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nirik FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, sharkcz, jds2001, j-rod Apr 24 11:00
nirik Hi everybody; who's around? Apr 24 11:00
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*bpepple is here. Apr 24 11:00
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*jds2001 here for a few minutes Apr 24 11:00
dwmw2 fish Apr 24 11:00
jds2001 well 30 minutes, then i have a call to get on and will be inattentive but maybe looking :) Apr 24 11:00
*sharkcz is here Apr 24 11:00
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nirik jds2001: ticket 136 is done right, so we have no FPC stuff to review this time? Apr 24 11:01
jds2001 right Apr 24 11:01
jds2001 did i not close it? Apr 24 11:01
nirik seems to be open still. Apr 24 11:02
*dgilmore is here Apr 24 11:02
jds2001 fail. Apr 24 11:02
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---nirik has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at -- Sponsor Nominations Apr 24 11:02
nirik ok, shall we get started with sponsor nominations? Apr 24 11:02
nirik .fesco 135 Apr 24 11:02
zodbot nirik: #135 (Sponsorship nomination: mmahut) - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:02
jds2001 +1 Apr 24 11:03
bpepple +1 here also. Apr 24 11:03
sharkcz +1 Apr 24 11:03
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bpepple dwmw2, nirik: ? Apr 24 11:05
nirik +1 here as well. I think he's improved a lot since he started and done a lot of reviews now. Apr 24 11:05
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dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 11:05
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nirik ok, so thats +5 so they are approved. Apr 24 11:06
nirik .fesco 137 Apr 24 11:06
zodbot nirik: #137 (Sponsorship Request - s4504kr) - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:06
bpepple +1. I looked at a bunch of reviews last night, and didn't see anything that caused me concern about making him a sponsor. Apr 24 11:08
nirik Jochen hasn't seemed all that active of late with reviews... but perhaps getting him to sponsor people would make him more active. Apr 24 11:08
nirik so, +1 here. (all the reviews I saw were ok as well) Apr 24 11:08
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tibbs Didn't he ask for sponsorship a couple of years ago? Apr 24 11:08
bpepple tibbs: possibly. Apr 24 11:09
jds2001 he asked for provenpackager when we reseeded and was approved Apr 24 11:09
sharkcz +1, IIRC we did mutually few reviews and have no problems Apr 24 11:10
jds2001 +1 Apr 24 11:11
jds2001 dwmw2: ? Apr 24 11:11
nirik dgilmore / dwmw2 ? Apr 24 11:11
dwmw2 trying to have an opinion :) Apr 24 11:11
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 11:11
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nirik so thats +5, they are approved. Apr 24 11:12
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nirik .fesco 138 Apr 24 11:12
dgilmore +1 Apr 24 11:12
zodbot nirik: #138 (Sponsorship request: peter) - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:12
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nirik +1 to peter here. Apr 24 11:14
sharkcz +1 here also Apr 24 11:14
bpepple +1 Apr 24 11:14
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 11:14
jds2001 +1 here too Apr 24 11:15
nirik dgilmore: ? Apr 24 11:15
jds2001 we have five :) Apr 24 11:15
nirik yeah, +5 so this request is approved. Apr 24 11:15
nirik .fesco 139 Apr 24 11:16
zodbot nirik: #139 (Sponsorship request: jussilehtola) - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:16
*nirik has an issue with the reasoning on this one. Apr 24 11:16
*nirik looks for what he was remembering. Apr 24 11:16
jds2001 this wasnt a self-nomination either. Apr 24 11:17
*dwmw2 doesn't see a problem, but waits for nirik Apr 24 11:17
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*jds2001 also doesn't see an issue. Apr 24 11:17
nirik perhaps it was someone else. They said they wanted to have provenpackager to make changes for merge reviews. Apr 24 11:17
bpepple +1 to jussilehtola. Apr 24 11:17
jds2001 oh, yeah that was someone else Apr 24 11:17
jds2001 +1 Apr 24 11:17
sharkcz +1 Apr 24 11:17
nirik yeah, I am crazy. Sorry. Apr 24 11:18
jds2001 nirik: we alreay knew that :) Apr 24 11:18
*nirik nods. ;) Apr 24 11:18
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 11:18
dgilmore sorry i just had a ups crap itself Apr 24 11:18
dwmw2 well, jissilehtola's nomination _does_ mention merge reviews Apr 24 11:19
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*nirik is looking... have they only done 20 reviews? one of those links is not right. Apr 24 11:19
jds2001 i see 60 Apr 24 11:19
nirik ah, much better. Apr 24 11:19
jds2001 i think one is his submissions Apr 24 11:19
jds2001 i think i forwarded this from my cell Apr 24 11:20
jds2001 so didnt actually look at the links prior to forwarding/insert my own. Apr 24 11:20
nirik yes, it was them... let me link to the email. Apr 24 11:20
nirik Apr 24 11:21
nirik I think that if a maintainer on a merge review says: ok, all your stuff is minor and looks fine to me, but I am busy, can you commit build it. Thats great. Apr 24 11:21
nirik I don't think we should have reviewers fix packages for merge reviews unless they are wanting to maintain them moving forward. Apr 24 11:22
nirik or the maintainer wants them too and understands the changes. Apr 24 11:22
dwmw2 nirik: if a maintainer says nothing, I think it's fine for a competent (proven) packager to just go fix the thing too Apr 24 11:23
mharris I've got bucketloads of time to throw around quite often and have been thinking of diving back into things lately. I'd be willing to help dive through the backlog of rpm packages needing review/packaging/fixing/etc. Apr 24 11:23
abadger1999 Maybe FESCo should have a policy of "no reply to merge review; announce on fedora-devel; wait 1 week" Apr 24 11:23
nirik then we don't really have a maintainer do we? shouldn't we rather start non responsive maintainer on it? Apr 24 11:23
mharris Any idea what the current backlog tally is? Apr 24 11:24
dwmw2 abadger1999: I think we should have a policy of not having too many policies Apr 24 11:24
nirik mharris: that would be excellent. It's big... Apr 24 11:24
abadger1999 mharris: You would be a hero. Right up there with Saint tibbs :-) Apr 24 11:24
jds2001 mharris: according to that mail ~400 Apr 24 11:24
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abadger1999 dwmw2: Let me see, would that be policy number 542 or 543? Apr 24 11:24
dwmw2 grant provenpackager to jussi, with a comment "please don't piss people off" Apr 24 11:24
abadger1999 :-) Apr 24 11:24
dwmw2 no need for a policy :) Apr 24 11:24
mharris Well, I've been wanting to start contributing packages again, and I figured I'd submit them into the pile that is already there to wait forever like everyone else so... why not tackle the problem from the other end. :) Apr 24 11:25
tibbs Merge reviews are somewhat special, though. Apr 24 11:25
mharris jds2001: which mail? I'm not on many lists currently, but will sign up. Apr 24 11:25
tibbs Remember that currently many of the maintainers aren't even CC'd on the review tickets, so they won't see any responses. Apr 24 11:25
nirik dwmw2: well, I would be ok with voicing my concerns to them. That email worries me tho that they would change something without any input from the maintainer. Apr 24 11:25
dwmw2 merge reviews are only "special" because nobody actually cares about them Apr 24 11:25
jds2001 mharris: Apr 24 11:25
jds2001 that's the merge review backlog Apr 24 11:25
dwmw2 when reviews are a hoop to jump through to get your packages accepted, people care (and they have a good effect on quality) Apr 24 11:25
tibbs Some folks do care, once they actually start getting the bugzilla messages. Apr 24 11:26
jds2001 the review backlog is larger, but part of it is those 452 Apr 24 11:26
dwmw2 but nobody _cares_ about either doing merge reviews, or fixing stuff that's highlighted. Apr 24 11:26
sharkcz tibbs: true, the ownership of the former core packages changes during the time in RH Apr 24 11:26
dwmw2 mostly, with a few conscientious exceptions Apr 24 11:26
dwmw2 I definitely don't want to _discourage_ those exceptions by withholding provenpackager status :) Apr 24 11:26
jds2001 so this is a sponsorship request too, not just provenpackager. Apr 24 11:27
*nirik nods. Apr 24 11:27
jds2001 just wanted to make sure ppl were aware :) Apr 24 11:27
mharris jds2001: Thanks, I'll get up to scratch on that. I need to make a new account on the system as well, it's been a while... ;) Apr 24 11:28
abadger1999 mharris: SIGs/Package_Review Apr 24 11:28
nirik I guess it might be good to note to anyone doing merge reviews a few things: 1) make sure the current maintainer gets cced. 2) make sure you check against the current rawhide package. Apr 24 11:28
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nirik mharris: feel free to catch me sometime to review/sponsor you back into the right groups. Apr 24 11:28
mharris ok Apr 24 11:29
mharris abadger1999: thanks Apr 24 11:29
