Flock/Volunteers/Evolution of a Linux Distribution and its Ecosystem

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mizmoand what we ask in terms of the rules we set up
mizmocalled out two different things
mizmowhat we do inside the distro, as what we ship
mizmothen what we tell others what they can do on top of the distro
mizmowhat's in the set of packages that is shipped - we have full contrl over and rules for
mizmobut we should also provide guidelines for what people do on top of it
mizmoso.. they tried
mizmoit's okay
mizmoi can hear
mizmobut it's a goal of theirs
mizmowhen we dropped compatibility library
mizmocombination of one philosophy methodology
mizmoi think you have to deal with
mizmothe questoin was around... what ...
mizmo"how much of that answer is part philisophy,methodology and the other part is incoprorating from these other tech, version control, packages, iniside the app"
mizmothere are some places where we need to worry about the library api
mizmoglibc for example
mizmocompatibility will be a nightmare in the long run
mizmocertain pieces where we worry aobut the library apis
mizmoglibc is one example where i dsay, the library may change its api and the whole world depedns on it
mizmo"api/abi compatibility?"
mizmoglibc world vs. ruby... the ruby world breaks things all the time
mizmoso what do you look at, different parts of the osftware, managing change
mizmofor glibc i would say, the core pkg mechanism is absolutely correct
mizmofor ruby, where you need specific versions of things running, moving into a solution pattern makes sense
mizmobut we have to recognize those differences
mizmoand figure out the solution
mizmothe soloution we have for glibc can't apply to ruby
mizmothat's one of the key pieces
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mizmo"one of the other things to look at... ppl you could have lots of platforms and ppl are using your platform.. where these days other languages... including java... so what that means is developers... more interested... specific rules
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mizmo"and so if that step of getting something deployable according to platform... to make it happen...
mizmo"we don't car eabout other ppl, then"
mizmojust let the call drop its okay
mizmoi dont have enough minutes on my plan
mizmoit's flexible enough that fedora packagfes could submit upstream...
mizmohey can you just use this extra metadata
mizmoflock-ectr-107, let the call drop
mizmoflock-ectr-107, please let the call drop
mizmoit's the thing of... i'm not trying to
mizmo.. all that other stuff, packaging we need to look out for, at the same time we can put in hooks such that if the distro want to collaborate effectively
mizmowe can potentially get some sort of solution... barriers to entry of getting stuff converted or added
mizmopython, then we don't have to change the pcakaging
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mizmoso you're still... the other thing you have... python and ruby... ruby has bundler... basically...
mizmoum, and so what they set up... is that you have the distro / platform and then you basically have a silo which is your application
mizmoand you are delcaring clearly, these are all the things i'm depending on and i am including
mizmoyou're ignoring what platform's providing
mizmobut you may be providing other services
mizmoplatform providing runtime env
mizmoplatform underneath but then you let app developers do their silos and decide how to integrate with platform
sgallagh(this is Nick Coughlan speaking right now, if that wasn't noted before I rejoined)
mizmoyou are basically picking versions but in a way such that it's not... doesn't need to be invisible
mizmosgallagh, lol thanks
mizmothe distro, you control what's in that layer, no duplicating this thing over here... once you get up into the software collection layer you are relingquishing contrl to app devs
mizmothe security setup of app developers is still shocking but it's getting better
mizmowhat we need from the distro, at a certain point the responsibility for security updates has to be transferred from platform provider to app developer
mizmowhen it gets handed over...
mizmosoftware collections... offer the ability to do that thing where system can take over and tell you what's happening inside
mizmobut the distro is going to hand off... we will let people see whats in there but won't take responsibility
sgallagh We will audit what's in there but won't take responsibility.
mizmothats the app's responsibility
sgallaghThe platform provider is giving you tools to manage those collections
mizmogo talk to the software vendor if you have issues
mizmolet htem do their jobs
mizmo<subhendu>
mizmoif you look back at linux, unix, solaris
mizmoall the third party software, all sitting in an isolated place on the fs
mizmoso clearly distinguished from what the OS is
mizmothey way we pkg the distr, there is no distinction between what is from the os and what is a third party package
sgallaghThe way we package the distro has no distinction between distro and third-party
mizmo<?>
sgallagh<langdon>
mizmo10 years ago you couldn't trust the vendors
mizmoprimarily around...
mizmoa lot of distros, were a really advantageous scenario for anyone consuming those toolchains
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mizmobc basically it was like, this is the only way you could ensure what you were getting
mizmothe prob in the sense
mizmoi think theres a lot of them you still cant trust
mizmobut
mizmomost of them are much much much better
mizmothe things that are generally used have gotten much better
mizmocan we let the vendors do more of what they're supposed to be doing?
sgallaghBy vendor I mean any application
mizmoby vendor i mean, any app
mizmoin some sense...
mizmoproperietary solution, vs open source solution
sgallaghWith a proprietary solution, you're put through fewer hoops
mizmotrust oepn source guys to do les sthan proprietary guys
sgallaghWe trust open-source guys less
sgallaghBecause we *can* audit more, we do
mizmo<nick>
mizmothe ones which let the app
mizmowhere theres no visibility
mizmopart of that, it used to be...
mizmoi paid for google apps for my personal email
mizmosame argument for an enterprise
mizmoyou pay for some apps so they're in silos
mizmoin open source, there's so many
mizmosomething around it
sgallagh<pjones>
mizmogiant checkbook
mizmobc they're authors
mizmolook you can't use this software
mizmoeffectively they're just...
mizmowork for a company
mizmosomething... hardware
mizmolinux software... operateing system
mizmowe're not microsoft, we're not red hat
mizmo<?? who is this?
