QA/Meetings/20090513

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Contents

Attendees

  • Jesse Keating (f13)
  • Adam Williamson (adamw)
  • Jóhann Guðmundsson (viking_ice)
  • Will Woods (wwoods)
  • James Laska (jlaska)
  • John Poelstra (poelcat)
  • Kevin Fenzi (nirik)

Previous meeting follow-up

  • [wwoods] - write a few more upgrade cases (encrypted root upgrade)
    Been doing a lot of upgrades this past week, but haven't documented them.

Autoqa update

No updates this week. Wwoods noted that most time was spent testing blocker bugs.

F-11 Test Day Feedback

As we approach our final F11 Test Day, an idea was raised by User:Robertmwilliams about how best to solicit feedback. Several ideas were raised including, mailing list blast, blog, formal survey. Under the Keep It Simple Silly model, adamw recommended an email blast to fedora-test-list@ while bcc'ing maintainers involved with F11 test day. Jlaska took an action item to follow up next week.

F-11-GA Prep

  • Blocker bugs (by component) - http://tinyurl.com/qzjey2
  • Schedule - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/Schedule
    • Blocker Bug review hosted by jkeating on May 11, and May 12 - 35 OPEN blocker bugs (down from the ~78 or so on Sunday) ... so the blocker bug meetings were effective at reducing number of the blocker bugs
    • An additional blocker bug meeting will be hosted next Monday, May 18, 2009 ... stay tuned for announcement.

While discussing blocker bug meeting, f13 noted the timing was not ideal. Some discussion took place around the best timing, and poelcat will update the Fedora 12 schedule with proposed bug review times for review.

How's my driving?

Suggestions for improving the weekly QA meeting. Are there topics you'd like to see more, or less, of in these meetings. Is the timing appropriate?

No suggestions were offered.

Open discussion

iBus Test Day

adamw reminded us about the scheduled iBus test day tomorrow (May 14th, 2009).

QA Needs to know - What is Fedora?

viking_ice asked ... I would like QA to pressure the board ( or whomever is on top of the food chain ) to decide if we are targeting aunt flu or not to get that in the clear once and for all and work can be started by the community to either better support aunt flu or not! I'm a bit worried when things are being run with this gray aria attitude we end up with an "FDS" incident on our hands

The team discussed whether an official statement was needed from the Fedora QA team. The consensus was no official interaction was needed, but noted that high-level guidance would improve focus around prioritizing test efforts, blocker bug review, and release criteria. Current efforts cast a very wide net, which may not be in line with the overall goals of the Fedora project.

libfprintd patch

wwoods raised awareness of an fprintd bug affecting fingerprint readers on several laptop configurations (including those used by wwoods and jlaska). Wwoods asked for team review whether this bug was a blocker or a day-0 worthy. Consensus was to request a release note for the bug and line up for day-0. f13 noted that he would accept this request as it may impact the F11 Fingerprint reader feature.

  • 500460 - libfprint fails to read commands from SGS Thomson reader (ThinkPad T43)

F-12 Alpha status

Viking_ice asked for a status update on the Fedora 12 Alpha decision. f13 directed folks to the meeting summary https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-May/msg00581.html

Autoqa Deps Checking?

Josh Boyer asked for more information on autoqa deps checking. Wwoods and f13 noted that deps checking after the repo udpates is planned for autoqa. Wwoods noted these tests are intended to be informational (non blocking) tests.