nirik anyhow, I guess we are drifting here... so where do we stand? Apr 24 11:29
dwmw2 nirik: that makes sense. Those are in the policy on touching other people's packages anyway, aren't they? Apr 24 11:29
dwmw2 did we finish voting on this request? Apr 24 11:29
bpepple I think we were at 4 votes for his request. Apr 24 11:30
nirik dwmw2: sure, but that email makes me concered that they think making changes for a merge review is all ok. I guess as long as they agree to only make minor changes or with the maintainers approval I am ok with it. Apr 24 11:30
dwmw2 we can convey that message with the 'approval granted' notice. Apr 24 11:31
nirik I will +1 this request, and can reply to their devel post with my concerns. Apr 24 11:31
dwmw2 or your concerns could be phrased as FESCo's concerns, in the 'official' response, if you prefer. Apr 24 11:31
dwmw2 I don't think anyone seriously disagrees. Apr 24 11:31
nirik either way or both would be fine with me. Apr 24 11:32
nirik so thats +5, so they are approved. Apr 24 11:32
nirik .fesco 140 Apr 24 11:32
zodbot nirik: #140 (Please make me a member of 'provenpackagers') - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:32
jds2001 oops Apr 24 11:32
jds2001 this is lennart Apr 24 11:32
bpepple +1 to lennart being proven packager. Apr 24 11:32
*jds2001 didnt modify the subject :( Apr 24 11:32
jds2001 +1 Apr 24 11:32
sharkcz +1 Apr 24 11:33
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 11:33
nirik +1 (allowing him to assist with other desktop packages sound issues sounds like a good idea to me) Apr 24 11:33
nirik thats +5, so we have approved this request. Apr 24 11:34
nirik ok, on to the fun pulseaudio discussion. Apr 24 11:34
nirik .fesco 141 Apr 24 11:34
zodbot nirik: #141 (PulseAudio regression handling) - FESCo - Trac - Apr 24 11:35
nirik dwmw2: care to lead this discussion/voice your concerns? Apr 24 11:35
dwmw2 we've broken a bunch of cases which used to work Apr 24 11:35
dwmw2 we respond by calling them 'weird' Apr 24 11:35
dwmw2 I don't think that's good enough. Apr 24 11:35
mezcalero btw, may i say something too? Apr 24 11:36
dwmw2 to be clear: I'm _not_ complaining about bugs and unreliability. That sucked for F-10 but I think we have a better handle on it for F-11 Apr 24 11:36
dwmw2 they've been doing a good job of improving that Apr 24 11:36
bpepple mezcalero: definitely. Apr 24 11:36
dwmw2 mezcalero: go ahead Apr 24 11:36
mezcalero oops, sorry doing two things at the same time Apr 24 11:37
mezcalero "a bunch of cases" Apr 24 11:37
mezcalero is not exactly true Apr 24 11:37
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mezcalero afaics there are two things Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero 1) the thing about the input source selection Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero there is a bug open about this Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero situation is not that great Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero but i don't think a real problem Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero i never closed that issue btw Apr 24 11:38
nirik in this case we need to fix each of the broken alsa drivers? Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero some folks an i decided to fix that in f12 and add a comment in the release notes Apr 24 11:38
mezcalero which afaik has happened Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero no, this is about the alsa apis being broken Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero but i will work around this for f12 Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero just read the bug report Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero lemme find it Apr 24 11:39
nirik ok, so it's an alsalib issue? Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero Apr 24 11:39
buggbot Bug 491372: medium, high, ---, lpoetter, NEW, Doesn't handle switching inputs on one device Apr 24 11:39
nirik picking the wrong {PCM|MASTER|whatever} Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero no, it's not about that Apr 24 11:39
dwmw2 that's a separate issue Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero read that bug report Apr 24 11:39
mezcalero then issue 2) goes like this: Apr 24 11:40
*nirik reads Apr 24 11:40
dwmw2 the input-selection thing is still open, so that's fine. Apr 24 11:40
dwmw2 it's kind of suboptimal that we introduce a regression that has to wait so long for a fix, but at least we're working on it. Apr 24 11:40
mezcalero dwmw2 wants to use the line-in of his sound card in a way i think is out of scope for pa Apr 24 11:40
mezcalero and that's what i said, and closed the bug Apr 24 11:41
mezcalero referring him to use the low-level alsa mixer Apr 24 11:41
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dwmw2 I think someone else was the line-in one Apr 24 11:41
ixs the line in was wwoods IIRC Apr 24 11:41
dwmw2 I just wanted to be able to turn my speakers on and off Apr 24 11:41
mezcalero everyones first reaction was that this is quite an exotic use of a sound card Apr 24 11:41
mezcalero and pa focusses to make the common case easy Apr 24 11:41
mezcalero and the uncommon cases can still be supported too Apr 24 11:42
mezcalero but outside of pa Apr 24 11:42
mezcalero i.e. by dropping to alsamixer Apr 24 11:42
mezcalero dwmw2 insists that his usage is not niche Apr 24 11:42
mezcalero and to use alsamixer for this is too much to ask for Apr 24 11:42
mezcalero oh, there was that third thing Apr 24 11:43
dwmw2 I insist that there are a _lot_ of use cases outside the core 'play flash sounds and video' which aren't supported by the PA Apr 24 11:43
nirik the issue is that many people have no idea alsamixer exists. Apr 24 11:43
abadger1999 if this is the monitor line-in one, I recall at least one poster saying this wasn't that exotic a use case with an example. Apr 24 11:43
dwmw2 including just 'maximise the usable volume from what's playing right now', even. Apr 24 11:43
mezcalero nirik: sure, but those people don't want to use a mixer in this weird way Apr 24 11:43
dwmw2 I can't tell me father to use alsamixer. Apr 24 11:43
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mharris dwmw2: +1 Apr 24 11:44
dwmw2 If there was an 'advanced...' button in the new gnome-volume-control which gave me the old settings, that might work. Or if there was a way to get back to the controls we had in F-10. Apr 24 11:44
mezcalero using the sound card like this is only done by people who actually know that it can be done. it's a weird way to use a sound card Apr 24 11:44
mezcalero and since they are pros, they can just use alsamixer or another tool Apr 24 11:44
jwb that's the dumbest argument i have ever heard Apr 24 11:44
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mezcalero love you too Apr 24 11:44
dwmw2 My father has recently taken up folk music and morris dancing Apr 24 11:45
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dgilmore mezcalero: when i do video calls to my mum i need to ssh to her box and fix up the volume settings Apr 24 11:45
abadger1999 mezcalero: Uhm... the poster was saying it's common to hook an mp3 player up to a computer and then have the sound go to the computer's speakers. Which would be a very end-user'ish thing to do. Apr 24 11:45
jwb seeing that you have a 'line-in' jack on your sound card and expecting it to work does not make you an expert Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 he's starting to play an instrument, and even record stuff. Apr 24 11:45
mezcalero abadger1999: yes, i doubt this is so common Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 He knows that he can feed audio into a device through its 'line in' socket. Apr 24 11:45
mezcalero abadger1999: it's a niceh usage, out of pa's focus Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 and hooks up things like tape recorders. Apr 24 11:45
mezcalero abadger1999: if you want to do it, do it with raw alsa Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 and he's a complete muppet when it comes to computers Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 I'm happy with "out of PA's focus" as an answer. Apr 24 11:45
abadger1999 To hook an mp3 player up to your computer and play sounds? Apr 24 11:45
dwmw2 But not with "out of Fedora's focus" Apr 24 11:46
mezcalero pa doesn't do pro audio stuff Apr 24 11:46
mezcalero we don't do hdr Apr 24 11:46
mezcalero we don't do music production Apr 24 11:46
abadger1999 That is so end-user-ish I don't know what to say. Apr 24 11:46
mezcalero if you want input feedback monitoring, then don't use pa Apr 24 11:46
dwmw2 ok, fine. Apr 24 11:46
dwmw2 that's the answer. Apr 24 11:46
dwmw2 how do we do that in Fedora? Apr 24 11:46
mharris One thing I find disconcerting, is how projects seem to get together a small handful of developers in a room, make up ficticious end users, then decide how those people probably use a computer and design to that. There is no actual real world studies done on how real people use the computer. Apr 24 11:46
dwmw2 I need my father to "don't use pa", as instructred Apr 24 11:46
