From Fedora Project Wiki
<markg85> mchua, here and ready for the meeting
<ricky> I'm not sure either. I guess it'd depend on how many other dependencies could get pulled it
<juank_prada> ok got it
<juank_prada> ill check if i can help on that later :)
<mchua> hey markg85 - ready to go as well.
<mchua> thanks for your patience, it's been a really hectic day
<mchua> (anybody else here to take a look at the tasks lists? juank_prada, ricky?)
<juank_prada> oh are we having a meeting today?
<mchua> juank_prada: not a formal one
<mchua> juank_prada: ricky started updating the status of the (long-ignored) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks stuff a few days back
<mchua> juank_prada: and since markg85 and I were working on some stuff we thought today would be a good day to check in, and figured we'd invite anyone else who'd like to join us
<juank_prada> ok.. i've been somehow since last year so i would like to catch up with you guys
<juank_prada> good
<juank_prada> let me check the task list
* ricky is partially here
<markg85> one thing before we start... please don't ask to many or long questions.. my head hurts like hell and feels like it's about to explode
* giarc is lurking but at work
<mchua> markg85: np
<mchua> juank_prada: yay! catching up is good, I'm new so I've got a lot of ramping up to do.
<mchua> markg85: ok.
<juank_prada> mchua, im not new... but i've been lost ^^
<mchua> ok, so the first thing was markg85 , "Braindump thoughts on what needs to be improved to the wiki, as specific as possible." Mark, I can't find that on your userpage anymore, where should we look?
<markg85> mchua, max cleand it up. look one revision back
<mchua> *browser loads...*
<markg85> the max version sums it all up fairly good
<markg85> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Markg85&oldid=107486
<mchua> markg85: how do you think it went this week? i know we had some getting-started bumps, which is normal when you're getting used to contributing to a project for the first time
<mchua> but this is looking good to me
<juank_prada> i would like to know if there has been any ideas or discussion around fp.org main site..
<mchua> juank_prada: we're kind of doing that right now, the discussions are scattered and just starting.
<markg85> mchua, besides talking there wasn't much we did ^_^ so i can't really say it went well or horrible
<markg85> mchua, in terms of "productivity" it went horrible.. in terms of getting to know how things work in fedora it went well
<juank_prada> i mean... the get-fedora site was updated with an easy way to download fedora but still think it on some other section an improvement is needed
<mchua> markg85: I miss seeing the images of your mockups, do you want to repost those somewhere?
<juank_prada> mchua, i mean the static website not the wiki ^^
<mchua> juank_prada: that's actually what markg85 was working on - gathering and coming up with "here's how the website could look better" thoughts.
<markg85> mchua, they are in the link i gave: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Markg85&oldid=107486
<juank_prada> oh good my bad then ... hehe as i said... im catching up
<mchua> markg85: yeah, but they don't show up as images - would you like me to move them to a brainstorms section on the webpages wiki?
<mchua> (I can do that right now.)
<markg85> mchua, go ahead
<markg85> mchua, they do show up here btw..
<mchua> juank_prada: there are a lot of people with ideas on how the site should be improved, but I don't think we've all realized who else is talking about it yet :) so you should write out your thoughts and share them! (Do you have notes on your ideas for fp.o on a wiki page somewhere?)
<mchua> markg85: I think it's mostly that my laptop's wifi is molasses today. :) Will move 'em over.
<markg85> ok
<juank_prada> mchua, some time ago i posted some ideas on my blog... i might bring them back to discussion if thats ok
<mchua> juank_prada: totally, yes!
<markg85> juank_prada, with images?
<juank_prada> yeap
* markg85 likes visual stuff ^_^
<mchua> juank_prada: and I'm new here as well, so you definitely don't have to ask my permission for this stuff ;)
* mchua likes visual stuff too
<mchua> (but is less good at making it)
<juank_prada> http://juankprada.livejournal.com/7682.html
<juank_prada> some of the things i present there were already discussed so it would be good to avoid that discussion again and start from where all that was left
<juank_prada> this is another one -> http://juankprada.livejournal.com/4805.html
<markg85> juank_prada, i'm brand new here. i have no clue what's been discussed/implemented/rejected about those ideas (still reading)
<juank_prada> which uses mizmo_ templates
<juank_prada> the thing is... we have to avoid lots and lots of links and provide as less server requests as possible (AJAX?)
<mchua> ricky, mizmo_, quaid, et al - we've got 3 people catching up on websites stuff here, so it's a bit of blind-leading-the-blind. ;) if we're getting really off-track, please holler!
* mchua can't believe how slow the wiki is loading right now... maybe my wifi is just angsty.
<juank_prada> it might be better to discuss such things with them on a official meeting imho
<juank_prada> by now we can brainstorm some things to discuss with them... maybe taking into a count the current get-fedora section as an example of how they want things to be
<juank_prada> of course there is always improvements to make on that section
<markg85> juank_prada, a few points. 1. all your links are 404 (page not found)
<juank_prada> what?
