Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080305

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<h1>IRC Log of FDSCo Meeting - 05 March 2008</h1>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><meeting></td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*jsmith is here (Jared Smith)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><-- Karsten Wade</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">John Babich</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144"><-- Bob Jensen</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo meeting - Agenda <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda</a> --- Current Topic ::: Acccess to wiki and Docs content; what belongs there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685"><-- BobJensen</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster is Paul and he is here too</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster can't keep up with all the usage patterns for meeting roll call :-D</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">first point, I'm not caught up on last week -- I didn't see a summary</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we have a new vice chair</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">but the first agenda item seems new and relevant</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">We elected a vice chair</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">great! who?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">:D</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jmbuser</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">jmbuser</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid voted by proxy, hopefully</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: congrats, and more so, thanks!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nope we did not need your vote</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">The guy who didn't do a summary</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">quaid: We had you down for voting for yourself</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">quaidL Thanks</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid finishes the old business before moving on ... sorry for the topic delay</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">4 of the 5 present voted</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: do you want to try to tackle a summary this week?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">quaid: Yes, I will</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">it is in fact useful for getting your hands around what is going on, and also I like it because "whoever writes history, defines history" :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jmbuser: Also it's pretty important for establishing action items. Who owns an item? That way we can point fingers later.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">word</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">_1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, so back to the /topic</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jmbuser: Summarizing as we go, if you can't tell, speak up and we'll make sure it's assigned</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster shuts up</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">stickster: ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">as it happens we were discussing the CLA and wiki mess over on #fedora-admin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">but it is the clear goal to enable people</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">to "sign up, agree, and edit" in one go</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">stickster is on record</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so we are looking at a new era, where e.g. #fedora helpers will be encouraged to use the wiki, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">what role does Fedora Docs have in that?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid knows his opinion but ... what is yours?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I summarized my opinions in my contribution to the wiki gardening page</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*couf here finally</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">moin couf</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Briefly, the wiki is good for collaboraive, store-and-forward writing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Things like draft docs and the Fedora Weekly news....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*EvilBob 's Day Care is open today... kinda busy</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">including capturing Release Notes beats</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">one challenge I see is the WikiEditing is crucial to understand, and freaking LONG</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">quaid: The page itself?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and another is picking and enforcing namespace conventions</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">should people put stuff under Docs/?  or under Content_Area/?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: yes</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*jpuellma (n=jpuellma@70.230.182.0) has left #fedora-meeting ("Cheese it!")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">quaid: good question</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">couf</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">we might want to create a "short article", draft real docs, faqs, ... sections in Docs/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we were just talking about that the other day</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">couf</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">or try to move documenation over to docs.fp.o in a wiki ;-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: Do you mean, where should people put random information that doesn't fit into a project?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: sort of</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: project info == people who work on a project use that</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">content area == all that random useful stuff that isn't for the project workers, but might be about the project subject</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so e.g. Kernel</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">do we have /Kernel == only kernel maintainers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">or is that for "how to do kernel shite"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">or both?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and if it is how-to, should we have all that under Docs/ ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so, what Bob and I discussed the other day was an NVR style of path</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">NVR?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">like a package</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Name version release</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Ah, gotcha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">we had someone ask where the F9 docs are kept, indicating that it's less than clear</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">NVR would help</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Docs/9/Virt/How-To</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster thinks about how ill-suited wiki is to this level of organization, compared to foldering on CMS</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">where is evilbob when I need his rememory! :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: meh, we do what we have to :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: Oh I agree</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Ah, the joys and pains of content management</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">couf</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">stickster: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we don't want these:  Docs/How-To/Virt;</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">If we're using MW for this in the future, let's think ahead to how we can make use of its capabilities to do this.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: did I get that example in the right order?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: but lets not get me barking up that tired old tree again</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*jsmith things we need a completely new paradigm</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">MW = MediaWiki?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: that is where my question started</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">a great mind...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jmbuser: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: how does what we have now translate to MW</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">couf: so this is trying to answer your point; organize by content-type, version, then method of presentation (article, how-to, faq)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: so we started thinking about fixing what we got</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">got</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I hate that word</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">have</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">have</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jinx!