mizmowe essentially provide those products
mizmocli not for a lot of ppl
mizmonetwork engineers or sysops
mizmofor us that' skind of, we don't ... that's a money losing business we do
mizmomulti-something requirement is a big deal
mizmounfortunately as a company we have to go to lowest common denominator
mizmounfortunately that's java...
mizmohtml 5 and web dl support
mizmowill start shipping some of that too
mizmobut still what we've thought about... not a liability issue, just a mitigation issue
mizmoso if im dependent on ... works really good is gtk+ for java
mizmoand then for java, then every distro is going to just ... take patches from openjdk and push it out
mizmoit may break my app
mizmobut more importantly
mizmothere may be a liability in that that i have to assess
mizmoso we break the rules we have our own version of gdk
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mizmojdk
mizmokind of have to play with a lot of different variables
mizmogot to try to cut down the number of variables
mizmo<peter ?>
sgallaghyes
mizmoinitially eeverything was a giant bundle
mizmonow things you see on android
mizmogoogle apps web api
mizmoeverything using google maps
mizmoit's ...
mizmoit's not like... clearly defined boundary of platform api
sgallagh<nick>
mizmoplatform api... huge set of things
flock-ectr-1075 minutes
mizmoi ran rhel... for 6 months
mizmoand.. the thing that finally broke me and sent me back to fedora
mizmowas trying to run inkscape
mizmorhel has a version of inkscape, but it's ancient and awful
mizmoit's an application
mizmoso.. .
mizmoi run inkscape in fedora
mizmoone example
mizmothat's the thing, that should be in its own silo
mizmo<subhendu>
mizmoas fedora gets bigger and bigger
mizmoevreything moves at a diff pace
mizmono way to look at, what is the stable core
mizmowhat are the apis
mizmowhat ar ethe things osmebody should look at
mizmosomebody complains about, this isn't the latest software on fedora
mizmothat's the 1%... why isnt it upgraded
mizmo<nick>
mizmosql not upgraded?
mizmofedora moves too fast, ... fedora.. ?
mizmo<?>
sgallagh<sgallagh> Fedora moves to fast and Fedora moves too slowly
mizmoat the end of the day just to figure out on backend so customer / developer / end user has set of capabilities , but has to be transaprent
mizmoso i can hav ethe choice
mizmoall the core pkgs i need
sgallagh<local, name currently unknown (badge hidden)>
mizmobut also, if i dont have it, i have the ability to
mizmosomething os, third party repo, having to look at the pile and install and manage separately
mizmothere has to be a middle place in between
mizmoother than always bleeding edge
mizmoopen shift an interesting way to solve that
mizmocut down to the atomic level
mizmobut all the govt custs, we're just getting to the point that we're comf pushing out virt containers
mizmogetting to atomic level will be another two years out
mizmobc there are so many security issues
mizmoeg java system
mizmomodule per year... hasn't taken off on very small abackend services
mizmoput in a central... job of a whole os stack
mizmowant to make as transparent and easy as possible
mizmoto help ppl adopt
mizmowould love for you to mak eit simple for us to make an app realatively cheap to build and to manage
mizmoto spend more time with our devels on building more features
mizmowe're ok with taking responsibility
mizmodoing biz with govt...
mizmo<subhendu?>
mizmosomewhere we need fedora to say
sgallaghyes
mizmohere are the guidelines for what you should do
mizmoto build on top of edora
mizmothat needs to be explicit
mizmonot sometihng ppl would assume
mizmo<? langdon?> microsoft always worked this way
sgallagh<langdon>
mizmomicrosoft core os... they even...
mizmofor a while were trying to get down... to have a core version of windows
mizmo<nick ?>
sgallagh<pjones previously> Video game consoles as examples of stable platform
mizmoactual example of it, combination of windows...
mizmoaccess point
sgallaghwindows + Steam
mizmovendor gave it, just... ?? platform
mizmobasically a platform provider giving a bunch of rules, this is what you must do to participate in platfofrm
mizmobut ultimately the responsibliity for that content is on you
sgallagh<langdon>
flock-ectr-1075 more minutes
sgallaghScope is the problem
flock-ectr-107(again :) )
mizmothe problem, 10 years ago
sgallaghNumber out of a hat, ten years ago that scope was significantly smaller
sgallaghSteam, Android: small
mizmoprovidig the platform... it's always a fine line right off the bat, where is the edge
mizmohow much is the platform, how much is the app
sgallaghAlways a fine line off the bat of "wheere's the edge?":
mizmotoo many ppl talking at once
sgallaghyeah
mizmoandroid tablet... pci can run anything on it?
mizmo<subhendu>
sgallagh<pjones> No one picks it up and thinks of it as a general-purpose PC
mizmoif we look at where we want to take fedora for the future
mizmodifferent archicterues
flock-ectr-107I would move the cam at them but that'd be so much permission trouble
mizmothat's tomorrow
mizmodesign decisions
mizmoinside fedora
mizmoand then how do we communicate
mizmoflock-ectr-107, it's all good :)
mizmowhat is the name of the talk you guys are looking for
sgallaghBuild-system
sgallaghaka COPRs
sgallaghOriginally was going to be given by Seth
mizmoseen a couple of our customers go out and talk to isps
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mizmolook for custom software for that
mizmosoftware product upgrades
mizmoa lot of companies share their app infra across a large number of hosts
mizmothats why when we start building software collections
mizmonfs mount it
mizmodev and distro env is shared out
mizmoepel is part of the world we want fedora to define
mizmohow do you participate from inside or on top
mizmotoday epel is treated as if its part of fedora
mizmobut its really for rhel
mizmoso the rules make sense?
mizmo<?>
mizmoone of the probs, there needs to be a repo
mizmoin some way that is less messy than a brand new ?
mizmotoo many talking at once
mizmo<applause>
flock-ectr-107we are out of here
mizmothanks
mizmo:)

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