Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090910

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jjmcd #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:03:02 <zodbot_> Meeting started Thu Sep 10 00:03:02 2009 UTC. The chair is jjmcd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:03:02 <zodbot_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:03
jjmcd two minutes - he's not gonna show 00:03
jjmcd #topic Roll Call 00:03
* danielsmw 00:03
* jjmcd is here 00:03
* bcotton is here 00:03
* rudi is here 00:03
* jjmcd needs more windows to do this 00:03
jjmcd #topic Last week's action items 00:04
jjmcd danielsmw to package an editor for Scribite - where are we? 00:04:46 <danielsmw> jjmcd: I surveyed what would work with scribite and what had what features and such 00:04
danielsmw And I've decided on TinyMCE 00:04
* perspectival is here 00:04
danielsmw the problem I've run into is the lack of guidelines on javascript library packaging 00:05
danielsmw And especially js built with ant 00:05
danielsmw (which I didn't actually know was possible, who knew). 00:05
danielsmw As a new packager, I don't think I can handle that sort of task by myself. 00:05
danielsmw It's not a time thing, just a knowledge thing. 00:05
jjmcd Well, somebody has to be able to help with js, but ant? You may be on your own 00:06:11 <danielsmw> So I can still do it, but I'd really appreciate if someone would be willing to sit down iwth me one day and do it. 00:06:28 <danielsmw> There are actually pretty okay ant guidelines under Packaging/Java 00:06
danielsmw It's the mixture of the two that I don't understand. 00:06
jjmcd Oh, OK. What about whoever wrote those guidelines? 00:06
danielsmw I suppose I could ask them. The JS guidelines are still in draft, though. I'm not sure that there really even are guidelines, officially. 00:07:32 <danielsmw> Personally, it doesn't make sense to package javascript libraries. 00:07:38 <jjmcd> Perhaps having the background of writing the guidelines they will have the perspective to be able to guide you 00:07
danielsmw But I don't understand the going ons of Zikula 00:07
danielsmw and such. 00:07
danielsmw That's probably at least a start, you're right. 00:07
jjmcd Well, Zikula isn't sooo different from other web apps 00:08
danielsmw Okay, then I'll do that this week and hopefully get somewhere by the weekend. 00:08
jjmcd OK, I'll try to be around to offer what little I can 00:08
danielsmw Thanks, jjmcd 00:08
jjmcd Maybe mostly moral support 00:08
danielsmw  :-) 00:08
jjmcd The other items are Sparks, quaid and ianweller, none of whom are here 00:08
jjmcd ANything else on action items? 00:09
jjmcd #topic Release notes format changes 00:09
jjmcd OK, here I need some help 00:10
danielsmw I can offer moral support. :-) 00:10
jjmcd We talked about having all changes in tables, and only a little in the way of prose 00:10:48 <jjmcd> But there are a lot of apps that cross beats, and not all apps are covered by beats 00:11:11 <jjmcd> And oh yeah, Alpha was really lame, only about 20% of packages, so we don't really know what we have 00:11:30 <jjmcd> I am proposing to move the tables to the end, and organize them by rpm_group 00:11:50 <jjmcd> With an alphabetical index, people can find anything fairly easily 00:12:13 <jjmcd> Trouble is, it is big, but we don't really know for sure how big 00:10
jjmcd Any thoughts on that approach? 00:12
* danielsmw likes alphabetical indexes. 00:12
danielsmw Does it matter if it's too big, really? 00:13
danielsmw besides losing some style points? 00:13
danielsmw that might be a dumb question, I'm not familiar with RN so much 00:13
jjmcd I don't think so. We don't add a lot to translate 00:13
danielsmw okay. 00:13
rudi The other intrinsic problem is that the rpm groups don't always make much sense 00:14:51 <jjmcd> rudi, you got that right, but if I turn my head sideways, I can generally see how someone could imagine they belong the way they are 00:14:57 <danielsmw> that's true. lots of things belong in more than one category in reality, so the groups are occasionally confusing. 00:14
jjmcd Which leads me to believe that no grouping is perfect 00:15
rudi Indeed 00:15
jjmcd Example tables/index in http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/Download/f12alpha 00:15:40 <danielsmw> Although grouping it my rpm may encourage packagers to more carefully consider the groups they use. 00:15
jjmcd I was kind of thinking that, too 00:15
jjmcd With the index you can find what you are looking for 00:16
rudi Yeah -- it will be good if we can somehow apply some pressure in that direction 00:16
ryanlerch and not create new groups 00:16
ryanlerch or sub groups 00:16
jjmcd Some are just stupid, like Applications/Games vs games 00:16
jjmcd Why do you need both, pick one or the other 00:16
ryanlerch from memory, the networking one was a bit crazy too 00:17
jjmcd The list on fedorapeople is against rawhide. I expect F12 will be smaller than that, but we don't have a feel for how much smaller because alpha was so limited 00:18:23 <jjmcd> Yes, there are amateur radio apps in networking that have nothing to do with networking 00:19:02 <jjmcd> Also, there are some beats with a few minor changes, I think we need to drop them rather than adding fluff 00:20:15 <jjmcd> And I think we need to move embedded development out of development to the specialized group. It really goes with FEL 00:20:34 <jjmcd> even tho it has the word development. It doesn't fit with the rest 00:17