ixs They way I see it, following the discussion: PA is a nice audio solution for a very specific use case. But is it the right way to make this specific use case the default? Or should it be user-installable as e.g. jack, which I consider to be built for pro-audio? Apr 24 11:46
bpepple abadger1999: really? I'm sorta with mezcalero that it's not that common of a scenario. Apr 24 11:46
drago01 mezcalero: its not really about PA (people do not care what is happening in the background) but they complain about the default UI Apr 24 11:47
mharris Just a long series of (false) assumptions about how people use the computer based on random guesswork. Apr 24 11:47
dwmw2 ixs: it's Ok for it to be the default, I think. But not to the exclusion of all other (non-text-mode) possibilities Apr 24 11:47
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ixs mharris: +1 Apr 24 11:47
drago01 mezcalero: so they not asking for support in PA but in gnome-volume-control Apr 24 11:47
dwmw2 one of the problems is that getting things "right" involves having an accurate database of how various bizarre hardware works Apr 24 11:47
dwmw2 and that database can _never_ be perfect. Apr 24 11:47
mezcalero people are asking us, to include support for all kinds of niche usages of sound cards into the volume control UIs Apr 24 11:47
mezcalero and i just don't think that makes any sense Apr 24 11:47
dwmw2 even for the 'common' case you're often going to find that the user needs to tweak stuff Apr 24 11:47
nirik is there any page/description of exactly what pulseaudios "focus" is? and use cases that are supported/not supported? Apr 24 11:47
dgilmore bpepple: i think its a pretty common use case Apr 24 11:47
mharris Now, if the GNOME project could back up a number of these decisions by citing actual real world studies on real human beings, that would be something else. Apr 24 11:48
mezcalero for those niche and pro audio uses, don't use g-v-c Apr 24 11:48
mharris And not 10 people picked at random. Maybe 1000 or 10000. Apr 24 11:48
mezcalero the same as you wouldn't use it for audio production, where you'd use JACK Apr 24 11:48
dwmw2 In Fedora 10 there was a way for users to do all these things, and it was in gnome-volume-control. Apr 24 11:48
mezcalero so, it's just a matter of deciding whether those exotic uses are important enough to have them in g-v-c, or not Apr 24 11:49
dwmw2 g-v-c was a mess, at times, and could do with hiding some of the controls -- but I thought it _did_ that, and you had to manually go into the preferences and make the weird ones visible? Apr 24 11:49
mezcalero and i say not, they are not Apr 24 11:49
mharris dwmw2: maybe pressing CTRL-L? ;) Apr 24 11:49
abadger1999 bpepple: How do you play sounds from your mp3 player for a roomful of people? Dedicated speakers? Stereo sysem? TV? Apr 24 11:49
dwmw2 and we made it simpler in F-11, which is great Apr 24 11:49
f13 dwmw2: the problem was that for some people, the 'weird' ones were the ones that needed to be frobbed. Apr 24 11:49
dwmw2 but in doing so, we have _broken_ a number of use cases. We need to fix those. Give users _some_ way, graphically, of still tweaking the same settings. Apr 24 11:49
bpepple abadger1999: stereo. I don't usually keep a computer with decent speakers in any of my main room. Apr 24 11:50
abadger1999 Maybe it depends on budget. Some people have a computer because it can help do work but not the things that are "entertainment". Apr 24 11:50
dwmw2 f13: except in F-10 it _wasn't_ a huge problem, because you could still enable those ones and frob them to your heart's content. Apr 24 11:50
mezcalero the thing is, who decides which feature should be cluttering the UI and which shouldn't. Right now Bastien and Jon and I decided that none of the issues raised should be exposed. Apr 24 11:50
dwmw2 we hid them by _default_ only, and didn't actually prevent you from getting at them at all. Apr 24 11:50
f13 yeah, it was a bit of check every box and twiddle sliders until something happened Apr 24 11:50
ixs I think one of the problems is the definition of weird. Lennart considers line-in and cd audio weird and doesn't want to support these as it's outside the PA scope. I believe however, that our users are using their systems that way. Apr 24 11:50
ixs so for them, fedora is broken. Apr 24 11:50
mharris dwmw2: perhaps we could fire up winvol.exe in wine to get the job done... ;) Apr 24 11:50
mezcalero and i am unwilling to change that and refer folks to alsamixer Apr 24 11:50
abadger1999 bpepple: <nod>. But the computer speakers are better than earphones? So in a college dorm room, for instance, it would make sense? Apr 24 11:50
ixs offering them to install additional software or use another mixer from the menu doesn't work. Apr 24 11:50
mezcalero cd audio? Apr 24 11:50
ixs they will be clicking the mixer in the taskbar. Apr 24 11:50
ixs mezcalero: cdda audio input Apr 24 11:51
mezcalero afaik the gnome cdplayer grabs audio cds digitally Apr 24 11:51
ixs mezcalero: analog. Apr 24 11:51
bpepple abadger1999: possibly, but most of the college students I know have a dedicated speaker system for their ipods. Apr 24 11:51
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mezcalero so, if you really thinkg that the analog cd audio path matters then please bring that up with gnome-media first Apr 24 11:51
f13 I used line in to play my ipod for a long time Apr 24 11:51
ixs mezcalero: it does? My understanding was always that it's using the analog in as the volume can be changed by the CD-In slider. Apr 24 11:51
nirik I think we are going to have a lot of people mad unless there is a clear list of what pulseaudios focus is/use cases are. Apr 24 11:51
f13 even worse now that things like iphones and ipod touches can't be seen by audio players to play direct Apr 24 11:52
dwmw2 If we weren't so late in the process, I'd be suggesting that we follow the contingency plan for Features/VolumeControl Apr 24 11:52
mharris Another major problem that I see on the Linux desktop, is that there are a number of differing usage case groups for many different things, but no single entity wants to try to create a single solution that attempts to solve all the major issues for all of the major groups. Apr 24 11:52
mezcalero so again, these are all exotic uses. I am not barring anyone to make use of that. But Jon, Bastien and I just don't think it should be g-v-c Apr 24 11:52
nirik I also think pointing people to alsamixer is failure. Apr 24 11:52
dwmw2 I think we should have a button in the new volume control which runs the old one. Apr 24 11:52
mharris Instead, each group is considered a niche, and writes their own competing solution to the same problem with a focus on the features that matter most to their niche. Apr 24 11:52
f13 I don't think I agree with "exotic" for plugging an audio producing device into line in Apr 24 11:52
dwmw2 we _cannot_ get it right for all cases, and we have to recognise that fact. Apr 24 11:52
mharris So we have 10 different solutions to the same problem. Every solution does one thing and does it well, but fails at the other 10 things. Apr 24 11:52
mezcalero f13: when youw ant to record from it makes sense Apr 24 11:53
dwmw2 we also need to make sure that the PA volume handling isn't constantly trampling on the manual ALSA settings. Apr 24 11:53
mezcalero but a sound card is a pretty bad mixer for ananlog sources Apr 24 11:53
mharris esd/arts/alsa/pulse/nas/mas/.... Apr 24 11:53
f13 no, just playing it Apr 24 11:53
mharris And often switching from one solution to another *requires* one be somewhat of an expert even if they are not, but need the functionality. -> FAIL Apr 24 11:54
nirik so, for f11, can we get some other graphical mixer available for those that have use cases outside pulseaudio? Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero again, i don't think the UI should expose by default any of these exotic uses Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero if people want to make use of it Apr 24 11:55
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mezcalero they can use alsamixer or something similar Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero and if they don't know about that Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero they can read the release notes Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero or google for it Apr 24 11:55
dwmw2 nirik: I think that would be very useful, yes. Run the old g-v-c if the user presses an 'advanced...' button in the new one, or something. Apr 24 11:55
nirik what is in the release notes on this? Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero and will certainly find something that explains how to use alsamixer Apr 24 11:55
mezcalero or a similar tool Apr 24 11:55
dwmw2 we _removed_ the best 'similar tool' Apr 24 11:55
f13 I have my speakers plugged in, so that I hear pidgin or irc beeps, but I also want to play music from my device, my speakers don't have multiple inputs. Apr 24 11:55
f13 this is one of the good things about pulse, I can get all those sounds to play at once Apr 24 11:55
dwmw2 and made it useless for these peopel Apr 24 11:56
f13 before if I was listening to music, pidgin sounds would queue up Apr 24 11:56
