Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090625

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Sparks #startmeeting 00:00
Sparks #meetingtopic Docs Meeting 25 Jun 2009 00:00
Sparks #topic Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:00
Sparks Roll Call 00:00
* Sparks is here 00:00
* ke4qqq is here 00:00
uclugLee is here (still learning chat code) 00:01
ke4qqq welcome Lee! 00:01
Sparks Welcome all... Hopefully we'll have a good attendance tonight. 00:01
* ianweller is kinda maybe sorta here but not really 00:02
* rudi is here 00:02
ke4qqq isn't someone paying you to attend ianweller ??? :) 00:02
* Sparks ties ianweller to a chair 00:02
ianweller ke4qqq: my internet is being fuxxored 00:02
ianweller i want to burn my ISP 00:02
ianweller but 00:02
ianweller yeah 00:02
ke4qqq ahhhh ok 00:02
ianweller so no warning on whether i'm here or not :P 00:02
ke4qqq is that excuse the new 'my dog ate my homework' ? 00:02
* Sparks hopes that quaid will be here so he can talk about the licensing 00:03
ianweller ke4qqq: ok you ping salina0.ianweller.org and see when it stops responding. :P 00:03
Sparks ianweller: Can we all do that? 00:03
Sparks home grown DDOS 00:03
Sparks  :) 00:03
ianweller bluh 00:03
uclugLee Woohoo!!! My name is registered now...not really sure what that means, but.... 00:03
* Sparks gives everyone one more minute 00:05
ianweller hmm it seems like my internet is fairly stable now 00:05
ianweller whee 00:05
ke4qqq ianweller: have you done an unofficial review on ucluglee's package? 00:05
ianweller no 00:05
ianweller i should probably do that. 00:05
* Sparks makes a note to doc ianweller's pay for this week 00:06
ke4qqq do I nned to add it to the todo? 00:06
uclugLee Wait.......that didn't sound right. 00:06
ianweller ke4qqq: that would be extremely helpful 00:06
Sparks DO IT! 00:06
Sparks Okay... if everyone will take their seats... we'll get started 00:06
Sparks quaid: You here? 00:06
* radsy is here 00:06
* Sparks skips the CC licensing topic 00:07
Sparks is anyone here about the shared open-source style guide? 00:07
ianweller can someone recap that for me? 00:07
ianweller i'm kinda lost about it 00:07
Sparks ianweller: as soon as someone fills me in... sure 00:07
ianweller hah 00:08
ianweller mmmmk 00:08
ke4qqq I like the idea - but man someone needs to stand up and lead it - and come up with lots of volunteers 00:08
Sparks ke4qqq: Would you like to speak about it? 00:08
ke4qqq not really 00:08
pcutler Sparks: which one? (I'm here representing GNOME, at a docs conference 2 weeks ago we started working on a shared open source style guide) 00:08
Sparks #topic Shared open-source style guide 00:08
radsy we have our own internal style guide here 00:08
Sparks Okay... let's jump into it, then. 00:08
ke4qqq radsy: does it reference cms or ap? 00:09
radsy ap? 00:09
Sparks pcutler: What can you tell us about the style guide project. 00:09
Sparks  ? 00:09
rudi ke4qqq - neither 00:09
pcutler at a docs conference 2 weeks ago, we had various free software projects, including GNOME, XFCE, Ubuntu, Drupal and BSD together. 00:09
pcutler during our hackfest on Sunday, one group started working on the style guide, which is a wip found here: http://writingopensource.com/node/14 00:10
pcutler this is in it's infancy, so it's still really rough, and nowhere near complete 00:10
ke4qqq radsy - Associates Press - and Chicago Manual of Style 00:10
* Sparks wonders why I wasn't invited...  :( 00:10
pcutler i didn't spend a lot of time on it as I was doing GNOME hackfest stuff 00:10
Sparks pcutler: So what do you want/need from us? 00:11
ke4qqq radsy: any chance CES's is OPL-licensed? 00:11
pcutler Sparks: don't know yet, right now our goal is to get GNOME better integrated downstream and open communication to stuff like this 00:11
shaunm pcutler: discussing the open source style guide? 00:11
pcutler shaunm: yes 00:11
pcutler as far as they style guide, I was there, but wasn't active on that project 00:12
Sparks shaunm: If you have something to add please do. 00:12
radsy ke4qqq, i'm not sure how it's licensed, but i can probably find out for you 00:12
radsy leave it with me 00:12
pcutler one topic discussed was how to create our own version of the Chicago Manual of Style long term 00:12
ke4qqq that'd be awesome 00:12
rudi ke4qqq -- not at the moment, in fact, it's "Confidential" 00:12
radsy or that ^ 00:12
pcutler "our" as in all open source projects 00:13
Sparks I guess I'm just confused about what is needed from Fedora. I'm sure we'd be happy to participate and provide all our documentation as needed. 00:13
shaunm I saw some confusion in some places, so I'd just like to point out that the idea is not to get rid of project-specific style guides 00:13
