| Sparks
|
#startmeeting
|
00:00
|
| Sparks
|
#meetingtopic Docs Meeting 25 Jun 2009
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00:00
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
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00:00
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| Sparks
|
Roll Call
|
00:00
|
| * Sparks is here
|
00:00
|
| * ke4qqq is here
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00:00
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| uclugLee
|
is here (still learning chat code)
|
00:01
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| ke4qqq
|
welcome Lee!
|
00:01
|
| Sparks
|
Welcome all... Hopefully we'll have a good attendance tonight.
|
00:01
|
| * ianweller is kinda maybe sorta here but not really
|
00:02
|
| * rudi is here
|
00:02
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| ke4qqq
|
isn't someone paying you to attend ianweller ??? :)
|
00:02
|
| * Sparks ties ianweller to a chair
|
00:02
|
| ianweller
|
ke4qqq: my internet is being fuxxored
|
00:02
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| ianweller
|
i want to burn my ISP
|
00:02
|
| ianweller
|
but
|
00:02
|
| ianweller
|
yeah
|
00:02
|
| ke4qqq
|
ahhhh ok
|
00:02
|
| ianweller
|
so no warning on whether i'm here or not :P
|
00:02
|
| ke4qqq
|
is that excuse the new 'my dog ate my homework' ?
|
00:02
|
| * Sparks hopes that quaid will be here so he can talk about the licensing
|
00:03
|
| ianweller
|
ke4qqq: ok you ping salina0.ianweller.org and see when it stops responding. :P
|
00:03
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| Sparks
|
ianweller: Can we all do that?
|
00:03
|
| Sparks
|
home grown DDOS
|
00:03
|
| Sparks
|
:)
|
00:03
|
| ianweller
|
bluh
|
00:03
|
| uclugLee
|
Woohoo!!! My name is registered now...not really sure what that means, but....
|
00:03
|
| * Sparks gives everyone one more minute
|
00:05
|
| ianweller
|
hmm it seems like my internet is fairly stable now
|
00:05
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| ianweller
|
whee
|
00:05
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| ke4qqq
|
ianweller: have you done an unofficial review on ucluglee's package?
|
00:05
|
| ianweller
|
no
|
00:05
|
| ianweller
|
i should probably do that.
|
00:05
|
| * Sparks makes a note to doc ianweller's pay for this week
|
00:06
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| ke4qqq
|
do I nned to add it to the todo?
|
00:06
|
| uclugLee
|
Wait.......that didn't sound right.
|
00:06
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| ianweller
|
ke4qqq: that would be extremely helpful
|
00:06
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| Sparks
|
DO IT!
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00:06
|
| Sparks
|
Okay... if everyone will take their seats... we'll get started
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00:06
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| Sparks
|
quaid: You here?
|
00:06
|
| * radsy is here
|
00:06
|
| * Sparks skips the CC licensing topic
|
00:07
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| Sparks
|
is anyone here about the shared open-source style guide?
|
00:07
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| ianweller
|
can someone recap that for me?
|
00:07
|
| ianweller
|
i'm kinda lost about it
|
00:07
|
| Sparks
|
ianweller: as soon as someone fills me in... sure
|
00:07
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| ianweller
|
hah
|
00:08
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| ianweller
|
mmmmk
|
00:08
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| ke4qqq
|
I like the idea - but man someone needs to stand up and lead it - and come up with lots of volunteers
|
00:08
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| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: Would you like to speak about it?
|
00:08
|
| ke4qqq
|
not really
|
00:08
|
| pcutler
|
Sparks: which one? (I'm here representing GNOME, at a docs conference 2 weeks ago we started working on a shared open source style guide)
|
00:08
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Shared open-source style guide
|
00:08
|
| radsy
|
we have our own internal style guide here
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00:08
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| Sparks
|
Okay... let's jump into it, then.
|
00:08
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| ke4qqq
|
radsy: does it reference cms or ap?
