QA/Meetings/20130211

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= Attendees =
 
= Attendees =
 +
 +
* tflink (131)
 +
* Viking-Ice (49)
 +
* kparal (23)
 +
* dan408- (15)
 +
* nirik (8)
 +
* zodbot (6)
 +
* satellit (6)
 +
* misc (2)
 +
* jsmith (2)
 +
* jskladan (1)
 +
* akshayvyas (1)
 +
* pschindl (1)
  
 
= Agenda =
 
= Agenda =
* Criteria revision
+
* Previous Meeting Followup
 +
* Criteria Presentation Revision
 
* Fedora 19 Test Days
 
* Fedora 19 Test Days
* Retrospective review
+
* Retrospective Review
* Open floor
+
* Open Floor
  
== Criteria revision ==
+
== Previous Meeting Followup ==
 +
* adamw to draft up a proposal for revising the presentation of the release criteria
 +
** Work has been started on revising the presentation of the release criteria, not ready for proposal yet
 +
** Topic for discussion later in meeting
 +
* adamw to draft up a kickstart criterion for f19
 +
** Has not been done
 +
 
 +
== Criteria Presentation Revision ==
 
* Check-in on what crazy plans adamw and tflink have come up with
 
* Check-in on what crazy plans adamw and tflink have come up with
 +
** [[User:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox|Work In Progress]]
 +
** [http://tflink.fedorapeople.org/criteria_display/ Unfinished Proof-of-Concept for out-of-wiki Criteria display]
 +
*** One large concern about moving the criteria display out of the wiki is the amount of work required to make it happen for F19
 +
** Proposal will be sent to test list when it's ready
  
 
== Fedora 19 Test Days ==
 
== Fedora 19 Test Days ==
 
* We need to kick off the F19 Test Day cycle - who wants to own it? Ideas for Test Days?
 
* We need to kick off the F19 Test Day cycle - who wants to own it? Ideas for Test Days?
 +
** No volunteers to own the F19 test day cycle
 +
* Viking-Ice stated that he plans to host an iscsi test day for F19 (date TBD)
  
 
== Retrospective review ==
 
== Retrospective review ==
 
* Let's take a look through the [[Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective]] to see if anything jumps out
 
* Let's take a look through the [[Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective]] to see if anything jumps out
 +
** Nothing constructive added
 +
** Please add constructive thoughts to the retrospective
 +
* Viking-Ice requested discussion about the blocker review process (tabled to another meeting)
  