ke4qqq they want us to participate in creation - plus fedora has an existing style guide - though it references chicago so it's incomplete in their scope. 00:14
* quaid slides in the back of the room 00:14
shaunm right, so any sufficiently large documentation project has its own style guide. same happens in the commercial sector 00:14
shaunm but project style guides deal with very specific things for that project, and happily leave the general stuff to a general style guide, like CMS or AP 00:15
Sparks okay. It would probably be a good time to get some folks working on updating our backend documents (like the style-guide and development documentation) 00:15
shaunm the idea is to make a free style guide that can be that general base for all of us 00:15
quaid certainly in the area of "is it x86, X86, etc." 00:16
quaid we do our readers a service in normalizing 00:16
Sparks Okay. Is there anyone that would like to raise their hand and volunteer to work as a liaison and help wrangle this from our end? 00:16
ke4qqq I don't mind acting as a liaison there 00:17
shaunm and note that I don't know how we're going about this. I'm not the one leading the effort 00:17
ke4qqq but I'd really like to see if we could get CES to release theirs under a free license. 00:17
Sparks ke4qqq: Thanks. I'll put you on it, then. I'd also like to be involved. Just keep me in the loop of what's happening, please. 00:17
ke4qqq np 00:17
rudi ke4qqq -- I'll be happy to follow that up. I don't imagine that it would be a big deal. 00:18
shaunm ke4qqq: sorry, I'm not familiar with CES. link? 00:18
quaid ke4qqq: +1 to an RHT addition 00:18
rudi shaunm, actually, ECS -- Red Hat Engineering Content Services 00:18
ke4qqq shaunm: Content Engineering Services - it's the docs team at RH 00:18
shaunm ah, thanks 00:18
ke4qqq wow - sorry for transposing the name 00:19
rudi ke4qqq - np. It's not in front of your face every day, like it is for some of us ;) 00:19
Sparks Okay, so ke4qqq is going to run with that ball. Does anyone else have anything on this topic? 00:20
Sparks shaunm: pcutler: Thanks for helping us understand what's happening here. 00:21
* Sparks moves back to the first topic since he saw quaid slip into the back of the room. 00:21
scramer Im curious what style guides we have already. the link posted a minute ago. doesn't contain much 00:21
Sparks scramer: I think that is something we are going to have to figure out. 00:22
Sparks #topic Status on CC license discussion 00:23
Sparks quaid: Do you have an update on the license discussion? 00:23
quaid short is, I've been on vacation since the last meeting, basically 00:23
quaid so I haven't moved the needl 00:23
quaid but bonus, I just started up gnote from scratch 00:24
quaid and added this as the first to-do item 00:24
quaid I'll bounce traffic back to the list asap. 00:24
quaid <eof> 00:24
Sparks  :) 00:24
Sparks cool... Does anyone have any questions? 00:24
quaid and dependencies I need to know about? 00:24
Sparks quaid: Thanks for the update... 00:26
Sparks moving on 00:26
quaid esp. dependencies :) 00:26
quaid so moved 00:27
Sparks  :) 00:27
Sparks #topic Bugzilla Component Changes - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table 00:27
Sparks So no one has really commented on this. So if no one has anything to say about it tonight I'm going to start the process of converting or changing or leaving alone. 00:28
* quaid takes a quick final peek 00:28
ianweller Sparks: did you talk to translators about abandoning the translation docs? 00:28
ianweller i don't want other subprojects getting angry 00:29
Sparks ianweller: yes. I've gotten multiple confirmation on blowing those files away 00:29
Sparks errr... abandoning them 00:29
* Sparks never throws anything away 00:29
quaid it's in Trac now iirc 00:29
quaid um, two questions 00:29
quaid docs-common has tools in it that are potentially useful, may never be packaged, and are in trac now 00:29
quaid do we not need a bug component because it's not a packaged thing? 00:30
ke4qqq and many of them still needed for things like RN 00:30
* quaid is going to go over his alotted two questions, but tries ... 00:30
ke4qqq and older versions of documents such as the IG for F10 00:30
quaid and example-tutorial, is that supplated by create_book? 00:31
quaid i.e., if we want a Fedora-specific example, we should put it in publican-fedora, right? 00:31
* quaid notes there may have been some gold in xml-normalize, but it's probably supplanted by pulican, too 00:31
* quaid has latency, argh 00:32
quaid <eoq> 00:32
Sparks quaid: We can put anything in bz that needs to be there. I plan on being very flexible with "our" product in bz. 00:32