Upcoming QA events

Action items

  1. [adamw] - to file a ticket to get bodhi fixed
  2. [adamw] - ask bugzilla guys to add a link from the bugzilla fields description page to the wiki page, for fedora
  3. [jlaska] - Send informal test day feedback survey to fedora-test-list and test day participants
  4. [poelcat] - Propose updated F12 schedule with blocker bug dates

IRC Transcript

jlaska | Fedora QA Meeting ... starting shortly May 13 11:58
adamw | mor-diddly-ning May 13 11:59
* | f13 May 13 12:00
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | agenda - https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-May/msg00579.html May 13 12:00
jlaska | Hey folks May 13 12:00
Viking-Ice | Hellú... May 13 12:00
jlaska | :) May 13 12:00
jlaska | as usual, I'll be recording notes and will send out the minutes after (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20090513) May 13 12:01
wwoods | wooo yeah May 13 12:02
adamw | are you fingering your stinkpad again, wwoods? May 13 12:02
jlaska | okay, I think we have critical mass May 13 12:02
jlaska | adamw: heh, that's private message material :) May 13 12:02
* | Viking-Ice also is dealing with critical mass.. May 13 12:02
jlaska | anyone else interested in the Fedora QA meeting, feel free to shout for the logs May 13 12:02
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | Previous meeting follow-up https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20090513#Previous_meeting_follow-up May 13 12:03
wwoods | I left the stinkpad at home so I wouldn't be tempted (also so I can do some functional/exploratory testing from home) May 13 12:03
f13 | brb, have to go get my tea May 13 12:03
jlaska | we're light on action items from last week, which is a nice brief change of pace May 13 12:03
jlaska | f13: okay May 13 12:03
jlaska | wwoods: I've got you up for the first item ... May 13 12:03
wwoods | we're not exactly light on action, though May 13 12:03
jlaska | # [wwoods] - write a few more upgrade cases (encrypted root upgrade) May 13 12:04
wwoods | blerg. well, I've been *doing* plenty of upgrade cases May 13 12:04
wwoods | just haven't documented it yet May 13 12:04
jlaska | okay, we have a few in there now that lili created (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Upgrade_system) May 13 12:05
jlaska | feel free to add any to the mix you think are important May 13 12:05
wwoods | right on May 13 12:05
wwoods | have those been added to the results template? May 13 12:05
wwoods | (and do we have one for F11 final?) May 13 12:05
jlaska | yeah May 13 12:05
jlaska | wwoods: not yet, I'll create one shortly ... have a few outstanding questions before I create it May 13 12:06
Viking-Ice | I performed an upgrade through anaconda dvd on an encrypted default partition layout with third party packages installed on the host system and it went without a hitch.. May 13 12:06
jlaska | Viking-Ice: awesome, hopefully we'll get a check mark on the test matrix for that case! May 13 12:06
jlaska | okay next up ... May 13 12:06
jlaska | # [adamw] - update BugZappers/BugStatusWorkFlow wiki page to include MODIFED->CLOSE process for rawhide bugs during freeze May 13 12:06
adamw | done, with cherries on top :) May 13 12:07
jlaska | is this the right thread... https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-May/msg01034.html ? May 13 12:07
adamw | yes May 13 12:07
jlaska | great, any other updates and changes you plan on that front? May 13 12:07
jlaska | s/and/or/ May 13 12:08
f13 | My only comment is that when we're in a freeze, I"d prefer if things didn't get CLOSED until the build is tagged for rawhide. May 13 12:09
f13 | (if it's destined to be in the release, IE a blocker) May 13 12:09
adamw | f13: yeah, the page says outside of the freeze period May 13 12:09
adamw | (and the email) May 13 12:09
--- | knurd_ is now known as knurd May 13 12:09
f13 | k May 13 12:09
adamw | don't have anything else planned there really, no, except to file a ticket to get bodhi fixed, and ask bugzilla guys to add a link from the bugzilla fields description page to the wiki page, for fedora May 13 12:09
jlaska | okay, noted May 13 12:10
