[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:04:54] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - Init".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:05:07] <Kevin_Kofler>	So let's start. Who's present?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:05:35] <gbcox>	Gerald Cox
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:06:02] <svahl>	present
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:06:09] <ltinkl>	present
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:06:12] <rdieter>	yo
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:06:18] <Kevin_Kofler>	than: Ping?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:08:04] <Kevin_Kofler>	Let's start.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:08:11] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - Waves desktop background".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:08:38] <rdieter>	fyi, see also #439811
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:08:54] <rdieter>	bug #439811 that is... (hrm)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:08:55] <buggbot>	Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=439811 low, low, ---, Ray Strode, NEW , + waves.svg
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:09:29] <Kevin_Kofler>	Do we really need the svgs?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:09:36] <Kevin_Kofler>	They take a long time to render.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:09:36] <rdieter>	basically, once we have that available, we can point to it as our default kde4 background.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:10:37] <Kevin_Kofler>	AFAIK, all of KDE's own backgrounds are in some bitmapped format.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:10:51] <rdieter>	well no, svg's aren't required, but will save worrying about resolution
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:12:00] <Kevin_Kofler>	Aren't proportions (i.e. 4:3 vs. 5:4 (1280x1024) vs. 16:9 vs. whatever) still a problem even with SVGs?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:12:42] <rdieter>	yes, it scales.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:13:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	Sure it scales, but a circle will still lose circularity if you stretch it, even if it's represented in a vector format.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:15:33] <than>	rdieter: present
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:15:40] <rdieter>	shrug, we can test both options (svg vs png) to see which works best.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:16:25] <rdieter>	I'll see about snagigng the svg's from the wiki, and test things after meeting.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:18:25] <Kevin_Kofler>	OK.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:18:29] <Kevin_Kofler>	Let's move on then?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:18:55] <rdieter>	yes, one last fyi: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes/Waves/Round3Final
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:19:37] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - New xine-lib PA plugin - bug #439731".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:19:44] <Kevin_Kofler>	http://bugzilla.redhat.com/439731
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:19:48] <Kevin_Kofler>	http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pa-plugin-for-xine.html
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:20:06] <Kevin_Kofler>	Basically, Lennart has unbroken the native PA plugin for xine-lib.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:20:22] <Kevin_Kofler>	Currently, we're hacking Phonon to use the ALSA default device, which happens to be the PA plugin.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:20:33] <Kevin_Kofler>	We'll probably want to use the native PA plugin if it works.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:21:10] <than>	Kevin_Kofler: did someone try native PA plugin?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:21:31] <rdieter>	than: not yet.  xine-lib isn't patched/fixed yet.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:21:40] <Kevin_Kofler>	We need to disable the Phonon code which marks the PA backend as "advanced" and bump the priority.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:21:44] <Kevin_Kofler>	Of course only if it really works.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:22:17] <Kevin_Kofler>	The contingency plan is to stay with the current ALSA solution, for which I haven't received any more complaints lately, so I guess the bugs with it have been fixed in ALSA or PA.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:23:02] <rdieter>	and then we'll adjust kde-settings-pulseaudio deps accordingly, if needed.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:24:20] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: Once we have the new xine-lib in (and preferably tested with something like Amarok so we don't waste time enabling a broken backend), tell me and I'll update my Phonon patch.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:24:33] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: okie dokie
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:24:50] <Kevin_Kofler>	I guess I'll keep the default device with higher priority and bump PA to even higher priority if available.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:25:57] <rdieter>	related: kdemultimedia3-artsplugins (arts xineplugin will get to use this too)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:26:48] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - kdemultimedia3 pkg review bug #439701".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:26:55] <Kevin_Kofler>	That would be this topic. :-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:27:00] <Kevin_Kofler>	http://bugzilla.redhat.com/439701
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:27:31] <Kevin_Kofler>	First question: is anything in F9 actually using these plugins?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:27:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	If all aRts is being used for is playing back some harcoded sounds in formats supported by base aRts, the package is useless.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:28:29] <rdieter>	nod, there's still a few kde3 apps around that link against arts
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:28:59] <Kevin_Kofler>	Second question: if we're building a kdemultimedia3 anyway, maybe we should also ship libkcddb for tellico to build against?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:29:03] <than>	rdieter: which kde3 apps still using this?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:29:10] <rdieter>	I'd (still) argue having the arts-xineplugin for the PA integration will be worth it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:29:42] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: nod, libkcddb could be added/included too, but I'm still of the opinion it's not worth including (for just 1 app)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:29:51] <rdieter>	no strong feelings tho.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:31:13] <rdieter>	than: repoquery --alldeps --whatrequires arts  (turns up a not insignificant list)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:31:58] <rdieter>	including koffice (?), basket, k3b, taxipilot and a few others ... ok pretty small list
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:32:32] <Kevin_Kofler>	In k3b, it's optional and could be disabled completely.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:32:42] <Kevin_Kofler>	K3b does its own decoding and outputs through ALSA by default.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:32:53] <Kevin_Kofler>	The others probably just play hardcoded sounds.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:33:04] <Kevin_Kofler>	Well, maybe KOffice can play embedded sounds in presentations?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:33:10] <than>	rdieter: imo the apps should be rebuild without arts support
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:33:25] <rdieter>	ok, let's keep this off the table then.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:33:28] <Kevin_Kofler>	At least taxipilot doesn't build without aRts.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:33:46] <Kevin_Kofler>	But I don't think it needs the plugins from kdemultimedia3.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:34:11] <Kevin_Kofler>	It just needs it to play hardcoded game sounds, so no format plugins needed unless the sounds are in a format not supported by default.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:34:23] <rdieter>	otoh, either we should include arts and make it work right (with xineartsplugin) or remove it altogether.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:35:00] <Kevin_Kofler>	Well, xine-lib in aRts is for decoding.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:35:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	Maybe even video only?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:35:32] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: video too, not playback tho?  so xine-lib-pulseaudio won't help here?  darn. (I think you're right)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:35:44] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think aRts outputs to a device independently of plugins.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:35:59] <rdieter>	well, crap then.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:36:11] <Kevin_Kofler>	We just need to keep it outputting to ALSA as we're doing now.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:36:11] <rdieter>	nevermind. me.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:36:27] <Kevin_Kofler>	Hopefully we can get rid of the annoying CPU overload problem though...