 
== Open floor ==
 
== Open floor ==
  
 
== IRC Log ==
 
== IRC Log ==
 +
{|
 +
|- id="t16:01:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
 +
|| [[#t16:01:02|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | Meeting started Mon Feb 11 16:01:02 2013 UTC.  The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 +
|| [[#t16:01:02|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
 +
|| [[#t16:01:02|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #meetingname fedora-qa
 +
|| [[#t16:01:07|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
 +
|| [[#t16:01:07|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:13"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Roll Call
 +
|| [[#t16:01:13|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #chair kparal
 +
|| [[#t16:01:34|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:01:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | Current chairs: kparal tflink
 +
|| [[#t16:01:34|16:01]]
 +
|- id="t16:02:18"
 +
| colspan="2" | * kparal waves
 +
|| [[#t16:02:18|16:02]]
 +
|- id="t16:02:23"
 +
| colspan="2" | * satellit listening
 +
|| [[#t16:02:23|16:02]]
 +
|- id="t16:02:29"
 +
| colspan="2" | * jskladan tips his hat
 +
|| [[#t16:02:29|16:02]]
 +
|- id="t16:03:01"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | im not here
 +
|| [[#t16:03:01|16:03]]
 +
|- id="t16:03:10"
 +
| colspan="2" | * kparal nudges pschindl
 +
|| [[#t16:03:10|16:03]]
 +
|- id="t16:04:22"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink waits another minute before getting things started
 +
|| [[#t16:04:22|16:04]]
 +
|- id="t16:05:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | bit of a small group today but let's get started
 +
|| [[#t16:05:40|16:05]]
 +
|- id="t16:05:56"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | no adamw?
 +
|| [[#t16:05:56|16:05]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:13"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | holiday in canada
 +
|| [[#t16:06:13|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:21"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | snowboarding holiday
 +
|| [[#t16:06:21|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:25"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | adamw is slacking off
 +
|| [[#t16:06:25|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:27"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | okay continue please
 +
|| [[#t16:06:27|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | and a public holiday, but either way
 +
|| [[#t16:06:34|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:06:45"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Previous Meeting Followup
 +
|| [[#t16:06:45|16:06]]
 +
|- id="t16:07:06"
 +
| colspan="2" | * pschindl is here
 +
|| [[#t16:07:06|16:07]]
 +
|- id="t16:07:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info adamw to draft up a proposal for revising the presentation of the release criteria
 +
|| [[#t16:07:40|16:07]]
 +
|- id="t16:08:11"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info adamw has been working on the release criteria presentation, no proposal has been sent out yet. will be covered later in meeting
 +
|| [[#t16:08:11|16:08]]
 +
|- id="t16:08:41"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info adamw to draft up a kickstart criterion for f19
 +
|| [[#t16:08:41|16:08]]
 +
|- id="t16:08:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I don't think this was done, either
 +
|| [[#t16:08:47|16:08]]
 +
|- id="t16:09:25"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | did I miss something?
 +
|| [[#t16:09:25|16:09]]
 +
|- id="t16:09:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | nope
 +
|| [[#t16:09:32|16:09]]
 +
|- id="t16:09:33"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | +1
 +
|| [[#t16:09:33|16:09]]
 +
|- id="t16:10:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info this hasn't been done yet
 +
|| [[#t16:10:02|16:10]]
 +
|- id="t16:10:39"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | anything else from meeting followup?
 +
|| [[#t16:10:39|16:10]]
 +
|- id="t16:10:48"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I don't see anything from the minutes
 +
|| [[#t16:10:48|16:10]]
 +
|- id="t16:11:29"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink assumes silence == nothing else
 +
|| [[#t16:11:29|16:11]]
 +
|- id="t16:11:43"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Criteria Revision
 +
|| [[#t16:11:43|16:11]]
 +
|- id="t16:12:02"
 +
| colspan="2" | * Viking-Ice joins in
 +
|| [[#t16:12:02|16:12]]
 +
|- id="t16:12:11"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | hello Viking-Ice
 +
|| [[#t16:12:11|16:12]]
 +
|- id="t16:12:12"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | We started the conversation a bit last week, but it sounded like there was general agreement that the presentation of the release criteria could be improved
 +
|| [[#t16:12:12|16:12]]
 +
|- id="t16:12:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info adamw has been working on a draft update to the presentation of the release criteria
 +
|| [[#t16:12:51|16:12]]
 +
|- id="t16:13:00"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox
 +
|| [[#t16:13:00|16:13]]
 +
|- id="t16:13:38"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | interesting
 +
|| [[#t16:13:38|16:13]]
 +
|- id="t16:13:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I don't think that he's done yet but it shows a re-thinking of the current presentation
 +
|| [[#t16:13:51|16:13]]
 +
|- id="t16:13:54"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | where can we make suggestions here?
 +
|| [[#t16:13:54|16:13]]
 +
|- id="t16:14:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | dan408-: test list
 +
|| [[#t16:14:07|16:14]]
 +
|- id="t16:14:12"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | dan408-: test@
 +
|| [[#t16:14:12|16:14]]
 +
|- id="t16:14:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | it turns out that figuring out how to present the information is not an easy problem
 +
|| [[#t16:14:32|16:14]]
 +
|- id="t16:14:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | sigh
 +
|| [[#t16:14:34|16:14]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:00"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | one thought that I had was to take the criteria out of the wiki so that we aren't restricted by wiki formatting
 +
|| [[#t16:15:00|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:20"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | there's nothing wrong with the wiki
 +
|| [[#t16:15:20|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:26"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | maybe we can use talk?
 +
|| [[#t16:15:26|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:31"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | test is way too busty
 +
|| [[#t16:15:31|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:37"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | i dont even pay attention to it
 +
|| [[#t16:15:37|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:38"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, yeah if we can put it on the qa criteria page you are working on
 +
|| [[#t16:15:38|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:52"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1
 +
|| [[#t16:15:52|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:15:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I took a snapshot of what adamw was working on, translated it to rst and generated a really basic proof-of-concept
 +
|| [[#t16:15:59|16:15]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:03"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | I dont think nesting this is a way to go as adam is doing there
 +
|| [[#t16:16:03|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:18"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info tflink made a proof-of-concept of taking the release criteria out of the wiki
 +
|| [[#t16:16:18|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:26"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #link http://tflink.fedorapeople.org/criteria_display/
 +
|| [[#t16:16:26|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I haven't done _any_ theming or admonition work yet
 +
|| [[#t16:16:35|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:37"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | since it requires the user to perform additional click to get that information
 +
|| [[#t16:16:37|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:41"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | so the layout is really rough
 +
|| [[#t16:16:41|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:16:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #818144" | dan408-
 +
| style="color: #818144" | this is prettier..
 +
|| [[#t16:16:59|16:16]]
 +
|- id="t16:17:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but my thought is that it would allow for easier integration with the blocker proposal app, would give us _much_ more flexibility in presentation and wouldn't make it too much more difficult for people to contribute to the criteria writing
 +
|| [[#t16:17:34|16:17]]
 +
|- id="t16:17:43"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | I have some comments about it, but I think this would be best discussed on the list
 +
|| [[#t16:17:43|16:17]]
 +
|- id="t16:18:03"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | should really that many people be editing the criteria
 +
|| [[#t16:18:03|16:18]]
 +
|- id="t16:18:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | the whole thing would live in a git repository, criteria revisions could be discussed like code reviews and the static html would be generated automatically on push to git master
 +
|| [[#t16:18:32|16:18]]
 +
|- id="t16:18:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, your page is better presented then what adam has been working on
