Meeting:Docs IRC log 20070814

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<h1>/tmp/IRCLog_fedora-docs_2007-08-14.log</h1>
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<tr id="t09:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"><meeting></td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:03" class="time">09:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">greetings all after a hiatus :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:03" class="time">09:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">JohnBabich</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:04" class="time">09:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">KarstenWade ?!?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:04" class="time">09:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:05" class="time">09:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">hmm, well, that's somewhat relevant</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:05" class="time">09:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wow, i'm a bit stimied</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:07" class="time">09:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm literally sitting here trying to figure out what to type</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:08" class="time">09:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it's not that there isn't anything to discuss, it's that ... well I'm not sure these meetings have much relevancy anymore</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:09" class="time">09:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm having a massive circle of doubt around Fedora Docs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:10" class="time">09:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, IMO we don't have anything to meet about; </td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:10" class="time">09:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we don't have enough people for a discussion, nothing to decide, and a large apathy:resource ratio to deal with</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- stickster is now known as stickster_work</td><td><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so I'm going to leave things open here for a few minutes to see if anything has the desire to discuss this right now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">quaid: We have a great deal to discuss - how to motivate people, for one</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster_work is taking lunch here at desk, back in 5 min. to discuss/bitch/whine/whatever</td><td><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">otherwise, i think we need a serious on-list discussion</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:11" class="time">09:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: I'm getting to be unusually pessimistic about that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:12" class="time">09:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">as in, how many times can we beat on that horse?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:12" class="time">09:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">quaid: I've been here for a year - a very good year and I'm still motivated - but currently distracted by chaos at work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:12" class="time">09:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">quaid: I see good things happening in the toolchain and in translation</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:13" class="time">09:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Fedora 7 threw us a curve ball with the open-endedness of the application list</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:13" class="time">09:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, we are more ambitiuous than we have resources for</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:14" class="time">09:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, I'm a bit worried about that as well</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:14" class="time">09:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I feel disapppointed, I gues</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:16" class="time">09:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we've done a great job of building a scalable project</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:16" class="time">09:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">it's probably OK with Beats/relnotes before each release -- but do we have the resources to follow the wiki -> docbook -> CVS/etc -> publishing for every doc?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:16" class="time">09:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but not enough have showed up, and it's all about "the barriers" and "red tape"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:17" class="time">09:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: the problem is, we get ~2 people _ever_ who wnt to work in XML</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:17" class="time">09:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, exactly.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:17" class="time">09:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we're adding Plone to that -- plone => docbook => CVS etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:17" class="time">09:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">The problem is not the tools, it's the dedication of people to actually get the job done.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:17" class="time">09:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">does Docs just attract the wrong kind of people?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:18" class="time">09:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Although there's an argument to be made that the number of tools available makes for fragmenting the workload</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:18" class="time">09:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">those looking for something easier than we present?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:18" class="time">09:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I don't know how it gets easier when you have people willing to hold hands</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:19" class="time">09:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, I think it's also the tools -- people might be more willing to "just" create a howto/doc in a wiki page</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:19" class="time">09:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: We don't want people to do that, though.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:19" class="time">09:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">We want them to agree to *maintain* it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:19" class="time">09:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">That's a different level of work commitment.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:19" class="time">09:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, why not? better nothing than something? We could eventually put a warning on top "this is deprecated" in the worst case</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">By the way, have you guys started playing with Plone more yet?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: That's just multiplying the problem we have now by X number of quasi-contributors</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, for example, the L10n project would like to update the TQSG with the new stuff, but nobody is doing it because it's too hard</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I'm not completely clear on you plan on using it for, I'm just a bit curious.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: Actually, noriko is working on that now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I was helping her on Friday night</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:21" class="time">09:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">ricky: By "you guys," do you mean the ~2.5 of us that are working actively in this project?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:21" class="time">09:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Oh..  I guess?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:21" class="time">09:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, what I want to say is that there is a level of committment various people are willing to take, and docbook/cvs might be too high a step for most of them to take.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:22" class="time">09:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: two parts</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:22" class="time">09:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: to serve fedoraproject.org itself, which is out of the Docs scope but since daMaestro is setting up one instance ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:23" class="time">09:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: If we're going to raise a barn together, pretty much everyone needs to commit to hammering, sawing, and hefting.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:23" class="time">09:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: People who only want to count timbers and fetch water, you only need a couple of 'em ;-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:23" class="time">09:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: for docs.fp.o, Jon is adding a custom workflow that includes outputting to XML into CVS for canonical source and translation.