f13 mezcalero: bad mixer or not, it can do it, and doing so I don't think is as exotic as you think i tis. Apr 24 11:56
nirik mezcalero: can you write up a page on what use cases pulse handles? so we can tell people with other cases that they need to go to another mixer? Apr 24 11:56
dwmw2 let's put it back, and make it possible to run it without having to jmp through hoops (but I'm still OK with not by default) Apr 24 11:56
mezcalero f13: then we disgree Apr 24 11:56
mclasen dwmw2: feel free to maintain it Apr 24 11:56
mclasen upstream too Apr 24 11:56
mezcalero nirik: dunno, i'd rather see a list of use-cases it doesn't handle, which we then can identify as "matters" and "doesn't matter" Apr 24 11:57
nirik mezcalero: well, if you don't have such a document, you will get a continual flow of bugs saying that it's broken, and getting mad if you just close them. Apr 24 11:57
nirik at least you can point them all at such a document. Apr 24 11:58
dwmw2 Proposal: FESCo is unhappy with the results of Features/VolumeControl and is very tempted to follow the contingency plan and revert it. Before doing that, we could like to ask the maintainers to pay more attention to the "exotic" use cases which they are intentionally disenfranchising: Apr 24 11:58
mezcalero no, i am not spending my time on making weird things work, sorry Apr 24 11:58
mezcalero this is ridicululous Apr 24 11:58
ixs dwmw2: that would prevent PA beeing seen as a regression? Apr 24 11:58
bpepple -1 to proposal. Apr 24 11:58
nirik -1 here as well. Apr 24 11:58
dwmw2 ixs: I think so, yes. Apr 24 11:58
drago01 ixs: its not about pa but the mixer UI ... Apr 24 11:59
leigh123linux -1 Apr 24 11:59
ixs drago01: is it such a big difference to the end user? Apr 24 11:59
dgilmore +1 Apr 24 11:59
dwmw2 bpepple, nirik, leigh123linux: would you care to say why? Do you think it's just badly phrased proposal, or do you disagree that we should care about such use cases, etc? Apr 24 12:00
drago01 ixs: no but claiming that pa stops you from doing this things is just wrong Apr 24 12:00
jwb we seem to have a simple case of an upstream project that refuses to consider outside input on what is important Apr 24 12:00
jwb what would we normally do in taht case? Apr 24 12:00
dwmw2 jwb: we wouldn't bet the farm on that project. We'd make it possibly to bypass that project for the cases where it isn't useful Apr 24 12:00
mezcalero what about the following proposal: if anybody really wants to see the old g-v-c available he is free to maintain that in fedora Apr 24 12:01
dwmw2 if it doesn't claim to be all things to all users, we wouldn't restrict our users to _only_ that project. Apr 24 12:01
nirik dwmw2: well, I think it's only likely to make mezcalero mad. We can't force people to work on things that they don't want to. I think we need to all relax and try and figure out more how we can compromise. Apr 24 12:01
ixs jwb: the general case is to go look for another software stack doing the same thing. However, PA is not just "another upstream project" Apr 24 12:01
dwmw2 which is what we've done Apr 24 12:01
mezcalero dwmw2: if you want to see the old g-v-c back in fedora, then MAINTAIN IT Apr 24 12:01
jwb mezcalero, would you add the 'advanced' button that dwmw2 suggested that simply started the old g-v-c? Apr 24 12:01
mezcalero don't try to get other people to do this for you by some bureaucratic process Apr 24 12:01
mclasen jwb: thats not his call Apr 24 12:02
mezcalero jwb: that's not my decision Apr 24 12:02
jwb who's is it? Apr 24 12:02
bpepple My objections to the proposal is due to how late in the release this decision is being made. The volume control feature has been written about (feature page and on various planets ) and discussed for awhile now, and objections should have been made a lot earlier in the process. Apr 24 12:02
mclasen and no, I don't think we would add that button Apr 24 12:02
mezcalero jwb: ask bastien, and ask jon Apr 24 12:02
*nirik would maintain it if it would help, but I don't use gnome, so I don't think I would be the best maintainer. Apr 24 12:02
mezcalero jwb: a possible solution would be to add that button only if /usr/bin/old-g-v-c exists or so Apr 24 12:02
mezcalero jwb: but i am against even that Apr 24 12:02
dwmw2 bpepple: true. That's why I said 'tempted to'. :) Apr 24 12:02
jwb mclasen, can i ask why? Apr 24 12:02
mclasen if you want g-v-c back, maintain it upstream, package it, put it in the menus Apr 24 12:02
mclasen simple, easy, just a little work to do Apr 24 12:02
mclasen instead of writing flames Apr 24 12:03
jwb i'm not writing a flame. i'm asking for a button.. Apr 24 12:03
nirik so all that would help tho is people would see something doesn't work, complain/file bugs/etc and get told to use 'g-v-c' instead of alsamixer? Apr 24 12:03
mezcalero jwb: what's the point of the button, if you already have a menu? Apr 24 12:03
dwmw2 maintaining the tool itself is doable Apr 24 12:03
dwmw2 we need it to be accessible to those people who click on the volume stuff in their panel Apr 24 12:03
nirik mezcalero: it would allow people seeing it not work for their case to easily try and go back to g-v-c. Apr 24 12:03
jwb mezcalero, because people click on the little speaker applet (which is default). they don't go hunting in menus for things that are right there on the desktop Apr 24 12:04
mclasen dwmw2: there is no point to make an unusable tool easily accessible Apr 24 12:04
ixs mezcalero: users are used to click on the volume button in the taskbar. not look in the menu. It's probably just the users expectation. Apr 24 12:04
nirik instead of posting to mailing lists, filing bugs, flaming on irc, forums, etc. Apr 24 12:04
mezcalero i don't think there needs to be easy access to weird exotic features Apr 24 12:04
mezcalero if there is a menu entry for that, that's good enough Apr 24 12:05
dwmw2 we disagree on the exoticness of certain features Apr 24 12:05
dwmw2 that is 'exotic' for PA and quite rightly unsupported, Apr 24 12:05
dwmw2 is a perfectly reasonable use case for Fedora Apr 24 12:05
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dwmw2 s/that/what/ Apr 24 12:05
jwb mezcalero, pardon me asking, but what is your real name? i don't recognize your nick and whois isn't helping me Apr 24 12:06
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abadger1999 jwb: mezcalero == lennart Apr 24 12:06
jwb ah, thank you Apr 24 12:06
mezcalero i mean, come on, this whole disccussion is so pointless. we are having a discussion here in FESCO about where to put a button or not put it at all Apr 24 12:06
dwmw2 I'll maintain g-v-c if I really must, but I want it people like my father to be able to _find_ it, which means being able to run it from the right-click menu of the thing in the panel, or an 'Advanced...' button in the PA volume control app Apr 24 12:06
mezcalero dwmw2: then make it replace the real g-v-c Apr 24 12:07
mezcalero dwmw2: that's an issue of your packaging Apr 24 12:07
dwmw2 that's just silly. Apr 24 12:07
jwb it's also prohibited Apr 24 12:07
jwb unless it uses alternatives Apr 24 12:07
mezcalero jwb: alternatvies seems to be an awesome use for this Apr 24 12:07
jwb possibly Apr 24 12:08
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dwmw2 not really Apr 24 12:08
dwmw2 because you want both installed Apr 24 12:08
jwb arguing over a button isn't what we're doing though Apr 24 12:08
dwmw2 you want to let PA do its thing, but fall back to fixing the things it gets wrong, or can't handle Apr 24 12:08
mclasen no, I disagree with alternatives for this too Apr 24 12:08
mezcalero we are discussing packaging issues Apr 24 12:08
mclasen and I don't really think fesco wants to start mandating where we put buttons Apr 24 12:08
mezcalero packaging issues of a package i don't really care about Apr 24 12:08
dwmw2 right Apr 24 12:08
bpepple mclasen: definitely. Apr 24 12:08
abadger1999 mclasen: +1 Apr 24 12:08
jwb it was a request at a compromise Apr 24 12:09
dwmw2 FESCo is interested in the second half of my above sentence: the 'but fall back to fixing the things it gets wrong'. Apr 24 12:09
jwb damn, people... Apr 24 12:09
dwmw2 At least, I hope so ;) Apr 24 12:09
nirik the problem is that in f11 some unknown % of fedora users use cases will not work. I think the idea here is that we could try and make something for this release so those folks could easily get their use cases working again. Apr 24 12:09
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dwmw2 and the best answer to that seems to be that we make access to the underlying ALSA mixer controls work again, from the GUI. Apr 24 12:09
ixs but I think fesco is taking the wrong perspective here. Fesco#s job is not to mandate the design or the scope of PA but to consider impact of the Fedora Release. Apr 24 12:09
mezcalero dwmw2: it doesn't get things 'wrong' that much. if it did file a bug. some things are out of focus, that's all Apr 24 12:09
f13 honestly, somebody packaging up the full mixer and getting it installed by default too is probably enough Apr 24 12:09