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00:09
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| radsy
|
ap?
|
00:09
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| Sparks
|
pcutler: What can you tell us about the style guide project.
|
00:09
|
| Sparks
|
?
|
00:09
|
| rudi
|
ke4qqq - neither
|
00:09
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| pcutler
|
at a docs conference 2 weeks ago, we had various free software projects, including GNOME, XFCE, Ubuntu, Drupal and BSD together.
|
00:09
|
| pcutler
|
during our hackfest on Sunday, one group started working on the style guide, which is a wip found here: http://writingopensource.com/node/14
|
00:10
|
| pcutler
|
this is in it's infancy, so it's still really rough, and nowhere near complete
|
00:10
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| ke4qqq
|
radsy - Associates Press - and Chicago Manual of Style
|
00:10
|
| * Sparks wonders why I wasn't invited... :(
|
00:10
|
| pcutler
|
i didn't spend a lot of time on it as I was doing GNOME hackfest stuff
|
00:10
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| Sparks
|
pcutler: So what do you want/need from us?
|
00:11
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| ke4qqq
|
radsy: any chance CES's is OPL-licensed?
|
00:11
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| pcutler
|
Sparks: don't know yet, right now our goal is to get GNOME better integrated downstream and open communication to stuff like this
|
00:11
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| shaunm
|
pcutler: discussing the open source style guide?
|
00:11
|
| pcutler
|
shaunm: yes
|
00:11
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| pcutler
|
as far as they style guide, I was there, but wasn't active on that project
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00:12
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: If you have something to add please do.
|
00:12
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| radsy
|
ke4qqq, i'm not sure how it's licensed, but i can probably find out for you
|
00:12
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| radsy
|
leave it with me
|
00:12
|
| pcutler
|
one topic discussed was how to create our own version of the Chicago Manual of Style long term
|
00:12
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| ke4qqq
|
that'd be awesome
|
00:12
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| rudi
|
ke4qqq -- not at the moment, in fact, it's "Confidential"
|
00:12
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| radsy
|
or that ^
|
00:12
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| pcutler
|
"our" as in all open source projects
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00:13
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| Sparks
|
I guess I'm just confused about what is needed from Fedora. I'm sure we'd be happy to participate and provide all our documentation as needed.
|
00:13
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| shaunm
|
I saw some confusion in some places, so I'd just like to point out that the idea is not to get rid of project-specific style guides
|
00:13
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| ke4qqq
|
they want us to participate in creation - plus fedora has an existing style guide - though it references chicago so it's incomplete in their scope.
|
00:14
|
| * quaid slides in the back of the room
|
00:14
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| shaunm
|
right, so any sufficiently large documentation project has its own style guide. same happens in the commercial sector
|
00:14
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| shaunm
|
but project style guides deal with very specific things for that project, and happily leave the general stuff to a general style guide, like CMS or AP
|
00:15
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| Sparks
|
okay. It would probably be a good time to get some folks working on updating our backend documents (like the style-guide and development documentation)
|
00:15
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| shaunm
|
the idea is to make a free style guide that can be that general base for all of us
|
00:15
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| quaid
|
certainly in the area of "is it x86, X86, etc."
|
00:16
|
| quaid
|
we do our readers a service in normalizing
|
00:16
|
| Sparks
|
Okay. Is there anyone that would like to raise their hand and volunteer to work as a liaison and help wrangle this from our end?
|
00:16
|
| ke4qqq
|
I don't mind acting as a liaison there
|
00:17
|
| shaunm
|
and note that I don't know how we're going about this. I'm not the one leading the effort
|
00:17
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| ke4qqq
|
but I'd really like to see if we could get CES to release theirs under a free license.
|
00:17
|
| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: Thanks. I'll put you on it, then. I'd also like to be involved. Just keep me in the loop of what's happening, please.
|
00:17
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| ke4qqq
|
np
|
00:17
|
| rudi
|
ke4qqq -- I'll be happy to follow that up. I don't imagine that it would be a big deal.
|
00:18
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| shaunm
|
ke4qqq: sorry, I'm not familiar with CES. link?