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<mchua> juank_prada +1 - I consider this a brainstorm chat. (Sorry I'm so quiet right now, I'm trying to put Mark's stuff into the wiki, and page load times are killing me.)
<markg85> juank_prada, 2. i like your Get Fedora mackup a lot more then the current one online (as far as the mockup is readable)
<juank_prada> really?... how is that i can actually check that :P
<markg85> juank_prada, http://juankprada.livejournal.com/7682.html the links there are all 404..
<juank_prada> oh.. the links for the images are broken
<markg85> and the demo
<juank_prada> yeah i have a problem with my fedorapeople space..
<juank_prada> i forgot about that
<markg85> mchua, then just skip it for now ^_^ put it somewherein your agenda where you have the time for it
<markg85> mchua, i'm not in a rush
<juank_prada> well... that design was reject in pro of the actual get-fedora design
<mchua> juank_prada, markg85 - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Brainstorms
<mchua> juank_prada: if you could put whatever links/designs you have there, that would rock
<juank_prada> ill try to organize all my proposals somewhere to make comparisons, i'm sure i have some other mockups somewhere else
<markg85> juank_prada, your proposal would be my idea of an "advanced" selection. the default one would then be those in my mockups or something else we still have to think out
<mchua> markg85: yeah, sorry, I'll defer further wiki monkeying-around 'till after we're done talking. But hey, we have a page now. :)
<markg85> mchua, oke :)
<juank_prada> one thing that was discussed back then was the idea of having a one click download method from the main site
<juank_prada> which imho is a must
<markg85> mchua, juank_prada: just a question in between.. do you 2 run Fedora 11?
<juank_prada> i do
<mchua> markg85: not yet, I'm still on f10. was planning to upgrade this weekend.
<mchua> f11 looks totally sweet.
<juank_prada> yes it does... and runs even better :)
* mchua rejoices
<mchua> I'm looking forward to it then!
<mchua> juank_prada: see, this is why we need people like you here, because you know what's been discussed in the past :)
<juank_prada> guys i have to go.. its time for my knee therapy :S
<markg85> mchua, juank_prada: i'm planning to install it soon then write down all my issues i find while installing it and first time using it since my opinion can now be relatively objective :P
<mchua> juank_prada: if you could email or post to the wiki links to the old design discussions you think should be brought up again, that would be wonderful
<mchua> juank_prada: see you later! thanks for the thoughts
<mchua> juank_prada: and hope your knee gets better!
<juank_prada> markg85, perhaps you might want to talk about that with mizmo_ which actually has made some usabillity testing
<mchua> markg85: ooh, that's a good idea. I'll do the same.
<markg85> juank_prada, good luck :)
<juank_prada> thanks... see you later guys
* mchua digs around
<mchua> markg85: some stuff I just found, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Lrileywoods/Usability_Testing and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability
* juank_prada has quit ("Leaving")
<mchua> which may or may not be useful to you writing notes on f11, I should look through this stuff myself
* mchua reads
* markg85 reads
<mchua> ...wow, okay, that's a little more involved than what I was thinking, but maybe I'll record a screencast and then tape myself talking over it. Anyhow...
* mchua puts "mark and mel are taking notes on f11 first impressions" on task list so we'll remember
<mchua> hm, I wonder what else we can do to help this go forward
<mchua> ricky, mizmo_ : ping
<markg85> mchua, i wasn't exactly planning on following a usability test list.. just install and use fedora and see what issues i encounter in the first few runs. in detail testing like that stuff on the wiki can be done at any time
* mchua nods
<mchua> yeah, I'm definitely not going to do a formal test of any sort either
<markg85> mchua, one of the things i noticed while running it under KVM was that i couldn't install fedora.. it doesn't seem see the hdd
<ricky> mchua: pong
<markg85> that was just a 10 minutes test run to see how it looked and i was impressed :)
<mchua> ricky: we're looking at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks
<mchua> ricky: I think we're out of things to do to help out other than cleaning up https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Brainstorms a little
<mchua> ricky: any thoughts on new tasks that should be made, or existing tasks that people might want to hand off or get help with?
<ricky> What I'd personally like to ese more of is discussion on improving join-fedora and the join process in general
<ricky> This involves FAS, the wiki, the various teams, and the static page on the website.
<ricky> That's the latest task we were concentrating on discussing before I started drowning in schoolwork :-/
<mchua> ricky: so the end goal of that is to improve our websites to increase the number of quality new contributors?
* markg85 wonders if that has anything to do with my CLA critic ;)
<mchua> (mnergh, schoolwork...)
<ricky> Yes, and to make it a step by step process to get involved.
