QA/Meetings/20080305

Meeting Summary

• Review of last weeks items
• some installer test discussion
• changes in anaconda
• changes in testing plan for Beta
• discussion of forming a Release Test Team

Action Items

• New
• ?

• Existing
• wooods - talk to quaid about summer of code test reporting project
• atodorov - status check-in on a dogtail test that uses anaconda .glade files (wasn't formal ... but may be good for a check-in next week)

• Completed
• wwoods - begin stubbing out interoperability (dual-boot) test cases in F9 Install Test Plan
• jlaska - update TreeTestingTemplate to line up with Test Plan
• poelstra - add F9Install test plan link to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/HowToTest

IRC Log

#!html

wwoods
| jlaska: pong. meeting time!
<a href="#t10:01:52" class="time">10:01</a>
jlaska
| wwoods: yay, what's the plan today?
<a href="#t10:02:16" class="time">10:02</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora QA meeting | Followup from previous meetings
<a href="#t10:02:52" class="time">10:02</a>
wwoods
| first that
<a href="#t10:02:54" class="time">10:02</a>
wwoods
| then.. some installer test discussion
<a href="#t10:03:22" class="time">10:03</a>
wwoods
| 1) changes in anaconda
<a href="#t10:03:29" class="time">10:03</a>
wwoods
| 2) changes in testing plan for Beta
<a href="#t10:03:38" class="time">10:03</a>
wwoods
| 3) discussion of forming a Release Test Team
<a href="#t10:03:50" class="time">10:03</a>
wwoods
| well, a Fedora RTT
<a href="#t10:04:15" class="time">10:04</a>
wwoods
| jlaska: any notes from previous meetings that need discussion?
<a href="#t10:05:53" class="time">10:05</a>
* | wwoods checking his notes
<a href="#t10:05:56" class="time">10:05</a>
jlaska
| wwoods: the last notes I have are from our last formal meeting ... (<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20080206">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20080206</a>)
<a href="#t10:07:04" class="time">10:07</a>
wwoods
| woo, that was a while ago
<a href="#t10:07:36" class="time">10:07</a>
wwoods
| yeah I don't really have anything to report back on
<a href="#t10:08:11" class="time">10:08</a>
wwoods
| oh, are you logging this?
<a href="#t10:08:25" class="time">10:08</a>
jlaska
| I'll log it
<a href="#t10:09:24" class="time">10:09</a>
* | jlaska waits for wiki ...
<a href="#t10:10:26" class="time">10:10</a>
wwoods
| so the only thing from last week that's worth discussing is
<a href="#t10:11:05" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| I haven't had time to work on snake->kvm installs
<a href="#t10:11:15" class="time">10:11</a>
* | f13 is here
<a href="#t10:11:16" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| but! rawhide is installable
<a href="#t10:11:21" class="time">10:11</a>
f13
| indeed
<a href="#t10:11:26" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| shouldn't blow up with mkinitrd
<a href="#t10:11:32" class="time">10:11</a>
f13
| some things are still horkey though
<a href="#t10:11:33" class="time">10:11</a>
jlaska
| "installable" [1] 
<a href="#t10:11:33" class="time">10:11</a>
jlaska
| :)
<a href="#t10:11:35" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| *and* has stage2=XXX support
<a href="#t10:11:37" class="time">10:11</a>
f13
| I would really like to have my ability to select text back.
<a href="#t10:11:51" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| (which is interesting from a tester perspective and important for PreUpgrade)
<a href="#t10:11:54" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods
| anyway
<a href="#t10:12:27" class="time">10:12</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | Anaconda changes in F9Beta
<a href="#t10:12:39" class="time">10:12</a>
wwoods
| more good news: rescueCD supports encrypted devices now
<a href="#t10:12:57" class="time">10:12</a>
wwoods
| here are the interesting changes:
<a href="#t10:13:42" class="time">10:13</a>
wwoods
| 1) no more boot.iso or diskboot.img
<a href="#t10:13:47" class="time">10:13</a>
wwoods
| they've been replaced with.. netinst.iso? I think that's the name
