Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090114

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quaid <meeting id="Docs team"> 14:01
* quaid still hoping for zodbot meeting logging :) 14:01
Sparks +1 14:02
quaid le roll call? 14:02
* Sparks is present 14:02
-!- John5342 [n=john5342 fedora/John5342] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:02
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg : 14:03
FUDCon results
quaid I'm here too 14:03
* quaid makes a sound of crickets chirping 14:03
quaid ok then 14:04
Sparks Where is everyone? 14:04
quaid refering to 14:04
quaid dunno 14:05
-!- fozzmoo [n=fozz 209 41 95 5] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:05
* laubersm here 14:06
quaid since I just did the 'hit their nick thing' we can wait a 14:06
* quaid forgets how useful that is 14:06
-!- jsmith 14:06
[n=njsmith asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined
quaid I regularly get saved in to a meeting because some kind 14:06
soul hit my nick to remind me it was time :)
* ke4qqq is here 14:06
* jsmith stumbles in, but is on two phone calls at the moment, 14:06
and won't be much use in the meeting
Sparks jsmith: That's a neat trick 14:06
-!- sdziallas_ [n=sebastia p57A2D2F2 dip t-dialin net] has joined 14:07
fozzmoo heh heh. The Asterisk guy is on 2 phone calls. har har. 14:07
quaid heh 14:07
quaid he needs an Asterisk Turing plugin 14:07
jsmith fozzmoo: It would be funnier if it weren't true :-( 14:07
quaid refering to 14:07
quaid from a hackfest point of view, results were mixed 14:08
* dbewley partially here 14:08
quaid * we didn't get the beats renamed 14:08
quaid * I should have known Paul wouldn't be available since he 14:08
was /running the conference/ and I didn't do too much on process by myself
quaid * we still need pages renamed, but could have tho' didn't 14:08
categorize the pages
quaid * jsmith was looking a bit on moving the needle on the IG 14:09
conversion/how to convert to Publican stuff
quaid * we taught about the wiki 14:09
quaid * docbook was taught, yay 14:09
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quaid * probably a dozen people were positively influenced 14:09
about the wiki, but we wanted the whole room to bow to our methods
quaid that's all I had 14:10
ke4qqq do we have owners for the various groups of pages? 14:10
jsmith quaid: FWIW, stickster and I took a stab at the Publican 14:10
stuff, but ran into problems with stickster's XSL transform
stickster jsmith: I think I knocked most of those out 14:11
stickster The newest tarball should hopefully work better 14:11
laubersm I got nudged into taking lead on Packaging docs 14:11
jsmith stickster: Cool... I'll give it a shot when I get a free 14:11
< stickster> 14:11
quaid ke4qqq: we have owners or people working on all BUT the 14:12
release notes
quaid laubersm++ 14:12
ke4qqq wow laubersm!!!! 14:12
-!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-busy 14:13
quaid yeah, I think the Packaging Guide is a great fit -- 14:13
laubersm has the skills to learn it on the job :), and it's probably the
most impactful
thing we can be working on, in terms of making Fedorans'
lives better.
jsmith-busy Amen! 14:13
laubersm I don't think the renaming and adding catagories will 14:13
be hard... then we;ll go from there
* quaid expects others will pitch in esp. as they see momentum 14:13
quaid laubersm: go ahead and talk too much about it on 14:14
fedora-docs-list; ask lots of questions on fedora-wiki lists fp org; etc.
laubersm will do 14:14
ke4qqq yeah I finished all of the Ambassador renaming during 14:15
fudcon - I'd guess maybe an hour per 100 pages if you know the content.
Sparks +1 14:15
quaid ke4qqq: sweet, yeah, I saw the PSV file 14:16
quaid g / G_work is probably still asleep ... 14:16
quaid we maybe need to enable ianweller to use wikibot more or 14:17
quaid I'd like to see us push those naming changes through asap. 14:17
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Sparks quaid: How long does it take wikibot to do all the work? 14:18
quaid dunno, it should be pretty fast 14:18
quaid it's making changes in the database perhaps? 14:18
quaid yeah, I think so; it's not scraping and inputing via the 14:18
usual web interface.