jlaska | that's a good action item for all in the meeting though, please follow-up to the fedora-devel-list thread with questions/comments/concerns about the updated workflow May 13 12:11
jlaska | okay, that's it for action items from last week. May 13 12:11
jlaska | Did I miss recording anything, or would anyone like to provide updates from this past week? May 13 12:12
jlaska | okay ... I'm hearing a no on that :) May 13 12:13
jlaska | on to the agenda ... May 13 12:13
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | autoqa update (http://autoqa.fedorahosted.org) May 13 12:14
jlaska | wwoods: any updates on the autoqa front? May 13 12:14
wwoods | nothing to report - buried in blocker testing May 13 12:14
jlaska | any plans, or open issues, for this coming week? May 13 12:15
wwoods | I'd assume that the priority for the coming week is to test the RCs May 13 12:15
Viking-Ice | is autoga on ice until GA May 13 12:16
Viking-Ice | and by autoga I mean autoqa May 13 12:16
jlaska | wwoods: working the open autoqa issues for the F11 milestone is a priority, followed by test execution against the RC May 13 12:17
jlaska | we can chat more if balancing the two is becoming too difficult May 13 12:17
Viking-Ice | well blocker takes preceding May 13 12:18
Viking-Ice | goes without saying.. May 13 12:18
jlaska | Viking-Ice: it's definitely important May 13 12:18
jlaska | okay, changing gears ... May 13 12:20
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | F-11 Test Day feedback May 13 12:20
jlaska | rwilliams asked earlier this week how we were incorporating F11 test day feedback into the F-12 test day planning May 13 12:21
Viking-Ice | bugs filed by during the test day ? May 13 12:21
jlaska | there were a few small threads on the mailing lists asking for feedback on the fedora test day images ... and good feedback there May 13 12:21
jlaska | Viking-Ice: that's one option May 13 12:21
jlaska | I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas for improving them May 13 12:22
jlaska | I wanted to ask the group what they felt was the best way to gather that feedback May 13 12:22
adamw | it's an interesting question...i haven't really had a lot of feedback about how to do test days better...have you jlaska? May 13 12:22
jlaska | is a mailing list post + blog enough? May 13 12:22
adamw | we could add a little 'suggestions box' section to each test day wiki page May 13 12:22
adamw | (not actually a box, just an email address or something) May 13 12:22
jlaska | ah true ... May 13 12:22
Viking-Ice | just start a thread on -test list May 13 12:23
jlaska | Viking-Ice: I think that's going to be needed, I was just worried it'll be lost May 13 12:23
jlaska | I'd like to reach out to the maintainers who test days were hosted for ... perhaps they liked or disliked certain things May 13 12:23
Viking-Ice | good point May 13 12:23
adamw | yeah May 13 12:23
jlaska | I'd love a survey option, but I don't think we have a good FOSS solution there? May 13 12:24
Viking-Ice | testers are more like soldiers in the trenches following orders May 13 12:24
Viking-Ice | the only thing we can complain about is the orders not being clear enough.. May 13 12:24
* | nirik really needs to package or find someone to package limesurvey. May 13 12:25
Viking-Ice | we should try to dump the wiki with regards to report test results during f12 cycle May 13 12:25
jlaska | nirik: that's the one ... I was trying to remember the name (thx) May 13 12:25
jlaska | Viking-Ice: I'm planning to revisit the semantic+mediawiki solution, but I'm holding off on that until a valid proof of concept run post-F11 May 13 12:26
jlaska | okay, so I've captured suggestion box on each test day page, fedora-test-list thread May 13 12:26
Viking-Ice | come up with bohdi like voting "worked" and "No Go" not followed by a bug number May 13 12:26
jlaska | Viking-Ice: For now, I'm just thinking about collecting feedback from F11 test day participants on how we can improve F12 test days May 13 12:27
Viking-Ice | anyway I like us to inter grade reporting on test day and bodhi so the reporters are working always in the same/similar environment May 13 12:27
adamw | guh. surveys. when i hear the word survey, i reach for my revolver. May 13 12:28
