SIGs/Development/Meetings/2007-08-28

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<h1>#fedora-meeting-2007-08-28-14h43.log</h1>
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<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- overholt has changed the topic to: Fedora Development SIG Meeting #2</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> walters (n=walters@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jjohnstn (i=jjohnstn@nat/redhat-ca/x-d87ca38b9af7bc5a) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">hi</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">hey hey</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so, I put up this agenda last week:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Proposed agenda for the second meeting (2007-08-28):</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">     * Progress of spins</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">     * Development groups we'd like to target</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">     * Ideas for how to target various groups</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> *that* is what I put up last week as an agenda</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I haven't had any time to work on the spin :(</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so the progress there is 0</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> unfortunately</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but the past two days we've (jjohnstn, caillon, scsibear, overholt) spent some time talking about the target audience and stuff</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> anybody have anything else to add to the agenda?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">going once....</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">:)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">twice...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">well, i think a lot flows from the target audience</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">okay, that's cool 'cause I think there's lots to talk about with target audience, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> walters: I agree</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so we decided we agree with walters' assessment of the target audiences falling into 3 bins</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> mbarnes (i=mbarnes@nat/redhat/x-c2338f4c93d8fd9a) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">for F8 and F9 we don't think we can realistically target any group other than "system/os development"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> specifically, Fedora and GNOME development</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> your traditional C, C++, and Python</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jjohnstn's got some sweet autotools integration</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> and scsibear is now maintaining pydev and will be looking at what we can do to smooth out any wrinkles there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">overholt: is there a distinction between what we want to target with eclipse and what we want to target for the developer edition spin?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">as much as targetting the "lightweight web development" crowd (for lack of a better name) would be cool, we don't think we can do it for F8 and probably not for F9</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> scsibear: excellent question</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> perhaps I was mixing the two in my mind</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I guess I just feel like we already do a half-decent to decent job at the distro level of targetting most groups ... just by having the packages available</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> things like sandboxed httpd, etc. would help, right?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> are there other things we can do at a distro level?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> chroots?  selinux stuff?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">definitely selinux</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">include mock</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">okay</td></tr>
<tr><td class="nickchange" colspan="3">--- gregdek_gone is now known as gregdek</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">wrt selinux, I more meant things like dwalsh's targetted policies</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">overholt: so the stuff you just mentioned is specific to our plans with eclipse. but what about people who want other IDEs in the developer spin? what's the plan there?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: yeah we should probably talk to him about it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">scsibear: good question</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> caillon: agrred</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> scsibear: do you thoughts there?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> have .. do you have thoughts there?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">scsibear: people who want other IDEs are welcomed to help out.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but we need to focus on something and its not interesting to solve the same problem(s) sets twice</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">what about other IDEs being in the spin?  do we just put things in people ask for?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> how do we avoid become Fedora Everything?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> a 2 GB (or some other size) limit would help</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but I've so far had requests for two IDEs other than Eclipse</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I don't really care if they're there</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but we obviously want "best of breed"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ... not that Eclipse is</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we can say "no" if we want</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">i think we should include development tools that people want to use and not force people to use eclipse.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">in every respect, but we're committed to working towards it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">i think the main goal is to make things work well out of the box</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">agrred</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">with the development spin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">caillon: but then it becomes 'fedora eclipse edition'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">so we allow whatever people want and just work on integrating "our" stuff?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">also, developers tend to like to use the tools they know</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">scsibear: again the main point is that we're trying to make it work well out of the box.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">that's what i think. our eclipse work just becomes an other tool in the developer edition.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">if we can't do that for e.g. anjuta, then people can always install it after-the-fact</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> ssp (i=ssp@nat/redhat/x-3b08721869c2dd0e) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">so do we tell people that unless their tool of choice meets a certain set of workflows we don't let it into the DE?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (DE is my new cool acronym for "Fedora:  Developer Edition" ;)  Hate it yet?)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so who's the target audience then? if we're asking people to change the tools they use, then we're probably going to loose some developers.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">i think that seems sanest.  and again it is not about removing things from fedora.  it is about making a specific workflow be really awesome.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> we're not asking people to change anything</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">scsibear: we don't have a spin = no users.  we aren't going to lose what we don't have.