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< Flock | Volunteers
| mizmo | and what we ask in terms of the rules we set up | |
|---|---|---|
| mizmo | called out two different things | |
| mizmo | what we do inside the distro, as what we ship | |
| mizmo | then what we tell others what they can do on top of the distro | |
| mizmo | what's in the set of packages that is shipped - we have full contrl over and rules for | |
| mizmo | but we should also provide guidelines for what people do on top of it | |
| mizmo | so.. they tried | |
| mizmo | it's okay | |
| mizmo | i can hear | |
| mizmo | but it's a goal of theirs | |
| mizmo | when we dropped compatibility library | |
| mizmo | combination of one philosophy methodology | |
| mizmo | i think you have to deal with | |
| mizmo | the questoin was around... what ... | |
| mizmo | "how much of that answer is part philisophy,methodology and the other part is incoprorating from these other tech, version control, packages, iniside the app" | |
| mizmo | there are some places where we need to worry about the library api | |
| mizmo | glibc for example | |
| mizmo | compatibility will be a nightmare in the long run | |
| mizmo | certain pieces where we worry aobut the library apis | |
| mizmo | glibc is one example where i dsay, the library may change its api and the whole world depedns on it | |
| mizmo | "api/abi compatibility?" | |
| mizmo | glibc world vs. ruby... the ruby world breaks things all the time | |
| mizmo | so what do you look at, different parts of the osftware, managing change | |
| mizmo | for glibc i would say, the core pkg mechanism is absolutely correct | |
| mizmo | for ruby, where you need specific versions of things running, moving into a solution pattern makes sense | |
| mizmo | but we have to recognize those differences | |
| mizmo | and figure out the solution | |
| mizmo | the soloution we have for glibc can't apply to ruby | |
| mizmo | that's one of the key pieces | |
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| mizmo | "one of the other things to look at... ppl you could have lots of platforms and ppl are using your platform.. where these days other languages... including java... so what that means is developers... more interested... specific rules | |
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| mizmo | "and so if that step of getting something deployable according to platform... to make it happen... | |
| mizmo | "we don't car eabout other ppl, then" | |
| mizmo | just let the call drop its okay | |
| mizmo | i dont have enough minutes on my plan | |
| mizmo | it's flexible enough that fedora packagfes could submit upstream... | |
| mizmo | hey can you just use this extra metadata | |
| mizmo | flock-ectr-107, let the call drop | |
| mizmo | flock-ectr-107, please let the call drop | |
| mizmo | it's the thing of... i'm not trying to | |
| mizmo | .. all that other stuff, packaging we need to look out for, at the same time we can put in hooks such that if the distro want to collaborate effectively | |
| mizmo | we can potentially get some sort of solution... barriers to entry of getting stuff converted or added | |
| mizmo | python, then we don't have to change the pcakaging | |
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| mizmo | so you're still... the other thing you have... python and ruby... ruby has bundler... basically... | |
| mizmo | um, and so what they set up... is that you have the distro / platform and then you basically have a silo which is your application | |
| mizmo | and you are delcaring clearly, these are all the things i'm depending on and i am including | |
| mizmo | you're ignoring what platform's providing | |
| mizmo | but you may be providing other services | |
| mizmo | platform providing runtime env | |
| mizmo | platform underneath but then you let app developers do their silos and decide how to integrate with platform | |
| sgallagh | (this is Nick Coughlan speaking right now, if that wasn't noted before I rejoined) | |
| mizmo | you are basically picking versions but in a way such that it's not... doesn't need to be invisible | |
| mizmo | sgallagh, lol thanks | |
| mizmo | the distro, you control what's in that layer, no duplicating this thing over here... once you get up into the software collection layer you are relingquishing contrl to app devs | |
| mizmo | the security setup of app developers is still shocking but it's getting better | |
| mizmo | what we need from the distro, at a certain point the responsibility for security updates has to be transferred from platform provider to app developer | |
| mizmo | when it gets handed over... | |
| mizmo | software collections... offer the ability to do that thing where system can take over and tell you what's happening inside | |
| mizmo | but the distro is going to hand off... we will let people see whats in there but won't take responsibility | |
| sgallagh | We will audit what's in there but won't take responsibility. | |
