes.
[12:09]  <tibbs> The running agenda is http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/GuidelinesTodo
[12:10]  <spot> sorry, lunch ran late
[12:10]  * spot is here now
[12:12]  <spot> who else is still around? abadger1999, racor, hansg, rdieter, Rathann|work, scop?
[12:12]  * abadger1999 half here.  Also busy with FAS2 migration.
[12:12]  <rdieter> here
[12:12]  * hansg is here (sortof also babysitting at the same time :)
[12:12]  <racor> here
[12:12]  <scop> still around, but will need to leave in just a couple of minutes, so count me out
[12:13]  <tibbs> Can we get opinions on the ocaml changes really quick?
[12:13]  <rwmjones> any questions, just ask me
[12:13]  * spot is still reading the ocaml draft
[12:13]  <hansg> ocaml gets +! from me
[12:13]  <tibbs> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OCaml
[12:13]  <hansg> make that +1
[12:14]  <tibbs> I wish the draft indicated where the changes are.
[12:14]  <spot> you're disabling debuginfo
[12:14]  <spot> is that really what we want to do?
[12:14]  <tibbs> You have to disable debuginfo for ocaml.
[12:14]  <tibbs> Otherwise it just comes out empty.
[12:15]  <rwmjones> debuginfo doesn't really contain anything useful for ocaml programs
[12:15]  <rwmjones> you _can_ debug them under gdb
[12:15]  <rwmjones> but gdb doesn't know the language so you end up having to debug assembler
[12:15]  <rwmjones> (if I've understood the purpose of debuginfo, that is)
[12:15]  <scop> "Binaries should be stripped, as per ordinary Fedora packaging guidelines." is misleading
[12:15]  <tibbs> Not to mention that the compiler doesn't put in any symbols that you could strip out.
[12:15]  * Rathann|work is here
[12:15]  <abadger1999> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OCaml?action=diff&rev2=3&rev1=1
[12:16]  <rwmjones> scop I didn't understand that -- I just meant that ordinary Fedora policy about stripping binaries should apply, except in that one special circumstance (which in practice affects precisely two binaries at the moment)
[12:17]  <scop> ok
[12:17]  <spot> +1 from me
[12:17]  <Rathann|work> rwmjones: as far as I know this stripping bug is being addressed upstream
[12:17]  <rwmjones> Rathann|work, afaiaa upstream rejected it?
[12:18]  <rwmjones> if you follow that debian bug report you'll see some messages from upstream on the subject
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> yes
[12:18]  <tibbs> If in the future is addressed upstream then we can update the guidelines to indicate releases where it is no longer necessary to avoid stripping.
[12:18]  <scop> sorry, I need to go now, and am not familiar enough with the draft to vote
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> > Rather than muck with ELF, a simpler solution would be to embed the
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> > bytecode executable as initialized C arrays in the executable
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> > generated by ocamlc -custom.  That's what ocamlc -output-obj does, and
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> > I believe it shouldn't be too hard to adapt the existing -output-obj
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> > code to the -custom case.
[12:18]  <Rathann|work> Mmm. Ok, it will be ocaml 3.09 stuff though.
[12:18]  <rwmjones> ah ok, upstream did a partial fix in ocaml 3.09
[12:18]  <rwmjones> but they didn't fix the ocamlc -custom case
[12:18]  <rwmjones> it used to be that you couldn't strip any bytecode binaries at all, but that's not true since 3.09
[12:19]  <abadger1999> Do we need to/want to discuss new meeting times?  (Since we have new members)?
[12:19]  <-- scop has left this channel ("Leaving").
[12:19]  <spot> abadger1999: lets do that on the mailing list
[12:19]  * spot tries to keep us focused on the ocaml topic
[12:19]  <spot> if you haven't voted, please do so. issue needs +5 to pass.
[12:19]  <Rathann|work> +1 from me
[12:19]  <rdieter> +1
[12:20]  <rwmjones> that's +4 so far by my count ...
[12:20]  <tibbs> +1 all seems reasonable.
[12:20]  <hansg> still +1 from me
[12:20]  <racor> 0
[12:20]  <Rathann|work> I'd like the find-provides/requires to hack to find its way into our rpm-build package
[12:20]  <tibbs> Plus I've reviewed a bunch of ocaml stuff and this will help to clarify.