 +
|| [[#t16:18:35|16:18]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:00"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | the question becomes how long it would take to translate everything
 +
|| [[#t16:19:00|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:16"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | should it really be translated ?
 +
|| [[#t16:19:16|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:21"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but either way, we need to figure out how to present the information
 +
|| [[#t16:19:21|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:30"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: translation from mediawiki to rst
 +
|| [[#t16:19:30|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | poor choice of words on my part, sorry
 +
|| [[#t16:19:40|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:19:49"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | ok took it as language translation
 +
|| [[#t16:19:49|16:19]]
 +
|- id="t16:20:05"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | yeah, I should have phrased it differently
 +
|| [[#t16:20:05|16:20]]
 +
|- id="t16:20:18"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | one thought was to talk with the design team about how to present the information
 +
|| [[#t16:20:18|16:20]]
 +
|- id="t16:21:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | I don't think we need the design team for everything. this page should be mainly useful for us, because general users/testers won't read it anyway
 +
|| [[#t16:21:40|16:21]]
 +
|- id="t16:21:57"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | we should have a simplified version for them, and _that_ could be discussed with the design team
 +
|| [[#t16:21:57|16:21]]
 +
|- id="t16:22:15"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I'm jumping around a bit but the main concern that I have about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the time needed to write all the templates/css and the work needed to set up reviews and the automatic generation of html
 +
|| [[#t16:22:15|16:22]]
 +
|- id="t16:22:36"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | tflink: how do you imagine the review process?
 +
|| [[#t16:22:36|16:22]]
 +
|- id="t16:23:14"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: agreed, but I also think that it would be good to see if we can get some outside ideas on how to present the information in a relatively easy-to-read fashion
 +
|| [[#t16:23:14|16:23]]
 +
|- id="t16:23:31"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tabs?
 +
|| [[#t16:23:31|16:23]]
 +
|- id="t16:23:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | if we want people to cite criteria when proposing blockers, they need to be relatively easy to understand
 +
|| [[#t16:23:34|16:23]]
 +
|- id="t16:23:45"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: reviewboard
 +
|| [[#t16:23:45|16:23]]
 +
|- id="t16:24:08"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | that's yet another project to polish :)
 +
|| [[#t16:24:08|16:24]]
 +
|- id="t16:24:15"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I finished setting up a reviewboard instance that we're using for the blocker tracking app
 +
|| [[#t16:24:15|16:24]]
 +
|- id="t16:24:36"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | it will do email notifications of code reviews on top of supporting inline and overall comments
 +
|| [[#t16:24:36|16:24]]
 +
|- id="t16:24:46"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | great
 +
|| [[#t16:24:46|16:24]]
 +
|- id="t16:24:57"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | the only thing it doesn't do is integrate with FAS
 +
|| [[#t16:24:57|16:24]]
 +
|- id="t16:25:11"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | and that's due to lack of support for openid upstream
 +
|| [[#t16:25:11|16:25]]
 +
|- id="t16:25:13"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | but so we are clear we are only talking about revisiting the presentation of the criteria not the criteria itself ?
 +
|| [[#t16:25:13|16:25]]
 +
|- id="t16:25:22"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | that topic can be a bit misleading
 +
|| [[#t16:25:22|16:25]]
 +
|- id="t16:25:23"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: at the moment, yes
 +
|| [[#t16:25:23|16:25]]
 +
|- id="t16:25:50"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I assume that's what adamw had in mind when he wrote the agenda, anyways
 +
|| [[#t16:25:50|16:25]]
 +
|- id="t16:26:04"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | if we don't have FAS integration, we can use github comments, for instance. is there any further benefit of reviewboard?
 +
|| [[#t16:26:04|16:26]]
 +
|- id="t16:26:37"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info as a clarification, this topic is about the presentation of the release criteria, not revising the criteria themselfs
 +
|| [[#t16:26:37|16:26]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:01"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: I'd really rather not rely on github if we don't have to but it sounds like I might about the only one who thinks that
 +
|| [[#t16:27:01|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:21"
 +
| colspan="2" | * kparal shrugs
 +
|| [[#t16:27:21|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:27"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | no we should keep this inhouse
 +
|| [[#t16:27:27|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:33"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | it might be easier than to maintain another app
 +
|| [[#t16:27:33|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: yeah, it would be
 +
|| [[#t16:27:47|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:27:57"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | if github explodes, it doesn't hurt much
 +
|| [[#t16:27:57|16:27]]
 +
|- id="t16:28:15"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | and it's not like we would be the only ones doing it - pretty much all of fedora infra is on github now
 +
|| [[#t16:28:15|16:28]]
 +
|- id="t16:28:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | interesting
 +
|| [[#t16:28:32|16:28]]
 +
|- id="t16:28:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | except some of the past discussion could be inaccessible
 +
|| [[#t16:28:32|16:28]]
 +
|- id="t16:28:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: it's still a hosted service outside our control and not open source
 +
|| [[#t16:28:35|16:28]]
 +
|- id="t16:29:13"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | I don't have a clear opinion on this, I just sometimes feel like having a NIH syndrome
 +
|| [[#t16:29:13|16:29]]
 +
|- id="t16:29:17"
 +
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | misc
 +
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | tflink: mhh, no, I think the fedora infra is still in house
 +
|| [[#t16:29:17|16:29]]
 +
|- id="t16:29:25"
 +
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | akshayvyas
 +
| style="color: #4b904b" | oops i am late :-(
 +
|| [[#t16:29:25|16:29]]
 +
|- id="t16:29:52"
 +
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | misc
 +
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | ( and pushing stuff to git hub make it more complex since this is not tied to FAS )
 +
|| [[#t16:29:52|16:29]]
 +
|- id="t16:29:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | misc: I'm pretty sure they moved everything after FUDCon Lawrence
 +
|| [[#t16:29:59|16:29]]
 +
|- id="t16:30:21"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | https://github.com/fedora-infra
 +
|| [[#t16:30:21|16:30]]
 +
|- id="t16:30:23"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | misc: yeah, that's true
 +
|| [[#t16:30:23|16:30]]
 +
|- id="t16:30:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | to clarify, I mean most of the apps that fedora infra uses
 +
|| [[#t16:30:35|16:30]]
 +
|- id="t16:30:36"
 +
! style="background-color: #4d4d93" | nirik
 +
| style="color: #4d4d93" | we did not move everything. ;) We allowed projects that wished to use it to use it.
 +
|| [[#t16:30:36|16:30]]
 +
|- id="t16:30:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | nirik: outside of koji, which projects didn't move?
 +
|| [[#t16:30:51|16:30]]
 +
|- id="t16:31:53"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but I digress a little bit
 +
|| [[#t16:31:53|16:31]]
 +
|- id="t16:32:45"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | tflink:  I think you should post the links (when it's somewhat ready) to test list, there will  be surely lots of interesting comments
 +
|| [[#t16:32:45|16:32]]
 +
|- id="t16:32:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #4d4d93" | nirik
 +
| style="color: #4d4d93" | lots of things I'm sure. I don't have a list.
 +
|| [[#t16:32:47|16:32]]
 +
|- id="t16:33:09"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info one large concern about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the theming work and the work needed to re-generate the HTML on git push
 +
|| [[#t16:33:09|16:33]]
 +
|- id="t16:33:39"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info both reviewboard and github are possibilities for reviewing criteria changes if we moved out of the wiki
 +
|| [[#t16:33:39|16:33]]
 +
|- id="t16:34:14"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | either way, we wouldn't be the first group that did stuff outside of fedorahosted
 +
|| [[#t16:34:14|16:34]]
 +
|- id="t16:35:09"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: yeah, I imagine that there would be some interesting discussion around any proposed changes
 +
|| [[#t16:35:09|16:35]]
 +
|- id="t16:35:19"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | :)
 +
|| [[#t16:35:19|16:35]]
 +
|- id="t16:35:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but we don't have a whole lot of time left before F19
