[17:05:52] Time for the KDE SIG meeting. [17:05:58] Many important things to discuss, so can we get started? [17:06:53] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - Init". [17:07:02] So who's present? [17:07:46] present [17:08:17] rdieter, than: Ping? [17:08:19] me [17:10:06] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - gcc 4.3 and KDE 4". [17:10:29] Kevin_Kofler: pong [17:10:40] Let's start with this one: there's a vague report of KDE 4.0 getting miscompiled by GCC 4.3: http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/Upstream_Issues (last one on the list) [17:11:01] As we're going to have GCC 4.3 in F9 soon, this may become a problem for us. [17:11:31] Unfortunately, the report is really vague and there's no useful testcase, Jakub says he can't do anything with it and I'd be inclined to agree with him. [17:11:48] I think there's not much we can do there there other than "wait and see". [17:12:36] isn't it possible to build kde with 4.2? [17:12:43] Beenden fab hat den Server verlassen ("Leaving"). [17:13:05] It's probably possible to build with whatever compat-gcc there will be, possibly 3.4. [17:13:11] But that's not a great solution. [17:13:23] We'd much rather get GCC 4.3 fixed. [17:13:30] Kevin_Kofler: it should be built with default gcc [17:13:45] than: +1 [17:14:22] It is clear that this is caused by bugs in gcc? Or are there some incompatible changes? [17:14:34] there's no problem for jakub to fix it when we have a good reproduce for the bug [17:15:18] svahl: It might be a GCC bug or a bug in the code (e.g. aliasing problems) triggered by the new GCC. [17:15:43] Betreten chiui hat den Kanal betreten (n=Kiwi@151.16.82.225). [17:15:52] it could be gcc-4.3 miscompiles kde4 and cause many apps ramdomly crashes [17:15:52] I'd really like to know who added the wiki entry and if they have any more information they can share. Unfortunately the techbase history for the page shows only an IP address for that edit. [17:16:22] I think it's probably a compiler bug, but we can only be sure once we debugged it. [17:17:34] ok. thx. [17:18:23] as I've understood your mail on kde-redhat-devel-list the problem would be crashing applications. So should we release updated packages then for wider testing? [17:18:33] I have some understanding of the GCC dumps due to my work on TIGCC, so if it has to be, I can do some debugging, but I'd rather have an isolated testcase and let the GCC folks worry about it. [17:18:44] updated packages= just rebuilt against gcc-4.3 [17:19:01] Right now we don't have 4.3 in Rawhide, only in a scratch build. [17:19:05] So it's a bit hard to build with it. [17:19:31] But once we have it in Rawhide, the problem will be all the more pressing. It's one of these "can't win" cases. [17:19:41] * svahl should follow the links in mails more often [17:19:57] we should wait till gcc-4.3 is moved into rawhide [17:20:02] Is it known when it hits rawhide? [17:20:08] sure [17:20:33] Ask Jakub, I don't know when he plans to introduce it exactly. [17:20:59] let me ask jakub when he want to move it in rawhide [17:21:36] sorry, pre-occupied a bit this morning... [17:22:14] Anything to add about the GCC issue? If not, let's move on. [17:23:03] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - development progress: the road to kde4". [17:24:10] So where we are now is that out of the KDE4Status stuff, only kdeadmin is left out of the non-extragear modules. [17:24:55] yeah, looks like kdeadmin is the last major missing piece. [17:25:32] For the extragear stuff, kaider is waiting on CVS module creation and extragear-plasma on the review (svahl is going to prepare a 3.97.0 version, hopefully that'll be easy to review then, 3.96.2 unfortunately doesn't build against kdebase-workspace-3.97.0). [17:25:51] Kevin_Kofler: 3.97.0 builds fine [17:26:02] Great. [17:26:10] FYI: scratch build: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=288044 [17:26:24] kdeadmin was built fine on my local machine [17:26:42] Great too. [17:26:47] My problem atm is to figure out how to package the language files (%find_lang not really usefull here, many different names) [17:27:27] Betreten fab hat den Kanal betreten (n=bellet@monkey.creatis.insa-lyon.fr). [17:27:48] One thing we should talk about (even if it's opening a can of worms): I think we'll want to eventually drop most of kdebase3-devel. [17:27:49] svahl: I can help with that, we can script that a bit. [17:27:59] Kevin_Kofler: agreed [17:28:09] thx. I'll ping you after the meeting [17:28:12] libkonq is useful there, but stuff to build KWin 3, Konqueror 3, Kicker etc. plugins isn't. [17:29:16] Once we have something in which properly Obsoletes it (extragear-plasma), I'll change kdeaddons to have the contents I originally planned to have in kdeaddons3: only kdeaddons-atlantikdesigner. [17:29:40] That'll obsolete kdeaddons-extras (it's already the only thing in kdeaddons-extras as of now as I disabled the noatun plugins due to no more noatun). [17:29:56] The main kdeaddons package should just go