Meeting:Release Notes IRC log 20090730

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Sparks #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting 15:05
Sparks #topic Roll Call 15:05
* Sparks 15:05
jjmcd Ack - I totally forgot about this ;-) 15:06
* rudi is here 15:06
Sparks jjmcd: Yeah, me too. I was trying to figure out why rudi was still up! 15:06
rudi lolz 15:06
* jjmcd was blogging on yesterday's meeting 15:07
Sparks #topic Last meeting 15:08
Sparks Okay from the last meeting I see... 15:08
Sparks that we agreed to use Publican for everything 15:08
Sparks that we needed three documents (right?) 15:08
jjmcd 3 formats? 15:09
Sparks three documents 15:09
Sparks 1) "normal" RNs 15:09
Sparks 2) "pretty" RNs (one-page by Marketing) 15:09
Sparks 3) things to know about upgrading 15:10
jjmcd Ahh yes, OK 15:10
Sparks The agenda from last week was: 15:10
Sparks 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs 15:10
Sparks 2. What products need to be generated. 15:10
Sparks 3. Using Publican for the RNs 15:10
Sparks 4. Training people to write beats. 15:11
Sparks Anything else we need to discuss? 15:11
jjmcd Perhaps today we should address products 15:11
Sparks okay 15:12
Sparks #topic RN Products 15:12
jjmcd We have agreement on 3 and last week we hit 1 15:12
Sparks Yes, and I've successfully gotten a Publican package into the repo now 15:12
Sparks So there are a few tweeks that need to be made but they aren't difficult 15:12
jjmcd I think there is the question of what to produce for online, how to present it, and what is actually in fedora-release-notes.rpm 15:13
Sparks Yes 15:13
jjmcd Yeah, getting the rpm actually built isn't a big deal IMO 15:13
Sparks So, IMO, we should provide the RN online in HTML, HTML-Single, and PDF 15:13
rudi +1 -- I really don't think anyone will miss ZIP and TGZ if they're not there... 15:14
Sparks jjmcd: ? 15:14
jjmcd But my question is what does that look like? The example you had wouldn't work for RN 15:14
Sparks What does what look like? 15:14
jjmcd The web page where the user selects what he wants 15:14
Sparks Ahh 15:15
rudi I think that ryanlerch has been working on that a little 15:15
Sparks Well, it will probably (hopefully) be in Zikula by then so this will be a moot point but... 15:15
rudi Trying to work out how to tidy up the index page a bit 15:15
Sparks I made a table that can be seen at docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide. 15:15
Sparks It isn't complete but is the basis for not having a complicated jumble 15:16
jjmcd Does that really change anything? The user still needs to be faced with an incredible array of choices. 15:16
jjmcd Well, that isn't terrubly useful 15:16
rudi (ryanlerch is ECS's graphics go-to-guy) 15:16
Sparks Actually use http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/ 15:16
Sparks My table is jacked up, apparently 15:16
jjmcd the security guide only has a few languages, not 12 releases, 42 languages, live versus now 15:16
Sparks Lots of choices isn't a problem. Being able to clearly see the choices is the problem 15:17
Sparks why 12 releases? 15:17
jjmcd We keep RN's online for past releases 15:17
jjmcd 1512 products per release 15:17
Sparks Hold on... 15:18
rudi I think it's really important to have that archival material important; but does it need to be right there in the face of the user who's probably looking for the latest stuff? 15:18
jjmcd You have like a dozen for security-guide 15:18
Sparks We can group the different releases into their own tables and provide links to those at the top of the page... 15:18
jjmcd rudi: I'll buy that 15:18
Sparks but how do you get 1512 products per release? 15:18
jjmcd whoops, I added in the 12, forgot the 2 15:19
jjmcd OK, only 252 15:19
Sparks How do you get 252? 15:19
jjmcd 42 langs times 3 formats times 2 (we keep the original for live as well as most reent) 15:20
Sparks Well, if we sort by language and each language has three options then it shouldn't be complicated. 15:20
Sparks sort language alphabetically 15:21
jjmcd I'm not sure we really need that but it's what we've been doing 15:21
Sparks No, what I've seen is a jumble of language codes which is NOT user friendly 15:21
jjmcd Hmmmm, with help from L10N we could have a language selection leading to a table of releases/formats 15:21
Sparks There is a BIG difference between the release-notes and the selinux-user-guide page 15:21
jjmcd Yes, hundreds of docs verses a handful 15:22
Sparks But the way the RN languages are presented is not good 15:22
Sparks it is very confusing 15:22
jjmcd I agree, but RN's presented like SG would be much worse 15:22