 +
|| [[#t16:35:59|16:35]]
 +
|- id="t16:36:28"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | any other thoughts on this for today or is it OK to move on to the next topic?
 +
|| [[#t16:36:28|16:36]]
 +
|- id="t16:36:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | proposal: let's skip testing F19 and hack on infra instead
 +
|| [[#t16:36:32|16:36]]
 +
|- id="t16:36:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | let's move on
 +
|| [[#t16:36:51|16:36]]
 +
|- id="t16:36:53"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | kparal: as much as I'd like to +1000 that ...
 +
|| [[#t16:36:53|16:36]]
 +
|- id="t16:37:10"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Fedora 19 Test Days
 +
|| [[#t16:37:10|16:37]]
 +
|- id="t16:37:28"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | now that the F19 schedule has been accepted, we have test days to organize
 +
|| [[#t16:37:28|16:37]]
 +
|- id="t16:37:48"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | organize/oversee/whatever-you-want-to-call-it
 +
|| [[#t16:37:48|16:37]]
 +
|- id="t16:38:23"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | is anyone interested in volunteering to coordinate the F19 test days?
 +
|| [[#t16:38:23|16:38]]
 +
|- id="t16:39:18"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | don't everyone volunteer at the same time :-P
 +
|| [[#t16:39:18|16:39]]
 +
|- id="t16:39:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #854685" | kparal
 +
| style="color: #854685" | this is something I don't really enjoy :)
 +
|| [[#t16:39:40|16:39]]
 +
|- id="t16:39:53"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | just ensure all the *D
 +
|| [[#t16:39:53|16:39]]
 +
|- id="t16:39:54"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink hears a volunteer :-D
 +
|| [[#t16:39:54|16:39]]
 +
|- id="t16:40:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | just ensure all the *DE testing takes place after alpha
 +
|| [[#t16:40:02|16:40]]
 +
|- id="t16:40:05"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | any ideas for test days that haven't already been proposed?
 +
|| [[#t16:40:05|16:40]]
 +
|- id="t16:40:24"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I think that KDE and GNOME test days have already been requested for F19
 +
|| [[#t16:40:24|16:40]]
 +
|- id="t16:40:45"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | I'm just referring to the schedule
 +
|| [[#t16:40:45|16:40]]
 +
|- id="t16:40:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | I'm planning on hosting a iscsi test day
 +
|| [[#t16:40:59|16:40]]
 +
|- id="t16:41:21"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | we fully migrated it to systemd sometime before christmas
 +
|| [[#t16:41:21|16:41]]
 +
|- id="t16:41:22"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | power management and NM test days have also been requested
 +
|| [[#t16:41:22|16:41]]
 +
|- id="t16:42:16"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info Viking-Ice suggested an iscsi test day
 +
|| [[#t16:42:16|16:42]]
 +
|- id="t16:43:10"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | if there's nothing else, we can move on
 +
|| [[#t16:43:10|16:43]]
 +
|- id="t16:43:48"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, I did not suggest I *will* be hosting a iscsi test day
 +
|| [[#t16:43:48|16:43]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #undo
 +
|| [[#t16:44:07|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | Removing item from minutes: &lt;MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb87ed50&gt;
 +
|| [[#t16:44:07|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:23"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day
 +
|| [[#t16:44:23|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:41"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | date scheduled on later date ;)
 +
|| [[#t16:44:41|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:49"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #undo
 +
|| [[#t16:44:49|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:44:49"
 +
! style="background-color: #42427e" | zodbot
 +
| style="color: #42427e" | Removing item from minutes: &lt;MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xba8ced0&gt;
 +
|| [[#t16:44:49|16:44]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:01"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day. Exact date TBD and proposed later
 +
|| [[#t16:45:01|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:12"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | ok, anything else on this?
 +
|| [[#t16:45:12|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | we need to test "enterprise storage" in anaconda it's expected to be back ( gui wize if I'm not mistaken (
 +
|| [[#t16:45:32|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:36"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | uhum )
 +
|| [[#t16:45:36|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:39"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | ;)
 +
|| [[#t16:45:39|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:45:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | this release cycle
 +
|| [[#t16:45:51|16:45]]
 +
|- id="t16:46:00"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: yeah but that's hard to do in a test day - few people have access to "enterprise storage"
 +
|| [[#t16:46:00|16:46]]
 +
|- id="t16:46:27"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | well, access to "enterprise storage" they can test fedora installs with
 +
|| [[#t16:46:27|16:46]]
 +
|- id="t16:46:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | puff how does not have a san rack at home
 +
|| [[#t16:46:40|16:46]]
 +
|- id="t16:46:41"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | ;)
 +
|| [[#t16:46:41|16:46]]
 +
|- id="t16:47:09"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink hasn't touched a SAN since his days in storage testing
 +
|| [[#t16:47:09|16:47]]
 +
|- id="t16:47:22"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | nirik, what kind of storage infrastructure does infra have
 +
|| [[#t16:47:22|16:47]]
 +
|- id="t16:47:34"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | local disk only or something more "advanced"
 +
|| [[#t16:47:34|16:47]]
 +
|- id="t16:47:54"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | mostly netapp filers, I think but testing fedora installs in the fedora infra sounds like a really bad idea to me
 +
|| [[#t16:47:54|16:47]]
 +
|- id="t16:48:01"
 +
! style="background-color: #4d4d93" | nirik
 +
| style="color: #4d4d93" | we have local disk/lvm and some iscsi stuff. Nothing too odd
 +
|| [[#t16:48:01|16:48]]
 +
|- id="t16:48:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, why is that a bad idea?
 +
|| [[#t16:48:40|16:48]]
 +
|- id="t16:49:09"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: what part of testing installs of a pre-release OS on production infrastructure doesn't sound like a bad idea?
 +
|| [[#t16:49:09|16:49]]
 +
|- id="t16:49:52"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, hows exporting an empty share to on an pre-release os
 +
|| [[#t16:49:52|16:49]]
 +
|- id="t16:50:13"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | it's not like they would export something with mission critical data on it to the clients
 +
|| [[#t16:50:13|16:50]]
 +
|- id="t16:50:29"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | just and empty filesystem/partition
 +
|| [[#t16:50:29|16:50]]
 +
|- id="t16:50:40"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | s/and/an
 +
|| [[#t16:50:40|16:50]]
 +
|- id="t16:51:41"
 +
! style="background-color: #4d4d93" | nirik
 +
| style="color: #4d4d93" | we possibly could, but don't want it to interfere with any production setups... would have to look if we have spare/isolated space for such a thing
 +
|| [[#t16:51:41|16:51]]
 +
|- id="t16:51:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | that's a discussion you/we can have with infra, if they're OK with it, I'm not going to stop attempts - I'm just really cautious about addressing storage
 +
|| [[#t16:51:47|16:51]]
 +
|- id="t16:52:04"
 +
| colspan="2" | * nirik nods. I don't want prod interfered with.
 +
|| [[#t16:52:04|16:52]]
 +
|- id="t16:52:10"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink has seen far too many "enterprise" storage systems explode
 +
|| [[#t16:52:10|16:52]]
 +
|- id="t16:52:37"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but we digress
 +
|| [[#t16:52:37|16:52]]
 +
|- id="t16:52:52"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | this is a discussion that can happen outside of the meeting, on test@ and with infra
 +
|| [[#t16:52:52|16:52]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:01"
 +
! style="background-color: #97974f" | jsmith
 +
| style="color: #97974f" | tflink: :-)
 +
|| [[#t16:53:01|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | since we're almost out of time ...
 +
|| [[#t16:53:02|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:17"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Fedora 18 Retrospective
 +
|| [[#t16:53:17|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:30"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | This is something that we haven't talked about too much post-F18
 +
|| [[#t16:53:30|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:43"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | a few things have been added to the retrospective page
 +
|| [[#t16:53:43|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:46"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | it's simply really never do anaconda/upgrade rewrites again
 +
|| [[#t16:53:46|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:53:53"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective
 +
|| [[#t16:53:53|16:53]]
 +
|- id="t16:54:49"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: while I don't think that we'll see another major rewrite like that anytime soon, I don't think it's as simple as "never rewrite again"
