QA/Meetings/20121008

Agenda

• Previous meeting follow-up
• Release criteria proposals
• Fedora 18 Beta status / mini blocker review
• Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

• adamw to propose a criterion covering basic (not advanced) re-use of /home for Beta - not done yet, sorry
• adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion - not done yet
• tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team,fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down - not done yet

Release criteria proposals

• Proposed changes to the upgrade criteria for Beta and Final were accepted (see log for exact text)

Fedora 18 Beta status / mini blocker review

• Agreed that we recommended slipping of freeze due to no currently testable upgrade tool for F18
• Outside of the upgrade tool, install w/ RAID and/or LUKS was another potential issue that needs re-testing

Open floor

N/A

Action items

• adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion
• tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team,fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down

IRC Log

tflink	#startmeeting fedora-qa	15:02
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Oct 8 15:02:00 2012 UTC. The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	15:02
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	15:02
tflink	#meetingname fedora-qa	15:02
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	15:02
tflink	#topic Roll Call	15:02
tflink	#chair kparal	15:02
zodbot	Current chairs: kparal tflink	15:02
* Martix is here		15:02
* pschindl is here		15:02
* satellit listening		15:02
kparal	oh, so it's here again	15:02
tflink	kparal: the meeting? Did I start in the wrong channel?	15:03
* mkrizek is here		15:03
joat	here	15:03
* kparal is confused by channel changes		15:03
* spoore is listening...or trying to..may have to read log later		15:03
kparal	tflink: I don't really know, sometimes it's here and sometimes it's in fedora-qa	15:03
kparal	maybe blocker bug meetings are in #fedora-qa? I don't know	15:03
* Viking-Ice runs for a cup of coffee		15:04
* kparal thinks #fedora-meeting is better anyway		15:04
Martix	kparal: only blocker one	15:04
tflink	kparal: I think it's mostly in here. the blocker review meeting is in fedora-qa, though	15:04
* jskladan hides in the shadows		15:04
* kparal kicks jskladan		15:04
* jreznik is here		15:05
tflink	well, it sounds like most everyone is here, let's get started	15:05
tflink	#topic Agenda	15:06
tflink	#info Previous Meeting Follow-up	15:06
tflink	#info Release Criteria Proposals	15:06
tflink	#info F18 Beta Status	15:06
tflink	#info F18 Beta Mini Blocker Review	15:07
tflink	#info Open Floor	15:07
tflink	#topic Previous Meeting Follow-Up	15:07
tflink	"adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion" - not yet done	15:08
tflink	at least I don't think it was done - did I miss a thread somewhere?	15:08
kparal	I haven't seen it either	15:09
Viking-Ice	neither has I	15:09
Martix	adamw: we are looking at you	15:09
tflink	ok, we can just put it down again for next week unless someone else wants to take it	15:09
tflink	Martix: he's on vacation today	15:10
tflink	adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion	15:10
tflink	#action adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion	15:10
Martix	tflink: I know, but adamw is also responding on #fedora-qa ;-)	15:10
tflink	tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team,fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down	15:10
tflink	aand fail on my part	15:10
tflink	I wrote the email as a draft and forgot to actually send it out	15:11
tflink	I'll make sure it's updated with the most recent threads on test@ and send it out today	15:11
tflink	#action tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team,fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down	15:11
tflink	I do believe that's all the things to follow up on	15:12
tflink	did I miss anything?	15:12
* tflink takes that as a no		15:12
