Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080723

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stickster <meeting> 23 Jul 15:01
stickster Roll call! 23 Jul 15:01
Sparks here! 23 Jul 15:02
stickster Sparks: Well heck, it could be just you and me for a little bit. 23 Jul 15:02
stickster quaid will be back here by about UTC 1915. 23 Jul 15:02
stickster Sparks: I'll start off with something not on the agenda 23 Jul 15:03
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - (non-agenda) Features 23 Jul 15:03
stickster Sparks: IIRC, I got you together with poelcat for some work on Feature pages 23 Jul 15:03
stickster Have you looked at the revamping that we did to the policy stuff? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy 23 Jul 15:04
Sparks I have not. 23 Jul 15:04
Sparks I've been on travel last week and this week and I don't foresee coming up for air until later this weekend. 23 Jul 15:05
stickster Oh wow! 23 Jul 15:05
stickster Yet you're here anyway -- thanks and sorry 23 Jul 15:05
stickster I forgot it was two weeks! 23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_afk 23 Jul 15:05
* ianweller_afk is floating around the channel and might be here or not 23 Jul 15:05
Sparks Yeah... Been to DC and to Florida 23 Jul 15:05
* stickster ducks the floating head of ianweller_afk 23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_afk wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_maybea -darn 23 Jul 15:06
stickster Sparks: Well, there's a further refinement to the policy that John will be pushing through FESCo this week 23 Jul 15:06
stickster It changes the way the queue works 23 Jul 15:06
Sparks Interesting. 23 Jul 15:06
stickster Hopefully the result means a less confusing process for everyone 23 Jul 15:06
Sparks 23 Jul 15:06
* Sparks needs to read up on this 23 Jul 15:06
stickster Sparks: Let me see if I can find you a URL 23 Jul 15:07
stickster Sparks: Hm, just hit me up after this, I'll look later 23 Jul 15:08
stickster Sparks: Anyway, I'm assuming you're still planning on helping John with some of this work 23 Jul 15:08
Sparks ok 23 Jul 15:08
Sparks I am 23 Jul 15:08
stickster cool! 23 Jul 15:08
stickster that's all, just a FYI 23 Jul 15:08
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - back on agenda! 23 Jul 15:09
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - jds2001 request for boilerplate 23 Jul 15:09
stickster http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00040.html 23 Jul 15:10
stickster This is a bit silly for me to do this agenda if Sparks is the only one here. 23 Jul 15:10
Sparks Probably 23 Jul 15:11
stickster It's like me being in a room with one other person, yelling "Is there *anyone* here who will take this action item?" 23 Jul 15:11
stickster "*ANYONE?*" 23 Jul 15:11
Sparks 23 Jul 15:11
* Sparks coughs and looks down as if to find something in his bag 23 Jul 15:11
stickster haha 23 Jul 15:11
ian_maybeafk -hmm, productive meeting 23 Jul 15:11
ian_maybeafk -;) 23 Jul 15:11
stickster ian_maybeafk: Certainly it's fast. 23 Jul 15:11
stickster ian_maybeafk: I don't get it. 23 Jul 15:11
stickster ian_maybeafk: We have the easiest process ever now for getting involved. Everyone complained about DocBook XML. We moved to more wiki. 23 Jul 15:12
stickster They complained getting a wiki account was too hard. We took that barrier away. 23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk -hmmph 23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk -maybe it's the mediawiki syntax 23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk -i was going to create a mediawiki syntax cheat-shirt 23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk -where all the syntax info is upside down 23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk -(so you can read it) 23 Jul 15:13
stickster heh 23 Jul 15:13
ian_maybeafk -maybe a short training video/screencast would help 23 Jul 15:13
stickster ian_maybeafk: AHA! 23 Jul 15:14
fugolini hi 23 Jul 15:14
stickster ian_maybeafk: Now you're talking. 23 Jul 15:14
ian_maybeafk -\o/ 23 Jul 15:14
stickster ian_maybeafk: I just happen to be well equipped to make such a screencast. 23 Jul 15:14
ian_maybeafk -well well well 23 Jul 15:14
stickster ian_maybeafk: Sounds like I've got something to work on later today 23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk -of course, we still haven't decided on a wiki organization schema 23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk -which might be an important part of learning docs writing on the wiki 23 Jul 15:15
