From Fedora Project Wiki

2008 July 24 IRC Support Meeting

Members Present

Kevin Fenzi nirik
Jason Farrel zcat
Ben Williams Southern_Gentlem
Scott Glaser Sonar_Guy
Steve Barber roguedaemon
Paul W. Frields stickster
BobJensen Robert Jensen
Rex Dieter rdieter
Scott Williams vwbusguy


Problem Scope

IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Action Items

  1. Add More OPs at the next meeting.


  • The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 2008-July-31.
  • Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas

  • A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems.

(This could be shared with other support types).

  • Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
  • A channel bot for various needs.


Jul 24 11:30:21 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Init Process
Jul 24 11:30:28 <nirik>	who all is here for the IRC support meeting?
Jul 24 11:30:32 *	Sonar_Guy is here
Jul 24 11:31:57 *	zcat  
Jul 24 11:32:21 *	Southern_Gentlem here (in and out)
Jul 24 11:33:37 *	nirik waits a few more minutes for more folks. 
Jul 24 11:34:29 <rdieter>	here
Jul 24 11:34:29 <Sonar_Guy>	Notes from the last meeting are here 
Jul 24 11:34:36 *	BobJensen sits up
Jul 24 11:34:42 *	roguedaemon wakes up
Jul 24 11:34:43 ---	thomasj_ is now known as thomasj
Jul 24 11:35:11 *	thomasj here
Jul 24 11:35:13 <nirik>	ok, lets start in...
Jul 24 11:35:27 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Code of Conduct drafting
Jul 24 11:35:40 <nirik>	has anyone had a chance to poke at the code of conduct(s) on the wiki?
Jul 24 11:35:56 <nirik>	I think the ops one would be the more important one to get done first.
Jul 24 11:36:04 <nirik>
Jul 24 11:36:35 <nirik>	additional items to add? is warning once too little? is 24 hour bans too much?
Jul 24 11:36:41 *	Khaytsus flies up to the corner and lands
Jul 24 11:37:22 <vwbusguy->	hello
Jul 24 11:37:37 <nirik>	welcome vwbusguy- and mock and Khaytsus
Jul 24 11:37:43 <mock>	hello
Jul 24 11:37:52 <zcat>	nirik, everything looks good to me except #1
Jul 24 11:38:14 <nirik>	yeah, thats a bit harsh (as are many of them). What would you suggest?
Jul 24 11:38:20 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: Southern_Gentlem and I have been using an un-official standard. 
                                       warn, 15m ban, 1h ban, then 24h ban.
Jul 24 11:38:43 *	nirik notes we are talking about the very early draft of ops code of conduct 
Jul 24 11:38:44 <rdieter>	nirik: looks good to me (folks keep in mind too that these are just 
                                        guidelines, operators should be free to adjust according to situation)
Jul 24 11:39:09 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i think it sort of depends on the situation, we've been doing ok 
                                        discussing and monitoring bans in #fedora-ops
Jul 24 11:39:15 <BobJensen>	I have a question about #3
Jul 24 11:39:23 <vwbusguy->	should it be ops discretion as to the length of the ban
Jul 24 11:39:38 <BobJensen>	or a statement I guess
Jul 24 11:39:40 <nirik>	BobJensen: go ahead...
Jul 24 11:40:13 <BobJensen>	If a user can not handle other conversations happening while they are getting 
                                help they should fine another medium to get help
Jul 24 11:40:20 <BobJensen>	that is just my opinion
Jul 24 11:40:51 <nirik>	BobJensen: sure, and we should point them at those when need be.
Jul 24 11:41:05 <BobJensen>	how is it any different than 10 people being helped at a time?
Jul 24 11:41:29 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  the problem is that we are getting alot of off topic 
                                        conversations that are taking over the channel and the new people 
                                        are scared to jump in
Jul 24 11:41:45 <Sonar_Guy>	BobJensen: a perfect example of the disruption is look at what baron1984 does.
Jul 24 11:41:45 <roguedaemon>	i think some off topic discussion is natural and almost necessary, but we all 
                                (not just ops) should stop when there is a question on the floor, and try to 
                                get other people in the habit of doing so
Jul 24 11:41:48 <nirik>	well, it's not the volume of lines I don't think... more the folks who join and wonder 
                        if they are in the wrong place.
Jul 24 11:41:53 <vwbusguy->	well, it's a problem when people are flooding off topic.
Jul 24 11:42:08 <BobJensen>	the pointing people who are catching up or chatting waiting for some one to 
                                help to #fedora-Social is silly IMO
Jul 24 11:42:29 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, +1
Jul 24 11:42:40 <BobJensen>	roguedaemon: most of us that have been doing this for a while do that anyhow
Jul 24 11:42:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  i agree, but the ones usually chatting dont help
Jul 24 11:43:04 <nirik>	yeah, roguedaemon +1...
Jul 24 11:43:16 <Sonar_Guy>	and the problem becomes where do you draw the line?
Jul 24 11:43:31 <BobJensen>	A lot of us are friends or damn close, we are going to chat
Jul 24 11:43:51 <zcat>	so update item #3 to say "Users who are consistently off topic AND NOT HELPING..."
Jul 24 11:44:00 <BobJensen>	zcat: I can agree with that
Jul 24 11:44:02 <vwbusguy->	I think if they are distracting you should point them to Fedora-social.  If 
                                they persist, warm them and then ban them.
Jul 24 11:44:10 <roguedaemon>	BobJensen:  and that imho is what makes a good irc channel
Jul 24 11:44:20 <nirik>	zcat: agreed.
Jul 24 11:44:28 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 zcat
Jul 24 11:44:35 *	Sonar_Guy is updating the page
Jul 24 11:44:48 *	nirik stops trying to update it, since Sonar_Guy is. ;) 
Jul 24 11:44:53 <BobJensen>	#4
Jul 24 11:45:15 <nirik>	BobJensen: that may need to be modified if we aren't doing anything like shifts.
Jul 24 11:45:21 <vwbusguy->	does #4 include nick changes - flooding
Jul 24 11:45:22 <BobJensen>	when a user is having network issues, once it is cleared up I think they should 
                                be able to ask to get back in
Jul 24 11:45:34 <vwbusguy->	it's happened a couple of times
Jul 24 11:45:34 <nirik>	vwbusguy-: yes
Jul 24 11:45:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, if they they will be
Jul 24 11:45:53 <roguedaemon>	yeah, we should have a nick changing rule
Jul 24 11:45:55 <nirik>	BobJensen: seems quite reasonable to me...
Jul 24 11:46:01 <roguedaemon>	i really hate that
Jul 24 11:46:03 <BobJensen>	I( know I have had network problems in the past, I think all of us have
Jul 24 11:46:17 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: I guess also remove the mail about bans and replace with note in ops channel?
Jul 24 11:46:24 *	BobJensen points at Sonar_Gal 
Jul 24 11:46:38 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  +1 i was just thinking that
Jul 24 11:46:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  and how many times have you banned people for the samething
Jul 24 11:46:45 <vwbusguy->	that's the reason I have multiple nicks.
Jul 24 11:47:07 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: I have never had ops in #fedora
Jul 24 11:47:27 <nirik>	I think we should also add something about ads... ie, pasting ads to a website/whatever. 
                        Most of those people just drop right back off tho.
Jul 24 11:47:37 <Southern_Gentlem>	vwbusguy-,  changeing a nick and leaving it changed is different than 
                                        changeing to 15different nicks and spamming the channel
Jul 24 11:47:45 <BobJensen>	well once I think, but I deoped as I do/did not want them
Jul 24 11:48:09 <roguedaemon>	Southern_Gentlem:  yeah thats what i meant, people who constantly change so you 
                                                   cant tell who they are, but its really impossible to regulate
Jul 24 11:48:10 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  but you have other less busy channels
Jul 24 11:48:29 *	Sonar_Guy ask if anyone has issues to that change for #4
Jul 24 11:48:31 *	nirik is also fine with a '15min, 1hr, 24hr...' progression, just as a general guideline.
Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* EPONYME is now known as eponyme
Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* eponyme is now known as EPONYME
Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* EPONYME is now known as eponyme
Jul 24 11:48:53 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: not sure how that is on topic here?
Jul 24 11:48:54 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: what do you have right now for it?
Jul 24 11:49:09 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who are dropping on or off and flooding the channel with many 
                                leave/join messages may be removed from the channel until they contact 
                                and Operator in #fedora-ops. 
Jul 24 11:49:30 <nirik>	s/and Operator/an Operator/
Jul 24 11:49:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	an not and
Jul 24 11:49:43 <Sonar_Guy>	done
Jul 24 11:50:00 <BobJensen>	adding nick changes to that?
Jul 24 11:50:32 <vwbusguy->	well, nick change flooding
Jul 24 11:51:12 <nirik>	sure, I would be ok with that... we could leave what 'flooding' in that case is 
                        up to the ops?
Jul 24 11:51:22 <roguedaemon>	how about some statement like pick a nick and stick to it
Jul 24 11:51:36 <vwbusguy->	hmmm
Jul 24 11:51:45 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who are dropping on or off and flooding the channel with many 
                                leave/join messages and/or nick change flooding the channel may be removed 
                                from the channel until they contact an Operator in #fedora-ops.
Jul 24 11:51:52 <nirik>	roguedaemon: we could put that under the Particpants code. ;)
Jul 24 11:51:54 <vwbusguy->	avoid changing nicks often
Jul 24 11:51:55 <roguedaemon>	thats actually a classic irc gripe
Jul 24 11:52:19 <Southern_Gentlem>	need to add that to the users howto as well
Jul 24 11:52:31 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1
Jul 24 11:52:33 *	nirik doesn't care if people change nics a few times a day or whatever, it's when 
                       they do about 10 changes a minute that it's anoying. 
Jul 24 11:52:41 <roguedaemon>	some people get aggravated and see it as some sort of deception
Jul 24 11:52:44 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1
Jul 24 11:52:44 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: +1 from me on that one.
Jul 24 11:52:57 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1
Jul 24 11:53:12 <Sonar_Guy>	anybody else want to weigh in?  or does that satisfy everybody?
Jul 24 11:53:13 <vwbusguy->	it's annoying when your helping too, a minor annoyance, but still
Jul 24 11:53:21 <roguedaemon>	i'm ok with that
Jul 24 11:53:36 <nirik>	ok, should we change all instances of 24h there to '15min, 1hr, 24hr as a 
                        general guideline'
Jul 24 11:53:38 <zcat>	on #1 - warning&banning harmless foulmouths shouldn't be a requirement. it's 
                        more about an abusive context than just the words
Jul 24 11:53:49 <zcat>	not everybody's thinskinned
Jul 24 11:53:57 <nirik>	vwbusguy-: agreed...
Jul 24 11:54:06 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  arent we sort of skipping the kick phase? :)
Jul 24 11:54:23 <roguedaemon>	ive always looked at it like warning, kick, ban
Jul 24 11:54:23 <vwbusguy->	nirik, I think as a guideline, but it should still be up to the ops
Jul 24 11:54:29 <BobJensen>	zcat: and we need a list of what words are on the list, I am sick of 
                                seeing people warned for things like "damn"
Jul 24 11:54:37 <nirik>	zcat: true, but the thin skinned ones will get mad pretty quick. We want a 
                        nice env for everyone to ask questions.
Jul 24 11:54:43 *	zcat looks at Southern_Gentlem :)
Jul 24 11:54:58 <nirik>	roguedaemon: I would be ok adding that too...
Jul 24 11:55:10 *	nirik doesn't care, but it would be nice for it to be consistent. 
Jul 24 11:55:16 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  most people that get kicked first come right back and apologize
Jul 24 11:55:23 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, well, then there are those that change one letter.. "fuk"
Jul 24 11:55:51 *	Sonar_Guy was looking at just adding a blanket statement to each item similar 
                        to "per standard op guidlines."
Jul 24 11:55:54 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: it is what is is, trying to avoid a kick by being creative
Jul 24 11:56:02 <Sonar_Guy>	then defining the guidelines below
Jul 24 11:56:23 <nirik>	we could limit the things we care about to the 7 words? :) (rip george carlin)
Jul 24 11:56:26 <roguedaemon>	can spoleeba still say frell? heheh
Jul 24 11:56:26 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: sounds very good to me.
Jul 24 11:56:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	hey i use the warning because of in the past if i didnt then it 
                                        wasnt long untill the fu*k and stuff starts flying
Jul 24 11:56:27 <vwbusguy->	well, just saying, the list should not be exhaustive, and still up to 
                                the ops discretion to enforce
Jul 24 11:56:39 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: there should be a certain amount of credit for style points...
Jul 24 11:56:51 *	roguedaemon prefers fut
Jul 24 11:56:56 <vwbusguy->	fsck
Jul 24 11:56:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	fsck
Jul 24 11:56:59 <vwbusguy->	haha
Jul 24 11:57:04 <vwbusguy->	you owe me a coke
Jul 24 11:57:16 <zcat>	Southern_Gentlem, if someone's going to curse they'll usually skip damn and hell :)
Jul 24 11:57:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat i will back off and we will see
Jul 24 11:57:39 *	zcat prefers fvck
Jul 24 11:58:13 *	nirik thinks we should not try and come up with anything specific here. It should
                        be up to the pool of ops... things that disrupt the channel or cause those of a
                        puritan background to find the channel a bad place should be stopped. 
Jul 24 11:58:14 <BobJensen>	oh hell when was hell a swear word other than when Southern_Gentlem is on duty?
Jul 24 11:58:23 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok for #1 how is this Users who use profanity should be warned about the 
                                use of such language,then it is up to the operators description as to the option 
                                taken from the standard operators guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 11:58:35 *	BobJensen smiles
Jul 24 11:58:43 <nirik>	BobJensen: h e double toothpicks? :)
Jul 24 11:58:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	most of the time i dont tag people hell but combo
Jul 24 11:59:07 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: s/description/descretion/ ?
Jul 24 11:59:17 *	nirik fails at tab
Jul 24 11:59:24 <vwbusguy->	well, if it's offensive and distracting, then it needs to be addressed
Jul 24 11:59:29 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: I just have to give you Sh*t
Jul 24 11:59:38 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: yes
Jul 24 12:00:02 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: that looks good to me +1
Jul 24 12:00:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  thats why we are doing this so anvil and I arent 
                                        on duty all the fscking time
Jul 24 12:00:20 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who use offensive and distracting profanity should be warned 
                                about the use of such language, then it is up to the operators descretion 
                                as to the option taken from the standard operators guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 12:00:22 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1
Jul 24 12:00:31 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1
Jul 24 12:00:40 <zcat>	Sonar_Guy, +1
Jul 24 12:00:46 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy: +1
Jul 24 12:01:01 ---	dwmw2_gone is now known as dwmw2_YOW
Jul 24 12:01:52 <nirik>	ok, other things to add?
Jul 24 12:02:15 <roguedaemon>	is there enough ops in the western hemisphere?
Jul 24 12:02:16 <vwbusguy->	Is #6 for users who knowingly do so or unknowingly, or both?
Jul 24 12:02:42 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: both
Jul 24 12:02:42 <roguedaemon>	err eastern i mean
Jul 24 12:02:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	willingly
Jul 24 12:02:43 <nirik>	both I would think.
Jul 24 12:03:01 <vwbusguy->	this is why I brought it up - it needs to be clear
Jul 24 12:03:04 <BobJensen>	"use the repo that should not be mentioned" is an example IMO
Jul 24 12:03:13 <Sonar_Guy>	#2 Users who paste or dump large amounts of text in the channel 
                                (more than 4 lines) should be warned once, this will be enforced 
                                per the standard operators guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 12:03:34 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: sounds fine. I just picked 4 lines there... should it be 2? or 
                        does it matter?
Jul 24 12:03:37 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy: I would think it is OK to kick mid flood
Jul 24 12:03:51 <vwbusguy->	maybe some fool thinks he's helping to tell people to install with 
                                rpm --nodeps --force?
Jul 24 12:03:51 <BobJensen>	nirik: 4 has always been the rule
Jul 24 12:03:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	yeah we need to kick mid flood
Jul 24 12:04:01 <BobJensen>	nirik: and I think it is a fair number
Jul 24 12:04:08 <nirik>	yeah.
Jul 24 12:04:15 *	nirik notes once we have a bot, we could get the bot to do it. 
Jul 24 12:04:19 <vwbusguy->	4 is a good rule
Jul 24 12:04:43 <Sonar_Guy>	yUsers who paste or dump large amounts of text in the channel 
                                (more than 4 lines) will be kicked mid flood and should be warned, if 
                                the action continues this will be enforced per the standard operators 
                                guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 12:04:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	flood is the one place we should be able to kick/warn
Jul 24 12:04:57 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: agreed.
Jul 24 12:05:01 <Sonar_Guy>	ignore the y
Jul 24 12:05:55 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: sounds good. Of course if there isn't a op looking right then, they 
                        might not get kicked in mid flood, but yeah...
Jul 24 12:06:04 <vwbusguy->	yeah
Jul 24 12:06:14 <vwbusguy->	I think users are good about warning in that case
Jul 24 12:06:19 <vwbusguy->	because no one likes it
Jul 24 12:06:30 <Sonar_Guy>	ok changed will to may
Jul 24 12:06:37 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: yeah everyoone has always helped out
Jul 24 12:07:09 <Southern_Gentlem>	from will to may be
Jul 24 12:07:31 <Sonar_Guy>	#4 Users who are consistently off topic AND NOT HELPING when others are 
                                trying to get help should be warned once and then will be subject to the 
                                standard operators guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 12:07:50 <nirik>	BobJensen: everyone? I don't remember that nick... who are they? :)
Jul 24 12:08:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	baron1984
Jul 24 12:08:06 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: looks good.
Jul 24 12:08:07 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1
Jul 24 12:08:11 <BobJensen>	nirik: yeah him and anyone should really come around more
Jul 24 12:08:38 <Sonar_Guy>	actuall that is #3 but we did #4 already
Jul 24 12:08:42 <BobJensen>	if I could get the anyone nick I would jump on it in a heartbeat
Jul 24 12:08:45 <zcat>	#7: CrocoJet, NeilTheReilDeal ...
Jul 24 12:09:36 <Sonar_Guy>	#5 Long term or repeat offenders may be removed for longer time periods 
                                at the discretion of the entire pool of Operators.
Jul 24 12:09:48 <Southern_Gentlem>	dont say that nick it hasnt been around for awhile
Jul 24 12:09:55 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: LOL
Jul 24 12:10:14 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: added that in for the longer term bans... there will be some people that 
                        just never learn.
Jul 24 12:10:36 <Sonar_Guy>	Yup
Jul 24 12:10:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	entire discretion of the operators
Jul 24 12:10:54 <Sonar_Guy>	any changes to #5?
Jul 24 12:11:33 *	roguedaemon notices its getting dark at noon
Jul 24 12:11:56 <roguedaemon>	btw, do we have a standard ban syntax?
Jul 24 12:12:08 <Sonar_Guy>	going once, going twice. . . 
Jul 24 12:12:24 <Sonar_Guy>	#6 Users who consistently provide incorrect or dangerous help (telling users 
                                to 'rm -rf /' or the like) will be warned and then will be subject to the standard 
                                operators guidelines listed below.
Jul 24 12:12:27 <roguedaemon>	ive been using kickban *!*@domain
Jul 24 12:12:40 <vwbusguy->	roguedaemon, good, because it catches alt nicks
Jul 24 12:12:51 <roguedaemon>	vwbusguy-:  but you have to remember who it was...
Jul 24 12:12:58 <Sonar_Guy>	and I would like to add #7 about advertising/ad bots
Jul 24 12:13:00 <roguedaemon>	#fedora-ops logs covers that
Jul 24 12:13:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	but the problem is that is a domain ban
Jul 24 12:13:10 <roguedaemon>	Southern_Gentlem:  actual hostname
Jul 24 12:13:14 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, permanent bans
Jul 24 12:13:16 <nirik>	hostname? or ip?
Jul 24 12:13:29 <vwbusguy->	I saw no tolerance on spam bots
Jul 24 12:13:32 <Southern_Gentlem>	Sonar_Guy, +1 adbot ban of 24hours
Jul 24 12:13:33 <BobJensen>	if we required registered nicks it would help
Jul 24 12:13:36 <roguedaemon>	ie *!*
Jul 24 12:14:00 <roguedaemon>	host would be *!*@*
Jul 24 12:14:03 <roguedaemon>	thats what we dont want
Jul 24 12:14:10 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen,  but the board has asked us to open to 
                                        channel for no reg nicks
Jul 24 12:14:12 <Khaytsus>	*!*@*.br
Jul 24 12:14:12 *	nirik should look up how to do bans sometime... ;) Not something I have done much of. 
Jul 24 12:14:35 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik /ban user
Jul 24 12:14:36 <nirik>	roguedaemon: unless it's a shared system, but then you are kinda limited in options anyhow.
Jul 24 12:15:23 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: IMO I still believe if they want that then they better be the 
                                first ones to sign up to work shifts
Jul 24 12:15:30 <roguedaemon>	kickban *!*@domain is any nick at that specific hostname, seems like the best approach
Jul 24 12:15:40 <Sonar_Guy>	#7 Advertising or ad spamming the #fedora channel with advertisements either by user 
                                or adbots will not be tolerated, violators will be subject to an automatic 24 hour ban 
                                and repeat offenders may be banned for longer durations of time.
Jul 24 12:15:56 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: sounds good.
Jul 24 12:16:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	so i can advertise the re-spin any longer
Jul 24 12:16:17 <roguedaemon>	heheh
Jul 24 12:16:22 <Southern_Gentlem>	cant
Jul 24 12:16:24 <vwbusguy->	Southern_Gentlem, well, it's Fedora related
Jul 24 12:16:32 <vwbusguy->	diet pills or pyramid schemes however
Jul 24 12:16:40 <Southern_Gentlem>	other channels
Jul 24 12:16:55 <Southern_Gentlem>	which is a freenode rule
Jul 24 12:17:04 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: anyone can make stupid requirements when it does not effect them
Jul 24 12:17:56 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i want to see something about putdowns and personal attacks on the rule sheet
Jul 24 12:17:58 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: we could add 'advertisements/advertiesments unrelated to Fedora topics'
Jul 24 12:17:59 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: but as always that is just my opinion
Jul 24 12:18:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik yes i go fro that
Jul 24 12:18:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	for
Jul 24 12:18:43 <Khaytsus>	Any personal blog spam = 7 day ban
Jul 24 12:18:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	lol
Jul 24 12:19:00 <roguedaemon>	heh
Jul 24 12:19:01 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1
Jul 24 12:19:26 <roguedaemon>	Khaytsus:  no one cares what you had for breakfast
Jul 24 12:20:16 <nirik>	roguedaemon: as enforced by ops? what rule would you like to see?
Jul 24 12:20:48 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  just stated on the code of conduct, no putdowns or personal attacks
Jul 24 12:21:08 <zcat>	roguedaemon, should be rolled into #1
Jul 24 12:21:33 <nirik>	roguedaemon: as something ops should never do? or something they should enforce in the channel?
Jul 24 12:21:48 <roguedaemon>	something we dont want anyone to do
Jul 24 12:22:23 <roguedaemon>	i dont think we have to tell ops not to do that...
Jul 24 12:22:25 <BobJensen>	roguedaemon: eliminate the stupid users and we can eliminate all sarcasm and humor from 
                                the channel
Jul 24 12:22:34 <nirik>	if the first, I would be happy with something about 'Ops should never stoop to personal 
                        attacks or putdowns, and should stive to make the channel a good place for users to be helped' 
                        or something.
Jul 24 12:22:40 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok
Jul 24 12:23:13 <roguedaemon>	sorry, i guess that one was for the participants code of conduct
Jul 24 12:23:16 <nirik>	roguedaemon: we were planning on having 2 more codes... one for 'helpers' and one for end users... 
                        it should surely go there too.
Jul 24 12:23:22 *	jds2001 steps in for a few minutes
Jul 24 12:23:26 <Sonar_Guy>
Jul 24 12:23:56 <nirik>	looks ok to me...
Jul 24 12:24:05 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i guess i'm wondering how we handle that, maybe it needs its own number
Jul 24 12:24:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	7 add fedora related
Jul 24 12:24:24 <nirik>	roguedaemon: well, we could add it as something to enforce...
Jul 24 12:24:43 <roguedaemon>	like #  Users who are consistently insulting or attacking other users should be 
                                warned once and then removed from the channel for 24 hours.
Jul 24 12:24:54 *	nirik thinks that many of these rules could be boiled down to 'don't be a jerk or let others
                        be jerks' but thats pretty vuage. 
Jul 24 12:25:22 <Southern_Gentlem>	if you act like a 2 year old, you will be treated as such
Jul 24 12:25:23 <Sonar_Guy>	Southern_Gentlem: you mean non-fedora related
Jul 24 12:25:30 <BobJensen>	insulting just as profane is subjective
Jul 24 12:25:32 <roguedaemon>	because its just not productive, no matter how stupid the attackee is
Jul 24 12:25:33 <nirik>	or to quote Bill and Ted "Be Excellent to each other"
Jul 24 12:25:50 <jds2001>	roguedaemon: i think that 15 minutes would suffice there
Jul 24 12:25:54 <GruSum>	Why not post the 6 most egregious violations in Channel Topics and then let 
                                the Ops handle other violations using their best judgment - would make ur 
                                life MUCH easier ?
Jul 24 12:26:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	Sonar_Guy,  yep non fedora related
Jul 24 12:26:21 <roguedaemon>	as long as the big ones are clearly stated somewhere
Jul 24 12:26:25 <jds2001>	roguedaemon: just a little cooling off period.  More for repeat offenders obviously
Jul 24 12:26:52 <Southern_Gentlem>	GruSum,  topic isnt that large and needs to be used for other things
Jul 24 12:27:11 <GruSum>	OIC
Jul 24 12:27:55 <nirik>	so, shall we add a rule for that? thoughts?
Jul 24 12:28:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	why not
Jul 24 12:28:07 <BobJensen>	nirik: it is too subjective IMO
Jul 24 12:28:10 *	nirik realizes it would be subjective, just like the profanity one
Jul 24 12:28:26 <roguedaemon>	i think its one of the biggest remaining issues
Jul 24 12:28:29 <nirik>	yeah, in some ways it would be more subjective...
Jul 24 12:28:49 <BobJensen>	some have no sense of humor
Jul 24 12:28:52 <jds2001>	not everything must be objective and scientific :)
Jul 24 12:29:17 <BobJensen>	and there are a lot of times using a little humor gets a user on track
Jul 24 12:29:18 ---	stickster is now known as stickster_food
Jul 24 12:29:29 <Southern_Gentlem>	roguedaemon,  example of an attack you are talking aobut please
Jul 24 12:29:30 <nirik>	jds2001: sure, but then we could just have a thing that said "whatever the ops want 
                        to do", which doesn't help things being consistent over a large pool of ops
Jul 24 12:29:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	i know what i want to say but cannot put it in to works
Jul 24 12:29:52 <roguedaemon>	ugh
Jul 24 12:30:08 <vwbusguy->	roguedaemon, I agree with you that this is still an issue
Jul 24 12:30:20 <vwbusguy->	sometimes people are too hard on n00bs
Jul 24 12:30:23 <jds2001>	nirik: right, but some latitude is necessary
Jul 24 12:30:26 <BobJensen>	like the last one I used the "Are your parents related?" on, he came back and 
                                thanked me for waking him up.
Jul 24 12:30:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	someone comes into the channel and start cursing out one person for 
                                        no reason (thats an attack)
Jul 24 12:31:07 <nirik>	BobJensen: yeah, it's hard to say in advance tho if someone will take that the right 
                        way, or get all offended.
Jul 24 12:31:24 *	Southern_Gentlem slaps roguedaemon with the 60# unix manual
Jul 24 12:31:33 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy should remember that one, he flipped on me then, later slowed 
                                down and got the help he needed
Jul 24 12:31:45 <Sonar_Guy>	yup
Jul 24 12:31:50 <Southern_Gentlem>	that is highly subjectibe
Jul 24 12:31:54 <Sonar_Guy>	after a 15 minute time out.
Jul 24 12:32:01 <jds2001>	Southern_Gentlem: but an attack could be construed as calling someone 
                                stupid, etc
Jul 24 12:32:15 *	nirik is reminded of the guy who came in accusing vilegent of killing JFK or 
                        something... he was quite the loon. 
Jul 24 12:32:22 <BobJensen>	jds2001: but that is 75% of the channel at anytime
Jul 24 12:32:35 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik said i was the mastermind of the VT shootings
Jul 24 12:32:53 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: oh yeah, that was it. Was quite a funny trainwreck.
Jul 24 12:32:56 <roguedaemon>	and a racist
Jul 24 12:33:03 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, and part of the problem
Jul 24 12:33:31 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: I again raise the registered nick point
Jul 24 12:33:33 <nirik>	anyhow, what can we do to make the channel more positive ? I don't think kicking 
                        out anyone who 'attacks' is gonna be too productive, as it's so subjective.
Jul 24 12:33:56 <roguedaemon>	jabbing at helpless people is just wrong imho
Jul 24 12:34:03 <nirik>	roguedaemon: agreed.
Jul 24 12:34:05 <Sonar_Guy>	+1
Jul 24 12:34:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	agreed
Jul 24 12:34:28 <vwbusguy->	+1
Jul 24 12:34:33 *	nirik notes that the channel goes to FESCo in about 25min.
Jul 24 12:34:37 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: I again state that the board enforcing stupid on those of 
                                us in the channel day in and day out is not fair unless they are going 
                                to pull daily shifts
Jul 24 12:34:41 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, I still don't really like that
Jul 24 12:35:04 <roguedaemon>	there is always grey area, like a certain 3 char nick lately, just 
                                constantly asking to get jabbed
Jul 24 12:35:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	this is really a user of the channel area the ops thingy
Jul 24 12:35:36 <BobJensen>	bounce the non registered in to #Fedora-Social where they will get help 
                                registering and some basic help at times
Jul 24 12:35:58 <nirik>	how about we add a ops code line like: "Ops should try and discourage personal 
                        attacks or insults of users in the channel"
Jul 24 12:35:59 <vwbusguy->	are we done with te Code of Conduct document then?
Jul 24 12:36:16 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1
Jul 24 12:36:23 <BobJensen>	the old policy of bouncing them in to the muted #fedora-join-instructiuons 
                                was stupid from the get go IMO
Jul 24 12:36:26 <Southern_Gentlem>	for ops anyways
Jul 24 12:36:30 <vwbusguy->	"try to" instead of "try and"
Jul 24 12:36:30 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  fair enough
Jul 24 12:36:31 *	Sonar_Guy shows all the link
Jul 24 12:36:34 <vwbusguy->	nirik, you hick
Jul 24 12:36:42 <rdieter>	BobJensen: (and others): is there a general feeling here (consensus)
                                that the board was wrong?  If so, tell them so.
Jul 24 12:36:44 *	nirik bows
Jul 24 12:36:47 <roguedaemon>	vwbusguy-:  heh
Jul 24 12:37:10 <vwbusguy->	(says the guy from indiana)
Jul 24 12:37:14 <nirik>	BobJensen: can you point to unregistered people as being the disruptive ones? 
                        I haven't noticed that.
Jul 24 12:37:32 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i just wanted to see it mentioned somewhere so people will be mindful
Jul 24 12:37:59 <vwbusguy->	As of now, I don't see any merit to registered nicks only
Jul 24 12:38:13 <vwbusguy->	like locks only keep honest people out
Jul 24 12:38:17 <Southern_Gentlem>	rdieter,  we feel that it is easy to make rules, when you are not 
                                        the one on the front line day in and day out
Jul 24 12:38:20 <BobJensen>	rdieter: nearly anyone that spends a fair amount of time in the channel has 
                                seen a decrease in the users skill, it could be part of the ubuntu exodus also
Jul 24 12:38:31 <roguedaemon>	BobJensen:  i think so
Jul 24 12:38:33 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok added Ops should try to discourage personal attacks or insults of users 
                                in the channel.
Jul 24 12:39:06 <thomasj>	Southern_Gentlem, +1
Jul 24 12:39:10 <BobJensen>	rdieter: it just makes the giving help a lot harder, having a level 1 entry point
                                would help a lot
Jul 24 12:39:11 <rdieter>	BobJensen: hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, but it sounds like you (and possibly 
                                others) are unhappy with that decision.  If that is the case, just saying so here 
                                isn't going to affect any change.
Jul 24 12:39:34 <BobJensen>	rdieter: I do understand where you are coming from
Jul 24 12:40:14 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: ok, with that I am happy with it (at least as far as I can think of now)... 
                        should we get all current ops to look it over and then see about accepting it next week?
                        or post to mailing list(s) about it? thoughts?
Jul 24 12:40:20 <rdieter>	curious, what did the board say exactly:  edict: thou shalt not require registration,
                                or please try unregisterred and see how it goes?
Jul 24 12:40:37 <BobJensen>	rdieter: I am not sure if there is a consensus, that is why I think it at least 
                                needs to be discussed before going to the board
Jul 24 12:40:52 <nirik>	rdieter: it was just something in the minutes. I never heard what prompted it.
Jul 24 12:41:04 *	Sonar_Guy reminds all to review 
                        and bring up any other changes at the next meeting.
Jul 24 12:41:11 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik lowering the entry point stuff
Jul 24 12:41:28 <nirik>	to quote the minutes: "    *  The Board voted to open #fedora channel on IRC to no longer
                        require registration of nicks. This is seen as a major hurdle for new people who don't 
                        know anything about IRC. ACTION ITEM: Dennis Gilmore to survey needs on IRC in terms of 
                        fostering better care for new users (i.e. social needs) and assessing technical needs.
Jul 24 12:41:28 <nirik>	"
Jul 24 12:41:41 <nirik>	so, we could bug dgilmore about it. ;)
Jul 24 12:41:41 <ke4qqq>	 /quit
Jul 24 12:41:44 <BobJensen>	rdieter: the old policy was to harsh, users were bounced in to a channel where 
                                they could not even ask how to get help registering their nicks.
Jul 24 12:41:51 <rdieter>	BobJensen: nod
Jul 24 12:42:41 <roguedaemon>	and the bad seeds still get in anyway
Jul 24 12:42:48 <vwbusguy->	ok, I like how the documents are coming
Jul 24 12:42:53 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Progress report
Jul 24 12:42:55 <BobJensen>	roguedaemon: yeah the bad ones are easy to deal with
Jul 24 12:42:56 <vwbusguy->	Are we done for today?
Jul 24 12:43:13 <nirik>	anyone have thoughts on if things are improving or not? and how can we improve things more?
Jul 24 12:43:15 <jds2001>	if im bound and determined to cause trouble, registering a nick is not a huge hurdke
Jul 24 12:43:44 <vwbusguy->	well, that's my point about registering.  Trolls are not necessarily ignorant.
Jul 24 12:43:46 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: it is getting better day by day
Jul 24 12:43:47 <BobJensen>	I think the "level 1 support" that can happen in an open channel like 
                                #Fedora-Social would help us out a lot
Jul 24 12:43:48 <nirik>	vwbusguy-: yeah, almost. Want to see if there are any progress comments/ideas or any 
                        other topics before we close
Jul 24 12:43:55 <vwbusguy->	registering will just keep newbs out, but not the trolls
Jul 24 12:44:15 <BobJensen>	causing trouble is not the problem
Jul 24 12:44:30 <BobJensen>	it does help slow them down how ever
Jul 24 12:44:38 <zcat>	ok. so when's the opslist getting updated? i nominate daMaestro, Khaytsus, Edgan 
                        (nightowl), and myself
Jul 24 12:44:50 <nirik>	registering keeps the adbots out more I suspect, but otherwise doesn't matter too much.
Jul 24 12:44:53 <vwbusguy->	I don't even think that is a problem right now
Jul 24 12:44:58 <mock>	just a thought: if chatting is moved to -social, would there be delays in level 1 support?
Jul 24 12:45:03 *	Sonar_Guy seconds zcat motion
Jul 24 12:45:28 <BobJensen>	mock: many of us are in -Social also and are willing to help with the basic crud 
                                there I think
Jul 24 12:45:34 <mock>	ok
Jul 24 12:45:41 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i think its been pretty good atmosphere wise, but we need to keep looking 
                                at easier ways of answering the common questions
Jul 24 12:45:41 <zcat>	 /chanserv #fedora access list     shows a few i've never seen.
Jul 24 12:45:43 <nirik>	zcat: fine with me. How about we ping all the ops and update next weeks meeting if there 
                        are no objections?
Jul 24 12:46:06 <roguedaemon>	i would like thomasj added to the nominee list also
Jul 24 12:46:06 <nirik>	roguedaemon: yeah, we could start putting together requirements for a bot perhaps.
Jul 24 12:46:24 <nirik>	roguedaemon: or make a wiki page with the "top 10"
Jul 24 12:46:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat and i would like to add kanarip to that list as well
Jul 24 12:46:35 <jds2001>	+1 to kanarip
Jul 24 12:46:40 <Southern_Gentlem>	and thomasj
Jul 24 12:46:41 <roguedaemon>	+1
Jul 24 12:46:45 <zcat>	aye
Jul 24 12:46:47 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 to all
Jul 24 12:46:54 <vwbusguy->	+1 for kanarip
Jul 24 12:47:06 <BobJensen>	+1 to anyone willing
Jul 24 12:47:10 <roguedaemon>	lol
Jul 24 12:47:13 <jds2001>	and zcat and daMaestro - i dont really know the others :)
Jul 24 12:47:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	kanarip and thomasj are eastern hemisphere
Jul 24 12:47:17 <nirik>	ok, so total list is: daMaestro, kanarip, thomasj, Edgan, zcat ?
Jul 24 12:47:34 <daMaestro>	yeah, i've had only a few occasions where it would have been useful
Jul 24 12:47:42 <Khaytsus>	zcat: You're not already op?
Jul 24 12:47:44 <BobJensen>	kanarip and thomasj are fine individuals
Jul 24 12:47:45 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik:  and Khaytsus,
Jul 24 12:47:50 <vwbusguy->	I don't know Edgan but the others, yes
Jul 24 12:48:02 <zcat>	Khaytsus, nope. i'm cyborg.
Jul 24 12:48:03 <daMaestro>	i can do OP shifts while @ work... so 8-6 MDT/MST
Jul 24 12:48:04 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: oh yeah, sorry I missed. ;(
Jul 24 12:48:06 <daMaestro>	;-)
Jul 24 12:48:11 <daMaestro>	i just need a ping
Jul 24 12:48:11 <Sonar_Guy>	np
Jul 24 12:48:11 <Khaytsus>	zcat: Domo arigato.
Jul 24 12:48:13 <roguedaemon>	heh i thought zcat was for the longest time
Jul 24 12:48:39 <nirik>	since there are some ops not here, how about we ping them in a memo/something and 
                        update list next week if there are no objections?
Jul 24 12:48:57 <BobJensen>	nirik: +1
Jul 24 12:49:03 *	nirik is fine with more folks. Would be nice to have 24x7 coverage
Jul 24 12:49:07 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: +1
Jul 24 12:49:23 ---	stickster_food is now known as stickster
Jul 24 12:49:30 <nirik>	ok, I will memo them and we will update next week.
Jul 24 12:49:33 <nirik>	Any other items?
Jul 24 12:49:44 *	vwbusguy- is a little interested in being an op, but wants to see if he can commit 
                        the time.
Jul 24 12:49:44 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Open Floor
Jul 24 12:49:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik and we need to clean the list of the other people as well
Jul 24 12:50:00 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, I heard back from a few, but lots didn't respond.
Jul 24 12:50:13 <Southern_Gentlem>	no reply they need to be dropped
Jul 24 12:50:39 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: +1
Jul 24 12:50:42 *	nirik wonders if we shouldn't also have more folks as ops in #fedora-social... but
                        I guess there isn't really anything off topic there that would result in a ban. 
Jul 24 12:50:58 <nirik>	ok, thanks everyone for coming. See you next week same time.
Jul 24 12:50:59 <jds2001>	but there is
Jul 24 12:51:05 <BobJensen>	nirik: I think the same as in #fedora would be the right thing to do for now
Jul 24 12:51:08 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  it has potential to turn into a smashfest in there sometimes though
Jul 24 12:51:08 <nirik>	Drop by #fedora-ops for more discussion.
Jul 24 12:51:12 <jds2001>	like outright obscentitym etc
Jul 24 12:51:17 <nirik>	yeah, I suppose so.
Jul 24 12:51:53 <Southern_Gentlem>	there are 4 ops listed in social
Jul 24 12:51:56 <nirik>	yeah.
Jul 24 12:52:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	one quit 2 years ago
Jul 24 12:52:07 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Are the fedora ops op in all Fedora rooms?
Jul 24 12:52:07 <nirik>	cds, ivazquez, spot, kushal
Jul 24 12:52:14 *	vwbusguy- thinks Fedora-social should not be enforced (yet)
Jul 24 12:52:15 <nirik>	Khaytsus: no.
Jul 24 12:52:22 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Too much maintenance?
Jul 24 12:52:27 <nirik>	Khaytsus: they all have different lists.
Jul 24 12:52:28 <roguedaemon>	vwbusguy-:  i swear every other word in real life :)
Jul 24 12:52:43 <nirik>	Khaytsus: someday it would be nice to tie into the fas system.
Jul 24 12:52:56 <vwbusguy->	nirik, I was thinking about that
Jul 24 12:53:08 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Yeah.  I mean, if all were ops in all Fedora rooms, if there were 
                                a problem they could join said room if they don't idle there...
Jul 24 12:53:21 <vwbusguy->	nirik, it would make a LOT of sense to have helpers and ops through FAS
Jul 24 12:53:30 *	nirik nods
Jul 24 12:54:03 <nirik>	Khaytsus: yeah, they are all seperate lists right now tho. Well, I guess spot has
                        superpowers and can be ops on #fedora*, but thats the only exception I know of.
Jul 24 12:54:27 <nirik>	ok folks, lets bring up fedora-social next week?
Jul 24 12:54:28 <roguedaemon>	6 minutes left
Jul 24 12:54:39 *	Southern_Gentlem move to adjoin
Jul 24 12:54:47 <jds2001>	adjourn?
Jul 24 12:54:53 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - END MEETING.