Viking-Ice	well arguably anything of that stuff to be dialed down should not take effect until next release cycle	15:13
tflink	Viking-Ice: I see your point but that seems a bit harsh since we've been changing a bunch of stuff	15:13
adamw	Martix: i'm not here!	15:14
kparal	zombies talking	15:14
Martix	adamw: alright	15:14
Viking-Ice	tflink, it's one thing adjusting the criteria for dropped functionality and completely another thing to tone it down to cater to bugs that wont be fixed in time	15:15
tflink	Viking-Ice: if we write and attempt to enforce unreasonable release requirements, we're going to be on the path towards irrelevency, I think	15:16
Viking-Ice	as things stand now we have ca 25 bugs that are filed against anaconda that are either proposed blocker bugs or blocker bugs and adjusting the criteria does not fix the sorry state the installer is in	15:16
* tflink is of the opinion that it's a game of compromise		15:16
adamw	the not-here zombie notes that this is a complete side alley since we actually have no proposals to weaken any criteria.	15:17
Viking-Ice	and to me delaying the release to have these fixed ( without altering our criteria ) is better then adjust the criteria to meet some release date which we have never been able to meet anyway	15:17
Martix	when do you realise that we should drop newUI? and revert to last commit before newUI merge into Anaconda master :-P	15:17
Viking-Ice	it's too late in the game to drop it	15:18
tflink	I think we're getting really far off into the weeds here	15:18
Viking-Ice	which means we only slip from here on	15:18
Viking-Ice	and to me it's perfectly fine to slip	15:18
* tflink apologizes for the delay, didn't realize he would be leading until ~ 15 minutes before the meeting		15:18
Martix	12/25 release date workforme	15:18
tflink	#topic Release Criteria Proposals	15:18
Viking-Ice	worst case scenario santa deliver Fedora this Christmas ;)	15:19
tflink	#undo	15:19
zodbot	Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x11064c50>	15:19
tflink	#topic Upgrade Release Criterion Proposal	15:19
tflink	The last proposal I'm seeing is:	15:19
tflink	For each one of the release-blocking package sets ('minimal', and the package sets for each one of the release-blocking desktops), it must be possible to successfully complete an upgrade from a fully updated installation of the previous stable Fedora release with that package set installed, using any officially recommended upgrade mechanism. The upgraded system must meet all release criteria	15:19
tflink	that one would be for final	15:19
tflink	nvm, that's beta	15:19
tflink	the only difference is swapping any/all	15:20
* kparal acks		15:20
Viking-Ice	ack	15:20
Martix	"setenforce 0 && yum distro-sync" would be officially recommended ;-)	15:20
tflink	proposed #agreed QA accepts the criteria revision posted at xx:19 for beta	15:21
Martix	ack	15:21
tflink	Martix: you're not helping, we don't decide the recommended upgrade methods	15:21
Martix	tflink: just sidenote	15:22
tflink	sounds like we're pretty much agreed	15:22
tflink	#agreed QA accepts the criteria revision posted at xx:19 for beta	15:22
tflink	and for formality/boilerplate ...	15:22
tflink	Proposed final criterion:	15:22
tflink	For each one of the release-blocking package sets ('minimal', and the package sets for each one of the release-blocking desktops), it must be possible to successfully complete an upgrade from a fully updated installation of the previous stable Fedora release with that package set installed, using all officially recommended upgrade mechanisms. The upgraded system must meet all release criteria.	15:23
tflink	proposed #agreed QA accepts the proposed upgrade criterion listed at XX:23 for F18 Final	15:23
kparal	ack	15:24
Martix	ack	15:24
jskladan	ack	15:24
tflink	#agreed QA accepts the proposed upgrade criterion listed at XX:23 for F18 Final	15:25
tflink	I think that was all of the changes since last week	15:25
tflink	unless I'm missing one in the partitioning thread	15:25
tflink	#topic F18 Beta Status	15:26
