ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2008-mar-03

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2008-03-03

Beta Freeze

• unresolved issues in X, perl, and mkinitrd
• koji slowness also contributing to slip
• delaying freeze and corresponding beta release by one week
• no proposed change to GA date at this time--discuss next week

2008-03-03-14:07-meeting-snapshot

-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - Roll Call		<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
f13	ping: notting jeremy rdieter wwoods lmacken warren jwb poelcat spot	<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
warren	meh	<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* spot is here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* lmacken is here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* jeremy		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* rdieter here kinda sorta		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - Fedora 9 Beta		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13	Tonight, we freeze.	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* poelcat here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
notting	f13: tomorrow, we dine in hell?	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	I already have f9-beta being populated from dist-f9.  I'll commit a change tonight so that dist-rawhide pulls from it	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	notting: pretty much.	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	tomorrow's rawhide will be the frozen content	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
* wwoods here		<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	I'm also going to start signing later today (once the updates push is done)	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	since people have been slamming planes into the runway the last few days (and today) the next couple days are likely going to be sweeping the decks of all the wreckage.	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13	we're keeping our eyes on the X stuff, as we may just maybe have to delay the release a bit for good X bits to land	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13	but delaying the release won't be the same as keeping rawhide frozen.  If we get to the point where we're just waiting for X, we'll let rawhide move on and just wait for X to land to do the final compose+push	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	We'll ask wwoods to hook us up with a wiki page to start tracking testing and issues	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	and we already have an F9Beta bug	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
wwoods	yup	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
jeremy	with a fair number of open things on it already	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	right	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	we should be adding more as we see them.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	I'm asking jwb to do test composes of ppc, but I will take care of pushing the final buttons to make the content show up	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	we may use machines in PHX for it, if mmcgrath has the resources, otherwise we'll do it in BOS again.	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	but since the netapp drop point is in PHX, PHX would be preferred.	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	that's about all I have initially for Beta stuff, are there any questions/issues that you'd like discussed?	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
notting	X bad	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
f13	yes	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
spot	f13: any chance of perl 5.10.0 slipping in?	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
* notting looks at the clock		<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
f13	spot: how close are you?	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
wwoods	Oh uh. Someone should probably mention that boot.iso is gone baby gone	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
f13	oh yeah	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
jeremy	wwoods: yeah, need to do some release note stuff	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
wwoods	and that netinst.iso and/or SNAKE are the easy ways to do rawhide installs	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	I need to throw some code at pungi to move/copy netinst.iso from images/ out to iso/	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
notting	need to add relnotes about upstart	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
spot	f13: maybe 330 packages done at this point	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
spot	out of about 800	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
spot	slowdown is koji, not me.	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
stickster	notting: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/SystemDaemons">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/SystemDaemons</a>	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
stickster	I added a short note there, but it might be able to use clarification.	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
spot	koji just can't build fast enough, its doing one an hour, on average	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
notting	f13:  i may be of surprisingly little use this week, i appear to have caught the flu	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
warren	notting, Sinucleanse!	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13	spot: there aren't any places you can make better chain groups instead of single links?	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
notting	warren: um, yeah. i'm sure that will do wonders for aches and pains ;)	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
spot	f13: not until i get about 400 done.	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
notting	stickster: oh dear. someone changed a script to be started from upstart? must beat them ;)	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
stickster	notting: I thought someone mentioned zeroconf in some idle chitchat here or f-devel-l	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
stickster	It's not firsthand knowledge, feel free to delete.	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
wwoods	I wonder if initscripts can send out upstart events when they do their thing	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
notting	wwoods: see the linked bug from the 'upstart' tracker about cross-system deps	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
* stickster & # derailing meeting--		<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
notting	wwoods: sysv -> upstart is doable. upstart -> sysv is hard	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
f13	spot: ok, it's going to be close.  I don't like our options here.  Slip beta, land it during the freeze and cross fingers, land it after beta and cross fingers, delay until F10	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
wwoods	yeah, sorry, abandoning tangent	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
