Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080528

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quaid <meeting> 12:07
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes 12:07
quaid ... and welcome 12:07
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-!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:08
quaid roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ... 12:09
quaid <- Karsten is here 12:09
jmbuser JohnBabich 12:09
Sparks Eric Christensen 12:09
-!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@adsl-065-012-235-102.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:09
* quaid is getting agenda up on his screen 12:10
-!- mcepl [n=matej@adsl3050.in.ipex.cz] has left #fedora-meeting ["Bye bye!"] 12:10
jmbuser JohnBabich the psychic 12:10
quaid heh 12:10
* ianweller lurks 12:10
quaid ok, I saw couf join 12:10
quaid and jsmith is half-here 12:10
quaid stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something 12:10
* jsmith wishes he were eating dinner 12:11
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections! 12:11
quaid cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like 12:11
quaid paul posted a bit on list 12:11
quaid http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html 12:11
* quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread 12:12
quaid ok 12:13
Sparks There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further 12:13
quaid some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks 12:13
quaid what I propose is this: 12:14
quaid i. we discuss until :35 at the latest 12:14
quaid ii. see if we have a consensus 12:14
quaid iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue 12:14
Sparks +1 12:15
quaid I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not 12:15
jmbuser +1 12:15
jmbuser continue 12:16
* quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :) 12:17
quaid simple idea: 12:17
quaid how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"? 12:17
quaid eol 12:17
jmbuser We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people 12:18
jsmith quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader. They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them 12:18
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jsmith The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it 12:19
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quaid what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match 12:19
jmbuser This is not that unusual 12:19
quaid do we fix the process then? dissolve it? 12:20
-!- wolfy [n=lonewolf@fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["The chief excitement in a woman's life is spotting women who are fatter than she is."] 12:20
Sparks In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at 12:20
jmbuser Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things 12:21
quaid spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc. 12:21
jmbuser The solution is to have the process reflect reality 12:21
quaid spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :) 12:21
Sparks If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process 12:21
quaid reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc. 12:21
quaid Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to" 12:22
Sparks Exactly 12:22
Sparks But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project 12:22
* jsmith agrees 12:23
quaid oh good 12:23
quaid that's how I've been feeling :) 12:23
jsmith In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee 12:23
quaid the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with 12:23
jsmith (as I've been practically worthless lately) 12:23
quaid or 12:23
quaid make it "opt in" 12:24
quaid you want in, you are in 12:24
quaid you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while 12:24
quaid and let people "breathe" that way as per their life 12:24
Sparks That works 12:24
quaid I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work 12:24
Sparks We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"... and we already do, really 12:25
quaid yep 12:25
quaid as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are: 12:25
quaid * have that as a general subproj election 12:25
quaid * have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else 12:25
quaid sorry, that was 1 and 2 12:25
jmbuser "Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion 12:26
quaid 3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough 12:26
quaid 4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants 12:26
* jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry 12:26
quaid jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered 12:26
jsmith Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"? 12:27
quaid I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed. 12:27
quaid in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject 12:27
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quaid and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj 12:27
jsmith I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad? 12:27
quaid jsmith: not bad, just ... 12:27
quaid jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff 12:28
jsmith quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow 12:28
quaid jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc. 12:28
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quaid jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :) 12:28
Sparks +1 to quaid's list... 12:28
quaid turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined 12:28
Sparks I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort 12:28
quaid how about this as a scheme: 12:29
jsmith FSSCo senate? 12:29
quaid * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering 12:29
quaid * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant 12:29
quaid * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint 12:29
quaid * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering 12:30
jsmith +1 12:30
jsmith WORKSFORME 12:30
Sparks +1 12:30
* quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :) 12:30
Sparks It is... only less strict... more flexible 12:31
jsmith quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-) 12:31
jmbuser In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different 12:31
* quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :) 12:31
jsmith be right back 12:31
jmbuser than what you propose 12:32
quaid jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better 12:32
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RodrigoPadula hello guys! 12:33
jmbuser In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections? 12:33
spoleeba let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs? 12:33
quaid I don't think so 12:33
quaid that said, 12:33
quaid most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion 12:33
quaid but we are not well represented from certain groups 12:34
spoleeba is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum 12:34
spoleeba if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort 12:35
quaid +1 12:37
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quaid when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :) 12:37
quaid right now it's like a girls club electing "officers" 12:38
quaid which was important 12:38
quaid back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things 12:38
jmbuser What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds? 12:38
quaid now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ... 12:38
quaid jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that 12:39