Sparks heck, give him the keys and let him go nuts 14:18
quaid +1 14:19
quaid so, we'll update the main task list from the fudcon 14:19
did/didn't list when we get there
Sparks Can we create a new position? Like Wiki Czar? 14:19
ke4qqq Sparks: isn't that ian? 14:19
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg : 14:19 ::
CMS planz
Sparks ke4qqq: My point exactly.  :) 14:19
quaid Sparks: basically, yes, I think we did that a while ago 14:19
Sparks quaid: Cool 14:20
quaid a few months, not sure if it was Czar, but I like that 14:20
quaid hope it wouldn't get any any czarists angry :) 14:20
quaid so, did everyone read my email on CMS to f-docs-l? 14:20
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Sparks I did. 14:21
laubersm I did 14:21
* jsmith-busy read it, threw his hands in the air, and did 14:21
nothing else
ke4qqq yes, and I am curious as to what response you have had. 14:21
quaid laubersm: cheat, you proofread it for me before I sent it! 14:21
* laubersm laughs 14:21
quaid ke4qqq: I haven't looked outside of the list yet, but 14:21
p'raps it's time to send to the other lists
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* ke4qqq thought you already sent it to -devel 14:22
quaid nothing from the wider community; Max and Greg thought it 14:22
was a good plan.
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quaid ke4qqq: oops, not yet 14:22
quaid why stall? not sure ... 14:22
Sparks quaid: Is there a wiki page for the CMS discussion? 14:22
quaid Sparks: yeah ... 14:22
< quaid> 14:22
* ke4qqq thinks we should send it to -devel and -art and maybe 14:22
even just the fedora list
laubersm quaid: send it out 14:23
quaid ke4qqq: +1 ... hadn't thought about art though 14:23
quaid definitely -list and -devel-list 14:23
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Sparks quaid: We should build profiles on each option that has 14:25
been proposed and show pros and cons.
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the connection]
quaid Sparks: ah, see ... 14:26
Sparks quaid: Maybe we can narrow the list down based on 14:26
specific things we have to have or can't live with.
Sparks quaid: Plus the ability of someone to maintain it upstream. 14:26
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#fedora-meeting []
ke4qqq the problem we identified at FUDcon is that virtually 14:26
all of the options meet most if not all of the needs.
Sparks ke4qqq: That's the kind of problem I like! 14:26
quaid right, and the process of going beyond marketing materials 14:26
quaid is a huge vetting operation. 14:26
quaid Sparks: except then nothing stands out as a clear winner 14:27
Sparks quaid: True 14:27
ke4qqq and really, we are looking for owners. 14:27
quaid we also have the problem that anything we bring to 14:27
Infrastructure is going to be new to them; they are already well taxed
with other
complexity, etc.
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quaid ke4qqq: +1 14:27
Sparks So we would need a buy in from them as well. 14:28
Sparks We don't want something that is going to add so much 14:28
work, etc.
quaid Sparks: that was the brainwave at FUDCon -- we aren't 14:28
looking for a CMS as much as owners for a CMS, who are preferably
passionate about it
quaid e.g. note Basil's response on list 14:28
ke4qqq Sparks: Mike & Co. seem pretty open to just about 14:28
anything within reason.
jsmith-busy quaid: I talked to mmcgrath about that, and he 14:28
didn't seem *that* concerned about bringing in a new CMS
Sparks Have we drawn a line in the sand to say "no more" than 14:29
the seven on the list now?
quaid jsmith-busy: I know, but then I talked with Toshio ... 14:29
ke4qqq jsmith-busy: but on Sunday he did point out that the 14:29
wiki migration was really successful because it had an owner (Ian)
quaid right, and the wiki is the reference model 14:30
quaid when we announced that we were going to move to a 14:30
specific wiki solution, the person passionate about it showed up.
jsmith-busy Sparks: No, it may be premature to draw that line 14:30
(as much as I hate to admit it)
-!- danielsmw 14:30
[n=danielsm 130-127-20-68 mauldin resnet clemson edu] has joined
Sparks jsmith-busy: Well, that's a problem in itself. 14:30
quaid and if we just said "Drupal" that would probably happen, 14:30
but then we had the thought ... why not just approach this through the
passion/interest as a primary scope item.