[12:20]  <abadger1999> rwmjones: What is the META file you reference?
[12:20]  <spot> abadger1999: want to vote?
[12:20]  <rwmjones> Rathann|work, there's still a bug that I'm working with upstream about
[12:20]  <Rathann|work> cool
[12:20]  <tibbs> I agree with Rathann|work that it should get upstream.
[12:21]  <abadger1999> I want to +1 as son as I know what META is.
[12:21]  <rwmjones> abadger1999, META is a file which describes how libraries are linked together (kind of link pkg-config)
[12:21]  <tibbs> But we can't really wait.
[12:21]  <rwmjones> abadger1999, debian agreed to standardize and have _all_ their libraries require a valid META file
[12:21]  <tibbs> abadger1999: There's a file named META that contains some package description.
[12:21]  <rwmjones> so I copied their policy for us
[12:21]  <abadger1999> rwmjones: What should the packager/reviewer "check" in it?
[12:21]  <rwmjones> not much, basically just the 'requires = "..."' lists all required libraries
[12:22]  <rwmjones> I should reference some upstream documentation about META if I can find any ...
[12:22]  <rwmjones> hmm
[12:22]  * rwmjones checks
[12:22]  <tibbs> Hmm, yeah, might be nice to say what should be there.
[12:22]  <tibbs> I've only been checking that it exists.
[12:22]  <abadger1999> Ocaml +1
[12:22]  <spot> ok, it passes.
[12:22]  <rwmjones> do I need to take it to fesco now?
[12:23]  <spot> rwmjones: we'll take it
[12:23]  <tibbs> It will be in the summary and fesco will discuss it on Thursday.
[12:23]  <rwmjones> ok thanks
[12:23]  <spot> Next item: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OpenOffice.orgExtensions
[12:23]  <spot> diff since we last discussed it: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OpenOffice.orgExtensions?action=diff&rev2=4&rev1=2
[12:25]  <spot> the main concern from before was that we weren't sure how unpacking the file in advance saved disk space
[12:25]  <spot> caolan updated the draft with explanatio
[12:25]  <spot> ...n. :)
[12:25]  <spot> it also includes an example, so I'm +1 on this.
[12:26]  <tibbs> I don't remember whether we discussed it last time, but is there nothing compiled in these extensions?
[12:26]  <spot> tibbs: i'm pretty sure the answer is no
[12:27]  <Rathann|work> what language are they written in?
[12:27]  <rwmjones> sorry to interrupt out of turn, I've just made this edit which adds a link describing META files: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/OCaml?action=diff&rev2=4&rev1=3
[12:27]  <tibbs> Most of these are in Java, I think.
[12:27]  <Rathann|work> I mean, they're not binaries, are they?
[12:28]  <abadger1999> is the new example correct?  It looks like the unpackaed extension is going in a directory with a .zip extension.
[12:28]  <hansg> Hmm, IMHO the openoffice-foo naming should be made mandatory
[12:28]  <spot> i think they're java goop
[12:28]  <Rathann|work> hm
[12:28]  <tibbs> Do we still want to see Java guidelines first?
[12:28]  <Rathann|work> shouldn't they be compiled using our javac then?
[12:29]  <tibbs> It's possible that compiling them would have no use.
[12:29]  <tibbs> But honestly someone who knows needs to be around to answer these questions.
[12:29]  <abadger1999> hansg: +1
[12:30]  <rdieter> no precompiled binaries is pretty much already covered by existing guidelines.
[12:30]  <spot> ok, i'll pose these items to caolan and we'll revisit it in two weeks
[12:30]  <tibbs> Also, there's probably no point in having Orion in the template changelog.
[12:30]  <Rathann|work> rwmjones: you should add a footnote link, not just tell people to look at the bottom
[12:30]  <hansg> Indeed I see no compiling / build step in the current .spec example. Since its mandatory that everything gets compiled from source, this is not acceptable
[12:30]  <abadger1999> rdieter: True, but the examples should show that then.
[12:30]  <spot> next item: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Tcl
[12:31]  <spot> since last discussed: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Tcl?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
[12:31]  <tibbs> hansg: Many specs have no %build and that's not problematic.
