[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:00:56] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- Init". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:01:55] ok, kde sig meeting start, who's present today? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:10] ping: than, ltinkl, Kevin_Kofler, svahl , foo* [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:11] present [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:14] * SMParrish here [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:15] here [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:26] Present. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:46] * Sonar_Guy peeks in [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:48] present [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:31] * rdieter thinks Sonar_Guy came for treats. :) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:40] * wwoods lurking [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:58] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:06] Kevin_Kofler: I assume you added that one? thoughts? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:20] topic 1: DeviceKit [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:28] So the thing is, they're planning to replace HAL with DeviceKit. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:56] Most of HAL will still be available, but disk management conflicts with DeviceKit-disks (they'd fight over the disks). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:11] So they want to get all the code using HAL for disk management ported. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:17] This affects at least Solid. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:50] The problem is that upstream Solid (like upstream of all the other affected packages, really) has no DeviceKit support yet. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:59] that feature page has been updated a bit since last I looked at it, I *had* been under the impression that hal/DeviceKit wouldn't be mutually exclusive [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:07:32] ouchie, imo, the feature completion of : 50% is optimistic/hopeful, at best, considering how many packages are affected, that potentially need to be ported/fixed. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:15] They wouldn't be mutually exclusive for most things, but the disk parts would probably be. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:33] right, sorry, that's what I meant. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:48] Though in the Talk page, they have been discussing how to make them coexist as a contingency solution if they can't get things ported. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:09:26] The problem is also that their list is incomplete, at least Solid is missing, probably other stuff too. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:10:01] They only analyzed the packages which had a dependency on HAL libraries, but Solid uses the generic Qt 4 D-Bus binding to talk to HAL, not HAL libs. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:15] The talk page has no feedback from davidz either, sigh. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:47] I'd assume that davidz was busy with GUADEC and might not be back yet? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:52] you should have asked davidz to be present [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:12:10] wwoods: nod, that's probably it [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:45] Pragmatically, without maintaining hal compatibility (which Matthias hinted at), I don't see a prayer of this feature landing. Nor I do I see enough time to get that many pkgs ported (esp the kde ones). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:45] What annoys me is that we've barely completed the migration from Kudzu to HAL and now it's set to be replaced again. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:57] This churn in core system components is becoming a real problem. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:14:10] but that's just IMHO of cource [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:15:19] we don't really have the resources to help (much) here either, heck our plates are already full. (maybe than and/or ltinkl could chime in) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:15:45] It's possible that there will be compatibility libraries/interfaces provided [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:16:02] I'd have the knowledge to do the port, but I don't really have the time. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:16:59] wwoods: nod, imo there's no other real option, there's simply too much to get done in too little a time-frame. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:17:29] right, unless davidz knows something we don't, porting everything on that list is going to take *way* more than 4-5 weeks [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:04] wait the list is "wrong" [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:12] it lists everything that uses hal [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:20] not all of them has to be ported [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:27] "only" the disk ones [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:34] drago01_: nod, someone needs to confirm each app's use of hal. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:35] But some stuff which is not on the list has to be ported, too. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:48] which is more not-yet-done stuff to do [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:51] Like Solid's HAL support (IIRC in kdelibs). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:04] yeah we need a better/more usefull list [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:10] It's not listed because it doesn't link the HAL libraries, it uses the HAL D-Bus interfaces through QtDBus. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:58] Another problem is that DeviceKit is not even packaged yet. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:29] solid is listed [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:33] doh, ok, let's move on then. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:35] under Dependencies [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:46] "Solid's (KDE's) disk management also needs to be ported to DeviceKit-disks. " [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:15] no point in continuing to beat this to death. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:43] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- Live images for F10 Alpha, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:54] topic 2: Live images for F10 Alpha [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:56] svahl? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:12] drago01_: I added that, but it's not in the list of affected packages. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:17] As you know I wasn't involved in recent development. So someone has to review my package list [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:27] Kevin_Kofler: ok [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:29] main problem is the limited space (again) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:47] always. :) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:57] for now koffice was removed completely because koffice-libs pulls in koffice-krita [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:23:31] also kaffeine (dragon player) and ktorrent (kget) is gone (compared to f9) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:23:50] one goal here could be to make the image kde3-free, would save a bit. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:08] Getting rid of GNOME panel applets could help too. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:15] I'm continuing to work on koffice dep issues. it's painful, but it'll get done. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:20] It might get us rid of gnome-panel and its many deps. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:46] will there be a kde4 port of k3b in the neir future? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:54] On the other hand, using printer-applet would also mean dragging in PyKDE4. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:55] yeah, there's a painful dep chain in there, I haven't bugged about yet (rats). something -> gnome-panel -> libgweather [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:25:19] PyKDE4 isn't very big though, we already have python. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:25:29] + possibly using guidance-power-manager [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:09] Anybody interested in packaging KPackageKit? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:28] svahl: it'll come eventually, not sure about for F-10 though, I'll ping upstream (though, grr, he hasn't responded to my lsst few inquiries on the k3b ml) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:38] We also have to look at the current state of knetworkmanager and the NM plasmoid. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:47] Those are 2 potential alternatives for NetworkManager-gnome. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:09] Kevin_Kofler: does NetworkManager-gnome pull in much gnome stuff that would otherwise not be in? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:16] I can take alook at kpackagekit [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:21] Kevin_Kofler: nod, if we're going to be kde3-free, knetworkmanger isn't an option, so imo nm-applet or nm plasmoid is the way to go [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:55] I think kdelibs3 is the lesser evil compared to gnome-panel. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:13] There's still useful stuff using kdelibs3. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:17] k3b, konversation, ... [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:41] I think F10 is too early to drop kdelibs3 from the live image. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:49] we can dream. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:54] :) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:29:21] or, gasp, consider again to not limit ourselves to a cd-sized image. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:29:56] Even though I would like to lose kdelibs3, would be hard to replace k3b IMHO [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:30:27] SMParrish: agreed [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:30:47] I think we can't drop kdelibs3 from the live image before at least F11. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:31:08] (And we won't be able to drop it from the distro entirely for a long time.) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:31:34] no one is suggesting dropping it from the distro (yet, anyway) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:32:51] so, what about image size? can we discuss the pros/cons of dropping cd size? any chance of that yet? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:33:53] I vote strongly for cd-sized images (at least for i686) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:34:25] between, dvd's and usb's, it's conceivably an option for many (most?) folks. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:34:55] svahl: then maintain *2* spins? that's arguably worse. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:35:08] svahl: why do you feel that way (still)? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:35:55] I'd suggest we first try to get rid of the GNOME stuff we no longer need. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:05] And if that doesn't bring the size down enough, we can revisit this. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:15] For the alpha, we can go with the current package list, it's just an alpha. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:34] main reason is that I'll be limited in testing the images when they are dvd-sized. And there's still the argument that dvd-roms are not as common as cd-roms [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:47] Kevin_Kofler: agreed [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:47] Getting rid of gnome-packagekit might save a lot of space. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:54] ok, we can continue discussion later. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:56] So let's get KPackageKit in. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:10] And we should also look at the NM stuff and at printer-applet. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:34] * rdieter thinks only gnome-panel/libweather is the only gnome dep that's big enough to make much difference [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:44] I think kerneloops could also be dropped. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:49] What's pulling that in in the first place? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:00] ok, we can continue discussion later, let's move on for now [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:09] Dropping that should be as simple as "-kerneloops" as there are no deps on it according to repoquery. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:23] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- EDU (kde-based) Spin update". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:41] Kevin_Kofler: I haven't checked that yet. Maybe comps.xml? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:58] That said, kerneloops isn't the worst dep offender. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:13] Well, it may become one once we replaced the other GNOME panel stuff. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:27] There's also setroubleshoot. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:57] that stuff is in the default live configs probably for a reason, should ask livecd list/folks first, before dropping stuff like that, imo. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:40:23] If we want to get rid of all GTK+ panel stuff, we'll have to zap those too. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:40:41] If we only want to replace what we have a replacement for, then of course not. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:41:24] the gnome-panel/libgweather chain can/should be broken via packge splits (if possible), before just dropping stuff willy nilly [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:41:53] But we should replace things we have a KDE replacement for either way. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:02] E.g. gnome-packagekit -> KPackageKit. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:08] of course [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:11] (Any volunteer to package that or will I have to do it?) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:35] SMParrish volunteered [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:47] OK [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:09] next topic was just a quick fyi, on edu spin status [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:14] SMParrish: Let us know once you have something ready for review. :-) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:27] kk will work on it today [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:21] the edu sig (with a bit of help from me) is trying to put out a (kde-based atm) edu spin, I had made a quick-n-dirty preview, but since I had based it on F-9 + kde-redhat, had to pull it (calling it fedora and using non-fedora packages and all). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:53] in the meantime, a feature page has been created, and ks configs are now in git, and plan is to get this ready for F-10. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:56] that's about it. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:25] any comments? (or move on?) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:42] could you give a link to the kickstart? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:58] Do you really think Red Hat would have sued one of their most active contributors over a trademark technicality? :-) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:47:03] no, because I wouldn't let it come to that. :) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:48:48] svahl: I don't have it handy, I'll find something after meeting [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:48:55] ok [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:49:37] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- PolicyKit patch update". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:49:46] topic: PolicyKit patch update [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:02] Kevin_Kofler: can you bring folks up to date on what you've been working on here? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:16] You mean the KDM ConsoleKit patch? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:51] yes [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:57] doh, [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:07] *Kit mixup [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:22] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- ConsolkeKit patch update". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:25] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- ConsoleKit patch update". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:03] Patrice Dumas (pertusus) has made a version of the patch which uses libck-connector instead of copied code from GDM. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:22] I fixed some bugs in that patch and it is now in Rawhide, it appears to work fine now. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:37] I think this version of the patch should be more palatable to upstream. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:53:22] It also solves the problem of how to enable ConsoleKit support: it is now enabled iff libck-connector is found (can be disabled on the cmake command line, as I use macro_optional_find_package). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:53:50] Of course in Fedora, it will always be found, I added a BR. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:55:25] a large point of this exercize is to find a ConsoleKit solution that's more acceptable to upstream kde (so we don't carry a patch forever). [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:06] Kevin_Kofler: many thanks for your efforts. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:40] See http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147790#c35 [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:42] Bug 147790: medium, medium, ---, Jindrich Novy, CLOSED RAWHIDE, "xwdtopnm: object too large" [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:00] (of course the buggbot line is nonsense) [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:12] Kevin_Kofler: thanks. [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:21] Looks like we're about out of time, any parting thoughts? [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:30] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- open discussion". [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:59] I was just goint to mention akademy 2008, where I'll be giving a talk on f9/kde, community building, upstream collaboration, yadda yadda [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:44] i am not sure if this is considered important: attempted F9 live cd on a Dell GX something with 733MHz and 256MB, and it was basically unuseable [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:51] rdieter:any chance it will be recorded/videoed [Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:55] have Fc5 + KDE on that machine for my bro right now [Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:01] SMParrish: hope so, was last year [Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:12] pembo13_work: take that back to #fedora-kde [Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:18] rdieter: ok [Di Jul 15 2008] [19:01:43] alrighty, let's end here, thanks all.