From Fedora Project Wiki
| quaid | <meeting> | 12:07 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes | 12:07 | |
| quaid | ... and welcome | 12:07 |
| -!- jmtaylor [n=jason@fedora/jmtaylor] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:08 | |
| -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:08 | |
| quaid | roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ... | 12:09 |
| quaid | <- Karsten is here | 12:09 |
| jmbuser | JohnBabich | 12:09 |
| Sparks | Eric Christensen | 12:09 |
| -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@adsl-065-012-235-102.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:09 | |
| * quaid is getting agenda up on his screen | 12:10 | |
| -!- mcepl [n=matej@adsl3050.in.ipex.cz] has left #fedora-meeting ["Bye bye!"] | 12:10 | |
| jmbuser | JohnBabich the psychic | 12:10 |
| quaid | heh | 12:10 |
| * ianweller lurks | 12:10 | |
| quaid | ok, I saw couf join | 12:10 |
| quaid | and jsmith is half-here | 12:10 |
| quaid | stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something | 12:10 |
| * jsmith wishes he were eating dinner | 12:11 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections! | 12:11 | |
| quaid | cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like | 12:11 |
| quaid | paul posted a bit on list | 12:11 |
| quaid | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html | 12:11 |
| * quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread | 12:12 | |
| quaid | ok | 12:13 |
| Sparks | There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further | 12:13 |
| quaid | some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks | 12:13 |
| quaid | what I propose is this: | 12:14 |
| quaid | i. we discuss until :35 at the latest | 12:14 |
| quaid | ii. see if we have a consensus | 12:14 |
| quaid | iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue | 12:14 |
| Sparks | +1 | 12:15 |
| quaid | I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not | 12:15 |
| jmbuser | +1 | 12:15 |
| jmbuser | continue | 12:16 |
| * quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :) | 12:17 | |
| quaid | simple idea: | 12:17 |
| quaid | how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"? | 12:17 |
| quaid | eol | 12:17 |
| jmbuser | We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people | 12:18 |
| jsmith | quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader. They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them | 12:18 |
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| jsmith | The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it | 12:19 |
| -!- spoleeba [n=one@fedora/Jef] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:19 | |
| quaid | what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match | 12:19 |
| jmbuser | This is not that unusual | 12:19 |
| quaid | do we fix the process then? dissolve it? | 12:20 |
| -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf@fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["The chief excitement in a woman's life is spotting women who are fatter than she is."] | 12:20 | |
| Sparks | In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at | 12:20 |
| jmbuser | Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things | 12:21 |
| quaid | spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc. | 12:21 |
| jmbuser | The solution is to have the process reflect reality | 12:21 |
| quaid | spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :) | 12:21 |
| Sparks | If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process | 12:21 |
| quaid | reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc. | 12:21 |
| quaid | Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to" | 12:22 |
| Sparks | Exactly | 12:22 |
| Sparks | But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project | 12:22 |
| * jsmith agrees | 12:23 | |
| quaid | oh good | 12:23 |
| quaid | that's how I've been feeling :) | 12:23 |
| jsmith | In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee | 12:23 |
| quaid | the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with | 12:23 |
| jsmith | (as I've been practically worthless lately) | 12:23 |
| quaid | or | 12:23 |
| quaid | make it "opt in" | 12:24 |
| quaid | you want in, you are in | 12:24 |
| quaid | you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while | 12:24 |
| quaid | and let people "breathe" that way as per their life | 12:24 |
| Sparks | That works | 12:24 |
| quaid | I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work | 12:24 |
| Sparks | We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"... and we already do, really | 12:25 |
| quaid | yep | 12:25 |
| quaid | as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are: | 12:25 |
| quaid | * have that as a general subproj election | 12:25 |
| quaid | * have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else | 12:25 |
| quaid | sorry, that was 1 and 2 | 12:25 |
| jmbuser | "Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion | 12:26 |
| quaid | 3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough | 12:26 |
| quaid | 4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants | 12:26 |
| * jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry | 12:26 | |
| quaid | jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered | 12:26 |
| jsmith | Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"? | 12:27 |
| quaid | I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed. | 12:27 |
| quaid | in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject | 12:27 |
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| quaid | and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj | 12:27 |
| jsmith | I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad? | 12:27 |
| quaid | jsmith: not bad, just ... | 12:27 |
| quaid | jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff | 12:28 |