[12:31]  <spot> the concern was around the ambivalent naming case
[12:31]  <spot> he has since resolved it
[12:31]  <tibbs> If there's nothing to compile, the rule about compiling from source doesn't really apply.
[12:31]  <Rathann|work> tibbs: yes, but they contain scripts, not binaries
[12:31]  <Rathann|work> or firmware
[12:31]  <hansg> tibbs I know, but these plugins are code afaik, not data files / nor in an intepreted language
[12:31]  <racor> where in $PATH is unopkg? fc8 has /usr/lib64/openoffice.org/program/unopkg, so scriptlets won't work
[12:32]  <spot> [spot@localhost logjam-4.5.3] $ rpm -qf /usr/bin/unopkg
[12:32]  <spot> openoffice.org-core-2.4.0-9.1.fc9.x86_64
[12:32]  <hansg> I was just about to complement spot that he is keeping the tempo up, but it seems we're still at ooo extensions?
[12:32]  <tibbs> I guess doing to tcl was optimistic.
[12:33]  * spot waves his hands about
[12:33]  <racor> spot: => R: openoffice.org-core is not sufficient
[12:33]  <tibbs> racor: The scriptlets do work.
[12:33]  <tibbs> I can't say just how.
[12:33]  <hansg> racor, you;re probably at F-8, and this is F-9 and up only
[12:33]  <tibbs> See the existing writer2latex package, btw.
[12:33]  <rdieter> in particular, ooo >= 2.4
[12:33]  <racor> tibbs: fc8 doesn't have /usr/bin/unopkg => this proposal is incompatible to fc8
[12:34]  <tibbs> racor: Who said it was supposed to be compatible with f8?
[12:34]  <spot> i will have caolan clarify how to do this for F-8 and older.
[12:34]  <Rathann|work> -1 from me on openoffice extensions for packaging java binaries without compiling them
[12:34]  <tibbs> caolan indicated that he may push 2.4.0 to the release branches which would bring in a proper unopkg.
[12:34]  <hansg> Rathann|work,  no voting needed I think, this cleary needs more work
[12:34]  <spot> Rathann|work: we're not voting on this draft, it still has obvious issues
[12:35]  <racor> hansg: Yes, FC8. This proposal apparently is only applicable for fc >9.
[12:35]  <spot> we are, however, now looking at the tcl draft.
[12:35]  <spot> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Tcl
[12:35]  <spot> diff since last discussed: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Tcl?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
[12:35]  <spot> from last time, the concern was around the ambivalent naming case, which the author has resolved.
[12:36]  <spot> I'm +1 on this.
[12:37]  * spot assumes everyone is reading (or i've fallen off the internet)
[12:37]  * Rathann|work is reading
[12:37]  <rdieter> "This rule applies even for Tcl/Tk packages that are already prefixed with tcl in the name (see examples below)", really?
[12:37]  <abadger1999> all the things I remember being issues have been cleaned up.
[12:37]  <tibbs> I guess EPEL people might appreciate some comments on some of the version-specific issues in those releases.
[12:37]  <tibbs> But we can add that later.
[12:38]  <rdieter> I'm only curious, I'm +1 either way.
[12:39]  <abadger1999> +1
[12:39]  <hansg> +1
[12:39]  <spot> thats +4. +5 needed. :)
[12:39]  <tibbs> FYI, yum list tcl\*|grep -v tcl- gives 21 packages.
[12:40]  <tibbs> So we'd have tcl-tclxml according to these new naming guidelines.
[12:40]  <tibbs> And I picked the example that's already in there.  Duh.
[12:41]  <Rathann|work> looks sensible, +1
[12:41]  <tibbs> Anyway, +1.
[12:41]  <tibbs> But we need to think about whether we want existing packages to be renamed.
[12:41]  <spot> tibbs: we've never mandated that in the past.
[12:41]  <hansg> tibbs: renaming -1
[12:41]  <rdieter> I was wonderying why tcl- was mandatory.  That's contrary to our guidelines wrt python, for example.
[12:41]  <spot> our guidelines don't forbid it.
[12:42]  <tibbs> I personally dislike the python guidelines because of that.
[12:42]  <spot> anyways, it passes
[12:42]  <spot> PackagingDrafts/Lisp still isn't ready, i need to spend some time working on that one with the author
[12:42]  <rdieter> tibbs: I'd prefer consistency, one way or the other.
