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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2008-08-11

Schedule Review

Fedora 10 Beta

  • f13 to create the various action tickets for the Beta release.
  • this will be a blocking freeze so we need to make every effort to have as short of a freeze as possible
  • 2008-08-19 Beta/Feature freeze

Spins

IRC Transcript

f13 ping: poelcat notting jeremy jwb spot rdieter warren wwoods lmacken 10:03
jwb here 10:03
jeremy hi 10:03
* spot is here 10:04
* poelcat here 10:04
poelcat f13: i have one agenda item--quick schedule sanity review 10:05
poelcat i recently added some more detail and want to make stuff is land on the right days 10:05
poelcat i found a few that weren't and fixed them 10:05
f13 this would be the full view on your people page? 10:06
poelcat current version: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html 10:06
zodbot <http://tinyurl.com/6qyfg6> (at poelstra.fedorapeople.org) 10:06
* f13 looks 10:07
* warren here but on the phone 10:07
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Updated schedule http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html 10:07
* wwoods here 10:08
f13 poelcat: what all did you change? 10:09
poelcat poelcat: added snapshots 10:09
f13 everything seems OK, although I'm a bit dubious about snapshot1 coming just 2 days after the Beta release 10:09
jeremy agreed 10:10
poelcat f13: that might be a mistake... I can drop that one 10:10
f13 yeah, I'd prefer we drop that one 10:10
poelcat and final devel freeze is 30-sept which I had wrong on the wiki version 10:10
jeremy poelcat: it's not a mistake if you lookat how it falls out. it's just something that might not make much sense (distractions, etc) 10:10
poelcat f13: will do 10:10
poelcat jeremy: well there were three for F9.. and i found a way to fit in four for f10 :) 10:11
f13 thanks 10:11
f13 anybody unhappy with the snapshot additions (minus removing snapshot 1)? 10:13
f13 seems like no, we approve those changes. 10:14
poelcat http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html 10:14
zodbot <http://tinyurl.com/6qyfg6> (at poelstra.fedorapeople.org) 10:14
poelcat updated 10:14
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F10 10:14
f13 .rel 24 10:14
zodbot f13: #24 (spins for Fedora 9) - Fedora Release Engineering - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/rel-eng/ticket/24 10:15
f13 er 10:15
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F9 10:15
jlaska f13: snapshot#1 might be right after beta release, but it is more than 2 wks after the beta freeze. 10:15
f13 so the spins have been up for a couple weeks. 10:15
f13 jlaska: while that's true, trying to get a snapshot staged, and actually into people's hands two days after beta releases is going to be tough. 10:15
f13 jlaska: also, it'll likely take more than a week to stabalize after all the hidden updates flood rawhide post-freeze 10:16
f13 anywho, back to topic. 10:16
f13 I haven't seen any reports good/bad on the spins. I suggest we ping the spin owners and ask for a go/nogo on upgrading the "beta" to "final" for those spins. 10:16
f13 jwb: would you be able to take this back on? 10:16
* jwb nods 10:17
jlaska f13: that will drop the total number of snaps to 3 ... should we instead keep 4 and push out a week? 10:17
mether f13: the only that I have significantly tested along with others is Xfce. It should be ready to go 10:17
nirik it's worked fine for me here in my testing as well (The Xfce) 10:18
jwb these are the F9 spins right? 10:18
jeremy f13: sounds good to me 10:18
mether yes 10:18
jwb k 10:18
f13 jlaska: I can create a snapshot that friday for "internal" testing, I just don't want to muddy the public waters by pushing it out there. 10:18
jwb we need to talk about the F10 spins soon 10:18
poelcat jwb: yes... i'm confused on what to do w/ the feature pages... they are stuck in my queue 10:19
f13 what spins have been proposed? 10:19
jwb i've not seen any come into rel-eng yet 10:19
f13 and are they ready for us to review/vote? (essentially would they be ready for FESCo if they were other features) 10:20
f13 wait. 10:20
f13 lets move that topic later, after we get through the tickets. 10:20
jwb k 10:20
jeremy which, speaking of spins for f10 -- the live image configs are moved as of today (mail forthcoming when I get to it) to the spin-kickstarts repo rather than being in livecd-tools itself 10:20
f13 jwb: can you update/take ownership of ticket 24 once more? 10:20
jwb yes 10:20
f13 ok, moving on. 10:20