Sparks You can add every language you want to under the SELinux and everything will be easy to find 15:23
jjmcd I'm not really thrilled with a 1000 line long list 15:23
Sparks But it wouldn't be 1000 lines 15:24
Sparks just 42 15:24
Sparks sorted alphabetically by language 15:24
jjmcd So you choose the release on a separate page? 15:24
Sparks We'd put each release in it's own table to break it up 15:24
Sparks nah, just stack the tables with links to the table at the top of the page or something 15:25
jjmcd Oh, no, a link to previous releases which looks like the current, that might work 15:25
Sparks but you could do separate pages 15:25
rudi Or current-2 on the main page, and everything else on another page 15:25
Sparks sure 15:25
Sparks Might be interesting to break them all up on different pages just to see the hits 15:26
jjmcd Yeah 15:26
Sparks Of course this is a near-pointless conversation if we do get Zikula stood up before then 15:27
jjmcd Why? We still have the question as to how to present it 15:27
Sparks Yeah, but we might have a completely different set of ways to present it then 15:27
Sparks drop down menus and other sexy things 15:27
jjmcd Well, I haven't played with Zikula enough, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference. Personally, I'm mostly hoping to get away from that stupid CVS  ;-)) 15:28
Sparks Well, I think Zikula will automate a few things for us. 15:29
Sparks And we won't be waiting for hours while the docs.fp.o site updates 15:29
jjmcd The release notes pages is already php, we could do drop downs and other goodies if we wanted 15:30
jjmcd But it is kind of a pain to do anything when you have a bunch of character sets you can't read 15:30
Sparks We could... I'm just not that talented anymore. If someone wants to do it I say go for it. 15:30
Sparks Yes 15:30
rudi I might forward this conversation to ryan when I see him in a few hours :) 15:31
Sparks  :) 15:31
jjmcd OK, I'll go play with something on my local zikula instance and see if a vison comes down from the heavens, but a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds like good possibility 15:31
Sparks Okay 15:32
Sparks rudi: good for you? 15:32
rudi All good 15:33
Sparks #agreed a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds good for presentation on docs.fp.o 15:33
Sparks jjmcd: What's next? 15:33
jjmcd OK, so what about f-r-n.rpm? Are we going to try to separate by lang? 15:33
rudi Before we move on.... 15:33
Sparks rudi: Go ahead 15:33
rudi I thought that we should probably talk about the "minor docs" 15:34
jjmcd Yeah 15:34
* Sparks has always been confused by the "minor docs" 15:34
rudi These are currently packaged with the release notes, but I really don't think that they belong there. 15:34
Sparks What are they? 15:34
Sparks And why are they there? 15:34
jjmcd These are the docs that can't drink 15:34
rudi lolz 15:34
rudi Readme 15:34
Sparks Ha! 15:35
rudi About Fedora 15:35
rudi Readme-burning-isos 15:35
jjmcd readme, readme-burning-isos, homepage, etc 15:35
rudi readme-live-images 15:35
rudi yeah 15:35
Sparks I understand the "About Fedora". Why the others? 15:35
rudi Legacy, I presume 15:35
jjmcd About-Fedora shows up in yelp, but I wonder how many people ever trip across the others 15:35
jjmcd Should they be in yelp too? 15:36
Sparks Well... if we aren't presenting them in yelp why are they there? 15:36
rudi In some ways, their scope makes them look lke ideal wiki contenders 15:36
Sparks Couldn't we integrate it into a guide better? 15:36
jjmcd Currently they are text 15:36
rudi But static docs lend themselves better to localisation 15:36
rudi and these docs have been *extensively* localised 15:37
rudi (I presume because they're short and therefore attractive projects) 15:37
jjmcd Perhaps about-fedora contains links to these docs instead of putting them in the rpm 15:37
Sparks Well, can we either make them guides onto themselves or fold them into another guide 15:37
Sparks jjmcd: +1 15:37
rudi jjmcd -- at the very most. 15:38
jjmcd homepage is a different Q tho 15:38
Sparks What is homepage? 15:38
jjmcd What you get when you open Galeon 15:38
jjmcd or maybe its epiphany 15:39
rudi A page that loads in certain browsers if you start the browser without a net connection 15:39
Sparks Ahhh 15:39
jjmcd In at least one of them, you get it even if you have a connection 15:39
rudi Heh 15:39
jjmcd I think the connection thing used to be the case for firefox but isn't anymore 15:39
* Sparks notes that FF starts http://start.fedoraproject.org 15:39
rudi I think it's awful; all it can do is confuse users into thinking that they're online, when they're really not 15:39