[12:43]  <spot> thats all the items that I have on the schedule
[12:43]  <Rathann|work> rdieter: I've been told to rename a subpackage from foo-python to python-foo a couple of times
[12:43]  <spot> the floor is open to any other issues
[12:43]  <tibbs> I only bring up the renaming because I don't think we've made guideline changes that would cause so much renaming before.
[12:43]  <hansg> I would like to start working on the java guidelines
[12:43]  <tibbs> Yes.
[12:43]  <spot> hansg: great!
[12:43]  <rdieter> Rathann|work: been there, done that. :)
[12:43]  <spot> you don't need our permission to do that. ;)
[12:43]  <tibbs> hansg: Did you get the message about the conference call?
[12:44]  <hansg> So any people who are willing to assist (as in review what ever ugly thing I come up with) ?
[12:44]  <tibbs> I think the idea of a conference call is kind of pointless but I'm going to try to be up early enough to attend anyway.
[12:44]  <tibbs> hansg: Did you see the in-progress draft?
[12:44]  <hansg> Or shall I just post a message to the packaging-list when I've got a new draft ready?
[12:44]  <tibbs> Folks have been working on it.
[12:44]  <spot> hansg: the packaging-list might not be a bad idea, a wider audience
[12:45]  <abadger1999> We have unicode naming from last wekk.
[12:45]  <hansg> tibbs: yes and I'm in contact with Lubu erm whats his name?
[12:45]  <abadger1999> I'm still -1 to banning unicode in package names.
[12:45]  <hansg> Conference call?
[12:45]  <Rathann|work> abadger1999: well, I was half-joking in my posts on that topic ;)
[12:45]  <abadger1999> But there might be enough people to passit.
[12:45]  <Rathann|work> -1 from me too
[12:45]  <tibbs> hansg: Yes, Andrew Overholt mailed a bunch of people about having a conference call on Friday.
[12:46]  <hansg> I'm -1 to unicode in packagenames , package name == filename, and our mirrors aren't ready, I'm not even sure we are ready.
[12:46]  <tibbs> I'm happy to simply not vote until we know the infrastructure is ready.
[12:47]  <abadger1999> hansg: The proposal was from racor:  "Ban unicode in package names"
[12:47]  <hansg> tibbs, a conference call about the java guidelines?
[12:47]  <tibbs> Although I think we should have one inconsequential unicode package name just to test our infrastructure.
[12:47]  <hansg> abadger1999,  I know
[12:47]  <tibbs> hansg: Yes.  Andrew Overholt == big Java guy in Red Hat.
[12:47]  <abadger1999> Okay.  But you'd be +1 to the proposal then.
[12:47]  <Rathann|work> écolier-fonts?
[12:47]  <tibbs> Lubomir isn't really the person to be talking to as far as I know.
[12:48]  <hansg> tibbs, which sounds like a good idea until createrepo explodes on updates, or half of the mirrors fail to sync
[12:48]  <hansg> abadger1999, yes
[12:48]  <tibbs> If we keep our heads in the sand and never test it, we'll never test it.  At some point we have to try sometthing.
[12:48]  <tibbs> But that's more in the court of the infrastructure folks.
[12:50]  <hansg> tibbs, about the java things, Lubomir  was asking people to take a look at the guidelines on fedora-devel list, but I'll get in contact with Andrew too.
[12:50]  <tibbs> hansg: We're seeing the typical tichotomy between people who work better in person or via voice and the people who want to work by email, wiki and IRC.
[12:51]  <tibbs> Personally I don't understand why we need a conference call at all, but I didn't call for it, so....
[12:51]  <abadger1999> Maybe we need to create a little repo on our infrastructure that gets mirrored but isn't the main repo.  Then we can start trying things and see what breaks.
[12:52]  <abadger1999> drop écolier-fonts in there and see what breaks.
[12:52]  <hansg> abadger1999, sounds like a plan
[12:52]  <tibbs> A pain for someone besides us, though.
[12:52]  * abadger1999 opens a ticket
[12:53]  <tibbs> I say we can ask infrastructure to tell us when they think things are ready.  Until then we obviously can't have utf8 package names for fear of breaking things.
