Sep 25 17:59:50 rdieter kde sig meeting start... first off, who's present today? Sep 25 18:00:08 Kevin_Kofler Me. Sep 25 18:00:13 rdieter svahl, than? Sep 25 18:00:21 svahl I'm here Sep 25 18:00:48 Kevin_Kofler Than is in the chan, but marked "away". Sep 25 18:02:16 rdieter been away a lot lately, bummer. Sep 25 18:02:24 rdieter ok, let's get started... Sep 25 18:02:44 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting -- Release Notes (freeze for that is on Oct 8) Sep 25 18:02:52 rdieter first item on agenda, Release notes. Sep 25 18:03:06 rdieter I assume this means we should have some. :) Sep 25 18:03:17 svahl yeah. It's just a reminder :) Sep 25 18:03:19 Kevin_Kofler We should have some at least for the KDE 4 SDK stuff. Sep 25 18:03:35 Kevin_Kofler Most of my update announcement for F7 can be reused there. Sep 25 18:03:41 rdieter maybe something close/verbatim to the blurb included in the kde4-update (bodhi) Sep 25 18:03:45 rdieter yep Sep 25 18:03:48 svahl I would suggest setting up a draft wiki page for that: eg SIGs/KDE/ReleaseNotes Sep 25 18:04:09 Kevin_Kofler A question is where in the release notes namespace do we want to put the blurb? Sep 25 18:04:16 Kevin_Kofler Desktop? Devel? Somewhere else entirely? Sep 25 18:04:46 svahl Maybe both? Desktop: No KDE4-workspace Devel: KDE4SDK? Sep 25 18:04:51 rdieter I'll have to familiarize myself with docs, wouldn't this be better to contribute directly, instead of keeping it separate? Sep 25 18:05:00 svahl mhh. sure Sep 25 18:05:03 Kevin_Kofler The official upstream name is "KDE 4 Development Platform", by the way, maybe we should match that. Sep 25 18:05:08 dwmw2 ObKDE: Can I poke someone to do some testing of kdebluetooth please? I'm making sure the GNOME side is in order, but I'm not really able to do KDE too. Sep 25 18:05:28 Kevin_Kofler "SDK" could also refer to kdesdk which we aren't even packaging yet, and which interestingly isn't part of the upstream Development Platform either. Sep 25 18:05:30 rdieter dwmw2: ok Sep 25 18:05:50 rdieter dwmw2: I'll poke around to find someone... Sep 25 18:05:53 dwmw2 ta. Sep 25 18:06:09 * svahl has no bluetooth device available for testing Sep 25 18:06:17 Kevin_Kofler Me neither. Sep 25 18:06:27 rdieter KDE4 Development Platform it is (my bad for using incorrect nominclature in my blog...) Sep 25 18:07:09 dwmw2 you can get usb dongles for €20 or so. Or get a PS3 :) Sep 25 18:09:01 Kevin_Kofler What's missing from the official development platform, by the way, is the new kdebindings, that's not really ready yet, and it also depends on at least PyQt4. Sep 25 18:09:18 * rdieter nods. Sep 25 18:09:19 Kevin_Kofler And of course we have no package yet. ;-) Sep 25 18:09:40 rdieter good news it has almost passed review, it's currently stuck on a sip bug on 64bit platforms. Sep 25 18:10:20 rdieter the old /usr/lib vs. /usr/lib64 icky-ness. Sep 25 18:11:06 rdieter so, job/action item: insert "kde4 dev platform" blurb into release notes, any volunteers for this task? Sep 25 18:11:16 Kevin_Kofler "Maybe both? Desktop: No KDE4-workspace Devel: KDE4SDK?" -> I think that's the right thing, yes, we should put a short paragraph into desktop explaining that the full KDE 4 desktop isn't there, but pointing to the blurb in Devel too. Sep 25 18:11:39 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: sounds good... Sep 25 18:12:01 Kevin_Kofler I can take care of it, I wrote the announcement in Bodhi already, so why not the release notes too? :-) Sep 25 18:12:23 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: thanks, anything else here or move on? Sep 25 18:12:38 Kevin_Kofler Let's move on, we have a lot to discuss today. Sep 25 18:12:50 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting -- Package list for LiveCD Sep 25 18:12:55 rdieter Package list, svahl? Sep 25 18:13:11 svahl current one: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList Sep 25 18:13:16 rdieter sounds like we have some space to add pkgs? Sep 25 18:13:33 svahl this one is already with the requested krita Sep 25 18:13:41 rdieter nice. Sep 25 18:13:50 svahl and the kdebase-extras stuff on f8test2 was my mistake Sep 25 18:14:07 rdieter ok, thanks. Sep 25 18:14:26 rdieter how much free space do we have now? do you know? Sep 25 18:14:41 svahl with krita: ~12 megs Sep 25 18:15:07 svahl without krita: ~45 megs Sep 25 18:15:14 rdieter any other pkg suggestions? Sep 25 18:15:40 Kevin_Kofler Krusader maybe? Sep 25 18:15:42 svahl after test2 I've included ktorrent to match bittorrent-gui Sep 25 18:15:49 svahl good point Sep 25 18:15:59 svahl but that would be another file-manager Sep 25 18:16:09 svahl FYI: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/LiveCD Sep 25 18:16:24 svahl and suggestions for test3: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/LiveCD/Fedora-8-Test3-KDE-Live Sep 25 18:16:37 rdieter svahl: I'll addd ktorrent to default on kde-desktop group in comps as well. Sep 25 18:16:51 svahl good to know, thanks Sep 25 18:19:28 rdieter some optional bits from comps include: Sep 25 18:20:21 rdieter apollon, basket, kasablanca, kdetoys, krusader, kmenu-gnome, rss-glx-kde (the ones I know might by nice) Sep 25 18:20:52 rdieter doh, dolphin is still in there, should be d3lphin now, right? Sep 25 18:20:59 svahl think so Sep 25 18:21:33 svahl kmenu-gnome is small but maybe it is mixing the menu (there are only a few gnome packages atm) Sep 25 18:21:53 Kevin_Kofler Yes, dolphin has been obsoleted by d3lphin. Sep 25 18:22:07 svahl basket is also small but we have knotes (duplicaty functionality - ok partly) Sep 25 18:22:21 Kevin_Kofler I think kmenu-gnome is a bad idea actually. It's OK to have available of course, but a bad default. Sep 25 18:22:27 rdieter well, maybe worth soliciting suggestions on fedora-devel or fedora-desktop on what to add? Sep 25 18:22:32 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: nod Sep 25 18:22:36 svahl sure Sep 25 18:22:37 Kevin_Kofler The real solution would be to get rid of all those OnlyShowIn=GNOME. Sep 25 18:22:48 Kevin_Kofler Why should users care about what desktop the apps were written for? Sep 25 18:23:04 rdieter well, yeah. Sep 25 18:23:09 rdieter agreed. Sep 25 18:23:16 Kevin_Kofler That's relevant for the space taken on the live CD, but during actual use it's irrelevant. Sep 25 18:23:46 rdieter any opposition to making gtk-qt-engine default in kde-desktop? (I thought it was already, but apparently not) Sep 25 18:24:06 * rdieter is still talking about comps-f8, if it wasn't obvious. Sep 25 18:24:26 svahl is the gtk-qt-engine still breaking the icon disply in openoffice? Sep 25 18:24:40 rdieter :) sometimes, for some people (not me tho) Sep 25 18:24:54 svahl then I don't think this would be a good default Sep 25 18:25:16 Kevin_Kofler It also only works with some themes. (Try it with the Bluecurve Qt theme for some fun. Though of course it doesn't make much sense to use it for Bluecurve anyway. ;-) ) Sep 25 18:25:17 rdieter it depends on which style you're using, I think, the default style works. Sep 25 18:25:29 * svahl should test this again. I was one of this people Sep 25 18:25:43 Kevin_Kofler At least last I tried it (with Bluecurve as the Qt theme), there were tons of glitches. Sep 25 18:25:53 rdieter and, it gives users a nice gui to modify gtk2 theme used (which otherwise can't be done outside of gnome really). Sep 25 18:26:10 rdieter gtk-qt-engine is good at exposing theme/style bugs. :) Sep 25 18:27:06 rdieter ok, sounds like you 2 are against it. Sep 25 18:27:19 svahl what's the default setting in gtk-qt-engine atm: use kde-style in gnome apps or use gnome-style? Sep 25 18:27:24 rdieter anything else here pkglist/comps-wise? Sep 25 18:27:41 rdieter svahl: use kde-style is the default (we could change that tho) Sep 25 18:28:27 Kevin_Kofler Well, as long as it isn't set up as the default GTK+ theme, I'm not entirely opposed to gtk-qt-engine being available, I'm just a bit worried about users enabling it and complaining about the bugs. Sep 25 18:29:00 Kevin_Kofler I wouldn't set it up as the default though. Sep 25 18:29:00 svahl if we change it to use the gnome style as default then we also get the gkt theme changer withoud the problems with different themes Sep 25 18:29:13 svahl (correct me if my thinking is wrong here) Sep 25 18:29:22 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: that's not necessarily bad, like I said, the vast majority of glitches aren't in-fact, gtk-qt-engine bugs, but bugs in the themes it uses. Sep 25 18:29:24 Kevin_Kofler But if it works with Plastik with no glitches, then maybe we can actually make it default. Sep 25 18:29:46 rdieter svahl: right Sep 25 18:30:05 svahl thx Sep 25 18:30:38 rdieter well, think about it, let's move on for now... Sep 25 18:30:57 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting -- How to get more people involved in the KDE-SIG? Sep 25 18:31:15 Kevin_Kofler That's a tough one. Sep 25 18:32:45 rdieter svahl's wiki update helps a lot here, imo: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE#head-975c84ba88ed32e3fa78f2d66b7cf52d3148f79e Sep 25 18:32:56 svahl one problem may be that 16 people are listet in the wiki. but most of them are not active, Interested people may think: ok, that's enough Sep 25 18:33:25 Kevin_Kofler Maybe we should separate the list into developers and interested people? Sep 25 18:33:33 svahl +1 Sep 25 18:33:43 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: how would that help? Sep 25 18:34:07 Kevin_Kofler "Developers" or "contributors" or whatever should only be the ones actually actively participating. The problem is of course where to draw the line. Sep 25 18:34:22 rdieter does it really matter? (yes, I've been thinking about it too) Sep 25 18:35:03 rdieter I mean, who cares if the KDE SIG list includes some folks not very active? Sep 25 18:35:17 rdieter (I'm just thinking out loud)... Sep 25 18:35:33 Kevin_Kofler The main problem is that it includes some folks who I've never seen doing anything other than adding themselves to the list. Sep 25 18:35:36 svahl maybe people with spare time choose another sig then? Sep 25 18:35:59 rdieter svahl: good point, folks might get the impression we don't need help. Sep 25 18:37:10 rdieter I don't see any good from removing people from the list, at worst, may alienate them, when in fact they wanted to help/participate. Sep 25 18:37:30 Kevin_Kofler Right, there's a diplomatic problem there. Sep 25 18:37:39 svahl We should write to all the people listed and ask them if they want to be listed as "interested people" or "active developer" Sep 25 18:38:17 rdieter the only thing that may work to me, is to have varying levels of participation, right. interested vs developer. Not sure about labels. Sep 25 18:38:18 svahl we shouldn't remove them. just divide them into two (or more) groups Sep 25 18:38:41 rdieter another think to maybe think about awhile, I'm not sure exactly how I feel on that yet. Sep 25 18:39:02 Kevin_Kofler And maybe we should set some type of requirements to keep being listed as an active contributor (as opposed to just interested)? I've seen other SIGs requiring things like meeting attendance. On the other hand, that's a somewhat bureaucratic approach and may exclude people doing actual work. Sep 25 18:39:08 rdieter even splitting the list makes me a little nervous. Sep 25 18:39:41 svahl Kevin_Kofler, the ambassadors have had such a discussion. It was near to a flame war (afair) Sep 25 18:39:46 rdieter :) Sep 25 18:39:54 Kevin_Kofler We risk something like that too. Sep 25 18:39:57 rdieter So, what are ambassadors doing about it, anything? Sep 25 18:40:37 svahl AFAIK they haven't changed anything. The sugesstion was to mark ambassadors as active/inactive Sep 25 18:40:55 rdieter that's what I thought, let's table that for awhile too then. Sep 25 18:40:59 rdieter move on? Sep 25 18:41:00 svahl we shouldn't do so Sep 25 18:41:03 svahl ok Sep 25 18:41:26 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting -- Status of compiz-fusion Sep 25 18:41:35 rdieter that's a good question. is it even in rawhide yet? Sep 25 18:41:40 Kevin_Kofler Yes. Sep 25 18:41:48 Kevin_Kofler Doesn't it already Obsolete beryl, even? Sep 25 18:42:02 rdieter maybe (I haven't been following it closely) Sep 25 18:42:07 svahl compiz-fusion? yes. But the configuration parts for KDE are still missing (last time I've looked) Sep 25 18:42:09 rdieter if not, it probably should Sep 25 18:42:16 Kevin_Kofler I don't know much about that stuff though, I'm a proud user of good old KWin. Sep 25 18:42:40 rdieter since we don't have prospects on a kde equivalent of desktop-effects... (correct me if I'm wrong) Sep 25 18:43:24 rdieter I'll try to lobby the maintainer(s) to include compiz-icon (aka beryl-manager) Sep 25 18:43:50 svahl a few meetings ago somebody involved in the packaging was here (I can't remeber his name): He said, that the kde bits aren't ready yet Sep 25 18:43:51 rdieter other distros (seem to) include it, but fedora currently purposely omits it. (not sure why exactly) Sep 25 18:44:18 Kevin_Kofler Best ask the maintainers... Sep 25 18:44:35 rdieter ok, so maybe remove it altogether from kde livecd for now? Sep 25 18:44:50 rdieter it = compiz, beryl, compiz-fusion, whatever it's called. Sep 25 18:45:12 rdieter without an easy way to enable/use it, it's of not much use. Sep 25 18:45:13 svahl mhh. not sure. beryl is still working Sep 25 18:45:34 Kevin_Kofler But it's being obsoleted or is already obsoleted at RPM level. Sep 25 18:45:38 svahl (think so, my last test was some weeks ago) Sep 25 18:45:43 svahl mhh. ok Sep 25 18:46:03 rdieter fwiw, compiz-fusion does *not* Obsoletes: beryl (just checked) Sep 25 18:46:23 Kevin_Kofler If you want Beryl on there, you'll have to discuss that with the compiz maintainers, to make sure they aren't obsoleting it. Sep 25 18:46:41 Kevin_Kofler (at least not before the KDE parts are ready) Sep 25 18:47:04 svahl I will test this again tomorrow and then ask the compiz-fusion guys and/or on fedora-desktop-ml Sep 25 18:47:21 rdieter beryl still lives, so stick with that for now mabye Sep 25 18:47:23 rdieter maybe too Sep 25 18:47:52 rdieter in particular, determine what's blocking the kde support. Sep 25 18:47:55 svahl my opinion atm: If compiz-fusion isn't ready for kde don't include it. Leave beryl (if it is working and not obsoleted by compiz-fusion) Sep 25 18:48:01 rdieter svahl: +1 Sep 25 18:48:06 rdieter moving on... ? Sep 25 18:48:11 svahl yes Sep 25 18:48:23 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting -- KDM Theme for Infinity Sep 25 18:48:30 rdieter http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F8Themes/Infinity/Round3Final Sep 25 18:48:40 rdieter gdm mockup: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/art/infinity/FedoraInfinityGDM.2.tar.gz Sep 25 18:48:46 svahl infinity for gdm is now in fedora-logos Sep 25 18:49:05 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: didn't you say you were going to look at this? :) Sep 25 18:49:22 rdieter (or am I remembering wrong, being hopeful) Sep 25 18:49:55 rdieter else, simply ping fedora-artwork to see if they have anyone to work on it? Sep 25 18:49:57 Kevin_Kofler I haven't had any time for that unfortunately. Sep 25 18:50:20 rdieter Kevin_Kofler: tis ok. Sep 25 18:50:33 Kevin_Kofler Do we ask the artwork folks? Or should I try to get stuff done this week? Sep 25 18:50:35 rdieter ping fedora-artwork then? who wants that job? (I can if no else does) Sep 25 18:50:46 svahl ping the artists. today is freeze Sep 25 18:50:59 rdieter I'd say give artwork first shot, then take it up ourselves. Sep 25 18:51:07 rdieter This is a legit bug, ok to fix post-freeze. Sep 25 18:51:12 Kevin_Kofler svahl: I think we won't make test3. :-( Sep 25 18:51:20 Kevin_Kofler No matter who does it. Sep 25 18:51:30 Kevin_Kofler But yes, that should be fixable post-freeze. Sep 25 18:51:47 Kevin_Kofler I'd suggest asking the artwork folks first. Sep 25 18:51:51 rdieter OK, I'll do the asking... moing on... Sep 25 18:52:04 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting - kdepim-enterprise-branch Sep 25 18:52:22 rdieter I think we're in agreement here (was hoping to hear than's opinion tho) Sep 25 18:52:28 rdieter http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=46F91DB5.60102%40math.unl.edu Sep 25 18:52:48 Kevin_Kofler Push to Rawhide and updates-testing, see if people complain, if not push to F7 stable too. Sep 25 18:53:05 svahl +1 Sep 25 18:53:08 Kevin_Kofler If they complain, revert Rawhide (the versioning is such that we'd only have to bump Release anyway). Sep 25 18:53:26 Kevin_Kofler But I think it should fix more than it breaks seeing how messed up at least KMail is in 3.5.7. Sep 25 18:53:42 Kevin_Kofler Well, POP works fine (I'm using it), but IMAP is in a really sad state. Sep 25 18:54:25 svahl right. (I was still using kdepim-3.5.6 because of that). with the enterprise branch this one seems to be fixed: #244930 Sep 25 18:56:02 rdieter ok, I'll push to rawhide, and we'll see if anyone notices/yells. Sep 25 18:56:04 rdieter :) Sep 25 18:56:16 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG (http://fedoraproct.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE) Meeting - open discussion Sep 25 18:56:27 rdieter anything else to discuss today (almost out of time) Sep 25 18:56:29 rdieter ? Sep 25 18:56:56 svahl #244611: /etc/xdg/autostart: than has closed this bug today. Has anyone tested this yet? Sep 25 18:57:09 svahl #243611 Sep 25 18:57:21 Kevin_Kofler I've looked at it and it seems OK, I haven't actually tested it though. Sep 25 18:57:45 rdieter should be pushed upstream too... I'll ping than about that... Sep 25 18:58:05 svahl ok Sep 25 18:58:24 svahl and two small points: it is worth to produce a kde 4 "sdk" live spin? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/KDE4SDK Sep 25 18:58:40 Kevin_Kofler Probably not. Sep 25 18:58:53 Kevin_Kofler If we had actual KDE 4 Desktop packages, maybe. Sep 25 18:59:05 svahl and for developers? Sep 25 18:59:21 rdieter I think we could do that, but maybe post f8 release, as an unofficial spin. Sep 25 18:59:22 Kevin_Kofler I sure hope they know how to use yum. ;-) Sep 25 18:59:27 svahl (I'm not one, I've tried to compile amarok2 but was missing workspace.h) Sep 25 18:59:54 Kevin_Kofler Amarok2 requiring kdebase-workspace is strange. What do they do on the non-X11 targets where workspace isn't built at all? Sep 25 19:00:13 svahl not sure. that was just the error in cmake Sep 25 19:00:20 rdieter ok, time's up for today. thanks all Sep 25 19:00:34 svahl and FYI: a f7-kde base livecd: http://vixta.org/ Sep 25 19:00:44 svahl s/base/based Sep 25 19:01:06 rdieter the FEL spin was using kde live as a base too, no? Sep 25 19:01:13 svahl yes Sep 25 19:01:32 jeremy well, it's using kde Sep 25 19:01:34 rdieter vixta, cute. Sep 25 19:01:41 jeremy but it's not including the kde live config Sep 25 19:01:53 * rdieter hat das Thema geändert zu: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Sep 25 19:01:54 jeremy (the FEL spin)