 +
|| [[#t16:54:49|16:54]]
 +
|- id="t16:55:02"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | just go about doing it differently _if_ it ever happens again
 +
|| [[#t16:55:02|16:55]]
 +
|- id="t16:55:54"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but either way, constructive additions to that page would be appreciated
 +
|| [[#t16:55:54|16:55]]
 +
|- id="t16:55:56"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, no really if anaconda needs another rewrite in the distant future it should just be thrown away altogther and replaced with something written from scratch
 +
|| [[#t16:55:56|16:55]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:15"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: I don't see how it's our place to tell devs what to do
 +
|| [[#t16:56:15|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:34"
 +
| colspan="2" | * satellit require install on hardware plus in Virtualiztion
 +
|| [[#t16:56:34|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:36"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | tflink, it is when their mess ends up at our door step ;)
 +
|| [[#t16:56:36|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:38"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info Constructive additions to the retrospective are appreciated
 +
|| [[#t16:56:38|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #97974f" | jsmith
 +
| style="color: #97974f" | Viking-Ice: Most of the anaconda code *has* been rewritten from scratch
 +
|| [[#t16:56:51|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:56:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | hurray!
 +
|| [[#t16:56:59|16:56]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:09"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: we'd be naive to pretend that it was all their fault
 +
|| [[#t16:57:09|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:18"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | there is plenty of blame to go around
 +
|| [[#t16:57:18|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:22"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | blame/fault
 +
|| [[#t16:57:22|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:28"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | fesco has the other half
 +
|| [[#t16:57:28|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but blamestorming doesn't help anything
 +
|| [[#t16:57:47|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:57:51"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | in anycase "I wish, that f18 alpha was not declared GOLD, knowing that it will destroy data, by default. Even after such a decision was made, i wish the announcement informed us clearly that f18alpha *will destroy data*, and not wait one more week until the release notes become available. "
 +
|| [[#t16:57:51|16:57]]
 +
|- id="t16:58:30"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | I thought it was common knowledge that pre-release testing did make the requirement to throw away their current installs at release time
 +
|| [[#t16:58:30|16:58]]
 +
|- id="t16:58:33"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info Constructive additions to the retrospective page would be appreciated, tickets will be created from retrospective items shortly
 +
|| [[#t16:58:33|16:58]]
 +
|- id="t16:59:25"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: I don't see that on the retrospective, where did it come from?
 +
|| [[#t16:59:25|16:59]]
 +
|- id="t16:59:47"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | it's there straight under "Could have been better"
 +
|| [[#t16:59:47|16:59]]
 +
|- id="t16:59:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | oh, I skipped over it due to formatting
 +
|| [[#t16:59:59|16:59]]
 +
|- id="t17:00:42"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | the rest seem to be just adamw with criteria bits which we are already working at and Wutao85 with personal retrospective
 +
|| [[#t17:00:42|17:00]]
 +
|- id="t17:01:05"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | as in himself could do better at replying to bugs
 +
|| [[#t17:01:05|17:01]]
 +
|- id="t17:01:06"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | hence the request for more ideas :)
 +
|| [[#t17:01:06|17:01]]
 +
|- id="t17:01:20"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | anyhow, we're over time already
 +
|| [[#t17:01:20|17:01]]
 +
|- id="t17:01:33"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | anything else that people want to cover re: F18 retrospective
 +
|| [[#t17:01:33|17:01]]
 +
|- id="t17:01:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | ?
 +
|| [[#t17:01:35|17:01]]
 +
|- id="t17:02:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | well what did we learn about the blocker bug meetings
 +
|| [[#t17:02:07|17:02]]
 +
|- id="t17:02:28"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | that we didn't already know before F18?
 +
|| [[#t17:02:28|17:02]]
 +
|- id="t17:02:33"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | they don't scale all that well
 +
|| [[#t17:02:33|17:02]]
 +
|- id="t17:02:45"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | but the hope is that F18 was very much an outlier
 +
|| [[#t17:02:45|17:02]]
 +
|- id="t17:03:15"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | well we should set a fixed channel and keep with the 3hour max limit
 +
|| [[#t17:03:15|17:03]]
 +
|- id="t17:03:38"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | we kinda ended up doing that
 +
|| [[#t17:03:38|17:03]]
 +
|- id="t17:03:59"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | sure, but I think that the blocker review process is a little outside the F18 QA retrospective
 +
|| [[#t17:03:59|17:03]]
 +
|- id="t17:04:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | especially when we're already over time
 +
|| [[#t17:04:07|17:04]]
 +
|- id="t17:04:32"
 +
| colspan="2" | * tflink isn't trying to say that the process is perfect or that it shouldn't be discussed
 +
|| [[#t17:04:32|17:04]]
 +
|- id="t17:04:46"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | yeah sure whatever fits your meeting needs
 +
|| [[#t17:04:46|17:04]]
 +
|- id="t17:05:07"
 +
| colspan="2" | * satellit added comment to retrospective
 +
|| [[#t17:05:07|17:05]]
 +
|- id="t17:05:48"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #info discussion around the blocker review process for F19 would be wise before we get into testing
 +
|| [[#t17:05:48|17:05]]
 +
|- id="t17:06:10"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #topic Open Floor
 +
|| [[#t17:06:10|17:06]]
 +
|- id="t17:06:32"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Anything else that should be discussed today?
 +
|| [[#t17:06:32|17:06]]
 +
|- id="t17:06:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #9b519b" | satellit
 +
| style="color: #9b519b" | when will koji try again for lives?
 +
|| [[#t17:06:35|17:06]]
 +
|- id="t17:06:58"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I think there were some problems with rawhide over the weekend
 +
|| [[#t17:06:58|17:06]]
 +
|- id="t17:07:22"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | something about getting comps, I think but I didn't read the details
 +
|| [[#t17:07:22|17:07]]
 +
|- id="t17:07:50"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | either way, I'm not sure what the decision was regarding the frequency of rawhide compose attempts
 +
|| [[#t17:07:50|17:07]]
 +
|- id="t17:07:54"
 +
| colspan="2" | * nirik restarted rawhide compose for today, should land in a few hours.
 +
|| [[#t17:07:54|17:07]]
 +
|- id="t17:07:56"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | does anyone else know what the plan is?
 +
|| [[#t17:07:56|17:07]]
 +
|- id="t17:08:07"
 +
! style="background-color: #9b519b" | satellit
 +
| style="color: #9b519b" | thanks
 +
|| [[#t17:08:07|17:08]]
 +
|- id="t17:08:18"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | s/else//
 +
|| [[#t17:08:18|17:08]]
 +
|- id="t17:08:26"
 +
! style="background-color: #4d4d93" | nirik
 +
| style="color: #4d4d93" | lives I can do after that. for install there was talk of doing weekly... but thats not yet started that I know of.
 +
|| [[#t17:08:26|17:08]]
 +
|- id="t17:09:25"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | I think that dgilmore was working with anaconda devs when they requested a compose
 +
|| [[#t17:09:25|17:09]]
 +
|- id="t17:09:29"
 +
! style="background-color: #9b519b" | satellit
 +
| style="color: #9b519b" | FYI I installed anaconda from http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org//work/tasks/2340/4912340/Fedora-19-Nightly-20130129.10-x86_64-Live-xfce.iso
 +
|| [[#t17:09:29|17:09]]
 +
|- id="t17:10:10"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | anyhow, if there are no other topics, I'll set the fuse for ~ 5 minutes
 +
|| [[#t17:10:10|17:10]]
 +
|- id="t17:10:26"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | yeah it kinda serves no purpose to start composing images until anaconda says go
 +
|| [[#t17:10:26|17:10]]
 +
|- id="t17:10:46"
 +
| colspan="2" | * nirik nods
 +
|| [[#t17:10:46|17:10]]
 +
|- id="t17:10:48"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Viking-Ice: IIRC, they were one of the groups requesting rawhide composes
 +
|| [[#t17:10:48|17:10]]
 +
|- id="t17:11:35"
 +
! style="background-color: #488888" | Viking-Ice
 +
| style="color: #488888" | yup
 +
|| [[#t17:11:35|17:11]]
 +
|- id="t17:14:19"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | Thanks for coming, everyone!
 +
|| [[#t17:14:19|17:14]]
 +
|- id="t17:14:27"
 +
! style="background-color: #407a40" | tflink
 +
| style="color: #407a40" | #endmeeting
 +
|| [[#t17:14:27|17:14]]
 +
|}
 +
 +
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.11.0 by [mailto:marius@pov.lt Marius Gedminas] - find it at [http://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html mg.pov.lt]!