mclasen nirik: there is always an unknown % of things that don't work. I don't see the point in that argument at all Apr 24 12:10
f13 relnotes can mention that a full mixer is available in the menus Apr 24 12:10
drago01 nirik: slip the release by 5 years Apr 24 12:10
f13 it's a bit easier than telling people to use alsamixer Apr 24 12:10
mezcalero i am against installing that by default Apr 24 12:10
mezcalero there is no reason to Apr 24 12:10
mezcalero if you want exotic setups, then install the pkg Apr 24 12:10
mclasen f13: don't look for us to do that Apr 24 12:10
mezcalero no need to clutter the menus with that Apr 24 12:10
dwmw2 f13: That's a start, but it makes a lot more sense to add a button to the lobotomised volume control, which lets you run the advanced one Apr 24 12:10
nirik sure, time marches on and all. The reason we are talking about it is that many people find it to be a concern for the next release. Apr 24 12:10
f13 mclasen: I'm not Apr 24 12:11
mclasen f13: and I don't think the desktop sig will agree to install it by default Apr 24 12:11
mclasen in the desktop spin Apr 24 12:11
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dwmw2 don't FESCo get to approve spins? Apr 24 12:11
f13 *shrug* the help then becomes "yum install foo; run foo" Apr 24 12:11
dwmw2 if we're playing that kind of silly game. Apr 24 12:11
f13 I guess we'll see how often that has to get done to decide what to do for F12 Apr 24 12:11
ixs f13: I don't think that's going to work. Apr 24 12:12
nirik sure, but that gets back to flames until someone gets that suggestion... Apr 24 12:12
mclasen dwmw2: don't approve it then Apr 24 12:12
mclasen this is silly, indeed Apr 24 12:12
wwoods we have... 3 months until F12 Alpha? is that right? Apr 24 12:12
f13 if that Apr 24 12:12
dwmw2 let's package the old volume control, because some people _do_ need it. Apr 24 12:12
f13 f12 is a short cycle. Apr 24 12:12
ixs besides, I think it's a pretty lame excuse for solving a regression to write in the release notes how to rip out a much touted feature and replace the mixer with something else. Apr 24 12:12
dwmw2 Hell, I'll do that if I have to, if people _really_ want me maintaining gui code :) Apr 24 12:12
nirik dwmw2: well, there is xfce4-mixer as well if you just want a mixer. Apr 24 12:12
f13 ixs: it's not ripping out and replacing. Apr 24 12:12
dwmw2 and add a sensible way for people to _find_ it, when the PA volume control isn't good enough. Apr 24 12:13
f13 ixs: it's augmenting, in a graphical way, as opposed to alsamixer Apr 24 12:13
ixs f13: if we're using alternatives that'll be the result. Apr 24 12:13
nirik ixs: what is your alternate proposal? Apr 24 12:13
f13 ixs: nobody is seriously considering alternatives Apr 24 12:13
f13 pulling out alternatives is close to godwin's law 'round here. Apr 24 12:13
dwmw2 :) Apr 24 12:13
mezcalero i think release notes plus google is good enough a way to find that obsolete version of g-v-c Apr 24 12:13
dwmw2 nobody reads release notes. Apr 24 12:14
*nirik nods. Sad but true Apr 24 12:14
mclasen why do we write them then ? Apr 24 12:14
dwmw2 I think an 'advanced' button in what we ship, or another item in the right-click menu in the panel, is a good way to find that version of g-v-c Apr 24 12:14
f13 but release notes provide a useful place to point people at when they ask questions Apr 24 12:14
nirik anyhow, do we want to try and accomplish anything here? or ? Apr 24 12:14
wwoods since this is tied to a F11 Feature (Features/VolumeControl) and certain parts of the scope are incomplete Apr 24 12:14
drago01 didn't ubuntu just release with exactly this issue? are users complaining? Apr 24 12:14
wwoods it's definitely within FESCo's reach to suggest compromises here Apr 24 12:14
ixs nirik: honestly? I think the suggestion starting a graphical alsa mixer for "out-of-scope" cases is sensible. I do not think that putting that mixer in a menu somewhere is the right thing however as users will not expect a second mixer. An advanced button could take care of that problem but would need cooperation from upstream, which might not be likely, or result in fedora having a local patch. Apr 24 12:15
wwoods for strong values of "suggest". Apr 24 12:15
mharris What happens when any particular use case is only 2% of users, but there are 50 use cases that aren't handled and the cumulated "exotic cases" results in 30-50% of users being screwed? Apr 24 12:15
ixs f13: is it? wow. I'm shipping packages using alternatives... whoaps. :D Apr 24 12:15
dwmw2 people interact with the volume control through the thing in the panel. If the thing in the panel suddenly stops working for them, they _don't_ expect to be able to find the real tool hidden away somewhere else in the menus. Apr 24 12:15
dwmw2 that's a _really_ bad suggestion, IMHO Apr 24 12:15
f13 wwoods: what isn't complete? the feature is marked 100% Apr 24 12:15
mclasen mharris: we add more advanced buttons, of course Apr 24 12:15
mezcalero dwmw2: 'google' is a good remedy for folks who don't read release notes Apr 24 12:15
wwoods f13: two things in scope - "PulseAudio to allow supporting features in the front-ends" and "kernel (ALSA) which should trim the number of user visible hardware channels" Apr 24 12:16
mclasen wwoods: the feature never claimed that it would support any and all crazy sound setups that are possible Apr 24 12:16
wwoods no, but there are definitely hints that parts of the original design (exporting certain card features in the frontend/GUI code) isn't complete Apr 24 12:16
wwoods which suggests that perhaps a compromise is in order until they are Apr 24 12:16
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*nirik thinks there is not much willingness to compromise here. Apr 24 12:18
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rdieter (adam) "revive gnome-alsamixer" Apr 24 12:18
abadger1999 drago01: Yes, but it's greasy wheel syndrome.... are the complainers there really representative of the Ubuntu community? Apr 24 12:18
f13 adamw: perhaps you'd like to describe your just sent proposal here? Apr 24 12:18
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wwoods we have a spec and the feature doesn't seem to meet it. if we want to get pedantic about it, FESCo can pull the ripcord on the feature entirely. but that doesn't really help improve the situation. Apr 24 12:18
adamw f13: ok. quickly: let's resurrect gnome-alsamixer and install it by default. g-v-c wants to cover the 90% cases in a simple user-friendly way: great. at present it covers maybe 70%. we really need a graphical app available by default for the other 30%. Apr 24 12:19
dwmw2 adamw: great... that means I don't have to maintain it as was being threatened :) Apr 24 12:19
mclasen apps that cover 10% use cases don't need to be installed by default Apr 24 12:19
dwmw2 this is the same as the old gnome-volume-control? Apr 24 12:19
adamw yes, then we have 'duplication', but it's a relative situation: duplication is a lesser evil than telling thousands of people how to run alsamixer from a console. Apr 24 12:19
mclasen I don't agree Apr 24 12:20
adamw mclasen: sure, and in future, when g-v-c is more mature and really covers 90%, we could stop installing it by default Apr 24 12:20
*mharris places his hands interlocked together and holds them out to wwoods to give him a boost to reach the ripcord Apr 24 12:20
*dgilmore thinks we wont agree here and should move on Apr 24 12:20
adamw mclasen: but for f11, g-v-c is not going to reach that state, lennart has already says so. it doesn't let you do input switching, which means most people who ever want to record anything are boned. Apr 24 12:20
mezcalero adamw: g-v-c won't cover exotic use cases, sorry Apr 24 12:20
jwb dgilmore, the 'how to move on part' is the problem Apr 24 12:20
dwmw2 adamw: that's half the solution. The remaining problem is that users updating from F-10 will jsut see that the thing in the panel that they use has got worse, and won't tihnk to go looking around in the application menus to find the old version of that. Apr 24 12:21
adamw mezcalero: i know, i don't ever expect it to. 'exotic' use cases are fine, that's the 10% i was talking about. the issue here is that g-v-c does not *yet* cover some very common cases that it's intended to cover in future. Apr 24 12:21
dwmw2 so we could _really_ do with a way to run the 'old' mixer from the panel Apr 24 12:21
dwmw2 either in the right-click menu on the applet, or an Advanced...' button in the new g-v-c Apr 24 12:21
mclasen add a launcher to your dads desktop Apr 24 12:21
ixs mharris: wanna stand on my shoulders? Apr 24 12:21
adamw dwmw2: personally i'd agree, but i'm not sure that would get enough agreement. so i'm proposing something that to my mind is very conservative that really shouldn't be that hard to agree on. Apr 24 12:22
wwoods I'm pretty willing to believe that the situation will improve post-release to the point where the temporary compromise old-mixer nonsense can be removed Apr 24 12:22
mharris ixs: +1 Apr 24 12:22
adamw wwoods: my position would be "as soon as g-v-c can do input switching and most prominent 'the slider doesn't really control my volume' bugs are fixed, we can stop installing any alternative by default" Apr 24 12:22