| jsmith | quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow | 12:28 |
| quaid | jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc. | 12:28 |
| -!- mccann [n=jmccann@nat/redhat-us/x-fdef7a5fbd075095] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:28 | |
| quaid | jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :) | 12:28 |
| Sparks | +1 to quaid's list... | 12:28 |
| quaid | turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined | 12:28 |
| Sparks | I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort | 12:28 |
| quaid | how about this as a scheme: | 12:29 |
| jsmith | FSSCo senate? | 12:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering | 12:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant | 12:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint | 12:29 |
| quaid | * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering | 12:30 |
| jsmith | +1 | 12:30 |
| jsmith | WORKSFORME | 12:30 |
| Sparks | +1 | 12:30 |
| * quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :) | 12:30 | |
| Sparks | It is... only less strict... more flexible | 12:31 |
| jsmith | quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-) | 12:31 |
| jmbuser | In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different | 12:31 |
| * quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :) | 12:31 | |
| jsmith | be right back | 12:31 |
| jmbuser | than what you propose | 12:32 |
| quaid | jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better | 12:32 |
| -!- RodrigoPadula [i=c8c6c292@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15a8c9d839c8dfb7] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:32 | |
| RodrigoPadula | hello guys! | 12:33 |
| jmbuser | In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections? | 12:33 |
| spoleeba | let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs? | 12:33 |
| quaid | I don't think so | 12:33 |
| quaid | that said, | 12:33 |
| quaid | most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion | 12:33 |
| quaid | but we are not well represented from certain groups | 12:34 |
| spoleeba | is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum | 12:34 |
| spoleeba | if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort | 12:35 |
| quaid | +1 | 12:37 |
| -!- J5_ [n=quintice@66.187.234.199] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:37 | |
| quaid | when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :) | 12:37 |
| quaid | right now it's like a girls club electing "officers" | 12:38 |
| quaid | which was important | 12:38 |
| quaid | back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things | 12:38 |
| jmbuser | What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds? | 12:38 |
| quaid | now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ... | 12:38 |
| quaid | jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that | 12:39 |
| jmbuser | Encouraging FOSS solutions instead? | 12:39 |
| quaid | well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit. | 12:39 |
| quaid | I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't | 12:40 |
| quaid | if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :) | 12:40 |
| quaid | ok, we went over the mark | 12:41 |
| quaid | but I think we got some consensus, yes? | 12:41 |
| jmbuser | please sum up | 12:41 |
| quaid | ok, let's see ... | 12:42 |
| * jsmith stumbles back | 12:42 | |
| Sparks | +1 | 12:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering | 12:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant | 12:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint | 12:42 |
| quaid | 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering | 12:42 |
| quaid | add to that: | 12:42 |
| quaid | FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit. | 12:42 |
| quaid | and what I propose: | 12:42 |
| quaid | all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader" | 12:43 |
| quaid | and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy | 12:43 |
| quaid | (that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME) | 12:43 |
| quaid | eosummary | 12:44 |
| quaid | SME == subject matter expert | 12:44 |
| quaid | did I miss anything? | 12:44 |
| -!- kms [n=kms@mailgate.passback.co.uk] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:44 | |
| * jmbuser is starting to "get it" | 12:44 | |
| jsmith | quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life | 12:45 |
| jmbuser | All hail, quaid! | 12:45 |
| jsmith | quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head | 12:45 |
| quaid | hey, I have an ego, too | 12:45 |
| Sparks | quaid quaid quaid quaid | 12:45 |
| jsmith | quaid++ | 12:45 |
| jmbuser | MIB II reference :-) | 12:45 |
| quaid | anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :) | 12:45 |
| -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD1A55.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:45 | |
| jsmith | quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count? | 12:46 |
| Sparks | So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :) | 12:47 |
| quaid | word | 12:48 |
| quaid | anything more? | 12:48 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1 | 12:48 | |
| quaid | anyone here know anything? | 12:48 |
| * jsmith doesn't know *anything* | 12:49 | |
| quaid | mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au | 12:49 |
| quaid | stickster_afk is dining still | 12:49 |
| * quaid is joking, he doesn't know | 12:49 | |
| quaid | ok, moving on | 12:49 |
| jsmith | ~hail gluttony! | 12:49 |
| -!- tiagoaoa [i=c8c6c292@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d005906909200f78] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:49 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... | 12:49 | |
| quaid | let's make this the final topic for now | 12:49 |
| quaid | oh, sorry | 12:49 |
| quaid | Sparks had some stuff too | 12:49 |