tflink	#info F18 Beta Freeze Entrance Readiness Meeting today @ 17:00 UTC	15:27
kparal	so the upgrade tool is still nowhere to be seen	15:28
Viking-Ice	yup so not freeze ready	15:28
* kparal wasn't exactly implying that		15:29
tflink	what are our reasons for saying that we don't think beta is ready for freeze (assuming that's pretty much the consensus here)?	15:29
tflink	the two that I can think of is the number of anaconda bugs around partitioning and the lack of a release for the upgrade tool	15:29
Viking-Ice	yu&#240;	15:29
Viking-Ice	mean yup	15:29
cmurf	Is LVM, LUKS and RAID required for Beta? If not, purportedly in Beta TC2 those aren't available.	15:29
tflink	cmurf: I think that was put off to final	15:30
Viking-Ice	if they aren't they should be	15:30
tflink	but I'm not 100% sure	15:30
adamw	not-here zombie pop-up: we did not entirely decide it	15:30
kparal	Creating encrypted partitions is in Beta	15:30
adamw	we agreed that the criteria put into place last week were the *minimum* we needed	15:30
kparal	raid is also mentioned in Beta criteria (still)	15:31
adamw	oh yeah, we have an explicit criterion for raid	15:31
adamw	so that's clear	15:31
tflink	did I miss a discussion around the partitioning criteria?	15:31
adamw	lvm is the grey area.	15:31
Viking-Ice	this things must be working if upgrade is required to work	15:31
Viking-Ice	this/these	15:31
kparal	we know that there are bugs. I'm not sure that means we can't enter Beta freeze	15:32
tflink	oh, that's a wrinkle that I hadn't thought about	15:32
tflink	F17 default install used LVM	15:32
cmurf	In beta release, LVM is only mentioned for the installer rescue mode so creating them doesn't appear required. For beta.	15:32
kparal	but we definitely still haven't seen the upgrade tool	15:32
tflink	how well is upgrade going to work w/ LVM?	15:32
cmurf	tflink: my understanding is that there won't be LVM by default. Either it's ext4 on separate partitions, or btrfs plus subvols.	15:32
cmurf	tflink: I don't know, but I'd like to think that's expected to work or it's a problem.	15:33
tflink	cmurf: for F18+, sure. I'm concerned about upgrades from F17	15:33
tflink	so, the things that we're concerned about are:	15:33
Viking-Ice	yes but the upgrade path must support LVM since LVM was the default before F18	15:33
tflink	1. We aren't aware of a release for the upgrade tool	15:33
tflink	the other one was mostly RAID, no?	15:34
kparal	I never tested that	15:35
cmurf	beta release criteria 11: installer must be able to create and install to software, hardware or BIOS RAID-0, RAID-1 or RAID-5, except for /boot	15:35
cmurf	I'm not seeing it in the ui	15:35
tflink	kparal: yeah, neither have I. looks like I know what I'm doing in the next hour or so :)	15:36
* satellit note "disks" on live desktop CD cannot reformat a previous f18 install to HD - anaconda cannot do this from Beta TC2 netinstall either (just tested it)		15:36
cmurf	but i could be confused	15:36
adamw	iirc it's not expressed as RAID exactly, but there are checkboxes for 'redundancy' or something like that. it's in custom part.	15:36
tflink	satellit: yeah, I think that one's known. there was a new anaconda build on friday but it had more issues and a new TC wasn't built	15:36
satellit	ok	15:36
tflink	is there any reason to be concerned about the functionality of the partitioning UI (outside of RAID) to the point that freeze might not be wise?	15:37
cmurf	is the intention of beta release criteria 11 to mean that the creation of software RAID 5 is required for / or /home?	15:38
tflink	cmurf: I believe so, yes	15:38
cmurf	interesting.	15:39
cmurf	ok about freeze, i felt that alpha freeze came too soon expecially for anaconda.	15:40
jreznik	ok, wwoods seems to be still working on fedupg - that means no release	15:40
cmurf	is there an opinion from the anaconda team on freeze status for beta?	15:40
jreznik	cmurf: yep and that's the reason for this special meeting	15:40
tflink	is there an interest in coming up with a recommendation from QA for freeze readiness?	15:40