f13 well. that was silly, no other tickets there. 10:21
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F10 Beta 10:21
f13 I need to create the various action tickets for the Beta release. 10:21
f13 the process started today with a heads up mail to fedora-devel-announce warning people of hte freeze, requesting people be careful with risky changes from here on out, and to do some beta readiness checking. 10:21
f13 I'm going to be producing full trees again (once we have a working anaconda) to see where we are with things that failed in Alpha, and to look for regressions 10:22
f13 this will be a blocking freeze, so we need to make every effort to have as short of a freeze as possible, which means putting in time now, rather than after the freeze 10:22
f13 as far as schedule goes, I don't necessarily have any immediate reasons to adjust the beta schedule, but I've asked sigs/groups/feature owners/etc... to reflect upon where their area of interest is at right now, and if more (reasonable) time would be useful. 10:26
f13 Fesco/board et al meet this week and should also consider any schedule changes. 10:26
f13 anything further on Beta before we move on to spins? 10:27
wwoods F10 feature window closing. You know what that means: F11 feature window opens 10:28
wwoods heh 10:28
f13 right, I hinted at that. 10:28
* jeremy prefers people to think about f10 features at the moment :) 10:28
f13 ok, lets move on. 10:29
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Spins 10:29
jwb yeah 10:29
wwoods yeah but we just need to remember to get that across for the inevitable complaints about how we maliciously dropped pet-feature-X 10:29
jwb so poelcat you have F10 spins feature pages? 10:29
wwoods but yes. move on,. 10:29
f13 poelcat: you mentioned you had some spins in your queue, are any ready to be presented to releng? 10:29
jeremy as I said above, kickstart configs for default spins have now moved 10:29
f13 or do you need info from releng about what makes them "ready" ? 10:29
f13 jeremy: this is good. Where would I attach myself to get change notifications of this repo? 10:29
jeremy f13: looks like spin-kickstarts-commits@lists.fedorahosted 10:30
* warren back 10:30
poelcat f13: just a sec 10:31
f13 bah, what's the mailman url to that? 10:31
jeremy f13: dunno :) 10:31
poelcat Features/BrOffice.orgSpin 10:32
poelcat Features/EducationSpin 10:32
poelcat Features/GamesSpin 10:32
poelcat Features/XfceSpin 10:32
* poelcat is unclear what the critiera for reviewing them is 10:32
f13 poelcat: these are all ready for review? 10:32
f13 poelcat: "ready for FESCo" works for me 10:32
jwb poelcat, use the same criteria you would with actual Features 10:32
f13 rather "same criteria you'd use to decide a normal feature is ready for FESCo" 10:32
jwb just send them to rel-eng instead 10:32
poelcat okay 10:33
poelcat so, yes, I believe these are all ready 10:33
f13 ok. 10:34
* f13 goes to look at the first one. 10:34
jwb i'm confused 10:35
jwb why are they debranding the whole spin? 10:36
jwb # Needed for spin debranding 10:37
jwb sed -i -e 's/Fedora/Generic/g' /etc/fedora-release 10:37
jwb that seems unnecessary if they've gotten Board approval... 10:37
jeremy but it's needed prior to approval 10:38
f13 this also seems like just desire to get releng/board approval on the trademark, not to actually have us produce the spin. 10:38
jwb why are we reviewing spins that don't have Board approval 10:38
f13 jwb: what's the proper order of approval? 10:39
jwb Board, Spins SIG, Rel-Eng 10:39
jwb yes? 10:39
f13 jwb: releng has to sign off on it technically, board has to sign off on it politically 10:39
jwb kanarip, ping? 10:39
f13 one would think it starts as low as possible and works up, rather than the inverse. 10:39
jwb then Spins SIG would be the first stop 10:39
kanarip jwb, pong 10:39
f13 kanarip: question on the ordering of spin approvals 10:40
jwb kanarip, for Spins... what is the order of approval? 10:40
kanarip i just dropped a big note with a couple of exclamation marks to the spins list about the beta freeze 10:40
jwb kanarip, should spins get approval in this order: 10:40
jwb Spins SIG, Board, Rel-Eng 10:41
jwb or? 10:41
kanarip we as a sig are going to have to sign off on spins technically, they need board approval for trademark usage, then they can become features under the regular FESCo procedures 10:41
jwb well, except FESCo delegated that last step to Rel-Eng 10:41
jwb so seems Spins SIG, Board, Rel-Eng 10:41
kanarip in this case, I can imagine FESCo will ask rel-eng/spin sig about anything related to releasing/spin concepts in that order? 10:41