<a href="#t10:14:22" class="time">10:14</a>
wwoods
| which is, basically, the rescuecd (with a different name to give people a better idea what it's for)
<a href="#t10:14:46" class="time">10:14</a>
wwoods
| pxeboot images are still there, so SNAKE still works
<a href="#t10:15:13" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods
| so the two recommended methods for installing rawhide are:
<a href="#t10:15:23" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods
| - use SNAKE
<a href="#t10:15:27" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods
| - use netinst.iso
<a href="#t10:15:32" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods
| (I *think* I'm comfortable recommending that people use SNAKE.. jlaska?)
<a href="#t10:16:13" class="time">10:16</a>
jlaska
| worksforme :)
<a href="#t10:16:24" class="time">10:16</a>
jlaska
| it's by no means complete ... but it gets the job done 
<a href="#t10:16:31" class="time">10:16</a>
jlaska
| some more needed changes on tap for 0.11 ... but 0.10 should be fine for folks
<a href="#t10:16:49" class="time">10:16</a>
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<a href="#t10:16:52" class="time">10:16</a>
wwoods
| esp. for the very simple case: "I already have Fedora on this machine and want to upgrade"
<a href="#t10:17:09" class="time">10:17</a>
wwoods
| there's also PreUpgrade for that, actually
<a href="#t10:17:26" class="time">10:17</a>
wwoods
| but it's not available yet, so..
<a href="#t10:17:39" class="time">10:17</a>
wwoods
| but yeah, people will ask "huh whuh where'd boot.iso go"
<a href="#t10:18:13" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods
| but booting boot.iso means you still have to download stage2 from the internets
<a href="#t10:18:26" class="time">10:18</a>
f13
| on the plus side, the netinst.iso is useful for more than just today's tree
<a href="#t10:18:32" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods
| also that!
<a href="#t10:18:42" class="time">10:18</a>
f13
| so if you have netinst.iso from yesterday, and no images show up today, you can still use yesterday's to install today's tree
<a href="#t10:18:47" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods
| netinst.iso really is the minimum you need to actually perform an install
<a href="#t10:18:52" class="time">10:18</a>
f13
| it's a lot more useful than boot.iso
<a href="#t10:19:02" class="time">10:19</a>
wwoods
| definitely
<a href="#t10:19:07" class="time">10:19</a>
wwoods
| we really need to see about, y'know, retaining old boot images if buildinstall fails
<a href="#t10:19:41" class="time">10:19</a>
f13
| herm.
<a href="#t10:20:10" class="time">10:20</a>
wwoods
| or think about something along those lines
<a href="#t10:20:18" class="time">10:20</a>
jlaska
| f13: do we have space to keep versioned trees? (e.g. development/20080303, development/20080304) ..
<a href="#t10:20:20" class="time">10:20</a>
dwmw2
| wwoods: for that to be useful, they'd have to work
<a href="#t10:20:22" class="time">10:20</a>
f13
| jlaska: I'd rather not keep versioned trees
<a href="#t10:20:33" class="time">10:20</a>
f13
| jlaska: not on the mirrors.
<a href="#t10:20:37" class="time">10:20</a>
wwoods
| dwmw2: until we have a simple algorithm for detecting works/doesn't work
<a href="#t10:20:52" class="time">10:20</a>
f13
| I think we can cook up something in our rsync calls to avoid removing images/ though
<a href="#t10:20:54" class="time">10:20</a>
wwoods
| we'll have to rely on present/not present
<a href="#t10:20:57" class="time">10:20</a>
jlaska
| f13: the pisser is the trees change out from under us ... and there's no retention of a usable tree
<a href="#t10:21:05" class="time">10:21</a>
dwmw2
| I saw another complaint yesterday that there's no progress bar while downloading stage2 from the internets
<a href="#t10:21:05" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods
| works > present > missing
<a href="#t10:21:06" class="time">10:21</a>
f13
| jlaska: that's why we keep more than one internally where there is more space to be had
<a href="#t10:21:23" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods
| dwmw2: answer: stop downloading stage2 from the internets, sucka
<a href="#t10:21:26" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods
| heh
<a href="#t10:21:27" class="time">10:21</a>
dwmw2
| wwoods: heh
<a href="#t10:21:32" class="time">10:21</a>
f13
| jlaska: we currently may not even have enough space to host the Fedora 9 release on the master mirror.
<a href="#t10:21:36" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods
| jlaska: we've got space for that internally
<a href="#t10:21:55" class="time">10:21</a>
dwmw2
| wwoods: works > present > missing > present-but-KNOWN-not-to-work
<a href="#t10:21:57" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods
| there's also daily trees in koji
<a href="#t10:22:03" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods
| not gonna happen on the mirrors though
<a href="#t10:22:12" class="time">10:22</a>
dwmw2
| don't we _know_ that today's stage1 won't work with tomorrows compose?
<a href="#t10:22:20" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods
| dwmw2: right, which is why we've stopped keeping images that have only stage1 in 'em
<a href="#t10:22:39" class="time">10:22</a>
dwmw2
| iso images. There's still netboot
<a href="#t10:22:57" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods
| now we have the 'stage2=XXX' command in loader
<a href="#t10:23:04" class="time">10:23</a>
wwoods
| so if you've got yesterday's boot images somehow, you should also have yesterday's stage2
<a href="#t10:23:17" class="time">10:23</a>
wwoods
| so now.. you can use yesterday's kernel/stage1/stage2 with today's tree
<a href="#t10:23:32" class="time">10:23</a>
dwmw2
| ok, that helps.
<a href="#t10:23:32" class="time">10:23</a>
jeremy
| dwmw2: since we moved all the kernel modules to be in the initrd (as opposed to split between initrd and second stage), it's been _more_ likely that you can hop trees.  but not guaranteed, especially in rawhide where we could change conventions of calling /usr/bin/anaconda
<a href="#t10:23:48" class="time">10:23</a>
jeremy
| dwmw2: but netinst.iso is one iso to rule them all, blah blah blah.  having kernel + initrd + stage2
<a href="#t10:24:14" class="time">10:24</a>
wwoods
| we could have a serial number in the stage1+stage2 metadata that increments only when incompatible changes are made
<a href="#t10:24:48" class="time">10:24</a>
dwmw2
| hm, did the initrd grow a lot when we did that?
<a href="#t10:24:59" class="time">10:24</a>
wwoods
| right now we have a similar serial number, but it increments whenever the clock ticks
<a href="#t10:25:29" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods
| heh
<a href="#t10:25:33" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods
| so as soon as the clock ticks, a new stage2 will be incompatible with your stage1
<a href="#t10:25:55" class="time">10:25</a>
jeremy
| dwmw2: a bit.  but we did it a while ago
<a href="#t10:26:31" class="time">10:26</a>
wwoods
| anyway - not really necessary for most testing, and that's not a problem we'll solve off the tops of our heads
<a href="#t10:26:32" class="time">10:26</a>
wwoods
| we should make people know about the changes and the reasons for 'em (and the benefits)
<a href="#t10:26:53" class="time">10:26</a>
jeremy
| wwoods: well, given that it's rawhide only and it'd have to be a manual increment...  we just try to avoid things that break it
<a href="#t10:26:54" class="time">10:26</a>
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<a href="#t10:27:47" class="time">10:27</a>
wwoods
| err, make *sure* people know
<a href="#t10:27:51" class="time">10:27</a>
wwoods
| we don't need to force information directly into their brains
<a href="#t10:28:02" class="time">10:28</a>
wwoods
| jeremy: are you planning on doing a summary mail or anything or should I tackle that?
<a href="#t10:28:23" class="time">10:28</a>
jeremy
| wwoods: of what?  the installer stuff?  I've updated the release notes for the beta.  can send something later
<a href="#t10:29:01" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods
| 1) no more boot.iso / diskboot.img,  2) netinst.iso is cool and here's why,  3) stage2=XXX for other purposes
<a href="#t10:29:22" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods
| the unanswered question so far is: how do you make a bootable USB device for installing
<a href="#t10:29:41" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods
| you said there was something like livecd-to-iso in the works for netinst.iso?
<a href="#t10:29:58" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods
| err livecd-to-usb
<a href="#t10:30:08" class="time">10:30</a>
jeremy
| need to make sure some stage2= cases work before we can get anything like that going
<a href="#t10:30:59" class="time">10:30</a>
wwoods
| true
<a href="#t10:31:08" class="time">10:31</a>
wwoods
| I'll be testing that most of today probably
<a href="#t10:31:17" class="time">10:31</a>
wwoods
| especially w.r.t. preupgrade
<a href="#t10:31:28" class="time">10:31</a>
wwoods
| jeremy: I'll cull something from the release notes, mostly for the rawhiders
<a href="#t10:31:50" class="time">10:31</a>
jeremy
| wwoods: *nod*  my blog post should also give some good info
<a href="#t10:32:09" class="time">10:32</a>
wwoods
| need to write a good "how to install rawhide - the easy way" doc anyway
<a href="#t10:32:11" class="time">10:32</a>
* | jeremy has been trying to be active about blogging cool stuff / big changes
<a href="#t10:32:31" class="time">10:32</a>
wwoods
| yeah! it's surprisingly helpful
<a href="#t10:32:46" class="time">10:32</a>
wwoods
| I should do that more
<a href="#t10:32:54" class="time">10:32</a>
wwoods
| okay next topic:
<a href="#t10:33:03" class="time">10:33</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | Changes in testing for F9b
<a href="#t10:33:23" class="time">10:33</a>
wwoods
| so we're going to try to use the new-style Test Plan for F9 Beta
<a href="#t10:33:34" class="time">10:33</a>
f13
| woo!
<a href="#t10:33:39" class="time">10:33</a>
wwoods
| that's <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestPlans/Fedora9Install">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestPlans/Fedora9Install</a>
<a href="#t10:33:57" class="time">10:33</a>
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<a href="#t10:34:17" class="time">10:34</a>
wwoods
| it might need some extra stuff for new features
<a href="#t10:34:43" class="time">10:34</a>
wwoods
| notably encrypted rescue, stage2=, and maybe preupgrade
<a href="#t10:35:04" class="time">10:35</a>
jeremy
| and changes for things like boot.iso going away
<a href="#t10:35:07" class="time">10:35</a>
wwoods
| yeah, still waiting for it to load to see if there's cases that involve that
<a href="#t10:35:27" class="time">10:35</a>
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<a href="#t10:36:19" class="time">10:36</a>
wwoods
| but, yes, cases may have to be modified to accomodate changes in the product.. but that's part of the joy of QA@!#^!
<a href="#t10:36:28" class="time">10:36</a>
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<a href="#t10:36:41" class="time">10:36</a>
wwoods
| jlaska: where's the template page for filling in results?
<a href="#t10:37:16" class="time">10:37</a>
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<a href="#t10:37:36" class="time">10:37</a>
jlaska
| wwoods: installation test plan results ... or other?
<a href="#t10:37:37" class="time">10:37</a>
wwoods
| yeah that.
<a href="#t10:38:01" class="time">10:38</a>
jlaska
| QA/TestResults/TestSummaryTemplate
<a href="#t10:38:23" class="time">10:38</a>
jlaska
| any test case changes will need to be made there as well as in the test plan itself 
<a href="#t10:38:38" class="time">10:38</a>
jlaska
| but I've been good with my wiki watch list
<a href="#t10:38:47" class="time">10:38</a>
wwoods
| sweet. OK, we'll instantiate a page from that template for F9Beta
<a href="#t10:39:28" class="time">10:39</a>
wwoods
| (after making the needed changes to the plan)
<a href="#t10:39:45" class="time">10:39</a>
f13
| rock
<a href="#t10:40:09" class="time">10:40</a>
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<a href="#t10:40:47" class="time">10:40</a>