jreznik	tflink: it would be great if qa could do it	15:40
Viking-Ice	jreznik, that and the the share number of bugs against Anaconda that either are blocking or proposed as blocking should be sufficiant to raise the alarms and slip ;)	15:40
kparal	I believe QA should get a chance to play with the upgrade tool before entering the freeze	15:41
kparal	that would be my proposal	15:41
cmurf	jreznik: yes i know that, my question is if the anaconda team has an opinion on freeze causing them more work that's unnecessary/not helpful	15:41
adamw	not-here zombie is also for slipping the freeze, on fedup grounds.	15:42
jreznik	kparal: not "play" but it should be released as a real release - packaged etc.	15:42
tflink	ok, sounds like we're pretty much pro-freeze slip	15:42
* tflink got a phone call		15:42
Martix	we are still waiting for fedup, we should slip freeze and poke Anaconda and fedup developers	15:42
tflink	proposed #agreed QA Recommends slipping of freeze at this time due to no currently testable upgrade tool for F18	15:43
jreznik	Martix: already doing - the poking stuff	15:43
Viking-Ice	We must be able to evaluate the readiness of the upgrade tool before we freeze and to do so it must be present :)	15:43
kparal	ack	15:43
Viking-Ice	ack	15:43
* tflink wants more than 2 acks before doing the #agreed		15:44
mkrizek	ack	15:44
Martix	ack	15:44
Southern_Gentlem	ack	15:44
tflink	#agreed QA Recommends slipping of freeze at this time due to no currently testable upgrade tool for F18	15:45
Martix	jreznik: we should start kicking in their arses! :-)	15:45
jreznik	is qa going to talk also about part. requirements or thinks missing upgrade tool is enough?	15:46
jwb	Martix, please refrain from using language like that.	15:46
Martix	jwb: ok, my appologize	15:46
pjones	Martix: I don't think that will make things more likely to go a way you're happy with.	15:46
jreznik	Martix: no, please - what we need is to explain what we need/require	15:46
tflink	any thoughts on the partitioning requirements?	15:47
Martix	jreznik: ok: testable fedup, abbility to remove partitions in Anaconda, abbility to upgrade on LVM/LUKS/RAID	15:47
tflink	ability to install w/ RAID	15:48
Martix	abbility to create LUKS partitions	15:48
tflink	but I can't remember off the top of my head whether that funtionality already exists	15:48
tflink	and I'm not convinced that the current issue of anaconda not doing well at removing existing partitions is enought to justify slipping freeze	15:49
tflink	so other than the missing upgrade tool (which I do think is enough to justify slipping freeze, personally)	15:49
jreznik	tflink: so could you guys please retest? if functionality exists before mtg? or maybe better to ask anaconda guys directly :)	15:49
tflink	jreznik: I'm planning to do so	15:49
tflink	the potentially problematic areas (pending re-test) as I see them are:	15:50
tflink	LUKS and RAID	15:50
jreznik	fedup should be testable by the enf of the week	15:51
cmurf	It's a bit awkward having RAID in custom partitioning, but perhaps that's a squawk for F19. RAID != partitioning.	15:51
Viking-Ice	it belongs in the advanced storage spoke	15:52
tflink	proposed #agreed outside of the upgrade tool, install w/ RAID and/or LUKS is another potential issue that needs re-testing	15:52
kparal	ack	15:52
* kparal is testing LUKS now		15:52
* tflink will test RAID right after the meeting		15:53
Martix	jreznik: deja vu	15:53
* tflink demands more ack/nak/patch !!!		15:53
Viking-Ice	ack	15:53
* satellit yum installed gparted to desktop live added msdos partition table will retry TC2 Netinstall on the HD		15:53
cmurf	i'm testing it now and my biggest issue is UI confusion honestly	15:53
kparal	luks fails, it doesn't ask for password and creates a standard unencrypted partition	15:54
cmurf	it = RAID	15:54
kparal	at least it seems so	15:54
tflink	keep in mind that we aren't asking everything to _work_ 100% for freeze entrance	15:54
kparal	yep	15:54
tflink	just that the functionality is testable and somewhat present	15:54
cmurf	sure. is the testing to be based on TC2?	15:54