Sparks jsmith-busy: As you already know 14:30
* danielsmw waves hello 14:30
quaid hey danielsmw 14:31
* jsmith-busy has to run 14:31
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quaid we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l 14:31
danielsmw k 14:31
< quaid> 14:32
for the IRC records :)
-!- harveybetty [n=harvey firewall eccnet com] has joined 14:33
quaid Sparks: one thing I appreciated about Basil's email was 14:33
that he narrowed it to "PHP-based" but was willing to consider outside
of his
expertise; that leaves room for e.g. Joomla experts to
show up and he can join that team.
quaid hey harveybetty 14:33
ke4qqq right, but the MW decision was pushed based on the 14:33
technical need.
quaid we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l 14:33
harveybetty Hi there - I was in the wrong channel 14:33
quaid ke4qqq: right, and we have no clear cms winner as we did 14:33
for wiki
quaid plus that was some months of work on mmcgrath's part; he 14:33
vetted the solutions, ran scripts, etc.
quaid the part of this that we could do but haven't nor really 14:33
want to :)
quaid harveybetty: yeah, we got our meeting time secured; the 14:34
other group moved to a different day
harveybetty Is there a list of CMS's that are being considered? 14:34
danielsmw harveybetty: this was the original page on the topic 14:35
that lists some on the bottom:
danielsmw although i don't know what's been discussed here 14:35
quaid we are talkinga bout 14:35
quaid the idea of having a team self-identify as being willing 14:36
quaid to deploy and maintain 14:36
quaid and they choose their own solution 14:36
danielsmw ooh. 14:36
quaid i.e., email to fedora-list gets some Drupal people interested 14:36
quaid so it's Drupal, they run it, and we work with them. 14:36
quaid otherwise we are in a deep rabbit hole looking at 100+ 14:37
solutions that nearly all fit our needs, without any technical
contributors to fix the
gaps, and still nothing deployed with no one to deploy it :)
harveybetty Drupal is a nice solution. There is an XML module 14:38
that fits nicely. I have run into a problem when trying to install
faceted search
because the search doesn't understand XML and
causes errors. I am investigating integrating SOLR as the search engine.
quaid ok, so I'm sending email to f-devel-l and fedora-list and 14:38
quaid harveybetty: honestly, considering how many Drupalheads I 14:39
know of, I'd bet that one has a clear run for the lead; if you are
interested in
being part of a team that deploys/maintains, that is even
better :)
quaid we haven't heard of any DocBook module other than that one 14:39
* quaid ready to move on to the next agenda item 14:39
quaid anything more here? 14:39
ke4qqq nothing - but I'd like to ask a bunch of questions of 14:40
harveybetty at some point regarding drupal
Sparks ke4qqq: Maybe we should have a separate session after 14:40
the meeting
harveybetty Be glad too. It is a generic XML module and you 14:40
can plug Docbook in.
* danielsmw agrees 14:40
Sparks ke4qqq: I have questions as well 14:40
quaid ok, maybe on #fedora-docs, start anytime IMO 14:41
harveybetty I can be available later on #fedora-docs. 14:41
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: 14:41
Release notes lead ...
quaid this remains our only un-led guide 14:41
quaid other than wider recruiting ... 14:42
quaid any other thoughts on that one? 14:42
* quaid notes that it is in fact usually much easier on the 14:42
writing and much harder on the wrangling of cats than other content
Sparks This is probably one of our biggest project that gets 14:42
the most attention.
quaid yeah, I think it's unlikely we'll just drop it 14:43
quaid despite whatever stickster and I have said :) 14:43
quaid so it might be worth a wider recruiting effort? 14:44
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stickster quaid: How many wider recruiting efforts have we had 14:44
at this point, do you think?