quaid so, if we are doing team wide planning/task management with bz, we probably need to keep docs-common under it's new name 00:32
Sparks quaid: And I think many things are going to get "lost" because we will be using publican. 00:33
Sparks quaid: +1 to using BZ for... everything 00:33
quaid bzborg 00:33
Sparks ke4qqq: I'm not sure if I understand your statement 00:34
quaid docs-common tools are still needed 00:34
quaid for RN and F10 guides, i.e. "PP" (pre-publican) 00:34
ke4qqq perhaps I misunderstand then 00:34
ke4qqq and even the 'other dogs' that are included with RN post-publican 00:35
ke4qqq s/dogs/docs/ 00:35
quaid *woof* 00:35
Sparks IMO, we need BZ components for all active items not in the wiki... does that make sense? 00:36
Sparks If we decide to sunset a project or move it to the wiki we should get rid of the component in BZ to prevent confusion. 00:37
ke4qqq eg - we can't EOL docs-common til all of the docs that need docs-common 00:37
Sparks yes... that makes sense 00:37
ke4qqq are EOLed - which means at least another 12 months 00:37
quaid but we can rename it 00:37
ke4qqq yep 00:37
Sparks okay. 48 more hours and then I'm taking an ax to things... :) 00:38
Sparks make notes/updates on the page and let's take further discussion to the list. 00:39
Sparks is that okay? 00:39
ke4qqq worksforme 00:39
quaid k 00:39
Sparks This topic really started as a BZ clean up but turned out to be a clean up of Docs! 00:40
Sparks Anyone have anything else before we move on? 00:40
Sparks #topic CMS Update <-- ke4qqq 00:40
Sparks ke4qqq: Zikula... talk to us! 00:41
ke4qqq so lots of modules packaged 00:41
ke4qqq a few hiccups (licensing) 00:42
ke4qqq poelcat has volunteered to take the pm role 00:42
ke4qqq but we haven't yet had an initial meeting 00:42
quaid  ? 00:42
quaid I saw that traffic from John 00:42
quaid and is that just for the docs.fp.o site? 00:42
ke4qqq upstream has been very responsive to our concerns 00:42
quaid Zikula++ 00:42
Sparks quaid: I think this is for getting the initial instance of Zikula up... which will be docs.fp.o. 00:43
ke4qqq quaid: no this is for other fp.o uses as well I suppose 00:43
quaid both! neither! 00:43
ke4qqq so many groups have an interest 00:43
Sparks yes 00:43
Sparks Well... 00:43
ke4qqq and so many parties are needed 00:43
Sparks infra and art are needed initially to make sure everything is... perfect (like it would be any other way) 00:44
quaid it would help if we made it clear that this is a step in a process that still includes hope. 00:44
Sparks after that it should be an easy process to get other instances up and functioning 00:44
quaid for the other teams involved; unless Infra/Websites wants to move in parallel, too 00:44
ke4qqq and I am doing a poor job of getting it all done quite honestly, though Sparks has been packaging and stuff like a madman 00:44
Sparks ke4qqq: give me keys and I'll drive us to California 00:45
ke4qqq  :) 00:45
quaid this is a nice point for poelcat to step in; it's like a Fedora-ratchet, moving things along from doer to doer :) 00:45
Sparks yes 00:46
Sparks I think we'll be meeting the beginning of next week (I speculate) 00:46
Sparks Anyone have anything else? 00:47
Sparks #topic DocsProject wiki pages changes 00:47
Sparks ianweller: you still around? 00:48
Sparks ianweller: What's the status of getting wikibot out of the garage? 00:48
* ke4qqq needs to duck out of the meeting - sorry can't stay longer. 00:48
shaunm are you through your agenda items? 00:48
Sparks ke4qqq: thanks for coming 00:48
Sparks shaunm: about half way through the items... but the last half goes faster 00:48
* Sparks thinks ianweller is MIA. 00:49
shaunm I have something I'd like to discuss with the fedora docs team, but I don't want to interrupt your agenda 00:49
Sparks shaunm: Can you stick around for another ten min? 00:49
shaunm sure, no problem 00:49
Sparks shaunm: cool 00:50
Sparks #topic Status on Installation Guide 00:50
Sparks rudi: Any updates on the IG? 00:50
rudi Not much -- I'm working my way through the bug list and on some new material that engineers want incorporated 00:50
rudi Still hope to have a revised edition ready in the next week or so 00:51
rudi (but I think I said that last week) 00:51
Sparks  :) 00:52
Sparks rudi: Cool. If you need anything just let me know. 00:52
rudi Ta. 00:52
Sparks Anyone have anything for the IG? 00:52
Sparks #topic Status on Security Guide 00:53
Sparks Well... I submitted a new package for review. I think he likes it. 00:53
Sparks Have a couple of open tickets on transitioning some information from the wiki over to the guide. 00:54
Sparks And I'd like to make mention of radsy's SELinux guides in the document, somewhere. 00:54