stickster *pffft 23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk -i'm assuming at this point there's no way we're ever going to completely flatten the wiki and go to complete categorization. 23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk -it seems almost impossible 23 Jul 15:15
stickster As long as we have a "move" function, I'm more concerned with getting people to actually participate in the wiki gardening. 23 Jul 15:15
stickster (which topic is coming up later.) 23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk -oh excellent 23 Jul 15:16
ian_maybeafk -:) 23 Jul 15:16
stickster So jds2001 asked us for a boilerplate contact letter for FOSS projects -- one written by someone who was entirely focused on positive outreach, so that the person using the boilerplate doesn't have to edit themselves 10 times over to avoid offending the recipient. 23 Jul 15:16
stickster s/themselves/himself/ 23 Jul 15:17
stickster I'll draft something and make it available for comment and refiling 23 Jul 15:18
stickster Release notes status! 23 Jul 15:18
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - Release Notes status 23 Jul 15:19
stickster Has anyone visited the new hosted project site? 23 Jul 15:19
stickster https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes 23 Jul 15:19
stickster Hmm, not compelling enough? 23 Jul 15:20
stickster We now have the release notes in that repo building successfully with publican. 23 Jul 15:21
ian_maybeafk - 23 Jul 15:21
* ian_maybeafk feels bad leaving stickster in a meeting with himself :< 23 Jul 15:21
stickster There are milestones set up in the Trac repo, but I need help -- mainly asking people to file "tasks" that they see aren't done. 23 Jul 15:21
stickster ian_maybeafk: I think Sparks is still here 23 Jul 15:22
stickster Maybe he's still looking for something in his bag. :-) 23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk -hehe 23 Jul 15:22
stickster quaid is supposed to be back shortly. 23 Jul 15:22
stickster Then we can, you know, talk to each other. 23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk -hehe 23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk - 23 Jul 15:23
* ian_maybeafk goes to check out the magic in the release-notes git repo 23 Jul 15:23
stickster ian_maybeafk: I wrote some intro pages for how to use it -- keeping in mind that Docs people may not understand git 23 Jul 15:23
ian_maybeafk -right-o 23 Jul 15:24
stickster ian_maybeafk: So it's a cookbook approach. If something there looks really wrong to you, I can get you access so you can fix the wording/commands 23 Jul 15:24
stickster https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/wiki/HowToHelp 23 Jul 15:24
Sparks 23 Jul 15:24
* Sparks is here... Trying to dodge the weather and reply to thousands of email that are still pending. 23 Jul 15:24
stickster hee hee 23 Jul 15:25
stickster Anyway, work is progressing steadily. 23 Jul 15:25
stickster And with that, we come to quaid's item on wiki gardening status. 23 Jul 15:26
stickster I've been doing some of this as I go along -- the Feature process was one such victim. 23 Jul 15:26
ian_maybeafk - 23 Jul 15:26
* ian_maybeafk notes his friend is here, so who knows whether i'll be here or not 23 Jul 15:26
stickster I received an email inside Red Hat from a developer who was having real problems navigating through the tangled morass of PackageMaintainers in the wiki 23 Jul 15:26
stickster So it would be good to visit those. 23 Jul 15:27
quaid sorry! network problems but we're on now 23 Jul 15:27
stickster I think the policy pages we want to stay away from. 23 Jul 15:27
quaid hi friends 23 Jul 15:27
stickster Hi quaid 23 Jul 15:27
stickster It's just you, me, partly Sparks and partly ian_maybeafk 23 Jul 15:27
quaid is Package* open enough ACLs? 23 Jul 15:27
quaid or do we get added 23 Jul 15:27
quaid ok, smooth 23 Jul 15:27
stickster quaid: It's Packaging* I think which is locked down a bit 23 Jul 15:28
stickster That's where the policy sits, and that's all pretty well written and complete AFAICT. 23 Jul 15:28
stickster It's the pages that point in there which are a bit of a mess. 23 Jul 15:28
stickster This page? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers 23 Jul 15:29
stickster It's confusing. 23 Jul 15:29
quaid so just that page 23 Jul 15:29
stickster And it may not be the only one for developers of its kind 23 Jul 15:29
