From Fedora Project Wiki
| Sparks | #startmeeting Docs Project Release Notes Meeting | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| Sparks | #topic Roll Call | 15:01 |
| * Sparks | 15:01 | |
| * jjmcd . | 15:01 | |
| jjmcd | I thought zack was gonna be here, don't know who else | 15:03 |
| * Sparks wonders if rudi fell asleep | 15:03 | |
| jjmcd | It is the middle of the night there, | 15:04 |
| jjmcd | Maybe we'll just make a decision and move on | 15:05 |
| Sparks | WORKSFORME | 15:05 |
| * Sparks was also thinking that we had to use -1 room because the regular meeting room was occupied. | 15:05 | |
| Sparks | Oh well... | 15:05 |
| Sparks | #topic Old Business | 15:05 |
| Sparks | jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project | 15:06 |
| Sparks | I think this was for "homepage"? | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | identified browsers, haven't contqacted developers | 15:06 |
| Sparks | Which browsers were affected? Was it just Lynx? | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers | 15:07 |
| jjmcd | Yes, just lynx | 15:07 |
| jjmcd | Pretty inconsistent behavior from browser to browser, though | 15:07 |
| Sparks | Cool. That should be easy. | 15:07 |
| Sparks | Ya... What is the proposed fix? | 15:07 |
| jjmcd | Probably an internal message like the other browsers would make sense | 15:08 |
| Sparks | Ok | 15:08 |
| Sparks | So we are depreciating homepage | 15:08 |
| jjmcd | I can't see where it makes sense to keep it unless lynx wants to include it in their rpm | 15:09 |
| jjmcd | But we should probably send a note to devel-list first | 15:09 |
| Sparks | Ya | 15:09 |
| jjmcd | So many things have embedded browsers who knows | 15:09 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage | 15:10 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage | 15:10 |
| Sparks | anything else? | 15:10 |
| jjmcd | I think that takes care of homepage, now, what else wants to be in the rpm | 15:10 |
| Sparks | jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs | 15:11 |
| Sparks | ^^^ The other item from last week | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | oh yeah, forgot that one | 15:11 |
| Sparks | next week? | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | I was more concerned about the whole text, html, xml think | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | thing | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | Should we make all these consistent? | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | Should we drop the html which nobody can find anyway? | 15:12 |
| Sparks | prolly | 15:12 |
| Sparks | we should simplify everything | 15:12 |
| Sparks | don't ship stuff that we don't need in formats no one uses | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | Personally, I would like to see everything in yelp, nice consistent appearance, easy to find | 15:13 |
| Sparks | Does that work in KDE and other desktop environments? | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | there is a scrollkeeper tab in kde help, but it doesn't seem to do anything | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | but then I am having trouble testing kde | 15:13 |
| * Sparks should probably install KDE on his box | 15:13 | |
| jjmcd | can't boot a stick, and my vm install seems weird | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | I have kde as another wm, but that isn't the same as having a pure kde box | 15:14 |
| Sparks | Ya | 15:14 |
| zoglesby | Sorry I am late | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | hi zach | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | lessee -- User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers | 15:15 |
| jjmcd | I didn't contact the lynx guys yet | 15:15 |
| jjmcd | zoglesby, do you us kde? | 15:15 |
| zoglesby | no | 15:16 |
| zoglesby | xmonad and sometimes gnome | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | how does yelp work for you? | 15:16 |
| Sparks | zoglesby: You can test xmonad for us, then | 15:16 |
| zoglesby | test what? yelp? | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | Trying to decide whether we can get away with release notes in xml only | 15:17 |
| jjmcd | We do have a bug, tho, that makes no sense to me. Changelog doesn't show in yelp | 15:17 |
| Sparks | doesn't Publican put the changelog inside the document? | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | yes | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | that why it makes no sense | 15:19 |
| Sparks | just point to it and move on | 15:19 |
| Sparks | IMO | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | yeah, that one isn't high on my list | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | so we have release notes, about fedora, readme, readme burning isos and readme live image all in yelp | 15:20 |
