Meeting of 2006-12-21
*** Time shown in EST
15:11 <@mmcgrath> We ready to get started?
15:12 * jcollie is if you are
15:12 <@mmcgrath> Alllrighty, role call!
15:12 <@mmcgrath> who's here.
15:13 < jcollie> /me
15:13 <@mmcgrath> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule as always
15:13 * abadger1999 answers the call
15:13 * kim0 is here
15:13 < teknofile> I
15:13 * warren here
15:14 <@mmcgrath> Item 1, the Packaging Database. Anyone have anything to discuss regarding it?
15:14 < abadger1999> Not much.
15:14 < abadger1999> I have an updated schema that's got a few ugly spots.
15:15 <@mmcgrath> No worries.
15:15 < abadger1999> I'll send it to the list and hopefully someone else can make some suggestions.
15:15 -!- ssrat2 [email@example.com] has joined #fedora-admin
15:15 <@mmcgrath> Regarding VCS:
15:15 < warren> abadger1999, I've been trying to lean on our folks to release the brew schema sooner, so it can be part of an elegant PDB design earlier.
15:15 < warren> instead of glued on
15:15 <@mmcgrath> We got the SCM Sig 'started' the first email went out today. There's 9 people on the list.
15:15 < abadger1999> warren: Yay :-)
15:15 < warren> mmcgrath, where?
15:15 <@mmcgrath> abadger1999: do you and f13 want to keep leading the way with this? I've just kind of been doing organization up to this point.
15:16 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: Cool. I think we need to use a public ml for that.
15:16 <@mmcgrath> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SCMSig
15:16 < abadger1999> Instead of just private mail.
15:16 <@mmcgrath> a dedicated public ml or devel or something?
15:16 <@mmcgrath> Doesn't matter to me, I was just going to let the group decide where to go with it.
15:16 < abadger1999> Doesn't matter to me either.
15:17 < abadger1999> Maybe announce on -maintainers and discuss on -devel?
15:17 < abadger1999> (initial announcement)
15:17 <@mmcgrath> Could be.
15:17 < warren> brb
15:17 <@mmcgrath> I'm fine with either method there.
15:17 <@mmcgrath> iWolf: ping?
15:18 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: I'll try to redirect email to -devel for that, then.
15:18 <@mmcgrath> k, we'll skip the db and upgrade stuff for now.
15:18 <@mmcgrath> <nod>
15:19 <@mmcgrath> luke's gone
15:19 <@mmcgrath> warren: do you think its time to move 'xen' to the done category or at least add which boxes we'll be converting next?
15:19 * mmcgrath notices the brb. We'll get back to that.
15:20 <@mmcgrath> dgilmore: ping
15:20 <@mmcgrath> k, skip.
15:20 <@mmcgrath> Configuration management. Have people been following the discussions on the list?
15:21 < abadger1999> Yes.
15:21 < abadger1999> lutter has some good points.
15:22 * warren back
15:22 < warren> mmcgrath, done, it is just a regular thing we do now
15:22 <@mmcgrath> warren: Should we activly convert what we have or just build it that way as new systems come about?
15:22 * mmcgrath votes for alter as new systems come.
15:23 < warren> mmcgrath, alter as new systems come, or when reinstalls are necessary.
15:23 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: If you're talking about xen then I agree.
15:23 <@mmcgrath> k, we'll leave it at that then
15:23 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: config management
15:23 <@mmcgrath> :-)
15:23 < jcollie> ooo
15:23 <@mmcgrath> So I've been following it back and forth, what do you guys think?
15:24 <@mmcgrath> I mean, at this point I'd really like to see a matrix
15:24 < jcollie> i've started one
15:24 <@mmcgrath> of what we want, what the things do and maybe how well they do them.
15:24 < warren> Did we implement glump on one machine to see how it goes?
15:24 < abadger1999> I think lutter has some good points -- if we actually want the features that puppet/bcfg2 provides then we should go with that.
15:24 <@mmcgrath> After all, this is a fairly small network at present, we're not talking about 10,000 machines.
15:24 < abadger1999> If we don't then glump could be fine.
15:25 < jcollie> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeffOllie/ConfigurationManagement
15:25 <@mmcgrath> warren: not yet.
15:25 <@mmcgrath> We should though, I just haven't had time to get to it :-/
15:25 < jcollie> i think that the strength of glump (nice and simple) is also its weakness
15:26 <@mmcgrath> I also like the idea of sponsering a project like that and making it better.
15:26 <@mmcgrath> AFAIK right now its only used at duke.
15:26 < jcollie> i think that we'll want to do things with a config mgmt system which will mean serving up custom scripts with glump
15:27 < abadger1999> jcollie: I agree. It may turn out that we end up doing a lot more work to write the scripts in glump than just learning the syntax of one of the other projects.
15:27 < jcollie> plus, if you're writing a script are you going to take the time to do error checking etc
15:27 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: That's a minus as well, though. Many people use and enhance puppet while it would just be Duke and us working on glump.