away. [17:30:11] Any objections to that plan? [17:30:25] Betreten tibbs hat den Kanal betreten (n=tibbs@fedora/tibbs). [17:30:39] Kevin_Kofler: agreed [17:30:41] kdeaddons-atlantikdesigner will be useful/usable with atlantik in kdegames3, so I want to keep that and I already essentially have the spec for that. [17:31:06] The rest is obsolete, and most of it is replaced by stuff in extragear. [17:31:06] Kevin_Kofler: Why not just keep kdeaddons3 (that includes atlantikdesigner), and Obsoletes: kdeaddons ? [17:31:38] Why do we need a rename if there's never going to be a kdeaddons 4? [17:32:08] There's no ambiguity there, just as kdepimlibs4 or kdebase4-runtime wasn't decided to be useful. [17:32:33] OK, then keep kdeaddons. [17:32:50] have it Obsoletes all previous subpkgs. [17:32:57] that don't exist anymore. [17:33:14] I think extragear-plasma is the best place to obsolete the main kdeaddons package, actually. [17:33:17] I'm just uncomfortable having extragear-plasma doing that. [17:33:45] atlantikdesigner isn't a replacement for what was in kdeaddons, extragear-plasma mostly is. [17:34:12] The rest is other extragear modules (the next discussion topic will be how to package these), namely extragear-base and extragear-pim. [17:34:13] old kdeaddons had atlantic designer, so it's a perfect fit. [17:34:25] No it didn't. It was in kdeaddons-extras. [17:34:41] And I want kdeaddons-atlantikdesigner to obsolete that, indeed. [17:35:13] shrug, I just don't see extragear-plasma as truly Obsoleting what was kdeaddons, marking it as such seems artificial to me. [17:35:38] I don't feel strongly. [17:35:56] If you look at the list of what was in there: [17:36:01] * konq-plugins: akregator, babelfish, domtreeviewer, imagerotation, validators, webarchiver [17:36:06] This stuff is now in extragear-base. [17:36:10] * kate (plugins) [17:36:19] This is in kdesdk along with Kate itself, no more addons needed. [17:36:24] * kicker-applets: kbinaryclock, kolourpicker, ktimemon, mediacontrol [17:36:24] * knewsticker-scripts [17:36:26] Beenden fab hat den Server verlassen ("Leaving"). [17:36:34] brb, kids yelling... [17:36:35] And the closest equivalent for these is extragear-plasma. [17:36:59] Betreten JSchmitt hat den Kanal betreten (n=s4504kr@p54B1023E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de). [17:37:31] Then there was ksig, a very small app which is now in extragear-pim (actually the only app in that module, so it essentially is extragear-pim). [17:38:14] But to pick one extragear module, as we need one successor or we'll only confuse depsolvers, I'd say plasma is the best one to pick. [17:38:27] ok, was looking at it primarily from a packaging-only perspective, that we want to get rid of the kdeaddons-* namespace as simply as possible. [17:38:29] I'm thinking of upgrades there, it's the one most likely to be useful. [17:38:47] looks like you're looking at it primarily from an upgrade path perspective. [17:38:51] Right. [17:39:20] ok, you win. :) [17:39:28] move on... [17:39:38] I just don't think having kdeaddons (main package) replaced by atlantikdesigner which wasn't even in it makes any sense at all. ;-) [17:39:56] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - extragear packaging". [17:40:02] I was advocating having only a 'kdeaddons' pkg, that contained nothing but atlantik*. [17:40:38] kiss [17:41:32] I added this one to the agenda, so I'll explain: I think we'll really want some of the stuff from extragear packaged. [17:42:24] My #1 priority is the stuff which was in one of the KDE 3 core modules and is now in extragear, as we don't want to lose our apps, especially stuff like kmid which has no real alternative. [17:43:03] while nice, I'd argue this should be considered lower priority, focus on main modules, integration, polish. [17:43:07] Other than what we have already (extragear-plasma, sdk/kaider), I think we'll want at least these: [17:43:18] There's a reason this stuff is (still) in extragear afterall. [17:43:21] * extragear-base (all of it, or all that works, it's Konqueror plugins) [17:43:40] * extragear-graphics: at least kiconedit and kcoloredit [17:43:55] I don't want focus/integration/polish lost for the sole reason to "avoid lost apps" [17:43:57] Maybe some people will want to see Ligature, it's a bit redundant with Okular though. [17:44:13] I will have a look at kaudiocreator (because I'm using that for myself) [17:44:15] * extragear-multimedia: at least kmid and kaudiocreator [17:44:52] * pim/ksig (used to be in kdeaddons and we're killing that except for atlantikdesigner which has no KDE 4 version) [17:46:14] Beenden fcrippa hat den Server verlassen ("Leaving"). [17:46:19] Than suggested that for the modules where there's more than one app in it, we ship them as e.g. extragear-multimedia. [17:46:54] svahl: Do you think you can do an extragear-multimedia package containing both kaudiocreator and kmid? [17:47:13] I'll have a try [17:47:59] rdieter: Look at what other distros are shipping, openSUSE has lots of extragear stuff, probably