* jeremy is strongly against "land it after beta"		<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
spot	i would really hate to delay	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
spot	if i had a few more days, i could get it done	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
f13	that leaves us either with slipping beta freeze, or landing it after the freeze and hoping beta will be ok	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
poelcat	f13: do we know any more about the state of X which could affect beta?	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
* jwb is here now		<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
f13	poelcat: many drivers aren't working right now, ajax is working on it as fast as he can	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
spot	X is having rather annoying keymapping issues	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	poelcat: but ajax/jrb will know more details.	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
warren	Have we had installable rawhide at all in the past weeks?	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
spot	(hint: don't select multiple items in evolution)	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	warren: yes	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
jeremy	spot: the keymap problems are worse on upgrades than new installs -- and you can change your config to make it work.  but yeah, still not pretty	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
wwoods	today's is installable AFAIK	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
spot	jeremy: any workarounds would be good to document	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
wwoods	650/1050 packages installed; I'll let you know if it reboots OK	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
jeremy	wwoods: still not rebootable due to the mkinitrd thing.  but I guess I'm going to end up looking at that this afternoon since peter is hosed by rhel	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	provided you don't use lvm or label= mounting methods	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
wwoods	fucking seriously? still no progress on that mkinitrd bug?	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	to be fair, it was the weekend	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren	jeremy, what needs to be done?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren	bug #?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
notting	wwoods: iscsi and 5.2 happened	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
wwoods	warren: bug 435228	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
bzbot	Bug <a href="https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=435228">https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=435228</a> low, low, ---, Peter Jones, NEW , mkinitrd doesn't grab dm modules for LVs listed by LABEL or UUID	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
warren	is the nash and dhcp libs dep problem fixed?	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
f13	wasn't aware of such a problem.	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
wwoods	the second patch, by the way, does *not* fix the problem	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
jeremy	warren: yes.	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	right, so we clearly need work on this issue	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13	that's not all that surprising	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
warren	Isn't it pretty clear that we have to slip the freeze?	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
wwoods	so: a bug I submitted a fix for last week has made all rawhide installs non-bootable and therefore we have no pre-freeze testing.	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
warren	perl is a huge change	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13	warren: slipping the freeze just means more shit gets broken.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	this happens /every/ /single/ /freeze/	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
jwb	when is freeze date again?	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
wwoods	I don't think slipping the freeze is a good idea. Lengthening it might be necessary.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	jwb: tonight	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
jwb	i agree with wwoods	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	right, we always have the option of lengthening the freeze	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	and that doesn't seem unreasonable in this case.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	especially for perl to land	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	bah	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
* f13 wipes wagamamas off his laptop		<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
wwoods	that's my gut feeling on the matter, anyway	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
wwoods	anyway I spent a couple of days hacking on the mkinitrd thing so feel free to ask me if you want logs / debugging info /etc	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
notting	if we want perl 5.10 in f9, we should land it now	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	so here is my take on it	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	I don't like announcing ahead of time that we're slipping a release date, or lengthening the freeze	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	this just invites people to take their time and land stuff at the last possible moment, not giving us any time to verify integration and test.	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	so I'd rather announce that we're going ahead as scheduled, and only announce changes if they become absolutely necessary	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	notting: I think we all agree on that	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
* spot wants to land it, its just a matter of getting the builds done		<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
wwoods	is it just a matter of rebuilding, or are there lots of fixes necessary?	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
jeremy	f13: the flip side is that people pull of heroics only to get told "haha, just kidding.  you had more time"	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	Proposal: Maintain schedule as is.  Keep eye on Perl builds for timing.  Also let ajax know if our contengency plan of delaying the release ( he should already be aware of this via jrb ).  Delay the release of the beta for Perl/X/Whatever else only when it becomes necessary.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	jeremy, +1	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
warren	jeremy, that also means that some people might give up when they really could have fixed something in time.	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	it is a balancing act.	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
spot	wwoods: at this point, almost no fixes	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