jmbuser Encouraging FOSS solutions instead? 12:39
quaid well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit. 12:39
quaid I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't 12:40
quaid if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :) 12:40
quaid ok, we went over the mark 12:41
quaid but I think we got some consensus, yes? 12:41
jmbuser please sum up 12:41
quaid ok, let's see ... 12:42
* jsmith stumbles back 12:42
Sparks +1 12:42
quaid 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering 12:42
quaid 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant 12:42
quaid 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint 12:42
quaid 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering 12:42
quaid add to that: 12:42
quaid FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit. 12:42
quaid and what I propose: 12:42
quaid all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader" 12:43
quaid and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy 12:43
quaid (that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME) 12:43
quaid eosummary 12:44
quaid SME == subject matter expert 12:44
quaid did I miss anything? 12:44
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* jmbuser is starting to "get it" 12:44
jsmith quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life 12:45
jmbuser All hail, quaid! 12:45
jsmith quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head 12:45
quaid hey, I have an ego, too 12:45
Sparks quaid quaid quaid quaid 12:45
jsmith quaid++ 12:45
jmbuser MIB II reference :-) 12:45
quaid anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :) 12:45
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jsmith quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count? 12:46
Sparks So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :) 12:47
quaid word 12:48
quaid anything more? 12:48
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1 12:48
quaid anyone here know anything? 12:48
* jsmith doesn't know *anything* 12:49
quaid mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au 12:49
quaid stickster_afk is dining still 12:49
* quaid is joking, he doesn't know 12:49
quaid ok, moving on 12:49
jsmith ~hail gluttony! 12:49
-!- tiagoaoa [i=c8c6c292@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d005906909200f78] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:49
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... 12:49
quaid let's make this the final topic for now 12:49
quaid oh, sorry 12:49
quaid Sparks had some stuff too 12:49
Sparks Not really... It can wait. 12:50
quaid Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening? 12:50
Sparks Yes 12:50
couf pong, sorry 12:50
quaid if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any 12:50
Sparks Okay... So wiki gardening... 12:50
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ... 12:50
Sparks I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages... 12:50
quaid (it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping) 12:51
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Sparks and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages... 12:51
quaid +1 sweet 12:51
Sparks but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject... 12:51
Sparks just go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:DocsProject. 12:51
Sparks This brings up my first request... 12:52
tiagoaoa let me see if I can talk here 12:52
Sparks categories. 12:52
tiagoaoa yep.. not moderated, see? 12:52
Sparks tiagoaoa Go ahead 12:52
tiagoaoa nevermind 12:52
quaid Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right? 12:52
Sparks quaid: We can have anything we want. 12:53
Sparks Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category... 12:53
quaid tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick. 12:53
quaid Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats? 12:53
Sparks so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is. 12:54
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Sparks There seems to be two... DocsProject and Documentation 12:54
quaid they are different 12:54
quaid one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content 12:54
Sparks If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it 12:54
quaid true that 12:54
Sparks quaid: exactly 12:54
quaid do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat? 12:55
Sparks I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts. 12:55
quaid what about a namespace? 12:55
Sparks quaid: I don't know. That was one of my questions 12:55
quaid Docs: or something 12:55
quaid ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories? 12:55
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quaid ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat? 12:56
Sparks quaid: yes... Check the security guide. 12:56
ianweller it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in Category:Documentation? 12:56
quaid https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation 12:56
quaid ok, I see 12:56
jsmith Gotta run again... 12:56
-!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away 12:56
ianweller if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft 12:56
quaid ianweller: yes 12:56
Sparks ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that. 12:57
quaid that seems clear enough 12:57
quaid Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw 12:57
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Sparks Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there 12:57
quaid I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage 12:57
Sparks the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things 12:57
quaid ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ? 12:57
quaid Sparks: can you write up a policy? DocsProject/Categories or something 12:58
Sparks Sure 12:58
quaid policy/procedure/guideline whatever 12:58
Sparks guide 12:58
Sparks that's not a problem 12:58
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Sparks Anyone have anything else? If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me 12:58
quaid I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better 12:59
quaid so we can move on to orphaned, sure 12:59
Sparks https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages 12:59
* quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace 12:59
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Sparks So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki 12:59
quaid oooooh, nice Special: page 12:59
ianweller quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces 12:59
Sparks Lots of fun stuff in here. 12:59
quaid wow, there are tons there 13:00
quaid for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them 13:00
Sparks Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient 13:00
quaid that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list 13:01
Sparks yeah 13:01
quaid Sparks: well ... 13:01
quaid Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful 13:01
quaid Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit 13:01
quaid I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind 13:01
Sparks I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love 13:01
quaid to use it as a basis for declaring orphans 13:01
quaid that is true 13:01
Sparks I agree 13:01
quaid ok, we are out of time 13:01
Sparks Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought. 13:02
Sparks eof 13:02
quaid let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion. 13:02
quaid ok, then, cool 13:02
quaid thanks everyone 13:02
quaid </meeting> 13:02

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