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:36:43] <rdieter>	ok, I'll keep it around (in case), but propose to pull the pkg from review for now.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:37:05] <Kevin_Kofler>	+1
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:37:18] <than>	+1
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:37:19] 	 * rdieter hasn't seen the "CPU overload" warning/error in a *long* time.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:37:57] <Kevin_Kofler>	On my system (fully updated F8), I can reproduce it by booting it, starting a Konsole and then not doing anything.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:38:22] <Kevin_Kofler>	aRts and PA will happily share 80%+ of the CPU, until aRts notices it's hogging CPU and panics.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:38:25] <rdieter>	shrug, I'm on f9/rawhide
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:38:43] <gbcox>	is there a bug number, i haven't seen this
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:38:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	I guess you aren't seeing it because on F9, aRts will only start up when a KDE 3 app needs it, not on bootup.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:38:55] <rdieter>	if it continues to be a problem, maybe we can just patch out the arts warning?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:02] <Kevin_Kofler>	So that should make this much less of an annoyance.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:10] <than>	Kevin_Kofler: i did not see the problem here
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:17] <Kevin_Kofler>	We could patch out the CPU watchdog, but aRts shouldn't be eating that much CPU in the first place. ;-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:26] <Kevin_Kofler>	(It really does eat CPU, KSensors confirms it.)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:36] <Kevin_Kofler>	(As does top.)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:51] <Kevin_Kofler>	than: It only happens under some conditions.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:39:56] <Kevin_Kofler>	In normal system use, it never happens here.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:40:05] <Kevin_Kofler>	Only if I'm not doing anything else. Very strange.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:41:03] <Kevin_Kofler>	Anyway, it should be much less of a problem in F9 because aRts will usually not run.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:41:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	Only if a KDE 3 app needs it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:41:23] <Kevin_Kofler>	So the condition may be triggered only very rarely or never, hopefully.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:41:57] <Kevin_Kofler>	In any case, until we can figure out what the problem is, we can't do much about it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:42:11] <Kevin_Kofler>	So anything else about aRts? Or let's move on?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:42:22] <rdieter>	move_on++
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:42:48] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - State of konq-plugins".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:42:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	http://bugzilla.redhat.com/438126
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:42:59] <Kevin_Kofler>	(review request)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:43:19] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd really like konq-plugins to get into F9 GA if we can manage it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:43:39] <than>	how stable are these apps?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:43:51] <svahl>	rdieter: you've said in a former meeting that you maybe have a look at it?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:08] <Kevin_Kofler>	They could use some testing, rdieter volunteered. :-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:11] <svahl>	than: at least the searchbar is working. The rest should be testet
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:14] <rdieter>	ok, that sounds like something I might say (sorry, forgot)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:18] <rdieter>	:)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:21] <svahl>	np :)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:27] <rdieter>	I'll try it out after meeting.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's also this question: "akregator plugin: This plugin is useless without kdepim. But IMHO a "Require: kdepim" for the whole package is too much. So the plugin should maybe splitted into a sub package."
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:52] <than>	we should avoid broken plugins that cause more problem for konqueror
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:44:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	What's the best approach there?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:45:07] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd be inclined to just put Requires: kdepim on the entire package.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:45:17] <rdieter>	punt, by omitting akgregator plugin for now, revisit later. :)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:45:31] <svahl>	than: I agree
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:45:46] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: -1
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:46:17] <Kevin_Kofler>	(Assuming the plugin actually works of course), omitting useful plugins because of a Requires debate is a bad idea.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:46:47] <rdieter>	or just make it (kdepim) optional, but not a hard dep.  Mention in pkg description that akgregator plugin required kdepim to be installed for full/proper functionality, and leave it at that.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:47:01] <Kevin_Kofler>	The current kdeaddons just includes the plugin without a dependency.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:47:45] <rdieter>	current = f8's kdeaddons ?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:47:56] <Kevin_Kofler>	Yes.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:48:10] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's no current kdeaddons in Rawhide. ;-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:48:21] <Kevin_Kofler>	(only kdeaddons-atlantikdesigner)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:48:22] <rdieter>	I'd propose we do the same here (in rawhide/f9)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:48:25] <svahl>	f8's kdeaddons has no dep on kdepim
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:48:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	Yes, and it also contains the akregator plugin.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:49:12] 	 * rdieter just confirmed kickoff < -- > simple menu switching works. wee!