</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*fabian_a (n=fabian@84-75-160-95.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: IMO we need more input from mmcgrath and the others about how things will transition</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: That's not really a blocker for organization, though.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Let's think about how we can better categorize the content we have</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">The top-down approach is good for the people having to organize the wiki...and search lets people just find it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: well it is if all pages end up looking like they are in a single directory</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: Nah, the search takes care of a lot of that problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The depth of the structure is irrelevant.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Best of both worlds</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Problem is, moin search sucks.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Moin sucks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">If you know a page title, you can find the page fast.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: No one's making you bark, simmer down ;-D</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we have said that for a long time, it is irrelevant</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">If you know some content, you can find the page if you're willing to wait an eternity.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">MW solves both those problems with a full-text index that actually works.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">yup</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">WIN!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Thn there are always external search engines - make sure the wiki get searched thoroughly by bots</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">s/Thn /Then /</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jmbuser: +1 about the top-down approach; we need to enable an army of wiki watchers to help us out</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">So, we don't need to worry inordinately about calling things by some long hierarchical title like "Releases/12/ProjectFoo/DoingThis/DoingThat"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: so my thought was, lets start sorting, fixing, moving what we have in to some sort of sane dirctory like organization</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and the opposite has just been said ....</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fight!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: is it just my sense of order that is afronted?  Because I think random page names like Fedora12VirtQuickStart sort of suck</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The names suck, but you're thinking of a world where the name matters</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">now in some parts of the wiki because there is not organization there are things duplicated</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and from a management standpoint, how do i know when there are holes in content without some tree to look around</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Categorizing by search fixes all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">and the info is not the same</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">If you can't find it in an FTI, it needs writing. If you find it twice, collate and reduce</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">s/an FTI/a FTI/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">some is better, some is not so good, neither can be obsolited because they are in different areas</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Also, MW will tell you what pages reference other pages.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Another lovely function that Moin doesn't offer.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Well, least not from what I've seen.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">So I can ask MW, "Hey MW, what pages reference Fedora12VirtQuickStart?"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Makes cleaning a lot easier.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">the Packaging and contributing pages of the wiki are a ... mess</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">stickster: good feature</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">and there is some AWESOME content there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: Let's finish the discussion of the organizing vs. not organizing first.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: it is an example</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">By which I mean, I think I'm winning, fight back!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">:-D</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster puts on that cool Star Trek fight music</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">well I don't care</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Well that's no fun then.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">couf?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: so you maintain ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">WHO WILL FACE ME?!?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that namespace does not matter _at_all_?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*couf needs to run, sorry guys</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">stcikster IS Captain Kirk</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">hahaha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Where's SPock?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster is totally just another bum, please feel free to take him down several pegs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM">http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: I say, take a look at wikipedia</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">it can either get organized so people can find stuff or we can go back to the same old same, the wiki sucks we can't find what we need and when we do find something there are 15 pages that say the same thing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Worst Fight Scene Ever</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: YES!!!</td></tr>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: not sure if Wikipedia is a good reference or not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">it is a flat namespace, but I figured that is from necessity</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">if the name space does not matter that is fine, I will shut up about it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">wikipedia is a thousand miles wide and 2 inches deep</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">right, no subject is more important than any other on wikipedia</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">My personal opinion is that no matter what we decide, the law of entropy will get us unless we make it hard not to do the right thing ;-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">where we are one mile wide and ten miles deep</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jsmith: ninja robots attach you if you don't subscribe to a page you own?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think jsmith has a very good point</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I am not saying that hierarchies are by definition a bad thing.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Whether it's a wiki or a CMS, you've gotta make it easy to do the right thing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think that pages will tend to accumulate in flat namespace.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">have they?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Pretty surely</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">("Don't call me surely.")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: you about?  any idea if more pages use flat namespace or moin-pseudo-hierarchy?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*EvilBob has other things to do for Fedora than just thinking about the wiki, just was looking for something else I could do.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: nor pretty</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: hey!</td></tr>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid: yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: we just need to sort out which is the right thing to spend our time on in fixing the freaking wiki</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">whats the difference between flat namespace and moin-pseudo-hierarchy?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">well</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">flat namespace is like:  Fedora9VirtQuickStart</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">pseudo-hierarchy is: Docs/9/Virt/QuickStart</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">oh</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so ... SELinux/FAQ is a non-flat usage</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">we have a good mix of both though I think most teams do pseudo-hierarchy.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I say psuedo because I don't think Moin actually organizes in folders, right?