spot	just rebuilds	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
jwb	spot, is this being done on the side still?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
spot	jwb: in dist-f9-perl	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
jwb	and the plan is to mass tag those builds to dist-f9?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
* spot nods		<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
jwb	k...	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
jeremy	f13: -1.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren	f13, -1	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
warren	jeremy, what do you suggest instead though?	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
jwb	i'll refrain from voting at the moment	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
jeremy	I think that we need to take a real look at where we are and actually adjust the schedule based on what we really think rather than saying "lalalalala" when we know that there's really _zero_ chance of us having a real freeze of any kind tonight	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
poelcat	jeremy: +1	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13	jeremy: my only problem with that is the schedule has been known well in advance.  Without any sort of freeze, I have very little confidence that anything will actually improve	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13	because, this shit has been /bad/ for a long time	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
jwb	f13 has a point	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	we've really only had two relatively stable installable points.  Just after F8 release, and the Alpha freeze~	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	would it be possible to grant tag privileges to ajax for X stuff?	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
jeremy	and being unrealistic changes anything how exactly?	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	jeremy: I'm not sure of any other way to get the message across to fix shit and stop breaking things	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
wwoods	doesn't a freeze do that?	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	perhaps we need to move the feature freeze back before the beta freeze	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	because beta just tends to be the crap people land last minute	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
jwb	this isn't a beta	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	but I'm game for jeremy's suggestion	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
* warren notes that there are different kinds of "features", many don't threaten stability.		<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	jeremy: Looking at what we have now, what would you consider realistic to do?	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
* f13 notes that feature freezes aren't just for stability either.		<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
wwoods	yes, but many of the things that *are* causing instability are feature-related (xserver 1.5, encrypted filesystems, etc)	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
f13	It seems that the two main pain points are X and mkinitrd	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
jeremy	wwoods: what instability is encrypted filesystems causing?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	and then the desire to see perl land.	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	do we have a good idea of what other than those things are threatening beta?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
lmacken	13:30  spot> jwb: in dist-f9-perl	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
lmacken	erm	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren	the size of perl's changes doesn't worry you?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
wwoods	jeremy: it kept people from booting for a while and broke rescue. current mkinitrd junk isn't encryption-related	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren	it might build but how well does it work?	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
spot	they really only affect perl, and about 10 other packages.	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
wwoods	so I guess I should have said "*have been* causing instability"	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
f13	warren: that's what beta is /for/	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
wwoods	sorry for confusion!	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
spot	in my testing, those other packages work fine with 5.10	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren	nice	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
f13	warren: to get testing on these features, not to say "everything is fine, have fun!"	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
wwoods	also encryption in rescue mode totally works now, so yeah.. encryption is totally A-OK fine	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	so what we're really talking about is X, perl, and mkinitrd.	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	I'd be willing to bet we have a working mkinitrd before the end of the day, if people don't bug jeremy for the rest of the day	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	perl is going as fast as it can, and ajax is working on X, we need to leave him alone too	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	what else is going on?	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
* spot could be done in a week, assuming the builders keep going		<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
spot	(worst case)	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jeremy	perl needing a week sounds like we either need to a) drop perl 5.10 or b) slip a week.  I don't really see how we're having any other conversation	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
spot	it only needs a week because the builders only spit out a package an hour	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jwb	if we drop perl, is it dropped for RC/Final as well?	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
wwoods	can't we freeze now and just lengthen the freeze for perl and xserver?	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
f13	jwb: yes, if it doesn't go into beta, it doesn't go in.	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
wwoods	I'm trying to find some way to express how desperately I want to spend some time stabilizing rawhide so people can actually test it	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
jwb	wwoods, that's what i was getting at with giving ajax tagging privileges	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
jeremy	wwoods: I'd rather let us be honest.  there are some other things which are almost certainly on the fence or people pushing hard at the last minute	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
wwoods	Which is kind of the point of the freeze	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