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:23" class="time">09:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: I think we have made the Wiki quite available for that level</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:23" class="time">09:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">OK.  I'm not sure about status of fp.o itself at the moment.  Hopefully, there will be a bit more discussion before that happens.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and people do that for other parts of the wiki, I presume; lightweight documentation</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Hmm..  sounds interesting.  So the final docs would still be generated from DocBook?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, so if we don't have the people, then we might need to rethink if we want to raise a barn or just a plain-ol bench under an oak tree. :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: that's true, yet ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I'm not interested in bench-building, personally.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:24" class="time">09:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I can do that on my own.  I'd rather raise a barn with a dozen other people.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:25" class="time">09:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">With the wiki, anyone can "build a bench."  Done.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:25" class="time">09:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">If there's going to be a FDP, we need to commit to barn-building.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">that's the point</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">So basically, people don't want to edit docbook sources directly/translate with po files?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster_work, personally, I think our docs infrastructure is already a shiny building I'm proud of. :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">of we are only going to get big enough to build benches, we should dissolve all the hard work and be a SIG</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:26" class="time">09:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">ricky: Well, we have plenty of people translating, no problems there as far as I can tell</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ricky, translators want to work with PO files, yes. Not with Docbook.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: people want to translate PO files</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">heh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">That's a great community, no doubt</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">So the thing is that people don't like docbook?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: the idea for a while has been to enable multiple $editors with one powerful source in the middle (DocBook)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">And the community of writers != community of l10n'ers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:27" class="time">09:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Aha.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we're actually quite good with that; a guide can be worked entirely in the wiki and output at the end with just a few hours of clean-up</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Heh.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">now we're adding Plone + Kupu to that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't think Docbook is the problem at all</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I also don't think it is really the "red tape"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:28" class="time">09:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think it is that we are asking people to be real contributors, not toss-over-the-wallers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:29" class="time">09:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and we have the same problem all other tech projects have around docs; "we need that" and "someone else has to do it, i don't have time"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:29" class="time">09:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, if we enable people to write docs and maintain them *on the wiki*, do you think the problem won't be solved?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:30" class="time">09:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">that's right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:30" class="time">09:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't see where we have told anyone they cannot maintain a doc on the Wiki</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">in fact, that's what the Docs/ space is for</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">The wiki can accumulate deprecated docs as fast as (or faster than) any other publishing platform</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, I think that people won't have a problem maintaining something on the wiki. I'd maintain the TQSG if it was on the wiki to be honest.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we just said, if you want it translated ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, my thought is to turn the wiki into a 100% community docs place</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:31" class="time">09:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and the question then is ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">^Agreed.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">should Docs feel responsible for keeping it clean.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: but how would you get the TQSG translated?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">^ +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">do we want 2 more l10n systems (Wiki, Plone)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">:-P</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:32" class="time">09:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Not necessarily responsible/high-priority, but it'd be nice :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:33" class="time">09:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, I'd prefer to first worry on how to have up2date content and *then* for l10n</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:33" class="time">09:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">My impression was that l10n was handled after the conversion to docbook (following the normal translation team workflow).</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:33" class="time">09:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:33" class="time">09:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but if a doc is maintained on the wiki ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">ricky: The point is that wiki changes happen all the time and every change to a converted doc has to be manually ported in</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">even if it were automated, it's still hard to track</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">people don't apply any level of rigor to Wiki work like they do to other work, IME</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">+2</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we would have to layer a whole CMS-like system -- </td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Does having docs maintained on the wiki somehow increase contributor drive?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">My thinking was to have a wiki space where wiki pages are of high-quality in terms of Documentation. They have passed editorial control, they are maintained (names appearing) and if not, there is a warning about it. Lightweight docs as you said.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:34" class="time">09:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Docs/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">been there for a long time :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">From what I've seen, most projects just have docbook in an SCM, right?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: for example ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">We had an initial influx of work for wiki-based docs, but other than the release notes, people have not really done a huge amount of follow-through on drafts</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: take the Mozilla Developer site; they changed from XML in CVS to a Wiki</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:35" class="time">09:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: this was a highly technical group, but they never did their XML work; but in the Wiki, they saw contributions from the community increase 10x</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:36" class="time">09:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Aha.  So it does help a lot.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:36" class="time">09:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so experience shows that people will edit a Wiki, but not maintain there as much</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:36" class="time">09:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">there needs to be people who dedicate themselves to doing janitorial work.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and while that could be this project, to be honest ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it's not the interest of the active participants</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">for the most part.