wwoods
| that leads us nicely into the last topic
<a href="#t10:41:30" class="time">10:41</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | Discussion: create a Fedora Release Test Team
<a href="#t10:41:41" class="time">10:41</a>
wwoods
| we definitely want more people testing
<a href="#t10:42:10" class="time">10:42</a>
wwoods
| and more importantly to me: it's hard for me to get work done on tools and plans and stuff when I have to spend most of my time testing the product
<a href="#t10:42:37" class="time">10:42</a>
wwoods
| so! as with BugZappers, organizing a Release Team under QA would make life better for everyone
<a href="#t10:43:05" class="time">10:43</a>
wwoods
| so here's the questions: 1) what do we require from the team members, and 2) what do we provide them with?
<a href="#t10:43:28" class="time">10:43</a>
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<a href="#t10:43:34" class="time">10:43</a>
wwoods
| this is targeted to installer testing, but it can expand beyond that later. kind of like the QA/TestPlans stuff
<a href="#t10:44:15" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods
| so, obviously we want FRTT (heh) members to sign the CLA etc, so they can edit the wiki (and fill in their results)
<a href="#t10:44:52" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods
| probably I'll want to create a RTT FAS group so we can give people edit access to non-wiki things
<a href="#t10:45:19" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods
| like the rawhide dashboard page
<a href="#t10:45:23" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods
| and someday the test tracker stuff, if we get it off the wiki
<a href="#t10:45:38" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods
| Also I want to have a list of, y'know, Official Release Team Members somewhere
<a href="#t10:45:58" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods
| good to give people recognition for all the work they do
<a href="#t10:46:07" class="time">10:46</a>
wwoods
| (also maybe this will free up time for me to work on the metrics/scorekeeping)
<a href="#t10:46:23" class="time">10:46</a>
wwoods
| are there other requirements, like "you have to attend X meetings per month" or "you have to contribute during alpha/beta testing"
<a href="#t10:47:03" class="time">10:47</a>
wwoods
| and are there other things we can offer testers (free stuff, access to private mirrors, ..?)
<a href="#t10:47:25" class="time">10:47</a>
wwoods
| I'll take that as a round of shrugs
<a href="#t10:49:30" class="time">10:49</a>
wwoods
| Give it some thought, if anything occurs to you let me know.. In the meantime I'll see about how you set up groups and stuff
<a href="#t10:50:23" class="time">10:50</a>
* | wwoods wants to make big shiny Rawhider badges
<a href="#t10:50:44" class="time">10:50</a>
wwoods
| heh
<a href="#t10:50:44" class="time">10:50</a>
wwoods
| okay that's all from me. any other topics we'd like to discuss?
<a href="#t10:50:56" class="time">10:50</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | misc
<a href="#t10:51:00" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods
| gah I forgot we're doing CD sets again
<a href="#t10:51:37" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods
| gotta order a spindle or two
<a href="#t10:51:45" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods
| okay then, meeting ending in 60 secs
<a href="#t10:53:27" class="time">10:53</a>
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<a href="#t10:53:57" class="time">10:53</a>
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<a href="#t10:54:12" class="time">10:54</a>
jlaska
| tick tock tick tock
<a href="#t10:54:56" class="time">10:54</a>
jlaska
| ;)
<a href="#t10:54:59" class="time">10:54</a>
wwoods
| Thanks folks!
<a href="#t10:55:05" class="time">10:55</a>
f13
| woo
<a href="#t10:55:12" class="time">10:55</a>
--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel</a> for meeting schedule
<a href="#t10:55:27" class="time">10:55</a>



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