kanarip let me link you to the thread... 10:42
kanarip http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2008-August/000048.html 10:42
zodbot <http://tinyurl.com/6n2mmr> (at lists.fedoraproject.org) 10:42
f13 kanarip: is the process flow documented in the wiki somewhere, and has the spins sig already approved the BRoffice.org spin? 10:42
kanarip this is what i said so it's basically also what the spin maintainers are going to have to live with *evilgrin* 10:42
kanarip broffice.org.ks is not yet approved 10:43
jwb ok, well that answers that 10:43
jwb :) 10:43
kanarip i'm planning on getting it through the process tomorrow 10:43
jwb ok cool 10:43
f13 kanarip: side note, it seems the package that broffice.org wants to focus on isn't even in the distro yet 10:43
f13 kanarip: so I'm somewhat skeptical that the broffice.org spin will make it 10:43
jwb sounds like we can come back to this next week or later... 10:43
kanarip f13, note taken ;-) 10:43
kanarip you guys have a mailing list at rel-eng@lists.fp.o as well, right? 10:44
f13 ok, the next three are spin approved 10:44
poelcat feature freeze is 2008-08-19... do all spins have to be proposed/accepted by then? 10:44
f13 poelcat: yes 10:44
jwb poelcat, yes 10:44
kanarip poelcat, yes and they better have a feature page as well 10:44
f13 kanarip: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng 10:44
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/EducationSpin 10:45
* kanarip subscribed now 10:45
poelcat kanarip: is there a wiki page summarizing all this? 10:45
kanarip poelcat, /me diggs up the link 10:45
kanarip poelcat, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/SpinSubmissionProcess 10:46
zodbot <http://tinyurl.com/5pdzqf> (at fedoraproject.org) 10:46
kanarip i see how the consecutive process is a little vague on that page btw 10:46
f13 ok, Education spin, I like it in general, I want to be clear on what it should be named (label of the iso and the name of the .iso file both) 10:47
kanarip Education Math please 10:47
f13 also, I think if we're going to produce it, it should be mentioned in the release notes, and the documentation should be "why would somebody use this spin". 10:47
f13 I'm going to make these notes on the discussion page. 10:47
jwb f13, agreed 10:47
mether how is the educational spin related to http://wtogami.livejournal.com/27610.html 10:47
f13 otherwise (given the spin sig's pre-technical approval) I give this a +1 10:47
warren mether: not related at all 10:48
jwb mether, it's not? 10:48
kanarip mether, something different entirely 10:48
mether ok 10:48
jwb +1 10:48
kanarip warren, care to submit that to the spin sig nonetheless? ;-) 10:48
warren I suppose I could. 10:48
kanarip warren, at the very least it'll give you a central repository to maintain the kickstart in 10:48
kanarip warren, that is, if you're not going for all the formal approval and releasing and all that 10:49
f13 any other thoughts about the education spin? 10:49
f13 spot: jeremy: votes ? 10:50
f13 wwoods: you too, any qa thoughts? 10:50
jeremy the education spin could use a little bit of thought on naming just to avoid questions about how it overlaps with, eg, ltsp 10:50
wwoods bluh. the test plans are terrible. 10:51
kanarip jeremy, +1, that's why its education-math.ks, to be named "Education Math" as well 10:51
jeremy kanarip: yeah, the feature page is the main place where the confusion exists I think 10:51
wwoods I'm gonna need to ask some pointed questions in the Talk: sections of those pages, I think 10:51
kanarip i'm not sure where i can document this properly but i've discussed it with the maintainer on-list, fwiw 10:52
f13 wwoods: are you willing to accept it as a featured spin of F10, provided you can work with them on the test plan? 10:52
wwoods mostly "what exactly are you doing" and "how are you doing it" and "who is doing this 'cuz it's not me" 10:52
kanarip jeremy, ok, /me dropping a note to the maintainer 10:52
* spot is +1 10:52
jeremy but it's reasonable to me in general, so +1 10:52
wwoods assuming that the owner is willing to accept responsibility for testing (or designate a tester), sure 10:53
f13 ok. 10:53
wwoods I'll totally help work out a good test plan but we do not have the resources to test spins, nor would I be real happy about releasing untested code 10:53
f13 poelcat: Decision: releng approves the Education Math spin as a featured spin for F10. Feedback has been and will be provided in the feature page 10:54