|
00:18
|
| quaid
|
ke4qqq: +1 to an RHT addition
|
00:18
|
| rudi
|
shaunm, actually, ECS -- Red Hat Engineering Content Services
|
00:18
|
| ke4qqq
|
shaunm: Content Engineering Services - it's the docs team at RH
|
00:18
|
| shaunm
|
ah, thanks
|
00:18
|
| ke4qqq
|
wow - sorry for transposing the name
|
00:19
|
| rudi
|
ke4qqq - np. It's not in front of your face every day, like it is for some of us ;)
|
00:19
|
| Sparks
|
Okay, so ke4qqq is going to run with that ball. Does anyone else have anything on this topic?
|
00:20
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: pcutler: Thanks for helping us understand what's happening here.
|
00:21
|
| * Sparks moves back to the first topic since he saw quaid slip into the back of the room.
|
00:21
|
| scramer
|
Im curious what style guides we have already. the link posted a minute ago. doesn't contain much
|
00:21
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| Sparks
|
scramer: I think that is something we are going to have to figure out.
|
00:22
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Status on CC license discussion
|
00:23
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: Do you have an update on the license discussion?
|
00:23
|
| quaid
|
short is, I've been on vacation since the last meeting, basically
|
00:23
|
| quaid
|
so I haven't moved the needl
|
00:23
|
| quaid
|
but bonus, I just started up gnote from scratch
|
00:24
|
| quaid
|
and added this as the first to-do item
|
00:24
|
| quaid
|
I'll bounce traffic back to the list asap.
|
00:24
|
| quaid
|
<eof>
|
00:24
|
| Sparks
|
:)
|
00:24
|
| Sparks
|
cool... Does anyone have any questions?
|
00:24
|
| quaid
|
and dependencies I need to know about?
|
00:24
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: Thanks for the update...
|
00:26
|
| Sparks
|
moving on
|
00:26
|
| quaid
|
esp. dependencies :)
|
00:26
|
| quaid
|
so moved
|
00:27
|
| Sparks
|
:)
|
00:27
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Bugzilla Component Changes - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table
|
00:27
|
| Sparks
|
So no one has really commented on this. So if no one has anything to say about it tonight I'm going to start the process of converting or changing or leaving alone.
|
00:28
|
| * quaid takes a quick final peek
|
00:28
|
| ianweller
|
Sparks: did you talk to translators about abandoning the translation docs?
|
00:28
|
| ianweller
|
i don't want other subprojects getting angry
|
00:29
|
| Sparks
|
ianweller: yes. I've gotten multiple confirmation on blowing those files away
|
00:29
|
| Sparks
|
errr... abandoning them
|
00:29
|
| * Sparks never throws anything away
|
00:29
|
| quaid
|
it's in Trac now iirc
|
00:29
|
| quaid
|
um, two questions
|
00:29
|
| quaid
|
docs-common has tools in it that are potentially useful, may never be packaged, and are in trac now
|
00:29
|
| quaid
|
do we not need a bug component because it's not a packaged thing?
|
00:30
|
| ke4qqq
|
and many of them still needed for things like RN
|
00:30
|
| * quaid is going to go over his alotted two questions, but tries ...
|
00:30
|
| ke4qqq
|
and older versions of documents such as the IG for F10
|
00:30
|
| quaid
|
and example-tutorial, is that supplated by create_book?
|
00:31
|
| quaid
|
i.e., if we want a Fedora-specific example, we should put it in publican-fedora, right?
|
00:31
|
| * quaid notes there may have been some gold in xml-normalize, but it's probably supplanted by pulican, too
|
00:31
|
| * quaid has latency, argh
|
00:32
|
| quaid
|
<eoq>
|
00:32
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: We can put anything in bz that needs to be there. I plan on being very flexible with "our" product in bz.
|
00:32
|
| quaid
|
so, if we are doing team wide planning/task management with bz, we probably need to keep docs-common under it's new name
|
00:32
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: And I think many things are going to get "lost" because we will be using publican.