jlaska | adamw: not a fan? :) May 13 12:28
adamw | i'd go low-tech - just send out a simple email and bcc all the developers we had for f11 test days. May 13 12:28
jlaska | okay May 13 12:28
jlaska | KISS May 13 12:28
adamw | there's not SO many that it'd be impossible to collate the feedback manually, i don't think. May 13 12:28
adamw | yeah. May 13 12:28
jlaska | seems sensible, okily dokily :) May 13 12:28
Viking-Ice | no need to bcc just point the developers to the thread on test list May 13 12:28
adamw | i find it's best to throw as few roadblocks as possible May 13 12:29
Viking-Ice | and mention that thread on the test day page May 13 12:29
adamw | if we point them to another list they have to open their archives or click on the link to the web archive or whatever May 13 12:29
adamw | it's probably going to be a short set of questions anyway, just put them right in the email May 13 12:29
adamw | gives it that personal touch May 13 12:29
jlaska | Viking-Ice: adamw: good ideas, much appreciated ... I'll follow up on this next week May 13 12:29
adamw | let me know if i can help you on any of this May 13 12:29
Viking-Ice | deepends on how much personal they wan to get.. May 13 12:29
adamw | :) May 13 12:30
jlaska | Viking-Ice: hey now, not that personal :) May 13 12:30
jlaska | okay ... next up <drumroll> May 13 12:30
Viking-Ice | not finger reader wwoods personal roger.. May 13 12:30
jlaska | what a poor command-name choice May 13 12:30
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | F-11-GA Prep May 13 12:30
adamw | whatever happened to good old fingering May 13 12:30
jlaska | adamw: there was an ol' fashioned version? May 13 12:31
* | Viking-Ice lol... May 13 12:31
jlaska | I don't have tremendous updates on F-11-GA, just a few quick notes May 13 12:31
jlaska | in case you missed it, this past Monday + Tuesday f13 lead a Blocker bug review on irc May 13 12:31
jlaska | I've been using the blocker bug component breakdown report created by wwoods - http://tinyurl.com/qzjey2 May 13 12:32
jlaska | which hilight 35 OPEN blocker bugs (down from the ~78 or so on Sunday) May 13 12:32
jlaska | so the blocker bug review certainly was effective at reducing the overall count May 13 12:33
wwoods | mostly retesting and closing stuff that was in MODIFIED May 13 12:33
jlaska | right on May 13 12:33
jlaska | there are 9 in MODIFIED now that are in need of testing (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?action=wrap&bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bugidtype=include&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&classification=Fedora&deadlinefrom=&deadlineto=&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=blocked&field0-1-0=keywords&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&long_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&product=Fedora&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=anywordssubstr&type0-1-0=nowords&value0-0-0=446452%20495965%20484397%20497399%20487202%20480593&value0-1-0=Tracking&votes=&=&bug_status=MODIFIED) May 13 12:34
buggbot | <http://tinyurl.com/qfgs9z> (at bugzilla.redhat.com) May 13 12:34
jlaska | eeek May 13 12:34
wwoods | and some things getting moved off the blocker list because they weren't blocker-worthy May 13 12:34
jlaska | f13: will you be leading the charge on round#2 of the bug reviews? May 13 12:34
f13 | when is round 2? May 13 12:34
jlaska | the schedule lists next mon+tues May 13 12:34
jlaska | http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-releng-tasks.html May 13 12:34
f13 | that seems entirely too late May 13 12:34
wwoods | I'd suggest we make sure round 2 happens after we get an RC with anaconda .52 May 13 12:35
f13 | we really screwed up this end game this release May 13 12:35
jlaska | +1 May 13 12:35
jlaska | f13: take notes for the QA post mortem :) May 13 12:35
f13 | well.. May 13 12:35
f13 | not quite. May 13 12:35
f13 | We're supposed to go live on the 26th, which means I need to have golden images no later than the 21st. May 13 12:35
f13 | Monday is the 18th May 13 12:35
Viking-Ice | to late May 13 12:35
adamw | the bugzilla query link's too long... May 13 12:36
f13 | we were supposed to be in RC phase as of yesterday, which would mean all blockers closed or modofied May 13 12:36