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think we're going to see mainly one folder deep</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">quaid: Oh I agree, but fixing content is not an option when I (and the users) don't even know what content there is the way things are now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I was contemplating a massive help in pushing to MW right after FAS2 rolls out</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and then resolving this more on the other side, once we know the new scope</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so, we might not need to fix names as much as use search to find duplicate content, merge, etc. like Paul said</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: I think that's the right plan if we're just a short way from it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">quaid: I agree with Paul that we need to look at what we will want to have once FAS2 and MW are a reality</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">It looks like both are close</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">there is also a secondary question on the table:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Some days, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth burning it all and starting over.  Give people a time to move the relevant content (from Moin to MW), and burn the rest.  You know, like the same way you cleaned out the fridge in college.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">do we want a separate Docs/ namespace?  something that is just Fedora Docs?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">my problem is that when I search I get proxy errors</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">or do we want to merge that up a layer, the idea being -- hey it's a wiki, it's docs already</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: I think that may actually be a hindrance</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">We just draft in the appropriate space and let people go where they may.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">so the wiki is worthless unless we start fixing things now even if it is on a small scale and focused</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">It couldn't be any worse uptake than right now -- meaning, we have Docs people who will work on it wherever it sits.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">right, so it's all project or content areas, with content area being everything from "FixingVideoProblems" to "KernelHacks"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Has anyone found a good example of a well-organized wiki? - Maybe we should look around for a role model</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: +</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">do we even want the concept of a Draft namespace within?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">e.g. Virt/Draft/Foo that moves to Virt/Foo?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Draft no</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Virt/Foo/Draft</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">or is a wiki, by definition, one big clusterdraft?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Virt/Foo/8</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I've come to think without a CMS and workflow, it's somewhat meaningless.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Virt/Foo/9</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Virt/Foo/7</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1 to "everything's a draft."</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">stickster: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">"a wiki is one big clusterdraft"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">:-D</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that's my next t-shirt</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">It's a draft until it's checked into CVS and converted to DocBook XML</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Mine says "you're stupid"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">*ding ding ding*</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">not you</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">then published on a web site</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">but others</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: riiiight ... :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I think "draft" space has a place in the wiki</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*stickster thinks '|| This is a draft ||' accomplishes that</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: how do you envision versioning differences?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">even if it is only used as a scratch pad for the next release</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">one reason I like the version in a title/namespace is we can search for old shit to either mark as deprecated, update, or remove</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">A rolling scratch pad from release to release</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid is having a very hard time not swearing this morning, sorry :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">quaid: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: I think categories can take care of that nicely. We should be more freewheeling about them and use them like tags</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">stickster: +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid goes to look at wtf MW does about that</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: in the long run yes</td></tr>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: but that does not fix today, or tomorrow</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we still have moin moin for a little while</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a"><a href="http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Categories">http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Categories</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: Tomorrow may be closer than you think.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I think we need to work on some of these gardening ideas before the migration so we have a better product after</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think if we start framing it like a product, we're losing.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: I'm worried about us wasting time in moving content if it just won't matter</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">e.g. we could be taking that time to put stuff in categories later, thereby getting the effect we want but in the freaking database of MW instead of trapped in CategoryFooBarBaz tags in Moin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: disco</td></tr>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">My personal feeling is that the right place to spend time is polishing the DUG and AG, getting them out of the way so work can progress on other areas like the GIG.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: does the Moin to MW migration scriptie cover the CategoryFoo stuff for tagging the resultant pages?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">Not sure, I'd bet it doesn't.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">I've got a script I'm working on and daMaestro is looking into one as well.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">are you building on an existing script?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ah, ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">yeah, I can get a copy to you.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Evil Bob got split</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">I'm not sure what license it is released under, I've contacted the author.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we could use the old wiki in r-o mode for a while to do some of that; pull up pages by Category then tag the MW version;b ut that is a pita it seems we could automate?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">Yeah I was going to leave up for a couple of months at least in some sort of RO fashion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">there is some bad lag</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">how much time do we want to spend on the automation of migration?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, let me summarize so far if I can:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: I think automating that seems pretty easy.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">mmcgrath</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid: it depends on what we want out of mediawiki.  There's some bits I have in the "need" column right now (like proper table migration)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* namespaces probably don't matter as much in MW; stickster argues that full text index is our friend there,  as well as other MW features to find and merge content</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: I hope that tomorrow comes very very fast</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: And keep in mind that "namespaces" have a particular meaning in MW, i.e. they are a feature</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* we need this sorted out before F9 drops or we'll have the same mess as usual</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">i.e. Special:, Help:, Main:, Template:, et al.