|
00:33
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: +1 to using BZ for... everything
|
00:33
|
| quaid
|
bzborg
|
00:33
|
| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: I'm not sure if I understand your statement
|
00:34
|
| quaid
|
docs-common tools are still needed
|
00:34
|
| quaid
|
for RN and F10 guides, i.e. "PP" (pre-publican)
|
00:34
|
| ke4qqq
|
perhaps I misunderstand then
|
00:34
|
| ke4qqq
|
and even the 'other dogs' that are included with RN post-publican
|
00:35
|
| ke4qqq
|
s/dogs/docs/
|
00:35
|
| quaid
|
*woof*
|
00:35
|
| Sparks
|
IMO, we need BZ components for all active items not in the wiki... does that make sense?
|
00:36
|
| Sparks
|
If we decide to sunset a project or move it to the wiki we should get rid of the component in BZ to prevent confusion.
|
00:37
|
| ke4qqq
|
eg - we can't EOL docs-common til all of the docs that need docs-common
|
00:37
|
| Sparks
|
yes... that makes sense
|
00:37
|
| ke4qqq
|
are EOLed - which means at least another 12 months
|
00:37
|
| quaid
|
but we can rename it
|
00:37
|
| ke4qqq
|
yep
|
00:37
|
| Sparks
|
okay. 48 more hours and then I'm taking an ax to things... :)
|
00:38
|
| Sparks
|
make notes/updates on the page and let's take further discussion to the list.
|
00:39
|
| Sparks
|
is that okay?
|
00:39
|
| ke4qqq
|
worksforme
|
00:39
|
| quaid
|
k
|
00:39
|
| Sparks
|
This topic really started as a BZ clean up but turned out to be a clean up of Docs!
|
00:40
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything else before we move on?
|
00:40
|
| Sparks
|
#topic CMS Update <-- ke4qqq
|
00:40
|
| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: Zikula... talk to us!
|
00:41
|
| ke4qqq
|
so lots of modules packaged
|
00:41
|
| ke4qqq
|
a few hiccups (licensing)
|
00:42
|
| ke4qqq
|
poelcat has volunteered to take the pm role
|
00:42
|
| ke4qqq
|
but we haven't yet had an initial meeting
|
00:42
|
| quaid
|
?
|
00:42
|
| quaid
|
I saw that traffic from John
|
00:42
|
| quaid
|
and is that just for the docs.fp.o site?
|
00:42
|
| ke4qqq
|
upstream has been very responsive to our concerns
|
00:42
|
| quaid
|
Zikula++
|
00:42
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: I think this is for getting the initial instance of Zikula up... which will be docs.fp.o.
|
00:43
|
| ke4qqq
|
quaid: no this is for other fp.o uses as well I suppose
|
00:43
|
| quaid
|
both! neither!
|
00:43
|
| ke4qqq
|
so many groups have an interest
|
00:43
|
| Sparks
|
yes
|
00:43
|
| Sparks
|
Well...
|
00:43
|
| ke4qqq
|
and so many parties are needed
|
00:43
|
| Sparks
|
infra and art are needed initially to make sure everything is... perfect (like it would be any other way)
|
00:44
|
| quaid
|
it would help if we made it clear that this is a step in a process that still includes hope.
|
00:44
|
| Sparks
|
after that it should be an easy process to get other instances up and functioning
|
00:44
|
| quaid
|
for the other teams involved; unless Infra/Websites wants to move in parallel, too
|
00:44
|
| ke4qqq
|
and I am doing a poor job of getting it all done quite honestly, though Sparks has been packaging and stuff like a madman
|
00:44
|
| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: give me keys and I'll drive us to California
|
00:45
|
| ke4qqq
|
:)
|
00:45
|
| quaid
|
this is a nice point for poelcat to step in; it's like a Fedora-ratchet, moving things along from doer to doer :)
|
00:45
|
| Sparks
|
yes
|
00:46
|
| Sparks
|
I think we'll be meeting the beginning of next week (I speculate)
|
00:46
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything else?