wwoods | and we ain't there. May 13 12:36
jlaska | adamw: agreed ... start with this http://tinyurl.com/qzjey2 May 13 12:36
f13 | modified May 13 12:36
f13 | we're not there yet May 13 12:36
f13 | We probably should have had blocker review done a week before the RC date May 13 12:36
poelcat | f13: historically we have staged late on fridays... that can't happen any more? May 13 12:36
f13 | poelcat: not for a final release May 13 12:36
f13 | poelcat: for a final release we need as many mirrors staged as possible. May 13 12:36
poelcat | got it May 13 12:37
f13 | we're more lenient with late staging for developmental releases May 13 12:37
f13 | This is my fault for not checking the blocker review date earlier May 13 12:37
jlaska | f13: do you think another blocker bug review is in order, or do you feel Mon+Tues was sufficient May 13 12:37
jlaska | I know I still have a few RETESTING requests to process from those meetings May 13 12:37
f13 | jlaska: we shoudl do it again on Monday May 13 12:37
f13 | in theory it'll be much smaller May 13 12:37
jlaska | yeah May 13 12:38
f13 | although we may find some things in our not quite RC testing May 13 12:38
poelcat | f13: so for f12 move blocker meetings back... starting a week earlier? May 13 12:38
f13 | yeah, May 13 12:39
f13 | blocker review should be one week prior to RC, so that we get a realistic blocker list and a week to focus efforts on them. May 13 12:39
Viking-Ice | is it not best to start holding weekly meetings after the blocker bugs have been established ? May 13 12:40
f13 | Viking-Ice: that's the idea May 13 12:40
jlaska | Viking-Ice: I wouldn't be opposed to that May 13 12:40
f13 | once a week until you reach GOLD May 13 12:40
f13 | or as needed May 13 12:40
Viking-Ice | yup May 13 12:40
jlaska | perhaps the size of the blocker list should speak to the frequency of the meetings May 13 12:40
jlaska | no need to schedule if empty (I guy can dream right) May 13 12:40
jlaska | but we get weekly reviews on the schedule as a baseline? May 13 12:41
Viking-Ice | I would say as soon as we have the first blocker it's needed to hold regular meetings because the list will only grow from there... May 13 12:41
Viking-Ice | the meetings would just be shorter... May 13 12:41
f13 | Viking-Ice: I don't think that scales well. May 13 12:42
f13 | we already have F12 blockers May 13 12:42
* | jlaska taking notes for post-mortem May 13 12:42
f13 | how's this. May 13 12:42
f13 | A week before any compose date, blocker review should be done for the appropriate blocker May 13 12:42
f13 | IE a week before beta compose date we shoudl review beta blockers May 13 12:42
Viking-Ice | well I say treat them from birth to prevent delays.. May 13 12:43
<-- | mcepl [n=mcepl@49-117-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has left #fedora-meeting ( ) May 13 12:44
jlaska | I agree with Viking-Ice, but I don't feel we are setup yet to handle that kind of live processing May 13 12:44
jlaska | so f13's suggestion addresses the immediate issue around timing of the meetings May 13 12:44
jlaska | and would handle the exceptions that aren't able to self-review May 13 12:44
f13 | individuals are welcome to review their own blockers (and encouraged) May 13 12:44
jlaska | poelcat: what's your take from a schedule wrangler perspective? May 13 12:45
f13 | but to try and drag lots of people into a meeting to look at the blockers every week is a bit... tedious May 13 12:45
Viking-Ice | that kinda is comes with the job.. May 13 12:45
Viking-Ice | common process to most people others need to be reminded May 13 12:45
jlaska | agreed, these meetings should be for exceptions May 13 12:45
poelcat | jlaska: we can add more dates, but only if there are solid anchor points May 13 12:45
poelcat | "compose" usually happens over a range of days May 13 12:46
poelcat | i'll propose/add some dates to the f12 taskjuggler and then you all can decide May 13 12:47
jlaska | thanks! ... we can follow up next week (of offline) for feedback/review May 13 12:48
f13 | poelcat: well, the RC composes should target the tuesday prior to the release May 13 12:48
f13 | I guess I haven't clarified that May 13 12:48