15:27 <@mmcgrath> has anyone here used cfengine or puppet in any sort of deployment?
15:28 < jcollie> no i've never used any of them
15:28 <@mmcgrath> me either.
15:28 < jcollie> although i'm about to roll out something using glump
15:29 <@mmcgrath> We'll have to revisit this when we get more experience in them. Anyone want to volunteer to evaluate puppet or cfengine?
15:29 <@mmcgrath> If not I'll flood the list with a request.
15:29 < abadger1999> Wonder if we could get mricon to write something up for us?
15:30 < abadger1999> He worked at Duke so he probably had exposure to glump.
15:30 <@mmcgrath> It'd be nice to get someone up to speed enough to write a bit about it and be able to answer our questions.
15:30 < abadger1999> And his blog sounded like he used cfengine and was evaluating bcfg2
15:30 < jcollie> yeah, from his blog entry it looks like he's working in that space
15:30 <@mmcgrath> abadger1999: worksforme, could you send him a note?
15:30 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: I'll do that.
15:31 < warren> what is mricon doing these days?
15:31 <@mmcgrath> K, we'll move on until we hear back.
15:31 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: Metrics / Hardware reporting tool
15:32 <@mmcgrath> So the board meeting was yesterday and it seemed they wanted me to keep moving foward on metrics.
15:32 <@mmcgrath> I'm working on a hardware reporting tool based off the RHEL5 rhn-client-tools (GPL).
15:32 -!- ssrat [firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:32 <@mmcgrath> I'm going to write a server backend in turbogears (already started). I'm hoping to have something working-ish late january.
15:32 < abadger1999> warren: I think he's doing web programming and sys admin stuff at a University in Montreal.
15:33 < warren> mmcgrath, opt-in and store stuff in a database at fp.o?
15:33 <@mmcgrath> warren: yeah, I'm hoping for it to be non fedora specific so that A) others could use it and B) we could, in theory, get stuff from other distros.
15:33 <@mmcgrath> I could see something not working in fedora but having it work in Debian for example, this way they could send us a profile and we could examine it.
15:34 < warren> sounds ambitious
15:34 < warren> mmcgrath, sounds like an ideal hosted.fp.o project =)
15:34 <@mmcgrath> I'm hoping to get something like this - http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html
15:34 <@mmcgrath> ;-)
15:34 <@mmcgrath> f13 showed that to me. I like the format.
15:35 <@mmcgrath> Anywho, thats that on metrics for now. Once the framework is done I'll be itching for people to test, hack and comment.
15:35 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: Postfix
15:35 <@mmcgrath> whats the word on the new smtp server?
15:35 < warren> Yeah, that's been my problem.
15:35 < warren> I just need to do it.
15:35 < warren> I'm traveling currently
15:36 <@mmcgrath> Ahh, no worries. After all, we do have a working system in place ;-)
15:36 < warren> Has anyone worked on adapting the alias generation stuff for postfix?
15:36 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: Caching Proxies
15:36 <@mmcgrath> warren: isn't the format the same? the aliases file?
15:36 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: postfix
15:36 < warren> mmcgrath, almost
15:36 < f13> oh crap, forgot meeting.
15:36 < warren> mmcgrath, I'll figure it out...
15:36 <@mmcgrath> f13: no worries
15:36 <@mmcgrath> k
15:36 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: Caching Proxies
15:37 <@mmcgrath> kim0: your time to shine, you around?
15:37 < kim0> :) around ..
15:37 < kim0> testing next saturaday 10:00 am GMT
15:37 <@mmcgrath> What numbers will we be getting after the test?
15:38 < kim0> I'm storing all ab out .. but the interesting ones should be
15:38 < kim0> requests / sec
15:38 < kim0> and time per request ..
15:38 < kim0> plus .. memory usage which will determine the max number of clients we can serve
15:38 < kim0> memory/apache process basically
15:38 < kim0> also, comparing how squid is helpful
15:39 < kim0> one test with squid, and one without
15:39 <@mmcgrath> wonderful.
15:39 < kim0> that's it
15:39 < f13>
15:39 < abadger1999> That'll be good.
15:39 < abadger1999> kim0: Did we upgrade to the moin that works well with squid?
15:39 <@mmcgrath> Yep, and we'll probably plan on having at least a few more tests depending on how these results go.
15:40 < kim0> abadger1999: paulo did that. The new version is up
15:40 * kim0 agrees, we'll probably need more tests later
15:40 <@mmcgrath> kim0 will you be able to test the old version with the new version?
15:40 <@mmcgrath> and get those numbers as well?
15:40 < kim0> umm... to be meaningful, they'd have to be on the same machine ?!
15:41 < kim0> dont think that's possible, right
15:41 <@mmcgrath> don't we have the original version on one of the ap servers? Isn't that how we upgraded :-D?