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Isn't basic cleanup really easy for bystanders to do on the wiki?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">maybe we should advertise for Wiki editors?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, right. We could help people "helping themselves" in maintaining.. Deprecation warnings, categories for obsolete docs, etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">It will be once we get moin 1.6 and the click through CLA in place, right quaid ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: presuming they know how to write and follow a style guide, yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:37" class="time">09:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster_work: well, easier to get people accounts, yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:38" class="time">09:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">quaid: That's a HUGE presumption too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:38" class="time">09:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">HUGE</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:38" class="time">09:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think after we have Plone up to be a real CMS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:39" class="time">09:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we need to reinvent the Wiki</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:39" class="time">09:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and do some announcemenets around that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:39" class="time">09:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I'm personally somewhat afraid of Plone.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:39" class="time">09:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">which part?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:39" class="time">09:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: the reason for Plone is pretty simple</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:40" class="time">09:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: the process to go from DocBook XML to published pages, no matter how we do it, if it is manual, we'll have about 2.5 people who know how to publish</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:40" class="time">09:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Well, as a frontend to editing Docbook, I'm not too concerned.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:40" class="time">09:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Plone let's us put that in the hands of content area owners, and to automate the XML build so normal folks can edit/publish</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:40" class="time">09:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Best features of both wiki + docbook</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:41" class="time">09:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Easy writing for people who just want to write</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:41" class="time">09:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Toolchain options for other publishing (PDF, RPM, etc.)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:41" class="time">09:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">For anything something more complex (like a full-blown CMS), it can have a steep learning curve.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:42" class="time">09:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, it's a new Web app to learn</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:42" class="time">09:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ricky, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:42" class="time">09:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but you can create documents and edit them with a better WYSIWYG editor than a Wiki is</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:42" class="time">09:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">The GNOME web team has actually been trying to move over to a Plone site..  and it's been painful so far (I saw participation/activity drop down *a lot*).</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:43" class="time">09:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">But as I said, for an editing interface, it might work well :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:43" class="time">09:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, in terms of just Docs ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:44" class="time">09:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">that is, for the Websites side, you see the benefits, right?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:44" class="time">09:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I guess for Docs, I can't see how participation can get much lower.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:44" class="time">09:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">What do you mean about the websites side?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:45" class="time">09:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">what I mean is, the serving of fedorproject.org front pages</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:46" class="time">09:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">v. having the Wiki be the front page</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:46" class="time">09:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">or having us manually create and maintain pages, or hack up SSIs or whatever</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:46" class="time">09:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Well, that's where I've seen a lot of pain in other projects.  I'm currently researching any other possibilities.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:47" class="time">09:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">right now, if you want to delegate some set of pages to a new Websites person, they need a lot experience and access</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:47" class="time">09:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">setup pain?  or maintenance pain?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:47" class="time">09:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">If you want to maintain clean markup and use kupu, you must know HTML decently (from what I've seen).</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:47" class="time">09:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I guess the usage of Plone for the front-page was an older idea that is just included with our GSoC work; it can be decoupled, though.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:47" class="time">09:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">hmm, I haven't edited extensively in Kupu, it just looked like straight XHTML editing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:48" class="time">09:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I don't want to rant on against Plone, but templating for it and customizing page layouts hasn't been easy for me.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:48" class="time">09:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">IMHO, the wiki presentation quality is much improved...thanks to Plone</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:48" class="time">09:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: sorry, where?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That's part of the communications process</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">quaid: the main page</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Well, maybe it can be modified to remove some of the presentational tags/attributes that it produces.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: well, beat on daMaestro, definitely don't let him get away with an unmaintainable hack for the front-page stuff</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: main page isn't Plone</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">educate me...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">HI ALL!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: it's just plain HTML + CSS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:49" class="time">09:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: howdy</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">ahhhh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ricky: templating plone is not that hard</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser was suffering under a delusion</td><td><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I don't want to start a war over this, honestly, but I'm hoping to open up the options a bit.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: oh, hardly a war</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, do you think plone will increase the number of contributors to docs?