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* the goal is to enable maintainers as well as contributors to be effective, easily and early</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* eradicated Docs and Draft namespaces makes sense; the whole wiki == docs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: oh, yeah ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The biggest barrier to more wiki-based content right now is (1) the inefficiency of Moin, and (2) the CLA mes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* project_area and content_area should be good enough</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">*mess.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Does it still make sense to have a Docs namespace for things like Wiki to Docbook conversion, etc?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I am trying to fix 2, and Mike et al. are trying to fix 1.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* we need to assess (quickly!) what we can do to make the MW migration fastest and bestest, then do it and move on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jsmith: DocumentationProject</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jsmith: Maybe we could categorize those too, i.e. Category:SCMControlled</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jsmith: that's docsProject</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jsmith: ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">oops</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Docs/ is end user content</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Gotcha...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jsmith: Oh wait, I think I answered the wrong question, nvm</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*jsmith finally makes the connection</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: If we even keep Docs/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">right, perfect example of the confusion of having Docs/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Which I think is unnecessary</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">It's here, it's docs.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">stickster: I summarized above that we drop it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yup</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: I am with you there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* </summary>?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Sure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">oh, right, final point:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I am not disagreeing that we need to clean things up</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">oh wait that was my whole point...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">* focus on DUG/AG then GIG while mmcgrath does MW planning; help with that; then be prepared to gang on the migration to make it happen in time</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">time == by 15 April?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Sounds fair</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Set action items for the DUG/AG.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: want to know my fear?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">EvilBob: I think the point is, any effort at clean-up at this point is like sweeping the building before we implode it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The only way the DUG/AG cleanup is going to happen is by people having clear assignments.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">maybe not "any" but "much"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: that the migration might take all pages and make them /laststring</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"> /laststring?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: Mike can take care of that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: As in Releases/9/FooBar ==> newwiki/FooBar</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: then we have 85 GettingStarted</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo -- DUG/AG assignments and planning</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: mmcgrath et al. will ensure that doesn't happen.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think we need to get this one tackled before the meeting is over</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">That's a pretty simple requirement for them to test.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">quaid: +10.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that is ready for us to volunteer</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">folks here, we all need to grab at least one of those chapters to help wordsmith/stylsmith</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">How many people here are going to help get these things done, Finally?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">EvilBob</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">stickster: even Releases/9/FooBar ==> newwiki/Releases9FooBar is fine by me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">quaid: I volunteered last week to help with the Wiki to DocBook conversion, as long as everybody is happy with what I did with the SMG</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">EvilBob: moving on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I need to do a final sweep </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">quaid: But since I haven't received any feedback on the SMG, I'm hesitant to tackle another project without making sure I did the last one right</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jsmith: You asked me, among others, to look at your work, and I haven't, apologies</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*EvilBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">stickster</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Aiiieee! netsplit killed EvilBob!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">of the DUG for typos and continuity of style</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Sorry about that, lag got evilbob</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I was way behind in the conversation</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">jmbuser</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">also the SMG, as I promised</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">is it in CVS?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that was my criteria, iirc</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so we could commit edits, etc. to cross-learn, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">if it's not, let's do that right now after the meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">The SMG is in CVS, yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">sweet</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">It's still in the yum-software-management directory, but it's in CVS</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">IT's been in CVS for about three weeks or so now</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid shamefaced</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, #fedora-docs to sort that out</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">oic</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*nim-nim has quit ("Leaving.")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">BobJensen</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I will be away for the rest of the meeting, I can't get Evilbob connected and I can't leave these kids alone</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">BobJensen: you good :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">jsmith</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">BobJensen: Fair enough... we'll cover for you (and I'll take over making snarky remarks on your behalf)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I sent a note to the list to gang up on the DUG</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*nim-nim (n=nim-nim@m71.net81-64-156.noos.fr) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">*quaid has changed the topic to: relnotes one sheet</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">... which looks good so far; getting more attention</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we can later parse some of that back into the Beats</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">speaking of beats ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#head-eaf64a312f930169fedfde4ebcb34a27527685b9">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#head-eaf64a312f930169fedfde4ebcb34a27527685b9</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Paul and I met this weekend, and that schedule is basically accurate for here on out</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so we have an upcoming 16 March wiki freeze</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">anything more on either of those topics?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">otherwise we can close and vacate the channel back to #fedora-docs ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">closing in 10</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">5</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">4</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">3</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">2</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"></meeting></td></tr>
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