| jjmcd | Whether separate RPMs tbd | 15:20 |
| Sparks | Well... | 15:20 |
| Sparks | let's address that now... | 15:20 |
| Sparks | #topic What to include in the RN RPM | 15:21 |
| Sparks | So there is... | 15:21 |
| Sparks | About Fedora, readme, readme burning isos, and readme live image | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | OK, I had readme accessibility as a separate topic in my mind, but we should address that, too | 15:21 |
| Sparks | I think the last two shouldn't be distributed | 15:21 |
| Sparks | I think we address those two topics in various guides and on the wiki | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | because you already know if you got there | 15:22 |
| Sparks | ya | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | I can buy that | 15:22 |
| Sparks | I say we remove those completely | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | No complaints from this quarter | 15:22 |
| Sparks | zoglesby: ? | 15:23 |
| zoglesby | I agree | 15:23 |
| Sparks | Okay. What is the readme? | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | ok a little less clutter | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | what about accessibility? | 15:23 |
| zoglesby | no point in telling a user how to burn a cd if its in the iso | 15:23 |
| zoglesby | they cant see it until after they burn it | 15:23 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: What is in the accessibility document? | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | dunno | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | it went missing around 9 or 10 | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | wait, I have an f8 box | 15:25 |
| Sparks | I think that should probably be a guide. | 15:25 |
| * Sparks assumes it talks about using Fedora with screen readers and such | 15:25 | |
| zoglesby | that would be my guess | 15:25 |
| jjmcd | Oh yeah, it talks about legal requirements and such | 15:26 |
| jjmcd | lists a boatload of solutions | 15:26 |
| Sparks | Can you send that to me? | 15:26 |
| jjmcd | should be in git | 15:26 |
| jjmcd | looking | 15:27 |
| * Sparks doesn't see it | 15:27 | |
| jjmcd | I don't either ... K, I'll send it. Take some dancing tho, its on my firewall which is mostly devoid of software | 15:28 |
| Sparks | http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/release-notes/devel/README-Accessibility?root=docs&view=c | 15:29 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Is that it? | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | I think so | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | Lets recap | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | yelp contains RNs, about-fedora, readme and readme-accessibility | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | # of RPMs tbd | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | We will somehow check that KDE can use | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | That looks familiar | 15:31 |
| zoglesby | I will check xmonad and evilwm | 15:31 |
| Sparks | #idea We individualize all the packages and not ship them together. | 15:31 |
| jjmcd | Perhaps we have an RN-gnome and RN-kde? | 15:31 |
| Sparks | I think that's just more work | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | I wonder whether that section 508 stuff has been expanded since 2000 | 15:33 |
| * Sparks summons Kevin_Kofler to ask about KDE stuff | 15:33 | |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I used to do some of the accessibility stuff for East Carolina University | 15:34 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, yeah, probably right. If we can make yelp/scrollkeeper work in kde we should be happy with that | 15:34 |
| Sparks | I want to Publicanize that document and make it a guide | 15:34 |
| jjmcd | Will you make a guide rpm for yelp? | 15:34 |
| Sparks | Well... I can make it a package and make it available in the repo. | 15:36 |
| * Sparks isn't sure how things get installed by default | 15:36 | |
| Sparks | But I think it might be helpful to have that information available BEFORE installing | 15:36 |
| jjmcd | Well, if I installed selinux-guide it would be nice to see it in yelp with the rest of the docs | 15:36 |
| Sparks | it doesn't? | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | No, the guides are html | 15:37 |
| * Sparks sees his guides in System->Documentation | 15:38 | |
| Sparks | right above Help and About Fedora and... | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | Look in help | 15:38 |
| Sparks | That's an odd place for those... I mean... maybe not odd but I sure wouldn't go looking there | 15:39 |
| * Sparks isn't the "help" kinda guy | 15:39 | |