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">we're providing something for a certain targetted audience</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we are providing something awesome that we hope will be useful for a certain part of the community.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">people who love emacs or whatever will continue to love it and use it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">overholt: so who's the audience?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">scsibear: new developers?  developers who want to use a sweet IDE?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> scsibear: people coming from VS?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">and we already know that the developer type community is a smaller part of the overall community so its not like we expect to be the most popular spin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">while I think the IDE is a big part of the story here I don't think that's all there is to it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">(VS = Visual Studio)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> walters: please go on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">for example if you're targeting fedora developers, get that "apt-get source" equivalent yum plugin in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">walters: yeah, its about workflow.  we can integrate that bit into eclipse</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">er, apt-get build-deps</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">and make sure the plugin is installed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">but yes we should get the yum plugin in too</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> because that will help</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">can we think of other "distro level" things?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> enabling debuginfo?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> is there some sort of koji automation or something we can do?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I guess not since that's per-user, right?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">what kind of automation?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> we can make sure it's installed, but the user would still have to run fedora-packager-setup.sh</td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- Pingoomax has quit (Remote closed the connection)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">fedora's already got a fair bit of stuff targeted at developers for itself, i kind of feel this is just making a better comps group including dev tools, eclipse, yum plugins, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I guess I was thinking something around running the script or something</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I wasn't thinking too much about changing comps</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> since we're doing a live spin</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> walters: but I know what you mean</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">overholt: you use comps to drive what shows up on the Live image.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">f13: we could just stick the relevant bits in /etc/skel perhaps?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">well f13 was trying to encourage us to reflect target groups changes in comps and i think that makes sense</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so yes, you /do/ need to change comps.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> caillon: fedora-packager-setup.sh creates all the relevant bits.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">can't we just say we want these groups from comps and these extra packages?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">but yeah, you also want the live spin so you can have the targeted download</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">what necessitates changing comps there?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">well</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">okay, okay, we can change comps</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> we can change the defaults, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">overholt: because without very much effort you've not only done a Live image, but you've also made a valuable group that people doing traditional installs can select.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">it gives you a nicer way to turn say a barebones fedora-desktop install into a fedora dev system</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> right now you do have to hunt and peck for little packages</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">f13: okay</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I added mylyn to the default eclipse group in comps the other day</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> we can do more stuff like taht</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> let's get back to target audience</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> do we need to spell it out or is a vague assertion okay?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* overholt fears it's the former</td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- ssp has quit ("Farewell, oh ship of state")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I was just going to say I agree the system developer target makes sense for f8 because there isn't much time and we're pretty close to it anyways</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">awesome</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'm ok with vague assertion for the first go, see who you collect and then better target those that showed up.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">\m/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">can we talk briefly about the "lightweight web developer" audience?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> things like php and turbo gears</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">given that today is the freeze, if you wanted your spin to show up next to say the FEdora KDE live spin, you'd need to get a kickstart config testable to Jeremy today.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">is abadger1999 around?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* ivazquez is</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">overholt: Here.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">damn, today ... shizzat.  I can give jeremy what I have already but it's nowhere near complete</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ajax abadger1999</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ajax abadger1999</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">but a quick story...so I wasn't being theoretical with the guy-with-idea-about-music-site audience; actually one of my friends is doing it.  But he decided to just do it on windows, and I was pretty surprised at first but the Ruby setup on Windows isn't bad at all, and he found it an acceptable dev environment</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ivazquez: abadger1999: do you just use emacs/vi or something?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I just use vim.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">ivazquez</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">vim-enhanced and bluefish here.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ivazquez ixs izaac itchy</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I've used bluefish in the past for css stuff</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I kind of had this feeling though if we aren't able to pull in those kinds of people - the ones who want to create new websites, well it isn't good for long term prospects</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: ivazquez: with a chroot'd httpd or something?  or just on a firewalled box?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Just firewalled for me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">ivazquez</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">Firewalled.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: yeah ... so can we just make things easier to install?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> walters: what attracted him?  is there an ide or was he just super-comfortable with Windows?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">yeah, that is a big part of it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ivazquez: abadger1999: thanks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">ivazquez</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">Sure thing.