jjmcd rudi, are you pretty much there on installer? 00:21
rudi Well, I haven't got anything new :) 00:21
jjmcd I think I may have put some placeholders in there but not turned it into real prose 00:22
rudi I'll take another look 00:22
jjmcd I did go through the feature pages and tried to spatter stuff through the beats 00:22
jjmcd We were supposed to have the 'big' pots out yesterday 00:23
jjmcd So I intend to do what I can tomorrow and Saturday and then try to make pots saturday or sunday. The beats are nowhere near where I'd like, but L10N is waiting on us 00:24
rudi I'll pitch in to help with that 00:25
jjmcd I appreciate that rudi 00:25
jjmcd I'll be out of town Friday 00:25
rudi NP 00:25
jjmcd But except for a few interruptions, I'll be around otherwise 00:26:07 <jjmcd> The good news is we don't have to do all that po madness from 11 so it should be a little easier 00:25
jjmcd although I should check with glezos on that 00:26
rudi Yeah -- check. I'm assuming that we *will* have to do the po madness 00:26
jjmcd #action jjmcd to check with glezos on po's 00:26
jjmcd OK, anything else on release notes? 00:27
jjmcd I'm surprised noriko didn't come over 00:28
jjmcd We have no ke4qqq for Zikula so .... 00:28
jjmcd #topic Status on CC license rollout 00:28
jjmcd ANything new to report? 00:28
jjmcd hearing nothing 00:29
jjmcd #topic Guide needs? 00:29
danielsmw I haz guide needs 00:30
jjmcd Ahhhh, whatcha got? 00:30
rudi I know -- I'm the blocker there 00:30
danielsmw rudi: :-) 00:30
danielsmw a little, rudi, but I can still write content 00:30
rudi Yeppa 00:30
danielsmw rudi: Did I send you an email about what sections I wanted to cover for F11? 00:31
danielsmw I think I wrote it and may not have sent it 00:31
danielsmw doesn't matter, anyway, the point is 00:31
rudi I saw a link in IRC 00:31
danielsmw okay, good 00:31
rudi But you were offline by the time I read it -- I bookmarked it 00:31
danielsmw do you still have the link by chance? 00:31
danielsmw never mind, I got it 00:32
danielsmw https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Danielsmw/Desktop_Guide_tasks 00:32:41 <danielsmw> anyway, my proposal is just to work up through the first 5 chapters for F12 release. 00:32:48 <jjmcd> There is a lot of detail in the desktop beat that I wonder whether it belongs in the desktop guide 00:32
danielsmw jjmcd: I will take a look and see if perhaps it does 00:33
jjmcd thanks 00:33
danielsmw anyway, if anyone has any comment on what I've chosen to be ready for F12, now's your chance I suppose. 00:34:27 <danielsmw> Okay, well, I'll put something out to the list, but that's all I have to say. 00:35:03 <danielsmw> except, rudi: I really don't want to pressure you at all, because it isn't a big deal, but do you have an estimate on when you'll be ready? 00:33
danielsmw with the Xml skeleton? 00:35
jjmcd Looks to me like a good triage 00:35
rudi Still "RSN" -- next couple of days 00:35
danielsmw okay, that's fine. 00:35
rudi (although I know I said that two days ago!!) :) 00:35
danielsmw  :) 00:35
* danielsmw is done with his guide needs. 00:36
jjmcd OK, anything else on guide? 00:36
jjmcd s/?/s? 00:36
danielsmw  ?? 00:36
jjmcd <---- old PDP guy 00:37
* bcotton needs to actually work on the RPM guide, but doesnt require any external assistance at the moment (except maybe a cattle prod) 00:37:37 <danielsmw> jjmcd: yeah, i always get confused when regexs aren't closed on the end 00:37:47 <jjmcd> hehe - I think we all have that "the hurrier I go the behinder I get" syndrome 00:38:10 <jjmcd> danielsmw, I'm pretty ancient, esp. as this business is concerned. 00:38:35 <jjmcd> By the way, today is Dennis Ritchie's birthday, seems to me there should have been a lot more press about it 00:37
jjmcd #topic All other business 00:38
jjmcd Anything else for the good of the order? 00:39
rudi Anyone else here able to sponsor new package maintainers? 00:39
jjmcd 5 00:39
rudi (I think ianweller can) 00:39
danielsmw I need one, I'll have to ask ianweller. 00:40
jjmcd lets all gang up on the missing ianweller 00:40
rudi lolz 00:40
rudi We need to get some new packagers sponsored who are going to look after Publican dependencies 00:40
jjmcd Yes, I need to get my badge as well 00:41
rudi That's a current blocker for Publican 1.0 and the new Fedora brand package for 0.44 00:41
jjmcd rudi, how can we find out about that sort of thing? 00:41
rudi I raise it in a meeting? :) 00:42
jjmcd Hey - I just got an email from mister K&R himself! 00:42
jjmcd I suspected as much 00:42
jjmcd It would be nice to be able to identify those things before they become painful 00:43
rudi It only *just* became a blocker 00:43
jjmcd K 00:43
rudi (within the last couple of days) 00:43
rudi But I didn't want to rush the sponsorship process either 00:44
rudi It's important that we do things right. 00:44
rudi But yeah, it's been a few days without any activity yet, so now I'm making noise :) 00:45:23 <jjmcd> Yes, I agree. Seems like there are things we could predict, though. After all, it isn't like we don't have computers and stuff. 00:45
jjmcd OK, anything else? 00:45
jjmcd 5 00:46
jjmcd 4 00:46
jjmcd 3 00:46
jjmcd 2 00:46
jjmcd 1 00:47
jjmcd #endmeeting 00:47