Sparks Well, I think it should be separate from the RNs 15:40
rudi Sparks +1 15:40
Sparks I don't like bundling all this stuff together 15:40
jjmcd We need to understand what browsers use it and why 15:40
rudi And if Galeon or something else needs it; it should belong to that package 15:41
Sparks We need to identify the something else 15:41
jjmcd If it's one browser I agree, but I think there are multiples 15:41
rudi Or should be packaged up as a dependency for whoever needs/wants it. 15:41
rudi (Or they should get their browsers to point to something more useful... this is 2009....) 15:41
jjmcd Exactly, rudi 15:41
Sparks yes 15:42
jjmcd But we need to identify the affected browsers and contact their developers 15:42
Sparks jjmcd: Want to handle that? 15:42
jjmcd I guess I can do that 15:42
rudi As for "About Fedora"... 15:43
Sparks #action jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project 15:43
rudi (sorry -- am I getting too far ahead?) 15:44
jjmcd I've wanted an excise to see what browsers we have 15:44
jjmcd lynx uses it even if you are connected 15:44
Sparks jjmcd: Yeah 15:46
Sparks rudi: Go ahead with the "About Fedora' 15:46
rudi I can see the importance of that if it shows up in Yelp; but it doesn't really have anything to do with the RNs 15:47
rudi I just wonder if there's a better home for it... 15:47
rudi (With yelp itself if that's the only place people will ever see it?) 15:48
rudi (And who would miss it if it wasn't even there?) 15:50
jjmcd Well, mostly it's recruiting 15:51
Sparks I think it should be packaged separately 15:52
Sparks I think it has its place in the OS but it is separate from the RN 15:52
rudi +1 15:52
jjmcd f-r-n.rpm currently contains all the OS docs installed on the users system. Do we buy a lot by breaking it up into multiple packages? 15:53
rudi Well, it may only be two packages (three if we have to keep homepage) 15:53
Sparks Well, that's less to download when there is an update of one piece 15:53
jjmcd Yeah, but about-fedora and homepage are pretty tiny 15:54
jjmcd We will add to the space we take on the live cd by breaking them up 15:54
Sparks How much space? Is it negligable? 15:55
jjmcd Its pretty small, but then every byte on the LiveCD is precious 15:55
Sparks I agree 15:55
Sparks Who is in charge of the LiveCD project? 15:55
jjmcd Dunno? Is that Jeroen? 15:55
Sparks I don't know. But if that is our blocker we should contact those folks 15:56
jjmcd I gotta boogie here pretty soon, but I will go ahead and run a test to see what the price actually is 15:57
rudi Well, if we can at least get the Live-Images and Burning-ISOs docs out of there this time around, that's a start :/ 15:57
Sparks DavidZeuthen 15:57
jjmcd that's a new name to me. I think RelEng spends a lot of time stressing over it each release 15:57
Sparks rudi: That's true. removing those docs will reduce the overall size that we've been pushing 15:57
rudi ...and, more importantly, complexity and redundancy... 15:58
Sparks jjmcd: Jeremy Katz and Douglas McClendon too 15:58
Sparks rudi: Yes 15:58
jjmcd Maybe we add to Yelp an "Additional DOcumentation" topic that has links to install, security, etc 15:59
Sparks #action jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs 15:59
Sparks jjmcd: +1 15:59
Sparks #idea break up all documents that are currently packaged as f-r-n.rpm into separate RPMs 16:00
rudi #idea -- don't package any that we don't know that we have to 16:00
Sparks #idea move Readme-burning-isos and readme into a guide 16:00
Sparks anything else we need to capture? 16:00
rudi I think that was it :) 16:01
jjmcd OK, I gotta go, but I have a few action items (which I needed like a hole in the head) 16:01
rudi That was my "wo minutes of minor docs hate" 16:01
Sparks  :) 16:01
rudi jjmcd -- before you run 16:01
jjmcd  ? 16:01
rudi Just a heads up that I branched f12 tonight 16:01
jjmcd cool 16:01
rudi (In case you didn't see) 16:01
jjmcd appreciate it 16:01
rudi And loaded in some dummy content that you can pull down and build :) 16:01
jjmcd OK, so master is sstill F11, but we will change that after the next update to get in changes and new translations 16:02
Sparks jjmcd: I'm going to do a blog on the beats here in a minute 16:02
rudi Yeah 16:02
jjmcd good deal 16:02
Sparks jjmcd: Is there a link to the beats for f12? 16:02
jjmcd wiki/Documentation_Beats 16:03
Sparks cool 16:03
Sparks anything else? 16:03
rudi Not from me :) 16:03
Sparks jjmcd: you? 16:03
jjmcd nope 16:03
rudi We seem to average one agenda item per hour :) 16:03
Sparks rudi: Yeah but we do get a lot done 16:04
Sparks  :) 16:04
Sparks Okay... 16:04
Sparks #endmeeting 16:04