| Sparks | Not really... It can wait. | 12:50 |
| quaid | Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening? | 12:50 |
| Sparks | Yes | 12:50 |
| couf | pong, sorry | 12:50 |
| quaid | if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any | 12:50 |
| Sparks | Okay... So wiki gardening... | 12:50 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ... | 12:50 | |
| Sparks | I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages... | 12:50 |
| quaid | (it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping) | 12:51 |
| -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.25.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 12:51 | |
| Sparks | and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages... | 12:51 |
| quaid | +1 sweet | 12:51 |
| Sparks | but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject... | 12:51 |
| Sparks | just go to | 12:51 |
| Sparks | This brings up my first request... | 12:52 |
| tiagoaoa | let me see if I can talk here | 12:52 |
| Sparks | categories. | 12:52 |
| tiagoaoa | yep.. not moderated, see? | 12:52 |
| Sparks | tiagoaoa Go ahead | 12:52 |
| tiagoaoa | nevermind | 12:52 |
| quaid | Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right? | 12:52 |
| Sparks | quaid: We can have anything we want. | 12:53 |
| Sparks | Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category... | 12:53 |
| quaid | tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick. | 12:53 |
| quaid | Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats? | 12:53 |
| Sparks | so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is. | 12:54 |
| -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi@66.187.234.199] has quit ["Leaving"] | 12:54 | |
| Sparks | There seems to be two... DocsProject and Documentation | 12:54 |
| quaid | they are different | 12:54 |
| quaid | one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content | 12:54 |
| Sparks | If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it | 12:54 |
| quaid | true that | 12:54 |
| Sparks | quaid: exactly | 12:54 |
| quaid | do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat? | 12:55 |
| Sparks | I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts. | 12:55 |
| quaid | what about a namespace? | 12:55 |
| Sparks | quaid: I don't know. That was one of my questions | 12:55 |
| quaid | Docs: or something | 12:55 |
| quaid | ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories? | 12:55 |
| -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@adsl-065-012-235-102.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] | 12:55 | |
| quaid | ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat? | 12:56 |
| Sparks | quaid: yes... Check the security guide. | 12:56 |
| ianweller | it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in Category:Documentation? | 12:56 |
| quaid | 12:56 | |
| quaid | ok, I see | 12:56 |
| jsmith | Gotta run again... | 12:56 |
| -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away | 12:56 | |
| ianweller | if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft | 12:56 |
| quaid | ianweller: yes | 12:56 |
| Sparks | ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that. | 12:57 |
| quaid | that seems clear enough | 12:57 |
| quaid | Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw | 12:57 |
| -!- J5 [n=quintice@nat/redhat-us/x-0f613b84aea53d37] has quit [Connection timed out] | 12:57 | |
| Sparks | Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there | 12:57 |
| quaid | I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage | 12:57 |
| Sparks | the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things | 12:57 |
| quaid | ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ? | 12:57 |
| quaid | Sparks: can you write up a policy? DocsProject/Categories or something | 12:58 |
| Sparks | Sure | 12:58 |
| quaid | policy/procedure/guideline whatever | 12:58 |
| Sparks | guide | 12:58 |
| Sparks | that's not a problem | 12:58 |
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| Sparks | Anyone have anything else? If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me | 12:58 |
| quaid | I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better | 12:59 |
| quaid | so we can move on to orphaned, sure | 12:59 |
| Sparks | Special:Lonelypages | 12:59 |
| * quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace | 12:59 | |
| -!- rdieter_away is now known as rdieter | 12:59 | |
| Sparks | So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki | 12:59 |
| quaid | oooooh, nice Special: page | 12:59 |
| ianweller | quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces | 12:59 |
| Sparks | Lots of fun stuff in here. | 12:59 |
| quaid | wow, there are tons there | 13:00 |
| quaid | for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them | 13:00 |
| Sparks | Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient | 13:00 |
| quaid | that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list | 13:01 |
| Sparks | yeah | 13:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: well ... | 13:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful | 13:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit | 13:01 |
| quaid | I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind | 13:01 |
| Sparks | I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love | 13:01 |
| quaid | to use it as a basis for declaring orphans | 13:01 |
| quaid | that is true | 13:01 |
| Sparks | I agree | 13:01 |
| quaid | ok, we are out of time | 13:01 |
| Sparks | Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought. | 13:02 |
| Sparks | eof | 13:02 |
| quaid | let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion. | 13:02 |
| quaid | ok, then, cool | 13:02 |
| quaid | thanks everyone | 13:02 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 13:02 |
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