kanarip wwoods, this is one of the things they kinda accept as well as being on the receiving end of bugs for the remainder of the lifecycle 10:54
kanarip it's implicit acceptance though, not explicit 10:55
wwoods kanarip: exactly. I want explicit acceptance of that fact 10:55
f13 poelcat: also, once the tracker bug has been created for this feature, can we list said bug in the feature page? 10:55
wwoods "Yes, I will test my own spin", followed by at least a broad definition of what testing will be performed 10:56
warren regarding educational spin 10:56
warren My live image right now is almost 1GB without all the educational apps installed. 10:56
warren It kind of makes sense to do both in the same image 10:56
warren but it is going to get freaking huge. 10:57
f13 warren: size might not matter if they're running on lab machines 10:57
warren And maybe it is not a good idea to do both in the same image 10:57
warren because there are a lot of users who want LTSP without the edu stuff. 10:57
f13 live images are just convenient as a medium to deliver 10:57
f13 ok, lets move on to the next spin. 10:58
warren f13: in this case live ltsp server is convenient as the easiest way to install it 10:58
jwb i need to bail for another meeting. as for XFCE and Games, i think both are probably OK but the pages need updating... 10:58
jwb only 10% done? 10:58
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/GamesSpin 10:58
f13 jwb: thanks. 10:58
f13 warren: for places using ltsp sure 10:58
kanarip is there a todo for these spins? 10:58
warren f13: nod 10:58
f13 kanarip: can you expand upon that question? 10:59
kanarip well, with 10% completion you'd think a Games SIG has a little todo list of things yet to do, but it's not on the feature page 10:59
f13 ah. 10:59
f13 Release alpha and beta releases in sync with Fedora 10 Run the Xfce spin through the QA team basic set of tests on i386 and x86_64 platforms Work with Fedora QA to ensure that we have sufficient coverage 10:59
f13 seems the Games spin suffers from a bad cut/paste job. 10:59
f13 mether ? 10:59
f13 it's also missing punctuation 11:00
f13 (nitpicky) 11:00
f13 kanarip: maybe Features/GamesSpin#Dependencies ? 11:00
zodbot <http://tinyurl.com/5ld6tx> (at fedoraproject.org) 11:00
mether f13: someone else is taking over. I will pass him the wiki page for updating it. 11:01
kanarip f13, yikes, nice todo list ;-) 11:01
mether basically we will reuse most of the ks file as it is for Fedora 10 too 11:01
mether adjust the package content a bit but thats all 11:01
f13 * Test plan is woefully lacking information, as well as a cut/paste job from another feature. Links to QA tests would be good since you seem to indicate that there are some known. 11:02
f13 * Contingency plan should list all the places documentation about this spin should be removed in case we don't do it, so that we don't advertise a non-available spin. 11:02
f13 those are the two feedback items I have already 11:02
f13 other than that, I +1 this spin (though I hate the size of it) 11:03
mether games are large. not much to do about that 11:03
kanarip other then maybe splitting some -server packages out 11:04
f13 nod 11:04
jeremy +1 with f13's things 11:04
mether kanarip: yes, posted to list, I will be filing bug reports 11:04
kanarip mether, yeah, i know, i'm dropping a mail on fedora-games to wake people up as well 11:04
wwoods same - +1 with previous todos 11:05
f13 jwb already gave a +1 11:05
spot +1 11:05
f13 spot: warren: ? 11:05
mether kanarip: the only person who has been really responding is hans and he is on vacation. So I am mailing some folks offlist 11:05
kanarip mether, sure 11:05
f13 well, everybody that has responded seems in favor. We'll approve this spin. 11:06
warren +1 to f13's things 11:06
f13 poelcat: Decision: releng approves the Games spin as a featured spin for F10. Feedback has been and will be provided in the feature page 11:06
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/XfceSpin 11:07
f13 User Experience should probably substitute "matches" with "rivals" 11:08
f13 unless it's intended that XFCE will look like gnome, instead of being integrated with itself like gnome 11:08
f13 other than that I have the same feedback as the last spin, and give it a +1 11:08
jeremy +1 11:09
kanarip meaning, you need extension / updates to the feature page, right? 11:09
f13 right 11:09
f13 jwb also approved this spin 11:10
wwoods I'm wwoods, and I approve this spin. 11:10
f13 heh 11:10
f13 warren: spot: lmacken: votes? 11:11
warren +1 11:11
spot +1 11:12