| jjmcd | Well, "Documentation" doesn't show up until you install a guide | 15:39 |
| Sparks | Yes | 15:40 |
| Sparks | I think it makes it stand out more. | 15:40 |
| Sparks | Because you'll know that something has changed when you install the package | 15:41 |
| Sparks | otherwise you might not know where to go and look | 15:41 |
| jjmcd | Maybe it makes more sense to put About-Fedora, Readme, Readme-Accessibility and Release-Notes in "Documentation" and leave yelp for the gnome stuff | 15:41 |
| Sparks | Maybe | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | Again, though, what does that look like in kde? | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | That kde menu is just plain weird | 15:42 |
| Sparks | yeah. | 15:42 |
| Sparks | Apparently no one in #fedora-kde want to come join us | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | we need rudi | 15:42 |
| Sparks | I'll install KDE later today and will start playing around | 15:42 |
| zoglesby | rudi rudi rudi | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | Maybe they're all in AUS | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | I would if today wasn't so bloody full | 15:43 |
| Sparks | Maybe | 15:43 |
| zoglesby | the menu issue with kde 4 will be an issue with gnome 3 (shell) anyway | 15:43 |
| zoglesby | at least from what I have seen about it | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | I tried it on a stick this morning, no joy. Then in a VM, only a few minutes to play tho. I have a free partition on my big box, I just hate to reboot it to play | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | Aaarghh | 15:44 |
| Sparks | Okay | 15:44 |
| Sparks | So Accessibility will be taken care of... | 15:45 |
| Sparks | what's left? | 15:45 |
| Sparks | About-Fedora and Readme | 15:45 |
| Sparks | Where is the readme and do we really need that? | 15:46 |
| jjmcd | Isn't that kinda small for a guide - acc I mean | 15:46 |
| jjmcd | readme has a bunch of misc stuff, i think its pretty useful | 15:46 |
| jjmcd | although currently most people will never find it | 15:46 |
| Sparks | Maybe, but it is important and I think it should be available in as many formats and to as many people as possible | 15:46 |
| jjmcd | now that it is publicanized and on the menu it is probably more useful | 15:46 |
| Sparks | Well... I still think packaging everything separately is better | 15:47 |
| Sparks | I don't really care if you want it or not... if you think it is good then I say keep it! | 15:47 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, I think we should. | 15:47 |
| jjmcd | I notice the readmes weren't localized in F8 | 15:48 |
| jjmcd | interesting | 15:48 |
| jjmcd | Oh, sorry, only accessibility wasn't localized | 15:49 |
| jjmcd | hey | 15:49 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So I was summoned? | 15:49 |
| jjmcd | there's our kde expert | 15:49 |
| jjmcd | We were trying to decide about formats for RN's, etc. | 15:49 |
| Sparks | Kevin_Kofler: Oh do we have questions for you | 15:49 |
| Sparks | RNs == Release Notes | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | Right now we have an uneven mix of formats, some html, some text, some xml | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | want to clean that up | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | Our default is to put everything in yelp but we don't know what that does to kde | 15:50 |
| Kevin_Kofler | That's horrible. | 15:51 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE can't open Yelp files. | 15:51 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And Yelp isn't on the KDE spin at all. | 15:51 |
| Kevin_Kofler | As it requires the xulrunner stack. | 15:51 |
| jjmcd | doesn't scrollkeeper read those files? | 15:51 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I don't know. But it's not part of KDE either, I don't think we have this on the KDE spin at this time either. | 15:52 |
| jjmcd | I found scrollkeeper in help on the kde live image, but it didn't seem to do anything | 15:52 |
| Sparks | Kevin_Kofler: Can you install fedora-security-guide-en-US and tell us how it shows up on your KDE system? | 15:53 |
| jjmcd | So, by default, publican puts files under a "Documentation" menu, does that work? | 15:53 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Hmmm... http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/browsers.shtml | 15:53 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Looks like if you use Scrollkeeper format as opposed to Yelp's native format, you should get the doc to show up in both Yelp and KHelpCenter. | 15:53 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Publican == HTML, right? | 15:53 |
| jjmcd | If that's what you build | 15:53 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: make srpm-en-US | 15:54 |