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:50:02] <Kevin_Kofler>	It's called "Kickoff" because the first thing you do to it is kick it off your desktop. ;-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:50:35] <rdieter>	arg, konq-plugins scratch builds got garbage-collected, it seems
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:51:34] <Kevin_Kofler>	Koji is a bit too eager at GCing scratch builds. :-(
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:51:47] <svahl>	the scratchbuild woul also need a rebuilt against new kde-macros(abi)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:51:59] <Kevin_Kofler>	svahl: So can you issue a new one?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:52:10] <svahl>	sure
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:53:17] <svahl>	but what to do about the akregator plugin: use kdeaddons "solution", explain the (soft) dep in %description, create a subpkg or require kdepim directlyß
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:53:20] <svahl>	?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:54:03] <Kevin_Kofler>	IMHO it's pretty obvious that the Akregator plugin will only work if Akregator is actually installed. :-)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:54:12] <Kevin_Kofler>	I don't think a dependency is really needed.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:55:07] <svahl>	ok. but I think I'll add a short explanation to %description
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:55:23] <Kevin_Kofler>	Right, that's a good idea.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:55:29] <rdieter>	yup
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:56:32] <svahl>	I'll start a new scratchbuild right after the meeting
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:56:37] <svahl>	move on?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:56:51] <svahl>	oh. no more topics. :)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:56:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: If you find any breakage, report it in the review request, so we can fix or disable the breakage.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:57:28] <rdieter>	ok
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:57:38] <rdieter>	anyone else follow the thread on fedora-testers list ("No kde-3.5.x for F9?") ?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:57:56] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-01 - Open discussion".
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:58:17] <svahl>	FYI: I've not written a mail to fedora-art-list for requesting kdm and ksplash themes because, a) ksplash theme was added recently and b) Kevin_Kofler asked for kdm a few days earlier
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:58:46] <rdieter>	svahl: ksplash is already done. (??)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:06] <rdieter>	oh, duh, nevermind
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:12] <Kevin_Kofler>	I've seen the thread, I'm reading the new messages now.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:32] <svahl>	rdieter: see last meeting. I've said I would write a request for help mail
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:39] <svahl>	:)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:44] <than>	rdieter: link?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [18:59:44] <rdieter>	note to self, read, parse/comprehend, *then* respond.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:00:18] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think our position came across pretty clearly in that thread.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:00:21] <rdieter>	than: ksplash was added recently to fedora-logos, and I updated kde-settings to default to using it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:00:29] <rdieter>	than: theme = Waves
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:00:56] <svahl>	just one note about the ksplash theme: here the background from circles is displayed behind the ksplash theme. And this looks, uhm, pretty ugly.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:00:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd actually oppose someone else adding KDE 3.5.x packages too, it's going to be a mess which makes compat-python-24 look like a model of cleanliness.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:01:34] <rdieter>	https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-March/msg00198.html
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:01:54] <rdieter>	svahl: we'll sort that out once we have a kdm theme to adjust
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:02:08] <Kevin_Kofler>	The question is: will that happen?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:02:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	The artwork folks aren't very motivated AFAICS. Stalwart (the guy who did the KSplash theme) said he's trying, but he isn't sure he can deliver on time either.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:02:52] <svahl>	we could also disable the theme i kdm and use the waves desktop background then
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:03:18] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: my assistant here at work has made several kde3 kdm themes before, and will work on helping out here too
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:03:41] <rdieter>	svahl: +1 that's an option (better than using circles maybe)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:03:44] <tibbs>	So is FPC now?  I so hate DST.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:03:53] <rdieter>	tibbs: yep (I think)
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:05] <rdieter>	kde-sig'ers: we're out of time, better call it.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:07] <than>	Kevin_Kofler: what is so bad with circles?
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:20] <Kevin_Kofler>	It looks ugly and it isn't themed for Fedora.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:31] <Kevin_Kofler>	And you had to disable the userlist because it doesn't fit in.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:50] <svahl>	and it's breaking consistency: grub -> rhgb -> circles -> desktop background
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	We should have a userlist in F9.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:57] <rdieter>	well: by itelf, slightly ugly, but circles + waves ksplash is definitely ugly.
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:04:58] 	 * spot coughs
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:05:29] 	 * rdieter puts fpc hat on
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:05:38] 	 * rdieter curses that other group
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:05:40] 	 * hansg is present and waiting
[Di Apr 1 2008] [19:06:02] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting End".