<mchua> ricky: I would *love* to work on that
<mchua> ricky: are there any old discussions/notes we should look at?
<mchua> ricky: (or people, or particular teams other than "each team should have a good join process"?)
<markg85> add it to the tasks list ^_^
* ricky searches for the meeting logs
* mchua follow's markg85's suggestion *wikiwiki*
<markg85> hehe
* mchua dislikes mw table syntax
<ricky> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2009-January/msg00029.html
* markg85 misses WYS>IWYG in mw
* mchua reads
* markg85 is not gonna read it while my head nearly bursts...
<markg85> that's a lot to read lol
<ricky> A lot of good idea though
<mchua> ricky: any thoughts on good deliverables to aim at for this?
<markg85> add it to the brainstorms page plz.
<ricky> Well, a new join-fedora page :-) But I'm not too clear on what intermediate steps there are.
<ricky> A start is to consolidate and document the various join processes we currently have.
<ricky> Figure out how those can be simplified and broken up to be presented on a web page.
<mchua> ricky: ok, so a report/tour of current paths to joining fedora (as far as the total new-contributor experience goes, or routes-through-webpages specifically?)
<ricky> Yes.
<mchua> (as in, are we looking for "a lot of people talk with ambassadors!" or more like "people that start on this page can go to this page and then this page.")
<mchua> ?
<ricky> Personal experiences (particularly "what made me cross the line to become a contributor") are extremely useful as well.
<ricky> Those are both entry points that we'd have to consider
<markg85> the entire wiki is unlikely to be the "made me cross the line" part...
<mchua> Ah, cool. One thing I was talking with mizmo_ about was doing an interview series with contributors to ask them specifically about that.
<markg85> for me the blogpost of max did
<mchua> Which is a pretty large project, but a smaller, more boot-strappy version would work for the j.fp.o project.
<ricky> Yup, that's definitely good.
<ricky> One thing I'm still frustrated with is how unclear the function of FAS is vs. mailing lists, IRC channels, etc.
<ricky> I'm of the opinion that FAS is not the place you go to join/get involved with a group - the groups there usually exist for tracking and access reasons.
<mchua> ricky: okay, thanks - I think that's enough to go from. The metric I'm thinking of is "how many contributions (commits, mailing list posts, etc.) to f12 come from first-time contributors compared to f11"? (not that we'll be able to measure that well, but...)
<ricky> The real teams are at the mailing lists, IRC channels, etc. That may need to be emphasized.
<ricky> Yup
<mchua> ricky: Yeah, that's the same impression I've gotten.
<markg85> ricky, want to know my reasoning NOT to join for a very long time?
<mchua> markg85: I'd like you to be one of the first interviewees, if you're willing.
<markg85> might be valuable
<mchua> markg85: (though I probably won't start doing that until at least next week)
<markg85> mchua, sure fine with me
<markg85> mchua, my agenda is filled up with school for the comming 2 weeks
<mchua> markg85: Oh - then maybe I should catch you at the start of July then.
<mchua> markg85: I think this will be something that goes on for a while.
<mchua> markg85: and not being hosed is good.
<markg85> assessments, exams, re-exams... learning till my head explodes
<markg85> and then still failing ;)
<markg85> mchua, just ping me when you see me online and when you have time. i probably say yes anyway :P
<mchua> ok, I think I've got enough to run with j.fp.o for a bit
<mchua> markg85, do you want to do j.fp.o too, or keep focusing on the download experience?
<mchua> and ricky, it sounds like you usually call website meetings... did you want to call a (real) one next week?
<markg85> mchua, for the mockups: none in the comming 2 weeks and then only the main fedora page and download for now
<markg85> mchua, for the interview: ping me whenever you have time
<mchua> ricky: I'm going to start going through the task list and pinging people for updates, but a real meeting would be good, to catch folks up
<mchua> markg85: ok, I will
<mchua> markg85, ricky: I think I'm set for now, you guys need anything else from me?
<markg85> mchua, just take a nice long break now before you start working again ^_^
<mchua> *grin*
<mchua> I'll do that, my computer is telling me to take an rsi break anyway
<mchua> thanks guys! I'll see you later
<mchua> and ricky, if you could call a meeting, that would be great, I'll ping people on the task list when I get back
<markg85> mchua, meeting for: j.fp.o + main + get fedora?
<mchua> markg85: meeting for the whole websites crew
<mchua> I think it'll be the most efficient way for everyone to figure out what everybody else is working on
<mchua> (and then have potential partnership goodness)
<markg85> mchua, guess that includes me now as well.
<mchua> yep.
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<markg85> mchua, strange idea that i can finally make a change (or attempt to) in something of fedora
<mchua> Bug #52736: that should not be a strange idea. ;)
<markg85> mchua, You are not authorized to access bug #52736.
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<markg85> i'm gone. Good luck mchua.
* markg85 has quit ("Leaving")