| jjmcd | yelp is just xml | 15:54 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Hmmm, I'm still running F10, the XZ-payload RPMs won't install here. :-( | 15:54 |
| Kevin_Kofler | What I do know is that KDE's help browser, KHelpCenter, won't open GNOME programs' Yelp documentations. | 15:56 |
| Kevin_Kofler | It doesn't understand the format. | 15:56 |
| jjmcd | hmmm, my kde help doesn't look remotely like that | 15:57 |
| zoglesby | maybe we need to talk to the teams and get that fixed | 15:57 |
| zoglesby | a format that works on both | 15:57 |
| jjmcd | Well, there are a pile of auxiliary files, gnome might not provide them | 15:57 |
| Kevin_Kofler | My recommendation is to go with plain HTML for the documentation, it works everywhere. | 15:59 |
| Sparks | I think that is the output of Publican in srpm mode | 16:00 |
| jjmcd | Well, not "plain" html, but rudi is fixing that | 16:00 |
| * Sparks will test that later today | 16:00 | |
| jjmcd | Sparks, I think we need to test multiple langs ... I'm not sure Publican actually handles that | 16:01 |
| Sparks | ? | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | How does KDEhelp deal with languages? Is there some OMF equivalent? | 16:01 |
| * Sparks notes it is high noon and time for the board meeting | 16:02 | |
| jjmcd | Sparks - if you log on in Dutch, do you get the Dutch guide? I see no evidence in the spec to enable that | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | shoot you're right | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | looks like more research | 16:03 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Well, if you install the Dutch version of the package... | 16:03 |
| jjmcd | What if you have multiple langs installed? | 16:03 |
| Sparks | So in Anaconda when you say "I speak Dutch" it should know how to grab the proper language | 16:03 |
| jjmcd | On the same system, you get the release notes in the language you logged on with, no matter what you installed with | 16:04 |
| Sparks | Well, after you have everything setup you can select which document you open according to the language. They would all show up | 16:04 |
| jjmcd | anaconda doesn't grab packages based on languafe | 16:04 |
| Sparks | I don't know | 16:05 |
| jjmcd | The packages have all the languages in the rpm | 16:05 |
| Sparks | no | 16:05 |
| Sparks | errr | 16:05 |
| jjmcd | Well, Publican's dont! | 16:05 |
| Sparks | maybe | 16:05 |
| Sparks | You CAN but the SG is being packaged separately | 16:06 |
| jjmcd | But for all the apps, the strings are in a string file | 16:06 |
| jjmcd | kinda like our po's | 16:06 |
| Sparks | These aren't apps | 16:06 |
| Sparks | These are documents | 16:06 |
| jjmcd | yeah, but anaconda don't know that | 16:06 |
| Sparks | Can we tell it? | 16:07 |
| jjmcd | I'm not enough of a spec file guru to tell | 16:07 |
| Sparks | nor am I | 16:07 |
| jjmcd | I would hate to have to wade through a menu of 42 langs for each doc | 16:08 |
| Sparks | You shouldn't have to | 16:08 |
| jjmcd | With yelp it is simple - everything is in the lang you logged on with | 16:08 |
| jjmcd | just like the apps | 16:08 |
| Sparks | Well, I think we might have to build a better egg... | 16:09 |
| Sparks | hmm... | 16:09 |
| Sparks | Maybe documentation groups by language? | 16:09 |
| Sparks | The language you select could automagically tag the proper documentation language? | 16:10 |
| jjmcd | OK, lets do some research and go to the board meeting. Perhaps you can make an F10 RPM for Kevin | 16:10 |
| jjmcd | That's how yelp works | 16:10 |
| jjmcd | ANd if your language isn't there you get C | 16:10 |
| Sparks | F10 should be there | 16:10 |
| Sparks | Okay... will do research | 16:11 |
| Sparks | anything else? | 16:11 |
| Sparks | No? | 16:11 |
| jjmcd | no | 16:11 |
| Sparks | Thanks Kevin_Kofler for joining us | 16:11 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE KHelpCenter will use the system's language for its native docs. | 16:11 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But of course if you have just plain HTML, there's no obvious way to get that effect. :-( | 16:12 |
| * jjmcd needs to study kdehelpcenter | 16:12 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | The desktops work hard on making their formats work well, but unfortunately, interoperability leaves much to be desired. | 16:12 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: You know, RH might have already figured this out for us. | 16:12 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, they should have | 16:12 |
| Sparks | #action Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican docs | 16:13 |
| Sparks | Okay... Closing down the shop... | 16:13 |
| Sparks | Thanks everyone for coming! | 16:14 |
| Sparks | #endmeeting | 16:14 |