lmacken +1 11:12
f13 ok, this passes too. 11:12
f13 alright 11:12
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Spins 11:13
mether f13: xfce default look is intended to be just the same as gnome more or less. same theme, icons, background etc 11:13
f13 now that we have a set of spins approved for F10, should we produce them for Beta and put them on the torrent? 11:13
f13 seems reasonable to me, and can be done in parallel with the other composing 11:13
* jwb peeks in 11:14
jwb yes. otherwise, what's the point of having them track via Feature pages? 11:15
kanarip seems reasonable enough to me, but i'm wondering what happened to developer and electronic-lab? 11:15
kanarip did i miss out on something or are they lacking feature pages or anything? 11:15
kanarip *that you know of? 11:15
jwb kanarip, i've not seen pages for either 11:15
kanarip right 11:15
mether kanarip: nobody created one. 11:16
kanarip argh, as well btw 11:16
mether there is a fedora electronics list if one wants to reach them 11:16
f13 mether: where 'theme/icons/backgrounds as gnome' you mean the ones Fedora sets for the Gnome desktop, not upstream gnome? 11:16
mether f13: not upstream. Fedora customization 11:16
mether Nodoka got ported and is the default Xfce theme 11:16
mether within Fedora 11:16
f13 note that we should probably set an upper limit on how many spins we create, space considerations compose/test/sync considerations and such 11:17
f13 mether: gotcha, that could be made more clear in the documentation/release-notes/etc... 11:17
mether alright, I will clarify that. Kinda assume that was known somehow 11:18
f13 mether: maybe if you already know what xfce is or intimately involved in the spin. Casual users or first timers wouldn't. 11:18
mether right, i understand that. I will expand the docs section 11:19
f13 jeremy: spot: warren: thoughts on producing spin images for torrent for beta? 11:19
f13 jwb: think you might have time to do spin image creations for the beta? 11:19
warren the spins we talked about in this meeting? 11:19
jeremy definitely should 11:19
jwb f13, if mmcgrath can get the guests up, yeah i think so 11:20
f13 jwb: we still have compose-x86 11:20
spot seems sane to me, unless the responsible parties want to wait for some reason 11:20
jwb just one? 11:20
f13 warren: and any others we approve before the Beta freeze 11:20
f13 jwb: there was also test3, not sure if we still have that 11:20
jwb f13, maybe the requirements for the spin host have changed since i did it last... 11:20
f13 jwb: it can all be done from an x86_64 host 11:21
f13 unless we want to do live ppc images. 11:21
jwb i thought we needed x86 and x86_64, both running rawhide with SELinux in permissive? 11:21
f13 nope, setarch is your friend. 11:21
warren Fedora 10-based Live LTSP Server definitely wont be ready for beta. 11:21
jwb f13, ok. so is compose-x86 what you are doing the regular composes on? 11:21
warren well... I might be able to get it working, but higher priority items like actually getting new mkinitrd code done before beta... 11:22
warren I might not make it. 11:22
kanarip f13, test3 was down last time i checked 11:22
f13 jwb: I'll be doing shadow composes there, as well as on reducto internally 11:22
f13 kanarip: ok, that's fine. 11:22
jwb f13, and the SELinux setup is right? 11:22
f13 jwb: I do believe it's set for permissive 11:22
f13 if not, we can adjust as necessary 11:22
kanarip which is right 11:22
jwb cool. if i can't get to the machine for some reason, i'll figure it out 11:22
f13 k 11:23
f13 jwb: we should take that for a test drive this week, ensure the spin ks's are in working order. 11:24
f13 kanarip: Can the spin sig coordinate on a branch or a tag to use for the Beta, so that we have something stable to pull from, but won't block further work? 11:24
f13 (in the spin-kickstarts git repo that is) 11:24
kanarip f13, yes we can 11:25
f13 ok. 11:25
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Floor 11:25
kanarip f13, actually i'll be branching but what the heck 11:25
f13 we're 25 minutes over, I know, but it was good to get through the spins we had. 11:25
f13 kanarip: yeah, either a branch or a tag, either works for us on the pulling side. 11:26
f13 poelcat: oh, Decision: Releng approves the XFCE spin as a featured spin for Fedora 10 11:26
kanarip f13, awesome, a branch will allow me to delete the spins you do not have approved to compose 11:26
f13 looks like there is no open business, lets call it a meeting. Thanks all! 11:28

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