stickster crap, clauses out of sequence. 23 Jul 15:29
stickster And it may not be the only one of its kind for developers 23 Jul 15:29
* stickster notes that page contains transcludes/templates for each section 23 Jul 15:30
quaid 23 Jul 15:31
* quaid opens page now that greg is done shoulder surfing 23 Jul 15:31
stickster How can we kick wiki gardening in the ass? 23 Jul 15:32
stickster Get people to pitch in? 23 Jul 15:32
* stickster thinks we need an incentive. 23 Jul 15:32
quaid hmm, incentives 23 Jul 15:34
quaid easier? 23 Jul 15:34
quaid greg had an idea earlier today ... 23 Jul 15:34
stickster No, I mean like: prizes for wiki edits. 23 Jul 15:34
quaid use the Special: page that tracks "hasn't been touched in N time" 23 Jul 15:34
quaid and put a different, shaded/colored background 23 Jul 15:34
quaid and maybe a watermark -- a pink page -- 23 Jul 15:34
quaid "if you see a pink page and think it shouldn't be active, then update it, or change it to red so that it needs fixing." 23 Jul 15:35
quaid something visuual 23 Jul 15:35
quaid and encourage people all over the place, help by hitting up these pages 23 Jul 15:35
stickster I think "encourage people all over the place" has been shown at this point to be ineffective. 23 Jul 15:35
stickster What if we were to offer a real bounty of some sort for this work? 23 Jul 15:36
stickster How could we create and track such a thing, and reduce the chances of gaming the system through things like whitespace fiddling? 23 Jul 15:36
quaid well 23 Jul 15:37
quaid start with the usuals and grow? 23 Jul 15:37
quaid that is 23 Jul 15:37
quaid make sure we highlight people who are kicking ass 23 Jul 15:37
quaid with auto tooling 23 Jul 15:37
quaid maybe a banner that rotates? 23 Jul 15:37
quaid then ... 23 Jul 15:37
quaid 1. recognition 23 Jul 15:37
quaid 2. ??? 23 Jul 15:37
quaid 3. profit! 23 Jul 15:37
stickster Hm 23 Jul 15:38
stickster Well, I know it should be quite easy to grab the info. 23 Jul 15:39
quaid right, there is something already but I forget 23 Jul 15:39
quaid lmacken hack of somekined? 23 Jul 15:39
quaid I forget 23 Jul 15:39
stickster spevack just gave me the tipoff 23 Jul 15:40
stickster git://fedorapeople.org/~lmacken/fedora-weekly-metrics 23 Jul 15:40
lmacken oh yeah, I've been meaning to add more of those 23 Jul 15:40
lmacken that repo only has a couple of basic wiki metrics 23 Jul 15:41
lmacken but eventually i'd like to see it have bugzilla, cvs, bodhi, koji, etc 23 Jul 15:41
quaid ah, cool 23 Jul 15:41
spevack lmacken: i've done nothing to help you so far, either. my apologies 23 Jul 15:41
lmacken spevack: it's cool... I've been engulfed in bodhi stuff recently. 23 Jul 15:42
stickster lmacken: Don't talk to him. He needs to study. 23 Jul 15:42
stickster  :-D 23 Jul 15:42
lmacken haha 23 Jul 15:42
spevack 23 Jul 15:42
* spevack is "studying" for the rhce 23 Jul 15:42
lmacken 23 Jul 15:42
* lmacken also started a class at boston college this week too 23 Jul 15:42
* stickster says, having just pm'd spevack several times in the last hour 23 Jul 15:42
stickster lmacken: So we were talking about... 23 Jul 15:42
spevack 23 Jul 15:42
* spevack cannot bring himself to care about several topics that are likely to be on the test 23 Jul 15:42
stickster tying this into an incentive somehow, maybe a banner that publicizes people's ass-kicking on the wiki itself 23 Jul 15:43
stickster or elsewhere 23 Jul 15:43
spevack current top 5: 23 Jul 15:44
lmacken neat. I still would like to see us do that gentoo/suse/etc do in their Weekly news -- having a stats section at the bottom 23 Jul 15:44
spevack susmit 23 Jul 15:44
spevack pcalarco 23 Jul 15:44
spevack mspevack 23 Jul 15:44
spevack pfrields 23 Jul 15:44
spevack nim 23 Jul 15:44
spevack IN YOUR FACE, stickster 23 Jul 15:44
stickster Bite me spevack 23 Jul 15:44
lmacken s/that/what/ 23 Jul 15:44
lmacken haha 23 Jul 15:44
stickster I'm gonna SO out-wiki you next week. 23 Jul 15:44
spevack 23 Jul 15:44
* spevack will make every dollar added to the fedora budget pages a separate commit 23 Jul 15:44
spevack so, that's $300 for $FOO. +1 (commit) +1 (commit) 23 Jul 15:45
* stickster sends lmacken to ban spevack from stats 23 Jul 15:45
stickster oops, s/sends/sends patch to/ 23 Jul 15:45
lmacken see, it's this kind of friendly coopetition that we are trying to create ;) 23 Jul 15:45
stickster That was two commits to the IRC log, can I count that? 23 Jul 15:45
spevack 23 Jul 15:46