| mizmo | thats the app's responsibility | |
| sgallagh | The platform provider is giving you tools to manage those collections | |
| mizmo | go talk to the software vendor if you have issues | |
| mizmo | let htem do their jobs | |
| mizmo | <subhendu> | |
| mizmo | if you look back at linux, unix, solaris | |
| mizmo | all the third party software, all sitting in an isolated place on the fs | |
| mizmo | so clearly distinguished from what the OS is | |
| mizmo | they way we pkg the distr, there is no distinction between what is from the os and what is a third party package | |
| sgallagh | The way we package the distro has no distinction between distro and third-party | |
| mizmo | <?> | |
| sgallagh | <langdon> | |
| mizmo | 10 years ago you couldn't trust the vendors | |
| mizmo | primarily around... | |
| mizmo | a lot of distros, were a really advantageous scenario for anyone consuming those toolchains | |
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| mizmo | bc basically it was like, this is the only way you could ensure what you were getting | |
| mizmo | the prob in the sense | |
| mizmo | i think theres a lot of them you still cant trust | |
| mizmo | but | |
| mizmo | most of them are much much much better | |
| mizmo | the things that are generally used have gotten much better | |
| mizmo | can we let the vendors do more of what they're supposed to be doing? | |
| sgallagh | By vendor I mean any application | |
| mizmo | by vendor i mean, any app | |
| mizmo | in some sense... | |
| mizmo | properietary solution, vs open source solution | |
| sgallagh | With a proprietary solution, you're put through fewer hoops | |
| mizmo | trust oepn source guys to do les sthan proprietary guys | |
| sgallagh | We trust open-source guys less | |
| sgallagh | Because we *can* audit more, we do | |
| mizmo | <nick> | |
| mizmo | the ones which let the app | |
| mizmo | where theres no visibility | |
| mizmo | part of that, it used to be... | |
| mizmo | i paid for google apps for my personal email | |
| mizmo | same argument for an enterprise | |
| mizmo | you pay for some apps so they're in silos | |
| mizmo | in open source, there's so many | |
| mizmo | something around it | |
| sgallagh | <pjones> | |
| mizmo | giant checkbook | |
| mizmo | bc they're authors | |
| mizmo | look you can't use this software | |
| mizmo | effectively they're just... | |
| mizmo | work for a company | |
| mizmo | something... hardware | |
| mizmo | linux software... operateing system | |
| mizmo | we're not microsoft, we're not red hat | |
| mizmo | <?? who is this? | |
| mizmo | we essentially provide those products | |
| mizmo | cli not for a lot of ppl | |
| mizmo | network engineers or sysops | |
| mizmo | for us that' skind of, we don't ... that's a money losing business we do | |
| mizmo | multi-something requirement is a big deal | |
| mizmo | unfortunately as a company we have to go to lowest common denominator | |
| mizmo | unfortunately that's java... | |
| mizmo | html 5 and web dl support | |
| mizmo | will start shipping some of that too | |
| mizmo | but still what we've thought about... not a liability issue, just a mitigation issue | |
| mizmo | so if im dependent on ... works really good is gtk+ for java | |
| mizmo | and then for java, then every distro is going to just ... take patches from openjdk and push it out | |
| mizmo | it may break my app | |
| mizmo | but more importantly | |
| mizmo | there may be a liability in that that i have to assess | |
| mizmo | so we break the rules we have our own version of gdk | |
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| mizmo | jdk | |
| mizmo | kind of have to play with a lot of different variables | |
| mizmo | got to try to cut down the number of variables | |
| mizmo | <peter ?> | |
| sgallagh | yes | |
| mizmo | initially eeverything was a giant bundle | |
| mizmo | now things you see on android | |
| mizmo | google apps web api | |
| mizmo | everything using google maps | |
| mizmo | it's ... | |
| mizmo | it's not like... clearly defined boundary of platform api | |
| sgallagh | <nick> | |
| mizmo | platform api... huge set of things | |
| flock-ectr-107 | 5 minutes | |
| mizmo | i ran rhel... for 6 months | |
| mizmo | and.. the thing that finally broke me and sent me back to fedora | |
| mizmo | was trying to run inkscape | |
| mizmo | rhel has a version of inkscape, but it's ancient and awful | |
| mizmo | it's an application | |
| mizmo | so.. . | |
| mizmo | i run inkscape in fedora | |
| mizmo | one example | |
| mizmo | that's the thing, that should be in its own silo | |
| mizmo | <subhendu> | |
| mizmo | as fedora gets bigger and bigger | |
| mizmo | evreything moves at a diff pace | |
| mizmo | no way to look at, what is the stable core | |
| mizmo | what are the apis | |
| mizmo | what ar ethe things osmebody should look at | |
| mizmo | somebody complains about, this isn't the latest software on fedora | |
| mizmo | that's the 1%... why isnt it upgraded | |