Latest revision as of 17:34, 11 February 2013

Contents

[edit] Attendees

  • tflink (131)
  • Viking-Ice (49)
  • kparal (23)
  • dan408- (15)
  • nirik (8)
  • zodbot (6)
  • satellit (6)
  • misc (2)
  • jsmith (2)
  • jskladan (1)
  • akshayvyas (1)
  • pschindl (1)

[edit] Agenda

  • Previous Meeting Followup
  • Criteria Presentation Revision
  • Fedora 19 Test Days
  • Retrospective Review
  • Open Floor

[edit] Previous Meeting Followup

  • adamw to draft up a proposal for revising the presentation of the release criteria
    • Work has been started on revising the presentation of the release criteria, not ready for proposal yet
    • Topic for discussion later in meeting
  • adamw to draft up a kickstart criterion for f19
    • Has not been done

[edit] Criteria Presentation Revision

[edit] Fedora 19 Test Days

  • We need to kick off the F19 Test Day cycle - who wants to own it? Ideas for Test Days?
    • No volunteers to own the F19 test day cycle
  • Viking-Ice stated that he plans to host an iscsi test day for F19 (date TBD)

[edit] Retrospective review

  • Let's take a look through the Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective to see if anything jumps out
    • Nothing constructive added
    • Please add constructive thoughts to the retrospective
  • Viking-Ice requested discussion about the blocker review process (tabled to another meeting)