Sparks radsy: do you have anything to add? 00:54
radsy on the security guide? 00:54
radsy no 00:54
Sparks Anyone have anything? 00:54
radsy it's not in my field of view right now 00:55
Sparks #topic Status on SELinux Guides 00:55
Sparks radsy: I'm guessing these are, though 00:55
radsy i'm trying to beat publican into submission with the user-guide translations, and i'm working on mysql/squid for the services-guide. 00:56
* Sparks offers his baseball bat 00:56
Sparks radsy: If I can help with the translations (or anything) please let me knwo. 00:57
Sparks I know that jjmcd has good experience with the translations, too (more than me) so he might be a good resource 00:57
Sparks as soon as he returns from Germany 00:57
Sparks Anyone have anything? 00:58
Sparks #topic Status on User Guide <-- danielsmw & rudi 00:58
Sparks rudi: Any changes to the UG? 00:58
rudi Nothing on the radar for this one. 00:58
Sparks Anyone have anything? 00:58
quaid hmm 00:59
quaid is that one being lead? 00:59
Sparks quaid: which one? The UG? danielsmw and rudi are assigned to it 00:59
quaid ok 00:59
* Sparks notes he hasn't seen danielsmw around lately 00:59
quaid sorry, was out of touch and missed that folks actually volunteered, bless 'em 01:00
quaid I thought danielsmw took an LOA? 01:00
Sparks did he? 01:00
quaid or am I discombobulating him with jmtaylor? 01:00
* Sparks will consult his notes after the meeting 01:00
quaid sorry Matthew if I am 01:00
Sparks Okay, anythign else on the UG? 01:00
Sparks #topic New Guides 01:00
Sparks Anyone working on or wanting to work on a new guide? 01:01
rudi I plan to work on an Installation Quick Start Guide for F11 01:01
rudi F12 rather 01:01
Sparks cool 01:01
quaid cool 01:01
Sparks step one: put in DVD 01:01
Sparks step two: press enter 01:01
Sparks step three: walk away 01:02
Sparks step four: return and enjoy Fedora goodness 01:02
Sparks  :) 01:02
rudi Yeah; something very much like that :) 01:02
Sparks there may be a few steps missing in there but...  :) 01:02
Sparks rudi: Do you need anyone to help you with this guide? 01:03
rudi Sparks -- I'll know more once I have the chance to do some planning with it 01:03
rudi I hope that I'll be able to reuse/condense content from some existing docs 01:03
Sparks rudi: Okay. Just let me know. 01:03
Sparks Anyone else? 01:03
Sparks #topic All other busines 01:04
Sparks Okay... Who has something they'd like to talk about? 01:04
* shaunm raises his hand 01:04
Sparks yes shaunm!  :) 01:05
shaunm yay! 01:05
shaunm so there is a small group of people who are discussing coming together for a desktop help summit 01:05
shaunm we have interested parties from gnome, kde, xfce, and ubuntu 01:05
shaunm it's not a conference. it's a gathering of movers and shakers to bang out some common ground 01:06
Sparks docs ground? 01:06
shaunm I would very much like it if somebody from the fedora team could make it 01:06
shaunm strictly docs, yes 01:06
Sparks shaunm: I'm sure we can fill a slot. 01:06
shaunm largely focused on desktop help. but if people find something interested to talk about for other types of documentation, I'm not going to shut them up 01:07
shaunm *interesting 01:07
rudi shaunm -- When and where? 01:07
quaid I will caveat that being a starfish-type organization, it's hard to get one person who can speak for direction in terms of common ground ... depending. 01:07
Sparks quaid: yes... but one person can at least be the liaison. 01:08
quaid my experience is we all get together in person and have great ideas, but moving those through the projects is different. 01:08
shaunm quaid: perfectly understood. but somebody who's involved with the fedora team can bring perspective that the rest of us don't have 01:08
shaunm nod 01:08
quaid I'm curious what thought there is toward virtual and widely inclusive v. physical and therefore exclusive? 01:08
shaunm so I've offered to organize and host the event, and if I organize it, it will be in Champaign, IL, US 01:09
shaunm and people seem to be perfectly happy to let me do that 01:09
shaunm we're tentatively talking about august 21-23 01:09
shaunm (I realize it's rather short notice) 01:09
Sparks shaunm: Can you send me a message to sparks@fedoraproject.org with the details, please? 01:10
shaunm yessir 01:10
Sparks I'll forward the information to the list so we can figure it out on our end. 01:11
shaunm great 01:11
Sparks Anyone have anything else? 01:12
Sparks 5 01:13
Sparks 4 01:13
scramer thank you 01:13
Sparks 3 01:13
Sparks scramer: no problem 01:13
Sparks 2 01:13
Sparks 1 01:13
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming! 01:13
Sparks #endmeeting 01:14