|
00:47
|
| Sparks
|
#topic DocsProject wiki pages changes
|
00:47
|
| Sparks
|
ianweller: you still around?
|
00:48
|
| Sparks
|
ianweller: What's the status of getting wikibot out of the garage?
|
00:48
|
| * ke4qqq needs to duck out of the meeting - sorry can't stay longer.
|
00:48
|
| shaunm
|
are you through your agenda items?
|
00:48
|
| Sparks
|
ke4qqq: thanks for coming
|
00:48
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: about half way through the items... but the last half goes faster
|
00:48
|
| * Sparks thinks ianweller is MIA.
|
00:49
|
| shaunm
|
I have something I'd like to discuss with the fedora docs team, but I don't want to interrupt your agenda
|
00:49
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: Can you stick around for another ten min?
|
00:49
|
| shaunm
|
sure, no problem
|
00:49
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: cool
|
00:50
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Status on Installation Guide
|
00:50
|
| Sparks
|
rudi: Any updates on the IG?
|
00:50
|
| rudi
|
Not much -- I'm working my way through the bug list and on some new material that engineers want incorporated
|
00:50
|
| rudi
|
Still hope to have a revised edition ready in the next week or so
|
00:51
|
| rudi
|
(but I think I said that last week)
|
00:51
|
| Sparks
|
:)
|
00:52
|
| Sparks
|
rudi: Cool. If you need anything just let me know.
|
00:52
|
| rudi
|
Ta.
|
00:52
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything for the IG?
|
00:52
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Status on Security Guide
|
00:53
|
| Sparks
|
Well... I submitted a new package for review. I think he likes it.
|
00:53
|
| Sparks
|
Have a couple of open tickets on transitioning some information from the wiki over to the guide.
|
00:54
|
| Sparks
|
And I'd like to make mention of radsy's SELinux guides in the document, somewhere.
|
00:54
|
| Sparks
|
radsy: do you have anything to add?
|
00:54
|
| radsy
|
on the security guide?
|
00:54
|
| radsy
|
no
|
00:54
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything?
|
00:54
|
| radsy
|
it's not in my field of view right now
|
00:55
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Status on SELinux Guides
|
00:55
|
| Sparks
|
radsy: I'm guessing these are, though
|
00:55
|
| radsy
|
i'm trying to beat publican into submission with the user-guide translations, and i'm working on mysql/squid for the services-guide.
|
00:56
|
| * Sparks offers his baseball bat
|
00:56
|
| Sparks
|
radsy: If I can help with the translations (or anything) please let me knwo.
|
00:57
|
| Sparks
|
I know that jjmcd has good experience with the translations, too (more than me) so he might be a good resource
|
00:57
|
| Sparks
|
as soon as he returns from Germany
|
00:57
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything?
|
00:58
|
| Sparks
|
#topic Status on User Guide <-- danielsmw & rudi
|
00:58
|
| Sparks
|
rudi: Any changes to the UG?
|
00:58
|
| rudi
|
Nothing on the radar for this one.
|
00:58
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything?
|
00:58
|
| quaid
|
hmm
|
00:59
|
| quaid
|
is that one being lead?
|
00:59
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: which one? The UG? danielsmw and rudi are assigned to it
|
00:59
|
| quaid
|
ok
|
00:59
|
| * Sparks notes he hasn't seen danielsmw around lately
|
00:59
|
| quaid
|
sorry, was out of touch and missed that folks actually volunteered, bless 'em
|
01:00
|
| quaid
|
I thought danielsmw took an LOA?
|
01:00
|
| Sparks
|
did he?
|
01:00
|
| quaid
|
or am I discombobulating him with jmtaylor?
|
01:00
|
| * Sparks will consult his notes after the meeting
|
01:00
|
| quaid
|
sorry Matthew if I am
|
01:00
|
| Sparks
|
Okay, anythign else on the UG?
|
01:00
|
| Sparks
|
#topic New Guides
|
01:00
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone working on or wanting to work on a new guide?