tflink	so if LUKS isn't quite working but at least somewhat works - it's OK for freeze entrance	15:55
tflink	same with RAID	15:55
* satellit looks like it worked (gparted on live desktop)		15:56
tflink	so ... any more votes on the proposal?	15:56
Martix	tflink: ack	15:56
cmurf	ack	15:56
tflink	proposed #agreed outside of the upgrade tool, install w/ RAID and/or LUKS is another potential issue that needs re-testing. We will retest these things before the freeze entrance readiness meeting.	15:57
tflink	since the change isn't big, I assume that all the acks hold	15:57
tflink	#agreed outside of the upgrade tool, install w/ RAID and/or LUKS is another potential issue that needs re-testing. We will retest these things before the freeze entrance readiness meeting.	15:57
jreznik	well, does "it doesn't ask for password and creates a standard unencrypted partition" - means it somehow works or not at all? ;-)	15:57
tflink	jreznik: do we know if the code exists?	15:57
* kparal just reported https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=864120, logs will follow shortly		15:58
kparal	jreznik: not at all, currently, it seems	15:58
jreznik	kparal: thx	15:58
tflink	anything else about beta?	15:59
tflink	if not, I propose that we skip the blocker review for today so that we can get a bit more testing done before the meeting (in ~ 1 hour)	16:00
kparal	ack	16:00
tflink	it's interesting to see people trail off as meetings go on :)	16:01
tflink	anyhow, I assume that there are no objections	16:01
Viking-Ice	I actually would like us to go through the proposed blocker bugs against anaconda	16:01
tflink	Viking-Ice: I don't disagree but it's difficult to do blocker review and RAID test @ the same time	16:02
jreznik	Viking-Ice: good idea, to have a better overview before the meeting	16:02
jreznik	but yeah, manpower	16:02
Martix	Viking-Ice: ack	16:02
tflink	jreznik: you don't get it both ways - either testing of blocker review	16:02
tflink	s/of/or	16:02
tflink	unless someone else is going to do lead the blocker review or do the RAID testing	16:02
jreznik	maybe if someone will be willing to go through the testing and the rest could do blocker review	16:03
tflink	I can't do both at the same time	16:03
Viking-Ice	is the RAID code supposed to be in place and working in Anaconda ?	16:03
jreznik	tflink: not asking you to do both :) you're already the hero!	16:03
tflink	Viking-Ice: I have no idea, that's what I wanted to find out	16:03
jreznik	Viking-Ice: asking on #anaconda right now	16:03
tflink	i/we/other pronoun	16:03
jreznik	"raid support has been in since the first post-alpha tree"	16:03
Viking-Ice	ah so it's just broken ;)	16:04
Martix	jreznik: what about LUKS?	16:04
tflink	maybe, I just don't think anyone's tested it yet	16:04
cmurf	what's the time frame for TC3?	16:04
tflink	Martix: patches were posted on thursday	16:05
tflink	cmurf: when we get another anaconda build, I think	16:05
jreznik	well, ok - let's give qa time to test if raid is there, I'll go through the anaconda list bugs to get an overview for mtg	16:05
jreznik	Martix: patches posted for luks	16:05
Martix	great	16:06
cmurf	RAID is in beta TC2	16:06
cmurf	It's md raid for all file systems except btrfs which does its own raid0/1/10 but not 5 (yet) and there isn't an option to use md raid 5 for btrfs.	16:07
tflink	cmurf: it works, I assume?	16:07
cmurf	testing	16:07
tflink	cmurf: I don't believe that there is GUI support for btrfs yet	16:08
tflink	but I could be wrong	16:08
cmurf	there is support for btrfs	16:08
cmurf	it even uses subvols for root and home	16:08
cmurf	if i use a single disk only, anaconda crashes when changing Device Type to RAID. So I think someting is hooked up to cause that.	16:09
tflink	cmurf: are you testing w/ multiple disks?	16:09
cmurf	about to but figured i'd see what happens with one first	16:10
tflink	do we still have enough people to do blocker review, then?	16:11
cmurf	ok so the parameters are two disks, and RAID 1 for everything	16:11