| mizmo | <nick> | |
| mizmo | sql not upgraded? | |
| mizmo | fedora moves too fast, ... fedora.. ? | |
| mizmo | <?> | |
| sgallagh | <sgallagh> Fedora moves to fast and Fedora moves too slowly | |
| mizmo | at the end of the day just to figure out on backend so customer / developer / end user has set of capabilities , but has to be transaprent | |
| mizmo | so i can hav ethe choice | |
| mizmo | all the core pkgs i need | |
| sgallagh | <local, name currently unknown (badge hidden)> | |
| mizmo | but also, if i dont have it, i have the ability to | |
| mizmo | something os, third party repo, having to look at the pile and install and manage separately | |
| mizmo | there has to be a middle place in between | |
| mizmo | other than always bleeding edge | |
| mizmo | open shift an interesting way to solve that | |
| mizmo | cut down to the atomic level | |
| mizmo | but all the govt custs, we're just getting to the point that we're comf pushing out virt containers | |
| mizmo | getting to atomic level will be another two years out | |
| mizmo | bc there are so many security issues | |
| mizmo | eg java system | |
| mizmo | module per year... hasn't taken off on very small abackend services | |
| mizmo | put in a central... job of a whole os stack | |
| mizmo | want to make as transparent and easy as possible | |
| mizmo | to help ppl adopt | |
| mizmo | would love for you to mak eit simple for us to make an app realatively cheap to build and to manage | |
| mizmo | to spend more time with our devels on building more features | |
| mizmo | we're ok with taking responsibility | |
| mizmo | doing biz with govt... | |
| mizmo | <subhendu?> | |
| mizmo | somewhere we need fedora to say | |
| sgallagh | yes | |
| mizmo | here are the guidelines for what you should do | |
| mizmo | to build on top of edora | |
| mizmo | that needs to be explicit | |
| mizmo | not sometihng ppl would assume | |
| mizmo | <? langdon?> microsoft always worked this way | |
| sgallagh | <langdon> | |
| mizmo | microsoft core os... they even... | |
| mizmo | for a while were trying to get down... to have a core version of windows | |
| mizmo | <nick ?> | |
| sgallagh | <pjones previously> Video game consoles as examples of stable platform | |
| mizmo | actual example of it, combination of windows... | |
| mizmo | access point | |
| sgallagh | windows + Steam | |
| mizmo | vendor gave it, just... ?? platform | |
| mizmo | basically a platform provider giving a bunch of rules, this is what you must do to participate in platfofrm | |
| mizmo | but ultimately the responsibliity for that content is on you | |
| sgallagh | <langdon> | |
| flock-ectr-107 | 5 more minutes | |
| sgallagh | Scope is the problem | |
| flock-ectr-107 | (again :) ) | |
| mizmo | the problem, 10 years ago | |
| sgallagh | Number out of a hat, ten years ago that scope was significantly smaller | |
| sgallagh | Steam, Android: small | |
| mizmo | providig the platform... it's always a fine line right off the bat, where is the edge | |
| mizmo | how much is the platform, how much is the app | |
| sgallagh | Always a fine line off the bat of "wheere's the edge?": | |
| mizmo | too many ppl talking at once | |
| sgallagh | yeah | |
| mizmo | android tablet... pci can run anything on it? | |
| mizmo | <subhendu> | |
| sgallagh | <pjones> No one picks it up and thinks of it as a general-purpose PC | |
| mizmo | if we look at where we want to take fedora for the future | |
| mizmo | different archicterues | |
| flock-ectr-107 | I would move the cam at them but that'd be so much permission trouble | |
| mizmo | that's tomorrow | |
| mizmo | design decisions | |
| mizmo | inside fedora | |
| mizmo | and then how do we communicate | |
| mizmo | flock-ectr-107, it's all good :) | |
| mizmo | what is the name of the talk you guys are looking for | |
| sgallagh | Build-system | |
| sgallagh | aka COPRs | |
| sgallagh | Originally was going to be given by Seth | |
| mizmo | seen a couple of our customers go out and talk to isps | |
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| mizmo | look for custom software for that | |
| mizmo | software product upgrades | |
| mizmo | a lot of companies share their app infra across a large number of hosts | |
| mizmo | thats why when we start building software collections | |
| mizmo | nfs mount it | |
| mizmo | dev and distro env is shared out | |
| mizmo | epel is part of the world we want fedora to define | |
| mizmo | how do you participate from inside or on top | |
| mizmo | today epel is treated as if its part of fedora | |
| mizmo | but its really for rhel | |
| mizmo | so the rules make sense? | |
| mizmo | <?> | |
| mizmo | one of the probs, there needs to be a repo | |
| mizmo | in some way that is less messy than a brand new ? | |
| mizmo | too many talking at once | |
| mizmo | <applause> | |
| flock-ectr-107 | we are out of here | |
| mizmo | thanks | |
| mizmo | :) | |
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