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:50" class="time">09:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">EvilBob: Well, I'm admittedly somewhat pedantic about having "perfectly" clean markup, etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:51" class="time">09:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ricky: a foregone decision doesn't mean it's locked in stone</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:51" class="time">09:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ricky: <a href="http://fedorasolved.org/">http://fedorasolved.org/</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:51" class="time">09:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: yes, in a few ways</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:51" class="time">09:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: number of people who can edit/publish can increase easily</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:51" class="time">09:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ricky: make it work first clean it up later</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:52" class="time">09:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: if people can write with a Web UI editor and have that go directly into l10n and publishing without leaving the Web UI, I reckon that will help</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:52" class="time">09:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ricky: there are many sites out there running plone that most people can not tell are running plone from the outside</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:53" class="time">09:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">EvilBob: Really?  I'd be really interested to hear about some, actually.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:54" class="time">09:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:54"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser has to cut and run</td><td><a href="#t09:54" class="time">09:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ricky: sure we can hook up later</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:54" class="time">09:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">EvilBob: OK, feel free to PM me if you ever want, or you know where to find me on IRC :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:55" class="time">09:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:55"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.24.83]  has quit ["Leaving"] </td><td><a href="#t09:55" class="time">09:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: esp. if Plone is additive rather than replacing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:55" class="time">09:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, agreed.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:56" class="time">09:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">quaid, if we do manage to have this infrastructure, then it would be great.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:56" class="time">09:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> kanarip</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">glezos, especially when it doesn't take a year or so to save my doc updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:56" class="time">09:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">heh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:56" class="time">09:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">wiki pains</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:56" class="time">09:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster_work wonders if his planned vfudcon How to Make Docs in CVS is simply a waste of time</td><td><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><td class="action" colspan="2">* ricky will probably listen to it :)</td><td><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">stickster_work: no</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">not a waste</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">we still need the skills</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">IMO anyhow</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">Q: do we know of any project (other than wikipedia), that is maintaining high-quality docs on a wiki?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:57" class="time">09:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I think he mentioned developer.mozilla.org</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:58" class="time">09:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">glezos: a wiki != moinmoin</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:58" class="time">09:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t09:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yes, developer.mozilla.org is one</td><td class="time"><a href="#t09:59" class="time">09:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Anyway, I'm off to lunch now- thanks for taking the time to explain everything to me.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:00" class="time">10:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">(I'll try to somewhat keep up with the discussion later, hopefully)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:00" class="time">10:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we should wrap up</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:00" class="time">10:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">anyone want to add anything more here?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:00" class="time">10:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">otherwise, we'll continue on-list :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:01" class="time">10:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm ok.. sorry if I sounded too negative -- m just trying to think if we are</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">doing something that could be improved by re-engineering some of our processes.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">glezos: there has been talk that we are doing more than moinmoin was designed for</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">glezos: You're not offbase... it's just hard to see where the improvement factors come in when there isn't a sufficient sample of where our time is spent on current processes, because there are so few people using them to start with</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">glezos: if that is what you are talking about</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> glezos</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">agreed :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok then ...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">IMO having to wait for page saves in excess of a minute is ridiculous</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I don't know where the bottle neck is in that process</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it's a design thing, and there has been research into it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Infra has one person who did some tests, etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> vpv</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">EvilBob: afaik moin goes through all the user accounts to find which ones to notify, rayvd has been working on it, but I haven't heard from him in a while</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yeah I know others know about it and have looked at it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">EvilBob: Every time you save, moin has to iterate over every user file and every regex in that file to see if that user should be notified about that page.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mmcgrath: that is what I thought</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">we even deleted a bunch of users back in the day (we deleted about 7000 IIRC) and that helpped but it only masked the problem.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> stickster_work</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">design--</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:10"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath bbiab</td><td><a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Woah.  7000.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yeah, imagine if all those people could edit, scary :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">moinmoin was chosen because it met the software requirements IIRC, using python was one of them</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">scalability was not high enough on the requirements list I guess</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, no one knew back then</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and we may be a rather big user of Moin compared to ohers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">IIRC we're the biggest</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">what works great for a dozen users may not work well for a dozen gross</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Fedora contributors -- more than a gross!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yeah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Still >7000, it seems.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Or maybe not.. hmm..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I do hope that plone on zope will scale to meet the needs of our contributor and user bases</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">we really don't know until we start throwing stuff at it I guess</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I have to get back to work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">BBL</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> ricky</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Well, for the docs team, step one would be to get some highly available Plone experts around.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> quaid</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"></meeting></td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
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