even more than my list. [17:48:23] Betreten ljuwaidah hat den Kanal betreten (n=laith@85.154.44.18). [17:48:32] Kevin_Kofler: shrug, I'm only suggesting that we not over-extend ourselves. [17:48:37] sorry guys [17:48:45] I was out, svahl, I just saw your reminder [17:48:57] focus on getting the main stuff done good/right *first*, then move on to this kind of stuff. [17:49:23] You may have a point there, extragear stuff can be added even as an update fairly safely. [17:49:49] I'd rather have a smaller set of packages/apps done at high quality and good polish, than having lots done with less quality, that's all. [17:50:21] Betreten spoleeba hat den Kanal betreten (n=one@fedora/Jef). [17:50:51] right, extragear stuff can be added piecemeal, pretty much at any time. [17:50:54] maybe we could announce the extragear packages to fedora-devel-list and seeking for new maintainers [17:51:10] I'm not saying earlier/now is bad necessarily, I just don't want it taking away from the bigger picture here. [17:51:24] svahl: +1, great idea. :) [17:51:35] svahl: That may be a good idea, compared to core KDE 4 modules, they shouldn't be that hard to package. [17:51:54] Let's move on, we're running out of time and there's another item left. [17:51:57] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/common and kdelibs3 - kdelibs-common package". [17:52:06] So we have this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=417251 [17:52:07] Bug 417251: medium, medium, ---, Ngo Than, NEW , [RFE] Please support the directory /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/common [17:53:03] kdelibs3 is missing stuff because it's in kdelibs, but we really don't want kdelibs3 to drag in all of kdelibs 4, that would suck for those only using one KDE 3 app (e.g. Amarok 1.4). [17:53:29] the idea I had was to omit this from kdelibs3 (done), build kdelibs(4)-common including that, and have kdelibs3 Requires: kdelibs-common [17:53:38] Betreten J5 hat den Kanal betreten (i=quintice@nat/redhat/x-57966db81f268a24). [17:53:47] Right, that's what I also suggested. [17:53:58] kdelibs (4) will have to require kdelibs-common too of course. [17:54:00] Kevin_Kofler: your idea is good, we should do it [17:54:15] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [17:54:27] So we all agree here, then let's do it. :-) [17:54:47] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-11 - Open Discussion". [17:55:06] So, last 5 minutes, if you have anything else to bring up, now is the time. :-) [17:55:16] i'm still working on kde-10n, it's not yet ready now [17:55:20] my current package list for the livecd: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList [17:55:34] than: what was "useless" in the pkgconfig dir of kdeadmin pkg? [17:55:55] i hope to get it ready by tomorrow [17:55:55] than: Good, take your time, don't rush a broken spec, it'll just make the review take longer. ;-) [17:55:59] we have firefox again and no kdepim in there atm. so space is exploding again [17:56:19] rdieter: I've been wondering that again. [17:56:37] rdieter: pkgconfig is useless here, it has to be removed [17:56:53] rdieter: not kdeadmin pkg ;-) [17:56:57] s/again/too/ [17:57:05] than: what was it that was removed ? [17:57:25] pkgconfig config file was removed [17:57:30] But why? [17:57:40] I know, what was it exactly? I'm only curious. [17:57:41] Why don't we need that? Upstream probably ships it for a reason. [17:58:04] i don't see where it's used [17:58:18] svahl: Why no kdepim? No room? [17:58:33] just forgotten it :) [17:58:51] I'm spinning a new one atm. but size would be >700 [17:59:10] Also why Firefox? Is it being dragged in by something again? (If so, time for a new bug report.) [17:59:43] If not, can we please leave that out and keep more space for KDE stuff? We want people to try out Konqueror 4, not to use Firefox. ;-) [18:00:04] Verlassen chiui hat den Kanal verlassen. [18:00:07] anaconda -> system-config-date -> yelp -> xulrunner/firefox (I i remember correclty) [18:00:13] rdieter: it's pkgconfig/system-tools-backends.pc [18:00:19] svahl: Ugh... [18:00:26] Again those deps on yelp. [18:00:27] Kevin_Kofler: sure. I'm not happy about firefox (again) [18:00:44] There shouldn't be any deps on yelp. [18:00:55] Let's file a bug (again, sigh...). [18:01:44] system-config-date shouldn't require yelp. [18:02:53] definitely file a bug [18:03:16] was that finally decided? [18:03:25] I thought that was a back/forth craptastic adventure? [18:04:27] Kevin_Kofler: IMHO system-config-date is the best start for breaking this. I'll file a bug against it [18:05:57] Folks, we're over time already, so this is the last chance to add something. :-) [18:06:51] svahl: Can you please take care of the log and summary as usual? [18:06:54] Beenden sankarshan hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). [18:06:58] Kevin_Kofler: sure [18:07:23] So that was all for today, if you have more things to discuss, there's #fedora-kde. [18:07:25] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule".