Gimp Tricks (2008-12-07 classroom)

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Fedora Classroom - How to wow your friends with awesome GIMP tricks! - Máirín Duffy - Sunday, December 7, 2008

---nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - How to wow your friends with awesome Gimp tricks! with your teacher Máirín Duffy ( mizmo ) - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom for schedule of classes today. Dec 07 13:45
nirik mizmo: you ready? Dec 07 13:45
mizmo sure Dec 07 13:45
mizmo so who's here for the gimp talk? Dec 07 13:45
dgrift i am Dec 07 13:45
SSlater me Dec 07 13:45
Roobarb-Home *waves* Dec 07 13:45
LukasT_away me too Dec 07 13:46
mizmo cool what versions of gimp do y'all have? Dec 07 13:46
*mj0vy1 started GIMP Dec 07 13:46
mizmo im going to be using 2.6, which is in fedora 10 Dec 07 13:46
mj0vy1 2.4.5 Dec 07 13:46
dgrift 2.6.2 Dec 07 13:46
SSlater 2.4.3 Dec 07 13:47
mizmo Roobarb-Home, LukasT_away? Dec 07 13:47
LukasT_away mizmo: 2.6 Dec 07 13:47
Roobarb-Home 2.6 Dec 07 13:47
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mizmo okay Dec 07 13:47
mizmo so there are some differences in the way the menus are arranged between 2.4 and 2.6 Dec 07 13:47
mizmo so if i say to go somewhere and you can't find it let me know, okay? Dec 07 13:48
mizmo everyone should fire up gimp now :) Dec 07 13:48
*nirik doesn't seem to have it installed on the laptop... installing now. Dec 07 13:49
mizmo okay cool Dec 07 13:49
mizmo we're going to start with a photo that i found on the creative commons search engine Dec 07 13:49
mizmo just a remark upfront, when you're working with photos and other sourced artwork, check the license before you use it Dec 07 13:49
zcat mizmo, have enough bandwidth for a view-only VNC from many? Dec 07 13:49
mizmo it can be pretty heartbreaking to come up with an awesome image and later discover that you used something with a bad license and you have to throw out your awesome image Dec 07 13:50
mizmo zcat, i dont think so, what i'm going to do is try to put stuff up at http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp Dec 07 13:50
mizmo on-the-fly screenshots, etc Dec 07 13:50
zcat ok, that works Dec 07 13:50
mizmo hopefully i dont run out of disk space :) Dec 07 13:50
mizmo so anyhow, i used the cc search engine to find a source image: http://search.creativecommons.org/ Dec 07 13:51
mizmo i checked off search for works i can use for commercial purposes and works i can modify, adapt, or build upon Dec 07 13:51
mizmo so i'd know i was pretty much in the clear on whatever i wanted to do Dec 07 13:51
mizmo here's the image I fonud: Dec 07 13:52
mizmo http://flickr.com/photos/gaetanlee/2482895280/ Dec 07 13:52
mizmo (note the license in the lower right corner of flickr photos, if you hover over the license link it'll give you an idea of what the exact cc license is) Dec 07 13:52
mizmo for the highest quality let's work with the original image size Dec 07 13:53
mizmo so go ahead and download http://flickr.com/photos/gaetanlee/2482895280/sizes/o/ Dec 07 13:53
mizmo and let me know when you're ready to go :) Dec 07 13:53
mizmo (open it up in gimp, too) Dec 07 13:53
mizmo  :) Dec 07 13:53
LukasT File-> Open Location -> paste URL Dec 07 13:53
mizmo i actually like to save to my hard drive first, and i try to put the flickr id in the filename when i save so if i have to look up the artist's name later to give them credit, i can Dec 07 13:54
mizmo but its a personal preference thing Dec 07 13:54
*nirik is getting a 'convert to rgb working space?' dialog Dec 07 13:54
dgrift convert to RGB working space? Dec 07 13:54
mizmo dgrift, it should already be in RGB Dec 07 13:55
mizmo dgrift, if gimp is asking you to convert it to RGB then go ahead Dec 07 13:55
dgrift it is ADOBE RGB (1998) Dec 07 13:55
Roobarb-Home A-RGB vs sRGB I think Dec 07 13:55
mizmo weird, it didn't ask me about that Dec 07 13:55
nirik "The image has an embeded color profile: ADOBE RGB (1998)..." Dec 07 13:55
LukasT me to get question Dec 07 13:55
nirik it does have a 'don't show me this again' checkbox. Dec 07 13:56
mizmo ah could be i have it not bug me about that Dec 07 13:56
LukasT mizmo: can you explain the differencies? Dec 07 13:56
LukasT mizmo: between sRgb and argb? Dec 07 13:56
mizmo LukasT, to be honest i am not much of an expert on color profiles Dec 07 13:56
LukasT mizmo: i see :) Dec 07 13:56
mizmo LukasT, and it's really hard to find information on them Dec 07 13:56
LukasT let's continue Dec 07 13:56
Roobarb-Home one is better for printing, the other for screens Dec 07 13:57
LukasT so I Dec 07 13:57
LukasT m converting :) Dec 07 13:57
mizmo Roobarb-Home, in my understanding RGB is never for printing Dec 07 13:57
mizmo Roobarb-Home, for printing you either use CMYK, which is offset, or pantone spot colors Dec 07 13:57
mizmo when you use RGB for printing, you get things like purple fedora CDs (yes this happened for the fedora 7 media :) ) Dec 07 13:57
mizmo everybody ready to continue? Dec 07 13:58
LukasT yep Dec 07 13:58
dgrift i am Dec 07 13:58
*nirik nods. Dec 07 13:58
mizmo okay so the first thing i'm going to go over is masking Dec 07 13:58
mizmo so when a lot of folks first start out with the gimp and similar tools, they tend to use the eraser tool a lot Dec 07 13:58
mizmo sometimes they might erase something they didn't mean to, and then have to press "undo" a million times Dec 07 13:59
mizmo well, there is no need for that with masks Dec 07 13:59
mizmo you basically apply a mask to your image, depending on the type of mask, if you paint white on the mask then you'll be painting your image, if you paint black on the mask then you'll be "erasing" your image Dec 07 13:59
mizmo shades of grey make the image show up partly transparent depending on the depth of the grey Dec 07 14:00
mizmo if you make a mistake 'erasing' with your black strokes, you can go back and fix it by repainting your image with white Dec 07 14:00
mizmo it'll become clear when we go ahead and do it Dec 07 14:00
mizmo so what i want you to do first is click on the 'duplicate layer' button in the 'layers' palette Dec 07 14:00
mizmo if you cant find the layers palette, go to windows > dockable dialogs > layers or hit ctrl + L Dec 07 14:01
mizmo clicking the 'duplicate layer' button should give you a second copy of the image Dec 07 14:01
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mizmo and it should be called "Background copy" Dec 07 14:01
mizmo what i then like to do is click the little eyeball icon to the left of the background layer and hide it Dec 07 14:02
mizmo i keep it around as a 'backup copy' just in case Dec 07 14:02
mizmo everyone following so far? Dec 07 14:02
LukasT yep Dec 07 14:02
dgrift yes Dec 07 14:02
mizmo okay so what we do next is right click that second copy layer, which is our working layer Dec 07 14:03
mizmo and about halfway down the layer select "add layer mask" Dec 07 14:03
mizmo initialize the layer to white (full opacity) Dec 07 14:03
mizmo here's a screenshot so far (http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss1.png) Dec 07 14:04
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mizmo so notice you've now got the girl in a little preview on the left and to the right side youve got a little white layer Dec 07 14:05
mizmo the white layer is your mask Dec 07 14:05
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mizmo if you want to see what the mask looks like, you can right click the layer and click 'show layer mask' Dec 07 14:05
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mizmo note that by default, when you add a layer mask to an image, "edit layer mask" is always on by default Dec 07 14:06
mizmo sometimes you can be trying to draw on the working image itself and get frustrated that you don't seem to be affecting it - if it's got a mask, look at that checkbox to see if that is what's going on :) Dec 07 14:06
mizmo so go ahead and click 'show layer mask' on the layer Dec 07 14:06
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mizmo and here's our first, rather weird trick, Dec 07 14:07
mizmo we're going to paint with this poor girl :) Dec 07 14:07
mizmo fill in the layer mask with black Dec 07 14:07
mizmo and then in white, use the brush tool to draw a silly little sketch or write something Dec 07 14:08
LukasT nice :) Dec 07 14:08
mizmo to see your strange painting, right click the layer and uncheck 'show layer mask' Dec 07 14:09
mizmo you may want to click 'new layer' and fill it with white, then move it under your working layer to get a better look at your wonderful new art :) Dec 07 14:09
mizmo here's mine: Dec 07 14:10
mizmo before: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss2.png Dec 07 14:10
mizmo after: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss3.png Dec 07 14:10
Roobarb-Home ooh freaky Dec 07 14:11
mizmo you can do this with any type of source image Dec 07 14:11
mizmo so sometimes, you might see text that is written with say letters made out of fire, or made out of ice, or made out of metal Dec 07 14:11
mizmo sometimes what artists do is get a source image that is a picture of fire, ice, metal, or some other texture Dec 07 14:11
mizmo then use a mask to make that texture the filling for their letters or work Dec 07 14:12
mizmo this works better than the pattern fill tool, Dec 07 14:12
mj0vy1 great..! Dec 07 14:12
mizmo because you can click and drag the mask to find the best spot within the texture/pattern for the fill to sit in Dec 07 14:12
Roobarb-Home ah nice Dec 07 14:12
mizmo okay so here's one more advanced technique for this trick :) Dec 07 14:12
mizmo take your backup copy of the girl Dec 07 14:12
mizmo move it to the top of the layer stack Dec 07 14:13
behdad photofonts! Dec 07 14:13
mizmo and the opacity slider at the top of the layers list? while having your backup girl selected in the layers palette, move the slider to about 50% Dec 07 14:13
mizmo now, right click your working layer, and 'show layer mask' again Dec 07 14:13
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mizmo clear off your layer mask - you can just hit ctrl+a to select all in the layer mask, and ctrl+x to erase it Dec 07 14:14
mizmo everyone with me? Dec 07 14:14
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*nirik thinks so. Dec 07 14:15
mj0vy1 yes ..(guess) Dec 07 14:15
mizmo basically what we're doing here is superimposing a partially-transparent copy of the original image ON TOP OF the layer mask Dec 07 14:15
mizmo so we can see the source image while we work with the mask Dec 07 14:15
mizmo this enables you to do creepy things like only show (if the source image is a person) the person's eyes, mouth, and ears Dec 07 14:16
mizmo so fill your layer mask in with black again Dec 07 14:16
mizmo and get out your brush, using white as the color Dec 07 14:16
mizmo and trace over the girl's eyes and mouth Dec 07 14:16
mizmo (her ears arent very visible :) ) Dec 07 14:17
mizmo one trick that is handy to know here Dec 07 14:18
mizmo is that you can use the magic wand selection tool on the layer of the girl above the mask, Dec 07 14:18
mizmo then select the mask layer in the layer dialog Dec 07 14:18
mizmo and use the selection from the top layer in the mask layer Dec 07 14:19
mizmo im using that technique to select her sunglasses to fill them in white Dec 07 14:19
mizmo in the mask Dec 07 14:19
mizmo here's my work in progress: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss4.png Dec 07 14:19
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mizmo when you're happy with your mask, of course Dec 07 14:21
mizmo right click the working layer, and uncheck 'show layer mask' Dec 07 14:21
mizmo mine looks really funny lol, let me show you Dec 07 14:21
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss5.png Dec 07 14:22
mizmo so if i wanted to make this girl into a mr. potato head Dec 07 14:22
mizmo i could look for a CC-BY licensed image of a potato Dec 07 14:22
mizmo and put the potato right-side-up in a layer behind my working layer :) Dec 07 14:22
SSlater How to take the selection from one layer to another? Dec 07 14:23
mizmo SSlater, you simply click on the layer you want to apply the selection to in the layers palette Dec 07 14:23
mizmo SSlater, so step by step: Dec 07 14:23
mizmo 1) click on the layer you want to make a selection from. Dec 07 14:23
mizmo 2) pick up the magic wand tool, and select the areas you want (if you hold down the shift key while you click the magic wand tool, it'll add selection areas together to be one big selection area) Dec 07 14:23
SSlater yes Dec 07 14:23
SSlater right Dec 07 14:24
mizmo 3) when you are happy with your selection area, click on a different layer, the layer you want to apply the selection to Dec 07 14:24
mizmo SSlater, did that work for ya? Dec 07 14:24
mizmo have i lost anybody? Dec 07 14:24
SSlater I see now, thanks. Dec 07 14:24
mizmo does anyone have any questions? Dec 07 14:25
mizmo what we're going to do next is turn this girl into a zebra Dec 07 14:26
mizmo it's going to be awesome Dec 07 14:26
mizmo first I want you to download this CC-BY image of a zebra that I found Dec 07 14:27
mizmo http://flickr.com/photos/lipkee/2904603582/ Dec 07 14:27
mizmo get the largest size available Dec 07 14:27
mizmo oh actually Dec 07 14:27
mizmo that one is small let me find the bigge rone Dec 07 14:27
mizmo here we go, this one is better: Dec 07 14:27
mizmo http://flickr.com/photos/tiswango/459316087/sizes/o/ Dec 07 14:27
*inode0 goes back to the beginning to see how classes work when you miss the first hour of them :( Dec 07 14:28
mizmo hehe Dec 07 14:28
mizmo inode0, well if you want Dec 07 14:28
mizmo im about to start the next trick Dec 07 14:28
mizmo if you want to start from there Dec 07 14:28
mizmo and you could go back later to do the other ones Dec 07 14:28
mizmo you'll need to download this: http://flickr.com/photos/tiswango/459316087/sizes/o/ Dec 07 14:28
mizmo and this: http://flickr.com/photos/gaetanlee/2482895280/sizes/o/ Dec 07 14:29
mizmo inode0, we started late, at 8:45 my time Dec 07 14:29
mizmo okay so you can delete or hide your current working layer now Dec 07 14:29
LukasT 14:45 my time :) Dec 07 14:29
mizmo make another copy of your original photo of the girl Dec 07 14:30
inode0 I was here early but got called away and just got back, will try to pick up now Dec 07 14:30
mizmo and hide your backup copy by clicking on the eyeball to the left of it in the layers palette Dec 07 14:30
mizmo right click your new working layer, and again add a layer mask (again selecting white / full opacity) Dec 07 14:31
mizmo so here is what we are going to do, we are going to make a mask that contains only the girl's face and neck - basically the areas of skin that we want to apply the zebra texture to Dec 07 14:31
mizmo note that while the original source image is showing, you're in layer mask edit mode Dec 07 14:32
mizmo so if you make magic wand selections and fill them, it will apply to the layer mask Dec 07 14:32
mizmo there are a few techniques for selecting large areas in a photo Dec 07 14:32
mizmo we're just going to do the simplest - outline the areas you want carefully with the paintbrush, painting them black inside the layer mask, Dec 07 14:33
mizmo then filling the middle with black Dec 07 14:33
mizmo okay so here's what i've got now: Dec 07 14:36
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss6.png Dec 07 14:36
mizmo i'm about ready to fill in my outline with black Dec 07 14:36
mizmo in the layer mask Dec 07 14:36
LukasT mizmo: do you use mouse or tablet? Dec 07 14:36
mizmo LukasT, i've got a tablet laptop :) Dec 07 14:36
mizmo any other questions? Dec 07 14:37
Skarllot it can be done in GIMP 2.4.7? Dec 07 14:37
mizmo Skarllot, absolutely :) Dec 07 14:37
mizmo okay i'm gong to move forward in the interest of time Dec 07 14:38
mizmo i hope i've still got folks with me :) Dec 07 14:38
mizmo so, we've got a black mask over the girls face , Dec 07 14:38
SSlater done Dec 07 14:38
mizmo i goofed a bit, we want the mask to be white in the mask layer Dec 07 14:38
mizmo but this is okay, it's a simple step Dec 07 14:38
mizmo we just invert the mask Dec 07 14:38
Roobarb-Home hmm, I'm gonna have to go back through this on my main workstation - these big files are killing my poor laptop Dec 07 14:39
mizmo we do this by going to colors > invert Dec 07 14:39
mizmo Roobarb-Home, sorry :( :( Dec 07 14:39
Roobarb-Home 'tis ok Dec 07 14:39
mizmo Roobarb-Home, i'll note that for next time. i'll pick smaller files next time. Dec 07 14:39
mizmo so here's what i had after i filled in: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss6.png Dec 07 14:39
Roobarb-Home they're uncompressing to ~150MB Dec 07 14:39
mizmo here's what i have after inverting: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss8.png Dec 07 14:40
mizmo now you'll note there are some areas we do not want to put zebra on Dec 07 14:40
mizmo her sunglasses and her mouth Dec 07 14:40
mizmo  :) Dec 07 14:40
mizmo which we already created a mask for Dec 07 14:40
mizmo so this should be easy, Dec 07 14:40
mizmo we want to mask out her eyeglasses and her mouth using white Dec 07 14:40
mizmo so that the zebra won't apply to them Dec 07 14:41
mizmo so im going to go ahead and do that real quick Dec 07 14:41
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mizmo oh except now im inverted Dec 07 14:41
mizmo so im going to mask them wqith black (sorry) Dec 07 14:41
mizmo so here's what i've got now:  http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss9.png Dec 07 14:44
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mizmo next i'm going to pull in that zebra image i downloaded. I'll do this by going to file > open as layer Dec 07 14:44
mizmo and im finding the resolution of the girl is a bit too high in comparison to the zebra Dec 07 14:45
mizmo she's at a pretty huge resolution Dec 07 14:45
mizmo so i'm going to size my image down 50% Dec 07 14:45
mizmo image > scale image, select percent dropdown, type 50 in Dec 07 14:45
mizmo and then i'm going to 'open as layers...' the zebra one more time, and it should fit over her better this time Dec 07 14:45
mizmo im going to make the zebra layer 50% so i can work out how to position it Dec 07 14:46
mizmo here's what that looks like: Dec 07 14:46
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss10.png Dec 07 14:46
mizmo im going to use the layer rotate tool to get the zebra fitting my mask area Dec 07 14:47
mizmo here's the fit i ended up with: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss11.png Dec 07 14:48
mizmo now im going to make the zebra layer 100% again Dec 07 14:48
mizmo im going to hide it by clicking on the eye icon to the left of it in the layers palette Dec 07 14:49
mizmo and im going to go in to my working layer with the girl, and copy the mask from her and add it to the zebra :) Dec 07 14:49
mizmo so im going to select my old working layer of the girl + face mask Dec 07 14:49
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mizmo im going to right click it and select 'show layer mask' Dec 07 14:49
mizmo i'm going to hit ctrl+a to select all, and ctrl+c to copy Dec 07 14:49
mizmo then i'm going to select the zebra layer, right click it, add layer mask, full opacity/white Dec 07 14:50
mizmo and im going to click ctrl+v to paste the layer mask into the zebra Dec 07 14:50
mizmo i'll click the eye to make the zebra layer visible again Dec 07 14:50
mizmo and i should see zebra skin in the shape of the girl's face! Dec 07 14:51
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss12.png Dec 07 14:51
mizmo so now, i will show my backup copy layer of the girl by clicking the eye icon next to it in the layers palette Dec 07 14:51
mizmo and ill get tihs: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss13.png Dec 07 14:52
mizmo not exactly awesome right? :) Dec 07 14:52
mizmo well we're not finished Dec 07 14:52
mizmo select the zebra layer Dec 07 14:52
mizmo and in the mode dropdown in the layers palette Dec 07 14:52
mizmo select burn Dec 07 14:53
mizmo and make the opacity about 60% Dec 07 14:53
mizmo duplicate the zebra layer Dec 07 14:53
mizmo in the mode dropdown for the second zebra layer, select 'saturation' Dec 07 14:54
mizmo do that about 80% Dec 07 14:54
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/gimp/ss14.png Dec 07 14:54
mizmo that's a bit more realistic / awesome-looking :) Dec 07 14:54
mizmo you can see some sloppiness in my masks along her neckline, and in her teeth Dec 07 14:55
zcat funky Dec 07 14:55
mizmo but i did a quick sloppy job :) i can always easily correct these mistakes by painting either white or black in the mask Dec 07 14:55
mizmo no need to go back and un-do or re-do anything Dec 07 14:55
mizmo so that's about what i've got Dec 07 14:56
mizmo sorry i ran over a bit Dec 07 14:56
mizmo does anyone have any questions? Dec 07 14:56
SSlater I have a floating selection (Pasted layer) and cannot select the zebra layer. Dec 07 14:56
LukasT thank you mizmo, I learn to use masks :) Dec 07 14:56
mizmo SSlater, when you have a floating selection, it will go to the layer that's directly below it Dec 07 14:56
SSlater okay. Dec 07 14:57
mizmo SSlater, you click the anchor icon to make it go to that layer Dec 07 14:57
SSlater that's better, thanks. Dec 07 14:57
mizmo SSlater, if you're not happy with the layer it's under, and want to pick a different one, you can click the trashcan to delete the floating selection, select the layer you want, then hit ctrl+v to try again Dec 07 14:57
SSlater right. Dec 07 14:58
mizmo you can also use this technique Dec 07 14:58
mizmo with a photo of cracked dirt Dec 07 14:59
mizmo to make the person look like a zombie Dec 07 14:59
mizmo (see the upper right example here: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/barbara.png) Dec 07 14:59
mizmo also, i did this recently at a demo i gave Dec 07 14:59
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mizmo you can make the person look like they are made out of ice using an ice layer Dec 07 14:59
mizmo instead of zebra Dec 07 14:59
mizmo so you can take this technique and really run with it Dec 07 14:59
mizmo any more questions? Dec 07 15:00
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mizmo all right Dec 07 15:00
mizmo i gotta run Dec 07 15:00
nirik this might be something that would work well as a screencast file... so we can see exactly which things are done in which order. ;) Dec 07 15:00
mizmo yek Dec 07 15:00
mizmo yeh Dec 07 15:00
nirik thanks for the class mizmo ! Dec 07 15:00
mizmo it was my pleasure :) Dec 07 15:00
mizmo hope you folks had fun Dec 07 15:00
SSlater Thanks mizmo. Dec 07 15:01
mizmo and i hope this inspires you to play around with the gimp a little more Dec 07 15:01
mizmo just wanted to throw in a little shameless promo, the fedora art team is always looking for more artists to help out :) Dec 07 15:01
mizmo fedora-art-list@redhat.com Dec 07 15:01
mizmo later :) Dec 07 15:01
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nirik well, we don't have any more classes scheduled today, but there is a wrap up session... Dec 07 15:02
Skarllot what computer is recomended to these operations? Dec 07 15:02
nirik I can wait and do that at the time scheduled on the wiki, and/or I would be happy to take any questions or feedback about the classes anytime now... ;) Dec 07 15:02
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Skarllot here is very slow editing these images Dec 07 15:02
nirik Skarllot: for gimp? lots of memory is good... images take up a lot. Dec 07 15:02
Skarllot I have 2GB Dec 07 15:03
Skarllot by now is using 1,3GB Dec 07 15:03
nirik if anyone has suggestions on improving classes, ideas for classes, desire to teach classes, or general comments, feel free to add them here, or contact me. Dec 07 15:03
nirik wow... I didn't think it was that bad here... let me look. Dec 07 15:03
nirik mine is only using about 600MB... ;( Dec 07 15:04
nirik Skarllot: what version of fedora and gimp? Dec 07 15:04
Skarllot 2.6.27.5-41.fc9.x86_64 Dec 07 15:05
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Skarllot GIMP 2.4.7 Dec 07 15:06
nirik wonder if the newer gimp improved memory usage a lot. Dec 07 15:06
nirik I have 2.6.3 here. Dec 07 15:06
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Skarllot I'll can get 2.6.3 only in fedora 10, right? Dec 07 15:07
nirik yeah, I think so... it requires other new packages. Dec 07 15:07
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Skarllot fedora 10 is stable enought to nvidia cards? Dec 07 15:08
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*nirik has an intel... you can always try a live media and see how it works before you upgrade. Dec 07 15:08

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