dwmw2 wwoods: I'm not sure, because we're being very forthrightly told that even things like playing CDs through the analogue path, and line-in, are "too weird". Apr 24 12:22
abadger1999 wwoods: The one thing about that is we get a new crowd of people screaming that there's been a regression in the middle of a stable release instead of at the release boundary. Apr 24 12:22
dgilmore jwb: we wont come to the desision today Apr 24 12:22
*mclasen is not going to take ui proposals from this forum, sorry Apr 24 12:22
dwmw2 it's _OK_ for PA to declare those cases uninteresting, but it does mean that we have to retain an alternative in Fedora Apr 24 12:23
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nirik dgilmore: indeed. Apr 24 12:23
abadger1999 dgilmore: The clock is ticking on F11. Apr 24 12:23
abadger1999 :-( Apr 24 12:23
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mharris In the olden days, writing an IRC client used to be the cool thing everyone did. Now it's writing sound subsystems that don't work. Apr 24 12:24
nirik adamw's proposal sounds like a fine compromise to me Apr 24 12:24
dgilmore abadger1999: i know. Apr 24 12:24
drago01 adamw: "the slider doesn't really control my volume" this one is simply a bug that should be fixed not worked around by different mixers Apr 24 12:24
dwmw2 Given the attitude of the people involved, and their failure to care about regressions, I'm more of the opinion now that we should revert the 'VolumeControl' feature. Apr 24 12:24
mezcalero i think everyone agrees that dwmw2 may maintain the old g-v-c if he wants. what's left to decide? whether this will be installed on the desktop spin? as already mentioned this is not going to happen Apr 24 12:24
ixs nirik: agreed. +1 for adamw Apr 24 12:24
mezcalero so what is this discussion about still? Apr 24 12:24
adamw drago01: hence the bit where i said "once it's fixed we can stop shipping any". Apr 24 12:25
mclasen dwmw2: good luck Apr 24 12:25
jwb wait... what is the 'desktop' spin here? Apr 24 12:25
wwoods mclasen: you don't really have to take the UI suggestions, but FESCo doesn't really have to accept the feature, so it kind of behooves you all to work together Apr 24 12:25
jwb the normal Gnome based one? Apr 24 12:25
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*f13 watches things get ugly. Apr 24 12:25
wwoods I'm really pretty happy about the new volume control because I hate trying to figure out if I want to dick with PCM or Master or what Apr 24 12:26
dwmw2 wwoods: for the cases where it _works_, I'm quite happy with it too Apr 24 12:26
dwmw2 but there are cases where it _doesn't_, which is the problem. Apr 24 12:26
jwb f13, i'm not trying to get ugly. i'm just trying to understand what mezcalero just said Apr 24 12:26
mclasen wwoods: I really don't see much constructive happening here, sorry Apr 24 12:26
f13 mclasen: what you mean is that people here don't agree with you. Apr 24 12:26
wwoods but we all know there are a lot of obvious cases where it doesn't work and there's an obvious temporary compromise solution that leaves everyone happy and can be removed in 3-6 months Apr 24 12:26
jwb f13, well, i agree not much constructive is happening Apr 24 12:27
jwb about the only thing constructive is the adamw proposal Apr 24 12:27
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wwoods but if nobody's willing to compromise, there's a simple solution for that too Apr 24 12:27
drago01 adamw: no I disagree here why should a user think that a different mixer would change his volume while the default one doesn't ? Apr 24 12:27
jwb my only question is why people think they can veto it getting installed by default? Apr 24 12:27
f13 it'll be constructive if it gets majority fesco vote Apr 24 12:27
wwoods much as I love the feature, it doesn't meet its listed spec Apr 24 12:27
f13 because some of fesco don't feel that its enough. Apr 24 12:27
drago01 adamw: this is simply a bug (everybody would agree here) so we should fix it instead of adding workarounds Apr 24 12:28
mclasen jwb: the desktop sig has editorial control over the contents of the desktop spin Apr 24 12:28
dwmw2 Proposal: FESCo welcomes adamw's gnome-alsamixer package and wants it in F-11 by default, along with making it _visible_ from the normal panel applet in some way. Apr 24 12:28
drago01 adamw: and changing the volume is not 'ecotic' ;) Apr 24 12:28
f13 drago01: even with the old mixer just adjusting the slider in the panel wouldn't always work, so that's not a new issue. Apr 24 12:28
ixs jwb: I would like to see a bit more willingness for compromise actually. That way the discussion would probably be much more constructive. Apr 24 12:28
drago01 f13: yeah thats why I don't think adding mixer app would solve anything about that Apr 24 12:28
f13 drago01: taking out the existing one wouldn't fix it either Apr 24 12:28
f13 drago01: we're not going to magically fix that with any existing software Apr 24 12:29
mclasen ixs: after what lennart is subjected to on f-d-l, you have to admire him for being willing to discuss this at all... Apr 24 12:29
drago01 f13: which hardware is that? and which slider does control the volume if master and/or pcm doesn't? that can be fixed by a kernel side quirk Apr 24 12:30
bpepple mclasen: agreed. Apr 24 12:30
ixs mclasen: Hey, certainly no discussion that there were one or two people or maybe even three not being helpful on -devel. Apr 24 12:30
f13 drago01: the problem was the "and or" Apr 24 12:30
ixs mclasen: but this is not devel. Apr 24 12:30
f13 drago01: an app had to be launched to get to the and/or, we're still at that today Apr 24 12:30
nirik mclasen: agreed, but I wish you guys were willing to concede there are other cases and allow a compromise... Apr 24 12:30
jwb mclasen, which is what? the standard Gnome spin? Apr 24 12:30
mclasen nirik: I don't see where we ever said that it would cover every conceivable case Apr 24 12:31
drago01 jwb: yes Apr 24 12:31
mclasen I made that point very clear in my very first mail on this subject Apr 24 12:31
f13 we've hit goto 1 again. Apr 24 12:31
nirik mclasen: sure, but why do you resist a app being available for those cases you don't cover? Apr 24 12:31
dgilmore mclasen: you are reading to much into that. the desktop sig has input and it is weighted but you have no control over the spin. Apr 24 12:31
ixs mclasen: however, currently we're having a rather one-sided discussion which I consider a real shame. Apr 24 12:31
*dgilmore is quite unhappy with the desktop sig lately Apr 24 12:31
mclasen dgilmore: I'll have to disagree Apr 24 12:31
f13 dgilmore: eh, I'd say more that the desktop team controls the spin, but FESCo can override. Apr 24 12:32
dwmw2 I really wish we didn't have to get into a pissing contest about this Apr 24 12:32
f13 just like FESCo can override anything else in Fedora. Apr 24 12:32
dgilmore mclasen: thats your way, i expected nothing less from you Apr 24 12:32
f13 please, lets keep the personal attacks out of this Apr 24 12:32
nirik dwmw2: me too. It's really not helping. Apr 24 12:32
f13 not helpful. Apr 24 12:32
dgilmore f13: its nothing personal Apr 24 12:32
mclasen wait, now I am the bad guy ? Apr 24 12:32
adamw mclasen: i don't think anyone's asked for g-v-c to cover every conceivable case. please engage with what I said. right now, there are very substantial cases - input switching being the obvious one - which it does *not* cover and which need to be covered. as i said, this is a *temporary* proposal. i entirely envisage the alternative mixer being dropped for f12 as long as g-v-c has improved to cover the cases it needs to. Apr 24 12:32
f13 here's what I see. Desktop team wants to suggest alsamixer as the fallback. Apr 24 12:33
dgilmore mclasen: im not saying your the bad guy, Apr 24 12:33
f13 FESCo would like to see something easier to use/find than alsamixer Apr 24 12:33
f13 the pain point is arguing about whether that "something easier" is installed by default, and where it can be found. Apr 24 12:34
f13 mclasen: is alsamixer installed in the desktop spin? Apr 24 12:34
mclasen I don't know Apr 24 12:34
ixs hmmm. Apr 24 12:34
wwoods yes. Apr 24 12:34
nirik yes it is. Apr 24 12:34
f13 alright, then why would you be opposed to something easier to use/find ? Apr 24 12:35
ixs adamw: offering gnome-alsamixer wouldn't be a problem. There are ready made specs which do look up to spec for fedora inclusion. Apr 24 12:35
mclasen f13: making it easy to find is not a good idea, really Apr 24 12:35
f13 mclasen: and why is that? Apr 24 12:35
f13 mclasen: users that aren't satisfied by the new mixer should be punished? Apr 24 12:35
mclasen having two equally easily accessibly mixer is just confusing Apr 24 12:35
f13 mclasen: they wouldn't be. Apr 24 12:35
f13 the new one is in the panel Apr 24 12:36
jwb they aren't equally accessible Apr 24 12:36
mclasen if you need something easier, you can always add a launcher Apr 24 12:36
f13 and by all rights, it /isn't/ a mixer Apr 24 12:36
dwmw2 that's one thing that's solved by having an 'advanced...' button in the simplified mixer Apr 24 12:36
f13 it's a volume slider. Apr 24 12:36
wwoods one's in the menubar by default; one is hidden in the menus somewhere Apr 24 12:36
dwmw2 then it's clear, and they're not just available in parallel Apr 24 12:36
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ixs wwoods: the problem is, which to put where? the one which is simply but covers only a limited spec by design? or the other one, which might confuse users as claimed? Apr 24 12:36
dwmw2 it solves that problem, _and_ the problem that the fully-functional mixer is hidden in the menus somewhere, when people _used_ to be able to access it from the panel Apr 24 12:37
f13 mclasen: do we not agree that there are situations and users that will require a fallback mixer? Apr 24 12:37
f13 users of the desktop spin even? Apr 24 12:37
dwmw2 we disagree on whether we _care_ about those users :) Apr 24 12:37
mclasen f13: like there are situations where NM doesn't work for your customized network setup Apr 24 12:37
mclasen do we demand to put s-c-network on the panel ? Apr 24 12:37
f13 s-c-network was never in the panel. Apr 24 12:37
jwb nobody is saying panel here Apr 24 12:37
dgilmore mclasen: no one is saying something else should be on the panel Apr 24 12:37
*dwmw2 is saying panel Apr 24 12:37
f13 and right now, I'm not asking about putting the old mixer in the panel. Apr 24 12:37
wwoods ixs: what? obvious the intended default mixer - the new one - is the default thing that gets started up Apr 24 12:37
f13 the only one saying that is dwmw2 Apr 24 12:37
jwb dwmw2, well stop then Apr 24 12:37
fcami s-c-network is not something that people touch everyday Apr 24 12:37
f13 and I'm ignoring him at the moment. Apr 24 12:38
dwmw2 :) Apr 24 12:38
f13 I'm trying out this thing called compromise Apr 24 12:38
fcami good luck. Apr 24 12:38
f13 we have what you want on one side, what dwmw2 wants on the other side, and neither are agreeable to both parties. Apr 24 12:38
ixs wwoods: really? even if it will mean serious regressions? I've seen proposals in the backlog suggesting that the new one goes in the menu until it is ready for a larger part of our install base. Apr 24 12:38
f13 ergo I'm trying to find some middle ground Apr 24 12:38
ixs wwoods: doesn't sound bad to me. Apr 24 12:38
f13 where both parties are upset. it's the only way to be fair Apr 24 12:38
*dwmw2 wants the new feature reverted. Making the old mixer available from the new one _was_ the compromise :) Apr 24 12:38
ixs f13: no mixer at all? Apr 24 12:39
ixs :D Apr 24 12:39
*jwb sighs Apr 24 12:39
wwoods ixs: no. the new code covers most of the territory - it's good enough, so long as there's a fallback for the uncommon cases Apr 24 12:39
jwb irc is a horrible communication mechanism sometimes Apr 24 12:39
*mclasen considers making g-v-c available in the menus a compromise Apr 24 12:39
f13 mclasen: so again, if you're already willing to point people at alsamixer, ^^ Apr 24 12:39
f13 ok, that's exactly what I was going to ask Apr 24 12:39
f13 it'll make it easier to provide help to people who find that the default mixer doesn't work. Apr 24 12:40
jwb PROPOSAL: Do the adamw proposal of packaging the old g-v-c, making it accessible via the menu. Install it by default Apr 24 12:40
adamw er, there's some signal loss happening here Apr 24 12:40
f13 we can also put intothe mixer or ask people that if you have to use this, please file a bug Apr 24 12:40
adamw my proposal wasn't the old g-v-c, it was gnome-alsamixer Apr 24 12:40
jwb what Apr 24 12:40
jwb , er Apr 24 12:40
jwb whatever Apr 24 12:40
mezcalero ok, so one one side there is the desktop group who specialize in the desktop and hopefully have a bit of clue what they do. And the say we don't want this feature visiable by deault. And on the other side there are a handful of people, who have niches uses of the mixer but insist that their niche usage is prominently available in the default desktop. Apr 24 12:40
wwoods having the old volume control available in the menus - not in the taskbar by default, not shipping the old applet - sounds like a pretty OK compromise to me Apr 24 12:40
jwb the adamw proposal, in the menu, installed by default Apr 24 12:40
adamw mezcalero: "I want to record something" is not a niche use. Apr 24 12:40
mezcalero adamw: you can record very easily with pa Apr 24 12:41
adamw mezcalero: if you want to record from mic in and your card happens to default to line in, at present, you have no option but figuring out how to do "alsamixer -c0 -Vcapture" Apr 24 12:41
f13 mezcalero: I want to use voip isn't niche either. Apr 24 12:41
jwb ARGH Apr 24 12:41
mezcalero all these cases are cases where mic is used Apr 24 12:41
mezcalero mic should be default Apr 24 12:41
adamw mezcalero: but you can't select the correct input channel with g-v-c at present. this is acknowledged by lennart and planned for f12 timeframe. it is not at issue. Apr 24 12:41
f13 mezcalero: which mic, and how do you change it? Apr 24 12:41
jwb stop arguing the same damn points over and over Apr 24 12:41
mezcalero line-in should be the option that can be switched too if people want to Apr 24 12:41
mezcalero if mic was not the default for you Apr 24 12:41
mezcalero then file a abug against alsa Apr 24 12:42
adamw mezcalero: then what if you want to record from line-in and it defaults to mic? or you have two mic inputs and you want to use the other one? these are not niche cases. please stop arguing the point. Apr 24 12:42
f13 we're digressing again. Apr 24 12:42
dwmw2 Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default Apr 24 12:42
mezcalero i think 90% of all cases were recording is involved it is from a mic, not line-in Apr 24 12:42
adamw i think you are pulling numbers out of your ass. Apr 24 12:42
f13 mezcalero: one thing you didn't consider about your handfull of people is that many of them spend a significant amount of time trying to help new and lost users, and don't find the fallback of alsamixer acceptable. Apr 24 12:42
mezcalero and the 10% remaing i would *not* call a niche usage Apr 24 12:42
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mezcalero but as i said this will be fixed for f12 Apr 24 12:43
mharris dwmw2: +1 :) Apr 24 12:43
dwmw2 please can all non-fesco people be silent, and all fesco people limit themselves to '+1' or '-1' or reasonable variations on the above, just for a mo,ment? Apr 24 12:43
f13 mezcalero: we don't really expect the desktop people to be spending a lot of time helping users, history and all that. Apr 24 12:43
ixs dwmw2: +1 Apr 24 12:43
ixs dwmw2: strike that Apr 24 12:43
*dwmw2 facepalms Apr 24 12:43
mclasen f13: thanks, nice one Apr 24 12:43
f13 mclasen: am I wrong? Apr 24 12:43
mclasen f13: I'll keep that in mind Apr 24 12:43
nirik dwmw2: +1 (I assume you mean default in the desktop spin, not all spins?) Apr 24 12:44
f13 mclasen: do you really spend a lot of time in #fedora or fedora-list helping users? Apr 24 12:44
dwmw2 I mean the default spin, so yes. Apr 24 12:44
sharkcz dwmw2: +1 Apr 24 12:44
mezcalero f13: i certainly spent too much time on fedora-devel@ being insulted Apr 24 12:44
nirik I think this is a good compromise between the desktop folks wanting to have the new volume control by default and allowing users with use cases that are not supported a easy to find fallback. Apr 24 12:44
mclasen f13: no, I don't. I don't expect you either... Apr 24 12:45
bpepple mezcalero: agreed. you've taken a lot more abuse than you should in those threads. Apr 24 12:45
f13 mclasen: I didn't claim that I did. Apr 24 12:45
nirik the most frequent thing in #fedora is telling people to use alsamixer -c0 to adjust volume so they get any sound. Apr 24 12:45
f13 mclasen: however people like adamw and nirik and others in FESCo do. Apr 24 12:45
*nirik does spend far too much time in #fedora. Apr 24 12:45
wwoods Since it's come to this, I think we can say that the QA Team recommendation is that the VolumeControl feature does *not* match its original specification and should therefore be deferred to F12 *unless* there's some other way provided cover the missing bits of functionality - e.g. providing the old mixer UI somewhere in the menus. Apr 24 12:45
adamw (mostly i'm on the forums, not fedora-list or irc. but yes, lots of user assistance.) Apr 24 12:45
nirik (but note that we don't have a bunch of f11 people in there yet) Apr 24 12:45
wwoods adamw: does that sound right? Apr 24 12:45
mezcalero wwoods: uh???? Apr 24 12:46
adamw wwoods: well, it's put a bit harsher than i'd really mean. Apr 24 12:46
dwmw2 that sounds like we have +2 for a proposal of 'revert the VolumeControl feature' Apr 24 12:46
wwoods yeah, well Apr 24 12:46
*nirik did not vote to revert. Apr 24 12:46
*bpepple didn't either. Apr 24 12:47
*sharkcz too Apr 24 12:47
*f13 thinks that there are too many proposals out. Apr 24 12:47
adamw wwoods is speaking on behalf of the QA team, not fesco. Apr 24 12:47
wwoods I'm not a FESCo member, so don't count this Apr 24 12:47
dwmw2 oh, right. Apr 24 12:47
wwoods it's just a recommendation. Apr 24 12:47
dwmw2 I think we're going round in circles. Apr 24 12:47
dwmw2 Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default Apr 24 12:47