jlaska | only other thing I had on the F-11-GA was the RC phase, which we've discussed briefly here May 13 12:49
* | poelcat will try to make the dates/tasks a little more specific on f12 and we can tweak from there May 13 12:50
jlaska | f13: I just got your feedback, will review after the meeting here May 13 12:50
jlaska | poelcat: thanks, adding note. May 13 12:50
jlaska | I'll be creatinga test matrix "real soon now" (ie. within a day) May 13 12:51
wwoods | I'm doing some smoke testing on the current very-early-RC images May 13 12:52
jlaska | I'm trying to improve some documentation in the matrix for "how to test" ... I should have that done soon May 13 12:52
f13 | I am too May 13 12:52
adamw | i'll try and experiment with installing it in virt images later today May 13 12:52
jlaska | I've discussed with the anaconda-devel folks about the criteria to use for assessing anaconda blockers for the RC phase ... May 13 12:53
* | nirik notes if anyone wants to in their vast spare time, the Spins SIG could use some testing of spins images. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Test_Matrix May 13 12:54
jlaska | the concensus seems to be that the bugs most likely for blocker consideration are bugs introduced since beta that are data corrupter, panic, fails to install in "reasonable" configuration May 13 12:54
jlaska | there's always exceptions, that's why we make rules ... but that was the general "rule of thumb" for now May 13 12:54
jlaska | any other comments/concerns/ideas around the impending F-11-RC? May 13 12:55
adamw | is it worth throwing a 'please test with the rawhide installer from mirrors' note up on test-list? May 13 12:56
jlaska | adamw: I'd like to ... I'll follow up with you after the meeting May 13 12:56
adamw | we can't get the 'not really RC' images out to da community, but they can at least look at e.g. partitioning issues that way May 13 12:56
f13 | adamw: I thought that was a given constant. May 13 12:56
jlaska | adamw: just wanted to clarify that was still valid test feedback before May 13 12:56
jlaska | f13: I wasn't clear on that yet May 13 12:56
Viking-Ice | jlaska: we need to know what they considered reasonable configuration May 13 12:56
jlaska | Viking-Ice: the test matrix was considered a reasonable configuration May 13 12:57
adamw | f13: do you mean, 'well of course we'll send that email', or 'people should know to test a rawhide install every day of the year, damnit!'? :) May 13 12:57
f13 | adamw: the latter May 13 12:57
adamw | ah. well, in an ideal world for sure, but sending out a 'we're about to release f11, y'know, please give it a shot if you're twiddling your thumbs' message can't hurt May 13 12:57
f13 | indeed May 13 12:57
jlaska | cool May 13 12:58
jlaska | okay, changing topics ... May 13 12:58
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | How's my driving? May 13 12:58
jlaska | hopefully ending on a light note today ... May 13 12:58
jlaska | just wanted to give folks an opportunity to say what the like, dislike about the QA meetings May 13 12:59
adamw | er, can we throw in something else quickly first? May 13 12:59
jlaska | what topics should we cover that we aren't ... what are we covering, but shouldn't May 13 12:59
adamw | iBus test day... May 13 12:59
jlaska | adamw: amen, thank you :) May 13 12:59
Viking-Ice | jlaska: never will be good bwahahahah May 13 12:59
Viking-Ice | just kidding excellent May 13 12:59
adamw | iBus test day is tomorrow, this is the input method for asian (chinese / japanese / korean, all the languages with ridiculously huge alphabets) languages May 13 13:00
jlaska | https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-May/msg00444.html May 13 13:00
adamw | if you write in those languages it's extremely important to you, if you don't, you haven't got a clue what's going on May 13 13:00
adamw | if you know people who use cjk input, or who are involved in communities which likely do, try and let 'em know about the test day, we really need real-world testing May 13 13:00
adamw | my wiki post on the test day is http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/05/12/ibus-test-day-on-thursday/ May 13 13:01