[edit] Open floor

[edit] IRC Log

tflink #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting 16:01
zodbot Meeting started Mon Feb 11 16:01:02 2013 UTC. The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:01
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:01
tflink #meetingname fedora-qa 16:01
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 16:01
tflink #topic Roll Call 16:01
tflink #chair kparal 16:01
zodbot Current chairs: kparal tflink 16:01
* kparal waves 16:02
* satellit listening 16:02
* jskladan tips his hat 16:02
dan408- im not here 16:03
* kparal nudges pschindl 16:03
* tflink waits another minute before getting things started 16:04
tflink bit of a small group today but let's get started 16:05
dan408- no adamw? 16:05
tflink holiday in canada 16:06
dan408- snowboarding holiday 16:06
kparal adamw is slacking off 16:06
dan408- okay continue please 16:06
tflink and a public holiday, but either way 16:06
tflink #topic Previous Meeting Followup 16:06
* pschindl is here 16:07
tflink #info adamw to draft up a proposal for revising the presentation of the release criteria 16:07
tflink #info adamw has been working on the release criteria presentation, no proposal has been sent out yet. will be covered later in meeting 16:08
tflink #info adamw to draft up a kickstart criterion for f19 16:08
tflink I don't think this was done, either 16:08
tflink did I miss something? 16:09
dan408- nope 16:09
dan408- +1 16:09
tflink #info this hasn't been done yet 16:10
tflink anything else from meeting followup? 16:10
tflink I don't see anything from the minutes 16:10
* tflink assumes silence == nothing else 16:11
tflink #topic Criteria Revision 16:11
* Viking-Ice joins in 16:12
dan408- hello Viking-Ice 16:12
tflink We started the conversation a bit last week, but it sounded like there was general agreement that the presentation of the release criteria could be improved 16:12
tflink #info adamw has been working on a draft update to the presentation of the release criteria 16:12
tflink #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox 16:13
kparal interesting 16:13
tflink I don't think that he's done yet but it shows a re-thinking of the current presentation 16:13
dan408- where can we make suggestions here? 16:13
kparal dan408-: test list 16:14
tflink dan408-: test@ 16:14
tflink it turns out that figuring out how to present the information is not an easy problem 16:14
dan408- sigh 16:14
tflink one thought that I had was to take the criteria out of the wiki so that we aren't restricted by wiki formatting 16:15
dan408- there's nothing wrong with the wiki 16:15
dan408- maybe we can use talk? 16:15
dan408- test is way too busty 16:15
dan408- i dont even pay attention to it 16:15
Viking-Ice tflink, yeah if we can put it on the qa criteria page you are working on 16:15
dan408- https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox&action=edit&redlink=1 16:15
tflink I took a snapshot of what adamw was working on, translated it to rst and generated a really basic proof-of-concept 16:15
Viking-Ice I dont think nesting this is a way to go as adam is doing there 16:16
tflink #info tflink made a proof-of-concept of taking the release criteria out of the wiki 16:16
tflink #link http://tflink.fedorapeople.org/criteria_display/ 16:16
tflink I haven't done _any_ theming or admonition work yet 16:16
Viking-Ice since it requires the user to perform additional click to get that information 16:16
tflink so the layout is really rough 16:16
dan408- this is prettier.. 16:16
tflink but my thought is that it would allow for easier integration with the blocker proposal app, would give us _much_ more flexibility in presentation and wouldn't make it too much more difficult for people to contribute to the criteria writing 16:17
kparal I have some comments about it, but I think this would be best discussed on the list 16:17
Viking-Ice should really that many people be editing the criteria 16:18
tflink the whole thing would live in a git repository, criteria revisions could be discussed like code reviews and the static html would be generated automatically on push to git master 16:18
Viking-Ice tflink, your page is better presented then what adam has been working on 16:18
tflink the question becomes how long it would take to translate everything 16:19
Viking-Ice should it really be translated ? 16:19
tflink but either way, we need to figure out how to present the information 16:19
tflink Viking-Ice: translation from mediawiki to rst 16:19
tflink poor choice of words on my part, sorry 16:19
Viking-Ice ok took it as language translation 16:19
tflink yeah, I should have phrased it differently 16:20
tflink one thought was to talk with the design team about how to present the information 16:20
kparal I don't think we need the design team for everything. this page should be mainly useful for us, because general users/testers won't read it anyway 16:21
kparal we should have a simplified version for them, and _that_ could be discussed with the design team 16:21
tflink I'm jumping around a bit but the main concern that I have about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the time needed to write all the templates/css and the work needed to set up reviews and the automatic generation of html 16:22
kparal tflink: how do you imagine the review process? 16:22
tflink kparal: agreed, but I also think that it would be good to see if we can get some outside ideas on how to present the information in a relatively easy-to-read fashion 16:23
Viking-Ice tabs? 16:23
tflink if we want people to cite criteria when proposing blockers, they need to be relatively easy to understand 16:23
tflink kparal: reviewboard 16:23
kparal that's yet another project to polish :) 16:24
tflink I finished setting up a reviewboard instance that we're using for the blocker tracking app 16:24
tflink it will do email notifications of code reviews on top of supporting inline and overall comments 16:24
kparal great 16:24
tflink the only thing it doesn't do is integrate with FAS 16:24
tflink and that's due to lack of support for openid upstream 16:25
Viking-Ice but so we are clear we are only talking about revisiting the presentation of the criteria not the criteria itself ? 16:25
Viking-Ice that topic can be a bit misleading 16:25
tflink Viking-Ice: at the moment, yes 16:25
tflink I assume that's what adamw had in mind when he wrote the agenda, anyways 16:25
kparal if we don't have FAS integration, we can use github comments, for instance. is there any further benefit of reviewboard? 16:26
tflink #info as a clarification, this topic is about the presentation of the release criteria, not revising the criteria themselfs 16:26
tflink kparal: I'd really rather not rely on github if we don't have to but it sounds like I might about the only one who thinks that 16:27
* kparal shrugs 16:27
Viking-Ice no we should keep this inhouse 16:27
kparal it might be easier than to maintain another app 16:27
tflink kparal: yeah, it would be 16:27
kparal if github explodes, it doesn't hurt much 16:27
tflink and it's not like we would be the only ones doing it - pretty much all of fedora infra is on github now 16:28
Viking-Ice interesting 16:28
kparal except some of the past discussion could be inaccessible 16:28
tflink kparal: it's still a hosted service outside our control and not open source 16:28
kparal I don't have a clear opinion on this, I just sometimes feel like having a NIH syndrome 16:29
misc tflink: mhh, no, I think the fedora infra is still in house 16:29
akshayvyas oops i am late :-( 16:29
misc ( and pushing stuff to git hub make it more complex since this is not tied to FAS ) 16:29
tflink misc: I'm pretty sure they moved everything after FUDCon Lawrence 16:29
tflink https://github.com/fedora-infra 16:30
kparal misc: yeah, that's true 16:30
tflink to clarify, I mean most of the apps that fedora infra uses 16:30
nirik we did not move everything. ;) We allowed projects that wished to use it to use it. 16:30
tflink nirik: outside of koji, which projects didn't move? 16:30
tflink but I digress a little bit 16:31
kparal tflink: I think you should post the links (when it's somewhat ready) to test list, there will be surely lots of interesting comments 16:32
nirik lots of things I'm sure. I don't have a list. 16:32
tflink #info one large concern about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the theming work and the work needed to re-generate the HTML on git push 16:33
tflink #info both reviewboard and github are possibilities for reviewing criteria changes if we moved out of the wiki 16:33
tflink either way, we wouldn't be the first group that did stuff outside of fedorahosted 16:34
tflink kparal: yeah, I imagine that there would be some interesting discussion around any proposed changes 16:35
kparal  :) 16:35