f13	well, I'm feeling of the opinion that my lofty goal of 1 week freezes is pretty trashed by now	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13	and I think we need to extend the amount of days we spend in freeze mode anyway	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13	because the 1 week stuff is killing me.	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13	so either way I'd want to extend freezes by a week~	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
warren	f13, prior to you arriving at RH, very long freezes seemed to kill people's motivation too.	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
warren	f13, but back then there were fewer people to tag things in, so maybe that is less of an issue now.	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
jwb	i think he knows that	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
f13	warren: that was when all freezes were blocking, and there was less communication	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
jeremy	long freezes just lead to more problems after the freeze	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
wwoods	I know long freezes suck. Also, on second thought: most of the instability we're dealing with is in things like kernel, X, etc	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
f13	alright, so it seems like all my ideas are shit today, jeremy, what are we going to do?	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
wwoods	stuff we'd be accepting during a freeze anyway	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
wwoods	so maybe a longer freeze - while sounding good in theory - would just piss off all the devs that are trying to work on otherwise-stable stuff	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
warren	longer freeze pisses off devs who work on stuff that is irrelevant to stability	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
* jeremy really thinks we just need to bite the bullet and push back the freeze. the stuff that's causing us the pain is the stuff that's working on being stabilized		<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
wwoods	warren: right	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13	jeremy: I'm ok with that, I'm talking about something else now.  The fact that freeze on tuesday && have tree ready for mirrors by next Monday is just unrealistic	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13	especially if we want any sort of testing beyond "hey look, it installed" on the bits we hand to the mirrors	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
jeremy	f13: I think that's one of the points of being a community-focused distro.  we can't do all the testing before we call it a beta	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
jeremy	which, yes, leads to the beta having more problems than in the Old Days (tm)	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
f13	jeremy: thus far, we can't really do /any/ testing either.	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
f13	but now we're just arguing because people are pissed at the situation.	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
jeremy	f13: that's a little unfair -- there are a number of things that are getting tested.  even on the install side of things  (cf I fixed several bugs yesterday that people were finding and reporting)	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
f13	so.	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
f13	Proposal: Delay freeze by a week, keep it the same length as previously scheduled.	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
warren	proposed amendment: announce it today, but warn people to not add things that could cause further instability	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
jwb	or what?	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
warren	jwb, pointy sticks	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
wwoods	yelldown warhellride	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jeremy	jwb: those who add instability will be called out in public	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jeremy	jwb: that's the only real "or what" that we have -- peer pressure	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
warren	jwb, Point to the crater that used to be the orphanarium.	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
wwoods	we will seriously doubt your commitment to sparklemotion	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jwb	i'm just going to stay silent because i have nothing nice to say about any of that	<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
wwoods	fair 'nuff	<a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a>
wwoods	you may still reserve the right to say "toldja so" if something really terrible actually happens	<a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a>
jwb	no, that's not what i'm thinking	<a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a>
f13	can we at least agree to the proposal?	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
jwb	basically, public shaming didn't work for the first beta freeze date.  what makes us think it'll work now?	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
jwb	f13, +1	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
jeremy	f13: +1	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
wwoods	+1 to the proposal	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
notting	f13: +1, i suppose. not really any other option	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
spot	+1	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
lmacken	f13: +1	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
f13	alright, that's probably good for Beta.	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - Open Discussion		<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
notting	adjusting final as well?	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
f13	the floor is open	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
f13	notting: I wish we wouldn't have to	<a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a>
f13	or I'd rather not that is	<a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a>
jwb	i wanted to talk about spins, but that's going to take too long	<a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a>
f13	notting: if we don't slip final, that still gives us 3 weeks from beta release to final freee	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
warren	let's discuss the final schedule next week?	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
f13	that doesn't seem terribly unreasonable.	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
jeremy	yeah, I'd like to get to looking at the doom that is sysfs	<a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a>
jwb	huh?	<a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a>
notting	jeremy: that's a little large of a project for a few weeks	<a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a>
notting	doom_level(sysfs) == MAX_INT	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
jeremy	true... and "want" is probably strong	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
jeremy	but I'd like to get the @!#$ bug fixed	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
f13	alright, close of meeting	<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>

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