tflink	I take that as a no, we don't have enough people	16:12
Martix	we have	16:12
cmurf	UI is present	16:12
cmurf	but i get anaconda crashes	16:12
Martix	me too	16:12
cmurf	so i think those need to be isolated, see if there are bugs already filed, if not file bugs because these would appear to be beta blocker bugs	16:13
cmurf	but not freeze inhibiting bugs	16:14
tflink	either way, it looks like we have no real grounds to block freeze for RAID	16:14
cmurf	agreed	16:14
tflink	and not much for LUKS	16:14
cmurf	agreed	16:14
cmurf	ui is present	16:14
Martix	cmurf: you didn't heard about cat-o-9 rule proposed by tflink?	16:14
cmurf	?	16:14
tflink	Martix: that was for during blocker review meetings	16:14
tflink	and specifically aimed at you :-P	16:14
Martix	which is right now ;-)	16:14
tflink	it is?	16:15
cmurf	what is the cat-o-9 rule	16:15
tflink	cmurf: anyone who makes huge changes to the blocker list in the middle of a review meeting gets flogged :)	16:15
kparal	Martix: good that you remember	16:16
cmurf	tflink: that required a rule?	16:16
tflink	cmurf: apparently, yes	16:16
cmurf	sad	16:16
tflink	anyhow, since it looks like enough testing has been done for RAID and LUKS for pre-freeze, shall we go through the blocker bugs quickly?	16:17
jreznik	tflink: ok, this means - luks/raid support is on-going, no need to block freeze but upgrades... do I understand it correctly?	16:18
tflink	jreznik: yeah, that's what it looks like right now	16:18
jreznik	tflink: thanks guys!	16:18
tflink	but I think we're pretty firm on not entering freeze w/o a testable upgrade tool	16:19
Viking-Ice	tflink, we probably should move the blocker bug process into QA	16:19
* jreznik is ok with quick blocker bugs review now		16:19
cmurf	tflink: so if you're talking beta blocker, the RAID bugs will eventually be blockers. I'm not seeing bugs file for the bugs I'm encountering.	16:19
Martix	jreznik: make sure that fedup release in the end of week will support existing LVM/LUKS/RAID setups	16:19
tflink	Viking-Ice: not sure I understand what you mean	16:19
tflink	cmurf: if the code is present and testable, that should be enough for freeze entrance - we aren't looking to have a beta-ready release before we enter freeze	16:20
cmurf	"shall we go through the blocker bugs quickly" are you referring to beta blocking, or freeze?	16:20
tflink	cmurf: just the currently proposed blockers	16:21
cmurf	goti t	16:21
cmurf	it'll take me a while to write these up, need to reproduce them consistently	16:21
tflink	I really don't think we're going to get through the proposed blockers in 40 minutes	16:21
Martix	just anaconda	16:22
tflink	and I fail to see much of a point in doing this just for the freeze-entrance meeting	16:22
Martix	only 15-16 bugs :-)	16:22
Viking-Ice	true	16:22
Viking-Ice	tflink, I was proposing moving the blocker review process to the QA channel ( as opposed to be doing it here )	16:23
cmurf	would anyone mind telling me where anaconda logs are now kept? they're not in ~ or /var/log when booted off netinstall	16:23
Viking-Ice	and if we start with the Anaconda bugs we might be done with them before the topic comes up at the fesco meeting	16:23
kparal	cmurf: /tmp	16:23
Viking-Ice	cmurf, /tmp	16:23
tflink	cmurf: the logs are persisted on shutdown of the installer - if you get a crash, they won't be written to disk	16:24
cmurf	oops that's not new.	16:24
tflink	I assume that's what you were asking	16:24
tflink	at least I don't think they will	16:24
cmurf	recurring temporary confusion	16:24
Viking-Ice	the journal should pick it up	16:24
tflink	OK, lets adjurn and regroup in #fedora-qa for blocker review awesome fun happy time	16:24
tflink	#info Blocker Review will start immediately after this meeting in #fedora-qa	16:25
tflink	#topic Open Floor	16:25
tflink	Is there anything else that absolutely needs to be brought up now?	16:25
Viking-Ice	not from me	16:25
tflink	Then I think that we're done here for now	16:26
tflink	Thanks for coming, everyone!	16:26
tflink	#endmeeting	16:26

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