15:42 < kim0> we could connect to that as well ... analyse what we get later
15:42 <@mmcgrath> sounds good
15:42 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: Open Floor.
15:43 <@mmcgrath> Anyone have anything else to discuss?
15:43 * f13 just thought of a great whitepaper
15:43 < f13> using microsoft virus zombies for site performance testing
15:43 < kim0> lol @ that
15:43 < f13> what better way to get a wide range of systems in various locations to hit your site at a coordinated time?
15:43 < abadger1999> hah -- DOS aimed at your own site :-)
15:43 <@mmcgrath> No! Bad f13!
15:43 <@mmcgrath> :-)
15:43 < jcollie> f13: get a link posted to your site on slashdot
15:43 * mmcgrath shakes finger
15:44 < f13> just like paying somebody to attempt to break into your facility/network.
15:44 < teknofile> jcollie: i was just thinking that same thing
15:44 < ssrat2> Need someone with cfengine expertise?
15:45 <@mmcgrath> ssrat2: yeah, we could use a write up and a matrix comparing it to puppet and glump.
15:45 < skvidal> hi
15:45 < skvidal> sorry I wasn't around
15:45 < ssrat2> Never heard of glump till you mentioned it (researching as we talk)
15:45 < poelcat> Not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this question, but have we ever considered "dogfooding" the next release of FC on the fedoraproject infrastructure?
15:46 < f13> poelcat: bad idea :/
15:46 < ssrat2> I've heard of puppet and examined some, but not anything in depth.
15:46 < ssrat2> I do know Ruby well, though...
15:46 < f13> poelcat: we don't exactly have enough manpower to fix the kind of problems we'd run into doing that.
15:46 < warren> poelcat, so if the fp.o infrastructure survives the release announcement, then the release is good? =)
15:47 < ssrat2> I've done doc editing and writing with the cfengine project in the past...
15:47 < poelcat> warren: :) ... just thinking of the "real world pounding" it would get :)
15:47 <@mmcgrath> ssrat2: if you could, go ahead and send a review of what you think of it pros and cons (both) to the fedora-infrastructure-list
15:48 < ssrat2> I plan to join ASAP (normally I lurk for a while, but I just had to offer....)
15:48 < poelcat> f13: or maybe do a trial run for a day(s) with backup servers. if something is really hosed switch back to known good
15:48 <@mmcgrath> no worries, your input will be nice.
15:49 <@mmcgrath> warren: FYI regarding the SCM SIG, I've created a #fedora-scm channel for discussion when we finally start talking about it.
15:49 <@mmcgrath> Anyone have anything else to discuss before we close the meeting?
15:49 < warren> I'm confused as to why it took so long to create the SCM-SIG
15:49 < f13> poelcat: reinstalling and porting services every 6 months is !fun nor productive.
15:49 < warren> fedora summit said FPB would create it immediately
15:49 < f13> warren: wait loop.
15:50 < f13> warren: I thought Greg/Max was going to do it, Greg/Max thought somebody else was going to do it.
15:50 <@mmcgrath> warren: it just never happened I guess. Its there now though.
15:50 <@mmcgrath> f13: heh, so it ended up being me :-D
15:50 < f13> warren: also, if its a backburner item, there are FAR more important things to be worked on.
15:50 <@mmcgrath> f13: I asked abadger1999 earlier. do you guys want to keep being lead on that? I'm just kind of playing the coordinator role.
15:51 < ssrat2> mmcgrath: anyone used arch (for SCM)?
15:51 < f13> mmcgrath: sure, we can keep leading it.
15:51 <@mmcgrath> f13: awesome, thanks. we should put a timeline together, how long till test1
15:51 <@mmcgrath> ?
15:52 < poelcat> f13: so from your perspective... not enough ROI to justify doing it? I was thinking we would might learn some good things.
15:53 < f13> mmcgrath: I think a generic 'after F7 goes out the door, work in earnest will happen on this project' kind of note.
15:53 < abadger1999> ssrat2: Bad idea :-)
15:53 <@mmcgrath> So we're not planning on getting this done by FC7?
15:53 < f13> poelcat: correct. The I is far too high. Not that the R wouldn't be nice.
15:54 < f13> mmcgrath: no, the board determined that this was not necessary to accomplish the merger, it just makes some things easier down the road.
15:54 < poelcat> f13: fair enough
15:54 <@mmcgrath> Sounds good then.
15:54 <@mmcgrath> That takes a bit of a load off actually.
15:55 <@mmcgrath> Alllrighty, anyone have anything else?
15:55 * mmcgrath topic About to close --------
15:55 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-admin to: About to close --------
15:55 < abadger1999> ssrat2: There are several alternatives to arch these days that have most of the nice features it had but have less of the UI warts.
15:56 * mmcgrath will Close in 30
15:56 <@mmcgrath> 20
15:56 <@mmcgrath> 10
15:56 <@mmcgrath> 5
15:56 <@mmcgrath> ---------------------- MEETING END------------------------