|
01:01
|
| rudi
|
I plan to work on an Installation Quick Start Guide for F11
|
01:01
|
| rudi
|
F12 rather
|
01:01
|
| Sparks
|
cool
|
01:01
|
| quaid
|
cool
|
01:01
|
| Sparks
|
step one: put in DVD
|
01:01
|
| Sparks
|
step two: press enter
|
01:01
|
| Sparks
|
step three: walk away
|
01:02
|
| Sparks
|
step four: return and enjoy Fedora goodness
|
01:02
|
| Sparks
|
:)
|
01:02
|
| rudi
|
Yeah; something very much like that :)
|
01:02
|
| Sparks
|
there may be a few steps missing in there but... :)
|
01:02
|
| Sparks
|
rudi: Do you need anyone to help you with this guide?
|
01:03
|
| rudi
|
Sparks -- I'll know more once I have the chance to do some planning with it
|
01:03
|
| rudi
|
I hope that I'll be able to reuse/condense content from some existing docs
|
01:03
|
| Sparks
|
rudi: Okay. Just let me know.
|
01:03
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone else?
|
01:03
|
| Sparks
|
#topic All other busines
|
01:04
|
| Sparks
|
Okay... Who has something they'd like to talk about?
|
01:04
|
| * shaunm raises his hand
|
01:04
|
| Sparks
|
yes shaunm! :)
|
01:05
|
| shaunm
|
yay!
|
01:05
|
| shaunm
|
so there is a small group of people who are discussing coming together for a desktop help summit
|
01:05
|
| shaunm
|
we have interested parties from gnome, kde, xfce, and ubuntu
|
01:05
|
| shaunm
|
it's not a conference. it's a gathering of movers and shakers to bang out some common ground
|
01:06
|
| Sparks
|
docs ground?
|
01:06
|
| shaunm
|
I would very much like it if somebody from the fedora team could make it
|
01:06
|
| shaunm
|
strictly docs, yes
|
01:06
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: I'm sure we can fill a slot.
|
01:06
|
| shaunm
|
largely focused on desktop help. but if people find something interested to talk about for other types of documentation, I'm not going to shut them up
|
01:07
|
| shaunm
|
*interesting
|
01:07
|
| rudi
|
shaunm -- When and where?
|
01:07
|
| quaid
|
I will caveat that being a starfish-type organization, it's hard to get one person who can speak for direction in terms of common ground ... depending.
|
01:07
|
| Sparks
|
quaid: yes... but one person can at least be the liaison.
|
01:08
|
| quaid
|
my experience is we all get together in person and have great ideas, but moving those through the projects is different.
|
01:08
|
| shaunm
|
quaid: perfectly understood. but somebody who's involved with the fedora team can bring perspective that the rest of us don't have
|
01:08
|
| shaunm
|
nod
|
01:08
|
| quaid
|
I'm curious what thought there is toward virtual and widely inclusive v. physical and therefore exclusive?
|
01:08
|
| shaunm
|
so I've offered to organize and host the event, and if I organize it, it will be in Champaign, IL, US
|
01:09
|
| shaunm
|
and people seem to be perfectly happy to let me do that
|
01:09
|
| shaunm
|
we're tentatively talking about august 21-23
|
01:09
|
| shaunm
|
(I realize it's rather short notice)
|
01:09
|
| Sparks
|
shaunm: Can you send me a message to sparks@fedoraproject.org with the details, please?
|
01:10
|
| shaunm
|
yessir
|
01:10
|
| Sparks
|
I'll forward the information to the list so we can figure it out on our end.
|
01:11
|
| shaunm
|
great
|
01:11
|
| Sparks
|
Anyone have anything else?
|
01:12
|
| Sparks
|
5
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
4
|
01:13
|
| scramer
|
thank you
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
3
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
scramer: no problem
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
2
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
1
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
Thanks everyone for coming!
|
01:13
|
| Sparks
|
#endmeeting
|
01:14
|