tflink but we don't have a whole lot of time left before F19 16:35
tflink any other thoughts on this for today or is it OK to move on to the next topic? 16:36
kparal proposal: let's skip testing F19 and hack on infra instead 16:36
kparal let's move on 16:36
tflink kparal: as much as I'd like to +1000 that ... 16:36
tflink #topic Fedora 19 Test Days 16:37
tflink now that the F19 schedule has been accepted, we have test days to organize 16:37
tflink organize/oversee/whatever-you-want-to-call-it 16:37
tflink is anyone interested in volunteering to coordinate the F19 test days? 16:38
tflink don't everyone volunteer at the same time :-P 16:39
kparal this is something I don't really enjoy :) 16:39
Viking-Ice just ensure all the *D 16:39
* tflink hears a volunteer :-D 16:39
Viking-Ice just ensure all the *DE testing takes place after alpha 16:40
tflink any ideas for test days that haven't already been proposed? 16:40
tflink I think that KDE and GNOME test days have already been requested for F19 16:40
Viking-Ice I'm just referring to the schedule 16:40
Viking-Ice I'm planning on hosting a iscsi test day 16:40
Viking-Ice we fully migrated it to systemd sometime before christmas 16:41
tflink power management and NM test days have also been requested 16:41
tflink #info Viking-Ice suggested an iscsi test day 16:42
tflink if there's nothing else, we can move on 16:43
Viking-Ice tflink, I did not suggest I *will* be hosting a iscsi test day 16:43
tflink #undo 16:44
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb87ed50> 16:44
tflink #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day 16:44
Viking-Ice date scheduled on later date ;) 16:44
tflink #undo 16:44
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xba8ced0> 16:44
tflink #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day. Exact date TBD and proposed later 16:45
tflink ok, anything else on this? 16:45
Viking-Ice we need to test "enterprise storage" in anaconda it's expected to be back ( gui wize if I'm not mistaken ( 16:45
Viking-Ice uhum ) 16:45
Viking-Ice  ;) 16:45
Viking-Ice this release cycle 16:45
tflink Viking-Ice: yeah but that's hard to do in a test day - few people have access to "enterprise storage" 16:46
tflink well, access to "enterprise storage" they can test fedora installs with 16:46
Viking-Ice puff how does not have a san rack at home 16:46
Viking-Ice  ;) 16:46
* tflink hasn't touched a SAN since his days in storage testing 16:47
Viking-Ice nirik, what kind of storage infrastructure does infra have 16:47
Viking-Ice local disk only or something more "advanced" 16:47
tflink mostly netapp filers, I think but testing fedora installs in the fedora infra sounds like a really bad idea to me 16:47
nirik we have local disk/lvm and some iscsi stuff. Nothing too odd 16:48
Viking-Ice tflink, why is that a bad idea? 16:48
tflink Viking-Ice: what part of testing installs of a pre-release OS on production infrastructure doesn't sound like a bad idea? 16:49
Viking-Ice tflink, hows exporting an empty share to on an pre-release os 16:49
Viking-Ice it's not like they would export something with mission critical data on it to the clients 16:50
Viking-Ice just and empty filesystem/partition 16:50
Viking-Ice s/and/an 16:50
nirik we possibly could, but don't want it to interfere with any production setups... would have to look if we have spare/isolated space for such a thing 16:51
tflink that's a discussion you/we can have with infra, if they're OK with it, I'm not going to stop attempts - I'm just really cautious about addressing storage 16:51
* nirik nods. I don't want prod interfered with. 16:52
* tflink has seen far too many "enterprise" storage systems explode 16:52
tflink but we digress 16:52
tflink this is a discussion that can happen outside of the meeting, on test@ and with infra 16:52
jsmith tflink: :-) 16:53
tflink since we're almost out of time ... 16:53
tflink #topic Fedora 18 Retrospective 16:53
tflink This is something that we haven't talked about too much post-F18 16:53
tflink a few things have been added to the retrospective page 16:53
Viking-Ice it's simply really never do anaconda/upgrade rewrites again 16:53
tflink #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective 16:53
tflink Viking-Ice: while I don't think that we'll see another major rewrite like that anytime soon, I don't think it's as simple as "never rewrite again" 16:54
tflink just go about doing it differently _if_ it ever happens again 16:55
tflink but either way, constructive additions to that page would be appreciated 16:55
Viking-Ice tflink, no really if anaconda needs another rewrite in the distant future it should just be thrown away altogther and replaced with something written from scratch 16:55
tflink Viking-Ice: I don't see how it's our place to tell devs what to do 16:56
* satellit require install on hardware plus in Virtualiztion 16:56
Viking-Ice tflink, it is when their mess ends up at our door step ;) 16:56
tflink #info Constructive additions to the retrospective are appreciated 16:56
jsmith Viking-Ice: Most of the anaconda code *has* been rewritten from scratch 16:56
Viking-Ice hurray! 16:56
tflink Viking-Ice: we'd be naive to pretend that it was all their fault 16:57
tflink there is plenty of blame to go around 16:57
tflink blame/fault 16:57
Viking-Ice fesco has the other half 16:57
tflink but blamestorming doesn't help anything 16:57
Viking-Ice in anycase "I wish, that f18 alpha was not declared GOLD, knowing that it will destroy data, by default. Even after such a decision was made, i wish the announcement informed us clearly that f18alpha *will destroy data*, and not wait one more week until the release notes become available. " 16:57
Viking-Ice I thought it was common knowledge that pre-release testing did make the requirement to throw away their current installs at release time 16:58
tflink #info Constructive additions to the retrospective page would be appreciated, tickets will be created from retrospective items shortly 16:58
tflink Viking-Ice: I don't see that on the retrospective, where did it come from? 16:59
Viking-Ice it's there straight under "Could have been better" 16:59
tflink oh, I skipped over it due to formatting 16:59
Viking-Ice the rest seem to be just adamw with criteria bits which we are already working at and Wutao85 with personal retrospective 17:00
Viking-Ice as in himself could do better at replying to bugs 17:01
tflink hence the request for more ideas :) 17:01
tflink anyhow, we're over time already 17:01
tflink anything else that people want to cover re: F18 retrospective 17:01
tflink  ? 17:01
Viking-Ice well what did we learn about the blocker bug meetings 17:02
tflink that we didn't already know before F18? 17:02
tflink they don't scale all that well 17:02
tflink but the hope is that F18 was very much an outlier 17:02
Viking-Ice well we should set a fixed channel and keep with the 3hour max limit 17:03
Viking-Ice we kinda ended up doing that 17:03
tflink sure, but I think that the blocker review process is a little outside the F18 QA retrospective 17:03
tflink especially when we're already over time 17:04
* tflink isn't trying to say that the process is perfect or that it shouldn't be discussed 17:04
Viking-Ice yeah sure whatever fits your meeting needs 17:04
* satellit added comment to retrospective 17:05
tflink #info discussion around the blocker review process for F19 would be wise before we get into testing 17:05
tflink #topic Open Floor 17:06
tflink Anything else that should be discussed today? 17:06
satellit when will koji try again for lives? 17:06
tflink I think there were some problems with rawhide over the weekend 17:06
tflink something about getting comps, I think but I didn't read the details 17:07
tflink either way, I'm not sure what the decision was regarding the frequency of rawhide compose attempts 17:07
* nirik restarted rawhide compose for today, should land in a few hours. 17:07
tflink does anyone else know what the plan is? 17:07
satellit thanks 17:08
tflink s/else// 17:08
nirik lives I can do after that. for install there was talk of doing weekly... but thats not yet started that I know of. 17:08
tflink I think that dgilmore was working with anaconda devs when they requested a compose 17:09
satellit FYI I installed anaconda from http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org//work/tasks/2340/4912340/Fedora-19-Nightly-20130129.10-x86_64-Live-xfce.iso 17:09
tflink anyhow, if there are no other topics, I'll set the fuse for ~ 5 minutes 17:10
Viking-Ice yeah it kinda serves no purpose to start composing images until anaconda says go 17:10
* nirik nods 17:10
tflink Viking-Ice: IIRC, they were one of the groups requesting rawhide composes 17:10
Viking-Ice yup 17:11
tflink Thanks for coming, everyone! 17:14
tflink #endmeeting 17:14

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