*nirik suspects again that we won't get anything voted on/done here. ;) Apr 24 12:48
f13 <dwmw2> Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default Apr 24 12:48
dwmw2 (in the default/desktop spin, that is) Apr 24 12:48
jwb +1 Apr 24 12:48
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 12:48
*nirik already voted +1. I think its a ok compromise for f11, and hopefully can get yanked for f12. Apr 24 12:48
wwoods mezcalero: AFAICT bits of the scope are incomplete - as discussed earlier. (simplifying the stuff ALSA provides from the kernel, exposing some hardware features in the frontends) Apr 24 12:48
sharkcz +1 Apr 24 12:48
jwb dgilmore, bpepple? Apr 24 12:48
ixs I think bpepple voted already for that a few mins ago, but it'd be nice to reaffirm. Apr 24 12:49
bpepple -1. I think we sorta ambushed the desktop guys with this, since this feature has been advertised/discussed for awhile and these issues should have been brought up *way* earlier. Apr 24 12:50
dgilmore +1 Apr 24 12:50
mezcalero wwoods: some hw features? Apr 24 12:50
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mezcalero wwoods: where we explicit which ones? Apr 24 12:50
nirik bpepple: the feature will still be there. Apr 24 12:50
halfline uhh when did fesco gain control over what's default in the desktop spin? Apr 24 12:50
nirik bpepple: this is not the revert. Apr 24 12:50
mclasen bepple: I couldn't agre more. It is a repeat of the empathy fiasco in f10 Apr 24 12:50
wwoods mezcalero: no, just: "PulseAudio to allow supporting features in the front-ends" - I understand this to mean support for hardware features like input switching, but I might misunderstand it Apr 24 12:50
nirik halfline: when the fedora board delegated technical decisions to fesco over the Fedora project. Apr 24 12:51
mezcalero wwoods: i didn't write that line, but I'd certainly not understand how you understand it Apr 24 12:51
bpepple nirik: I know, but it sorta goes against what the feature proposal is. Regardless, if I'm in the minority in that thinking, that's alright. Apr 24 12:51
mezcalero wwoods: so, i think your proposal is bogus Apr 24 12:51
dgilmore halfline: its always been the case Apr 24 12:51
wwoods mezcalero: what would you take it to mean? It's not marked DONE so I assume there's something incomplete there? Apr 24 12:51
mezcalero wwoods: it's like interpeting the quran Apr 24 12:51
dgilmore halfline: we have nearly always delegated it Apr 24 12:51
halfline nirik: no there's some break down here. the desktop spin defaults are controled by the desktop team Apr 24 12:51
mezcalero wwoods: the feature is marked 100% Apr 24 12:52
halfline and feature pages are a marketing thing Apr 24 12:52
mezcalero wwoods: so if you want me to add to 100% there i am happy to do that fo your Apr 24 12:52
nirik halfline: I would disagree. If you think that is not the case, please feel free to bring it up to the board? Apr 24 12:52
halfline a rejected feature doesn't mean "doesn't go in", it means "isn't marketed" Apr 24 12:52
jwb that is true Apr 24 12:52
dgilmore halfline: not always Apr 24 12:52
dwmw2 nirik: he's right. The defaults are controlled by the desktop team for their spin. If, on the other hand, they want to call it 'Fedora'.... :) Apr 24 12:52
jwb however defaults and inclusions can still be changed by FESCo Apr 24 12:52
f13 halfline: there is no breakdown, FESCo ultimately has control over everything. That they don't use the control is because they prefer to delegate, but in cases where a compromise cannot be met... Apr 24 12:52
dwmw2 I still wish we could avoid that particular pissing contest though Apr 24 12:53
jwb yeah, it seems pretty stupid to be talking about this right now Apr 24 12:53
nirik dwmw2: we already have not... forcing a change to the desktop spin. Apr 24 12:53
dwmw2 f13: well, ultimately it would go to the board I suppose. Apr 24 12:53
jwb that would be sad Apr 24 12:53
f13 halfline: a rejected feature uses the contingency plan. However FESCo isn't asking to reject the feature, they're asking to modify the feature Apr 24 12:53
jwb the last time the board made a technical decision was codeina Apr 24 12:53
dwmw2 heh Apr 24 12:54
*nirik nods. This is sad all around. I don't see why the compromise is so horrible. The desktop folks seem unwilling to give any at all here. Apr 24 12:54
f13 that ended... swell Apr 24 12:54
wwoods everything else the board has deferred to FESCo Apr 24 12:54
dwmw2 how many FESCo members are here? Apr 24 12:54
dwmw2 is +5 -1 a 'yes' or not? Apr 24 12:54
dwmw2 who didn't vote? Apr 24 12:54
mclasen nirik: I already gave you installing adams mixer Apr 24 12:54
jwb we are missing j-rod an jds2001 Apr 24 12:54
abadger1999 -notting, j-rod, jds2001 Apr 24 12:54
nirik mclasen: but not by default? or you will allow it on the spin? Apr 24 12:54
bpepple dwmw2: It passed with a majority. Apr 24 12:54
jwb and notting Apr 24 12:54
adamw mclasen: er, wait - installing it by default? that's all the proposal is... Apr 24 12:54
halfline f13: well my point is, (and i just came into the middle of this so i'm missing a lot of context), it doesn't seem like fesco is *asking* anything Apr 24 12:54
f13 halfline: you did miss a lot Apr 24 12:55
dwmw2 ok. For the record then: Apr 24 12:55
jwb dwmw2, yes the proposal passed Apr 24 12:55
dwmw2 Proposal #2: FESCo doesn't believe that it's sufficient for gnome-alsamixer to be hidden in the menus, since it's the functionality that people have _lost_ from what was in the panel. FESCo would like it to be reachable that way somehow -- either through the right-click menu on the panel applet, through a button in the simple g-v-c, or something else. Apr 24 12:55
adamw mclasen: we're not proposing anything running persistently or being on the panel or anything, just an app in the menus. Apr 24 12:55
dwmw2 +1 Apr 24 12:55
warren NOTE: This isn't an applet. It will be hidden away in menus. Apr 24 12:55
jwb -1 to Proposal #2 Apr 24 12:55
jwb i'm not here to dictate what upstream projects do Apr 24 12:55
wwoods and the features pages *aren't* just for marketing - the scope is supposed to represent the actual *required* functionality of the feature, so when stuff like this and Empathy aren't quite finished at Preview time we can have *some* documented criteria to determine whether it's done *enough* Apr 24 12:55
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dwmw2 this is about what _Fedora_ does. Apr 24 12:55
f13 halfline: there were a number of proposals, ranging from the absurd to the compromise we've come up with Apr 24 12:55
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jwb the button is upstream. it's been answered with an emphatic no Apr 24 12:56
dwmw2 we can have our _own_ panel app which can run either the pa or the alsa volume thing Apr 24 12:56
f13 halfline: and really, the desktop team could continue to refuse and escalate to the board, but I'd rather not see that happen. Apr 24 12:56
warren My opinion matters not much, but I would think an "Advanced" button in g-v-c would be pretty good until the advanced app is no longer needed. Apr 24 12:56
mclasen adamw: I'm not happy at all about the idea to install it by default, but if that is what it takes to close this discussion Apr 24 12:56
*warren expects to be chewed out by his team. Apr 24 12:56
mclasen we certainly ship more sucky software in the menus.... Apr 24 12:56
adamw mclasen: ok, thanks, then. Apr 24 12:56
nirik -1 to proposal 2 here. Apr 24 12:56
adamw mclasen: fwiw i'm happy for proposal #2 not to pass, i don't expect it will. Apr 24 12:57
mclasen warren: don't mix up things now, we're just closing this down Apr 24 12:57
nirik mclasen: I sure hope it will close things. Apr 24 12:57
sharkcz -1 also here Apr 24 12:57
bpepple -1 also. Apr 24 12:57
dwmw2 ok, that's not passed then (as I expected) Apr 24 12:57
dwmw2 is there anything further to discuss on this topic? Apr 24 12:57
adamw just a quick note: I'm not actually an approved packager for fedora Apr 24 12:57
*nirik notes that changes should be done ASAP. We are super close to release. Apr 24 12:57
adamw so either someone else should adopt the package or i need to get sponsored etc Apr 24 12:58
nirik adamw: file a review request and I can review it for you. Apr 24 12:58
adamw so, whoever wants to take that up with me, please contact me elsewhere and we'll sort it out Apr 24 12:58
*dwmw2 will sponsor Apr 24 12:58
dwmw2 find me later, but not tonight -- I should have been in the pub an hour ago Apr 24 12:58
ixs adamw: Apr 24 12:58
ixs I think the necessary tool is already in cvs. Apr 24 12:59
*bpepple notes we're at the 2 hour point. Apr 24 12:59
nirik ok, anything further? Apr 24 12:59
wwoods mclasen: seriously - and there's a definite roadmap for improving the volume situation to the point where this won't be necessary in 3-6 months. but.. who was the last person to touch, say, s-c-bootloader? Apr 24 12:59
*nirik will close the meeting in 30 Apr 24 12:59
nirik Thanks for coming everyone! Apr 24 13:00
---nirik has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See for meeting schedule Apr 24 13:00

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