* spevack places a watch on all stickster's pages, and removes one of the spaces between each sentence he types every time he commits 23 Jul 15:46
stickster D'OH!!! 23 Jul 15:46
Sparks  :) 23 Jul 15:46
spevack stickster: you called down the thunder! now you've got it! 23 Jul 15:46
stickster Two leaders walk in, only one come out. 23 Jul 15:46
spevack 23 Jul 15:47
* spevack recalls the time him and gdk did the giant sumo wrestling suit thing 23 Jul 15:47
stickster lmacken: What's the bot account message mean? 23 Jul 15:47
spevack i think i lost. but i think he cheated. 23 Jul 15:47
spevack 23 Jul 15:47
* spevack goes back to studying... sigh 23 Jul 15:47
lmacken stickster: normal user accounts can only get at most 500 results from a given query... we need to run that script using a 'bot' account to get more 23 Jul 15:48
lmacken so those stats are not exactly accurate ;) 23 Jul 15:48
stickster right, it capped at 500. 23 Jul 15:49
stickster quaid: So, what's the next action on this? 23 Jul 15:50
quaid 23 Jul 15:50
* quaid done saying howdy to bryan che 23 Jul 15:50
spevack stickster: did i totally just troll an in-progress meeting? 23 Jul 15:50
stickster spevack: You did, well done sir. 23 Jul 15:50
spevack for like 5 minutes? 23 Jul 15:50
quaid we need a technology owner 23 Jul 15:50
spevack 23 Jul 15:50
* spevack runs in shame 23 Jul 15:50
quaid who can make sure we are gathering and publishing 23 Jul 15:51
quaid lmacken: since you are doing this for other stuff 23 Jul 15:51
quaid lmacken: do you want to prototype a full feed of stats like this from Docs? 23 Jul 15:51
quaid starting with the wiki pull and push to 23 Jul 15:51
quaid ... FWN, some page somewhere (fp.org top page?), ... 23 Jul 15:51
quaid where else? 23 Jul 15:51
spevack stickster: serious question for you: 23 Jul 15:52
quaid weekly post to fedorastats.wordpress.com to appear on the planet? 23 Jul 15:52
spevack i was planning on including metrics as a beat in Fedor aWeekly News 23 Jul 15:52
spevack but I thought it would be best to wait until we had more than jus twiki edits 23 Jul 15:52
lmacken quaid: sure, I plan on helping to elaborate the metrics generation stuff. 23 Jul 15:52
spevack which is why i haven't done it yet. 23 Jul 15:52
spevack should i continue to hold off, or just do it? 23 Jul 15:52
lmacken yeah, I think we should wait to have more stats from a few more sources 23 Jul 15:53
stickster hmm 23 Jul 15:54
stickster spevack: The only thing that makes me reticent is the fact that we keep showing up in the top 10! 23 Jul 15:54
stickster spevack: OTOH, we can issue a challenge 23 Jul 15:55
stickster Beat the FPLs and get a free ____ 23 Jul 15:55
stickster Uh 23 Jul 15:55
stickster Maybe I should fill in that blank before someone else does. 23 Jul 15:55
spevack  :) i tend to agree with lmacken, which is why I've waited. 23 Jul 15:55
spevack PONY 23 Jul 15:55
stickster Porsche 23 Jul 15:55
stickster spevack: All right, but the idea is solid 23 Jul 15:55
spevack we totally need to buy a fedora contributor a pony 23 Jul 15:55
stickster lmacken: Agreed on the stats 23 Jul 15:56
stickster This is sort of a side note to the larger question. Aside from this effort... 23 Jul 15:56
stickster quaid: What else can we do? 23 Jul 15:56
stickster quaid: Is there a high-level plan for the wiki gardening? 23 Jul 15:56
stickster High enough that people know where to start digging now? 23 Jul 15:57
stickster But low enough that someone can grok it? 23 Jul 15:57
stickster I find https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening 23 Jul 15:58
stickster But after the first few subsections, it's not task-oriented enough from the new contributor standpoint. 23 Jul 15:58
stickster https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks 23 Jul 15:59
stickster That's better! 23 Jul 15:59
stickster But how to know how to categorize? 23 Jul 15:59
stickster We are almost out of time here. 23 Jul 15:59
stickster quaid: Can you take an item to make the Gardening pages clearer from the new-guy perspective? 23 Jul 16:00
stickster Simple questions, simple answers 23 Jul 16:00
stickster I'm working on a few other Docs things at present :-) 23 Jul 16:00
stickster OK, we need to end this meeting I think 23 Jul 16:01
AndreasR -stickster: no prob.. go on it seems to be funny 23 Jul 16:02
AndreasR -without the pony thing 23 Jul 16:02
spevack AndreasR: do you want a pony? 23 Jul 16:02
stickster haha 23 Jul 16:02
stickster And with that... 23 Jul 16:03
stickster </meeting> 23 Jul 16:03

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