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ivazquez: abadger1999: debugging?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">no problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">ivazquez</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">print</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> So, no debugging.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">it's not that fedora is hard to install (except for partitioning), it's just a lot of clicking</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">:)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I use python so...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: so we want a ruby group in comps?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> walters: yum groupinstall ruby-development?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999: so no debugging?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">ivazquez: heh, sounds like you and I use pretty much the same setup :-)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> No special tools, no.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I've started using ipython, though.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: ivazquez: so if we provided (at some point) an ide with a nice debugger and an integrated httpd would you switch?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">ivazquez</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">An integrated httpd is overkill. And "nice" is difficult to define when talking about Python debugging.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Is it lightweight?  I've tried eclipse + pydev in the past and it was too cluttered and too memory heavy for me to consider.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">okay, forget I asked :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">i'm not sure.  I feel like a lot of it is going to be the better packaging stuff (is rails even packaged now?), but the old desktop linux pains like suspend/wireless bite this audience hard, so maybe that's more important</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">so we're back to "system/os developer"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">overholt: not an integrated httpd, just an instance of httpd that starts as a user process for testing purposes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">scsibear: sure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">walters: No.  Ruby gems support in the packaging guidelines is relatively recent so the ruby stack needs to be built up to get to rails.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">give me a bit of time to think about it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">okay</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">abadger1999: kk</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: can you send me the location (or the actual file) for the desktop live .ks?  I can re-do my changes on top and send to jeremy asap.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: it's in livecd-tools git</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: okay</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: git clone git://git.fedoraproject.org/git/hosted/livecd</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* overholt installs git</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: thanks</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> does anyone want to talk more about the target audience?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> scsibear is going to try to come up with some workflows for Eclipse-related stuff .. .maybe more will come out of that?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">but i think eclipse is just one tool.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">sure, sure</td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- RemiFedora has quit ("A bientôt...")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">one last thought on the web developer bits; I was reading in the news that it's very common for companies to evaluate things on windows, but deploy on Linux</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">interesting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">maybe the web developer target is actually just a fedora server image they can run on windows somehow</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">that'd be neat</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">and then we can use that as a hook to sell them on the desktop</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">interesting idea</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> other than target audience yammering I've got little else to talk about.  anyone else?  I should get this spin .ks updated and submitted ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">i think we actually want the server image anyways because it's a nice way to separate the desktop from the server, even if they're both fedora</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">like the "small developer shop" server and workstation idea scsibear had</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">kind of...i'm more thinking about making it easy for you to deploy the server code you're writing on something like S3 or another Xen hosting provider</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> er, s/S3/EC2/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ah, yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">walters: that's kinda interesting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">so we should be making xen images as well as live images?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> have we thought about that?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">ah...a xen image of the DE?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">what would be the use case?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">what you were describing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">well, i was talking about the server bits, not the desktop</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">or maybe I'm not understanding how ec3 works</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> yeah</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> that's what I meant</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">i think we already support xen images for system/os developers fairly well if like you want to test some package you're working on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">walters: how does EC2 work?  do you provide your own xen image or do they have a list?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">you provide your own image (AMI) yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">skvidal</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">walters: special kernel restrictions</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> you can't just use any image</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">skvidal: right</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> jrb (i=jrb@nat/redhat/x-d129dbef1e9cd04b) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">so what I was asking was whether or not it made sense to provide an image of the server part of the developer spin that one could use with EC2</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">i think the first part is to figure out what the server part is and how it works =)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">yes, of course</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> sorry, I was just curious about that</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> anyway, I think we're pretty much done for today, right?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I need to work on the image kickstart file</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so adjourned?  going once ...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> going twice ...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jrb missed it all!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I'll post the log, jrb :)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> gone.  thanks everyone, ttyl.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">jrb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">danke</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">=-=-=-=-=-=-= meeting end =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=</td></tr>
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