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* ke4qqq wonders if laubersm can be nudged more? 14:44
* Sparks warms up the pokers 14:44
* laubersm runs fast 14:44
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Sparks laubersm: I'm sure you'll have support if you do take 14:46
the project.
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quaid stickster: not that much outside of my occasional pleas 14:46
via blogging
Sparks laubersm: Just need someone to "manage" its development. 14:46
laubersm sparks: I already have a project 14:46
Sparks  :) 14:46
ke4qqq there's been the mailing list posts as well 14:46
quaid yeah, that's my concern, we don't want to overload those 14:46
who are already taking on assignments
quaid stickster: but with one thing to recruit for, maybe that 14:47
will help?
ke4qqq so here is my concern..... 14:47
* quaid listens 14:47
ke4qqq you are essentially talking about taking a person from 0 14:47
- - to responsible for what is arguably the most important document we
produce at
least in terms of # of readers.
quaid ke4qqq: honestly, I'm going to be there all the way alongside 14:49
quaid but that is a good point 14:49
Sparks quaid: How long does it take to put all the changes in? 14:49
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quaid Sparks: ideally one watches the wiki along the way and 14:49
makes it easier
ke4qqq that sounds scary......even though there is handholding 14:49
quaid true 14:49
quaid maybe I could ask for "interns" to work directly with me 14:50
for the release
quaid with the idea that one of them will step-up to lead for 14:50
the F12 release.
ke4qqq why not target the beat writers for F10? 14:50
ke4qqq esp the non-new feature writers 14:51
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quaid ke4qqq: as in, direct asking if they want to lead? 14:51
ke4qqq yes 14:51
quaid that's not a bad idea in fact :) 14:52
* quaid makes himself a list 14:52
quaid so ... 14:52
ke4qqq that's a 'promotion' 14:52
quaid 1. Ask existing beat writers from F10 14:52
-!- iarlyy [n=iarlyy mail libertynet com br] has joined 14:52
quaid 2. If no bites, maybe recruit ass't editors who get 14:52
promoted in the future.
quaid 3. If no go there, decide if we are going to do the guide 14:52
anyway or not
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route to host)]
* ke4qqq thinks FESCo will fire us if we don't.....besides that 14:53
gets more rave reviews.... - perhaps we drop another document and
refocus on that.
* ke4qqq shrugs 14:53
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Sparks I see the Docs Project working on two kinds of projects: 14:53
Sparks 1) The projects we are passionate about 14:54
Sparks 2) The projects that need to get done for Fedora 14:54
quaid well, one can self-volunteer for 2) but you can't really 14:54
go asking for that too much.
Sparks While we all like doing the first type of projects we 14:54
all need to do the second type.
* ke4qqq doesn't see many projects that aren't #2, even if the 14:55
reason for working on them are #1.
Sparks ke4qqq: true 14:56
* ke4qqq can't get subjects and verbs to agree 14:56
quaid right, and the idea is to get #2 done via the #1 method 14:56
quaid then it's done better, with more fun, etc. 14:56
ke4qqq +1 14:56
Sparks +1 14:57
laubersm and if there is someone out there passionate about 14:57
having release notes.....
quaid  :D 14:57
quaid well, if we drop the work, they'll sure notice :) 14:57
ke4qqq there are lots of people passionate about having 14:57
them....just not about writing them.
quaid is anyone available/interested in helping with the 14:57
recruting for RN lead?
* ke4qqq will work on recruiting a new RN lead 14:58
quaid ke4qqq: you're on! 14:58
quaid thx 14:58
* quaid will update our tasks table with this stuff, too 14:58
quaid since we are near closing 14:59
quaid how about if we call this here and retire to #fedora-docs? 14:59
ke4qqq +1 14:59
danielsmw +1 14:59
quaid sweet 14:59
* quaid closes in 5 14:59
quaid 4 14:59
quaid 3 14:59
quaid 2 14:59
quaid 1 14:59
quaid </meeting> 14:59