[12:53]  <racor> sorry, i got distracted
[12:54]  <racor> abadger1999: -1
[12:54]  <tibbs> racor: -1 to what?
[12:55]  <racor> to abadger1999's drop écolier-fonts in there and see what breaks
[12:55]  <tibbs> That's an infrastructure team matter.
[12:55]  <racor> tibbs: my issue is not the infrastructure, my point is usability
[12:55]  <abadger1999> racor: Because of usability?
[12:56]  <racor> abadger1999: let me reiterate: ban non acsii, because many users will not be able to type such package names
[12:56]  <hansg> racor I think you misunderstand / misread, abadger proposed a seperate unicode-test repo, and then request some mirrors to carry this (seperately) and then we can get some idea if utf-8 names are technicall feasible
[12:57]  <tibbs> You know, I think we all understand the point that you're against this.  Simply throwing out -1 whenever someone wants to investigate part of the issue really isn't productive.
[12:57]  <racor> hansg: this would be OK
[12:57]  <spot> ok, so the proposal is to ban unicode (non-ascii) in package names
[12:57]  <hansg> racor: system -> preferences -> hardware -> keyboard
[12:57]  <spot> can i see votes on that specific proposal?
[12:58]  <racor> tibbs:  drop écolier-fonts in there and see what breaks to me means : release this package under this name and see who complains.
[12:58]  <hansg> layoutoptions-> composekey -> choose one
[12:58]  <hansg> compose " e ->ë
[12:58]  <tibbs> I wish I had a compose key.
[12:58]  <racor> tibbs: gotcha
[12:58]  <abadger1999> racor: Sorry.  My thought was split over two lines.
[12:58]  * spot whistles to himself
[12:58]  <hansg> tibbs, you can choose one, I use left alt, or one of those never used windows keys
[12:59]  <abadger1999> spot: -1
[12:59]  <hansg> make that right alt
[12:59]  <racor> hansg: I give you 5 secs to answer: type a cyrillic "k" (small k)
[12:59]  <hansg> anyways the point is latin1 chars aren't that hard, I agree chinese chars is a different story
[13:00]  <tibbs> spot: 0
[13:00]  <hansg> racor that isn't laten1 but latin2
[13:00]  <tibbs> I don't think we can really consider the matter as long as a vote allowing utf8 package names is pointless because infrastructure blocks it.
[13:00]  * spot calls for votes again...
[13:00]  <racor> hansg: to you! to aunt tillie "é" or "ß" is a problem
[13:00]  <hansg> aunt tillie will use a gui -> no problem
[13:01]  <tibbs> The aunt tillie argument really gets old.
[13:01]  <tibbs> She'll just click.
[13:01]  <racor> sorry, but this is going to be ridiculous
[13:01]  <-- racor has left this server ("Leaving").
[13:02]  <tibbs> "takes his ball...."
[13:02]  <rdieter> spot: +1 (at least until infrastructure signs off)
[13:02]  <hansg> spot votes for what, I say lets vote to end this meeting :)
[13:02]  <spot> since we're down to 6 members, and two have voted either against or to abstain...
[13:02]  <spot> the measure fails
[13:03]  <spot> are there any other items for today?
[13:03]  <tibbs> Did we make any progress on the remaining vacancy?
[13:03]  <hansg> am I one of those 2? and what measure I'm confused now
[13:03]  <spot> <spot> ok, so the proposal is to ban unicode (non-ascii) in package names
[13:03]  <spot> <abadger1999> spot: -1
[13:03]  <spot> <tibbs> spot: 0
[13:03]  <hansg> ok
[13:04]  <spot> if you don't have anything additional for today, please indicate that no, you do not. :)
[13:04]  <spot> my psychic powers only work on thursday.
[13:04]  <hansg> I don't
[13:04]  <tibbs> Nothing besides the question I just posed.
[13:04]  <rdieter> no
[13:04]  <spot> tibbs: we have some volunteers, i'm going to send an email out for people to vote on them.
[13:04]  <tibbs> Cool, thanks.
[13:05]  <spot> ok guys, we're done for today. thanks for your patience. we'll meet again in two weeks.
[13:05]  <abadger1999> no
Retrieved from "https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Packaging:Minutes20080311&oldid=66587"