jlaska | ooh I haven't caught up on that yet, thx for link May 13 13:01
wwoods | it's also for indic languages IIRC May 13 13:01
adamw | true, i haven't looked at exactly what languages it covers yet May 13 13:02
jlaska | jens and akira have been active in responding to fedora-test-list questions on the topic May 13 13:02
jlaska | so feel free to continue discussion there, or join in the fun tomorrow May 13 13:03
adamw | jlaska: just a note that of course 'tomorrow' is a lot earlier in actual asian countries than it is for us :) May 13 13:03
jlaska | adamw: good point ... 6 hours vs 18 May 13 13:03
adamw | so if my word-spreading is going well there'll probably be people around quite early...are any of the people we're expecting to have there actually in asia? May 13 13:03
jlaska | oh yeah May 13 13:04
adamw | great May 13 13:04
adamw | so long as we have someone from qa / development around it should be fine May 13 13:04
jlaska | lili will be respresenting for us, and there are a host of folks from around APAC May 13 13:04
adamw | awesome May 13 13:04
jlaska | should be a good opportunity to get more chatter going on the channel for those TZ's May 13 13:04
Viking-Ice | I have matter to mention I would like QA to pressure the board ( or whomever is on top of the food chain ) to decide if we are targeting aunt flu or not to get that in the clear once and for all and work can be started by the community to either better support aunt flu or not! I'm a bit worried when things are being run with this gray aria attitude we end up with an "FDS" incident on our hands May 13 13:05
adamw | yeah, sorry for stirring the pot on that one =) May 13 13:05
f13 | Viking-Ice: the board has already been working on this issue for the past month or so May 13 13:05
jlaska | :) May 13 13:05
f13 | Viking-Ice: we've been trying to decide "What is Fedora" May 13 13:05
f13 | please see the board reports May 13 13:05
adamw | url to the board reports? May 13 13:06
Viking-Ice | f13: great so we can expect results and ruling from them no later then yesterday.. May 13 13:06
f13 | Viking-Ice: if only it were that easy May 13 13:06
stickster | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings May 13 13:06
jlaska | stickster: thx May 13 13:06
f13 | Viking-Ice: this is an extremely thorny issue that has potential to cause massive disruption within our project. The board is taking it's time to do it right. May 13 13:06
jlaska | certainly an issue with wide impact ... we'll certainly want to keep posted May 13 13:07
* | jlaska notes ... 'certainly' is the word of the day May 13 13:07
f13 | coitenly May 13 13:08
Viking-Ice | f13: I'm aware of the issue and potential effect it can have.. May 13 13:08
adamw | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2009-04-29#What_is_Fedora.3F , https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2009-04-22#What_is_Fedora.3F May 13 13:08
f13 | Viking-Ice: then you're also aware that this isn't a decision that can be made likely, or without lots of input and consideration. May 13 13:09
jlaska | Viking-Ice: is there anything that needs action in this meeting around that topic? May 13 13:10
Viking-Ice | pretty much sir I dont have shit for brains you know... sometimes I wish I had thou "ignorance is a bliss" May 13 13:10
adamw | do we have any particular perspective on this issue that we should feed back to the board? May 13 13:10
adamw | do we, as QA, have a belief about what Fedora ought to be, as a project or distribution? May 13 13:11
adamw | personally I don't care, I just want to *know* :) but you guys? May 13 13:11
* | jlaska agrees May 13 13:11
jlaska | difficult to target testing and document procedures without May 13 13:11
adamw | not your personal opinion necessarily (provide that independently), but something that comes out of QA as a group May 13 13:11
f13 | nobody wants to make the hard decision, but they all certainly want somebody to. May 13 13:11
Viking-Ice | I think we just need a result what ever it might be is not my concern .. May 13 13:11
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | Open discussion May 13 13:11
Viking-Ice | atleast not at this stage.. May 13 13:12
Viking-Ice | another one is Breaking deps deliberately May 13 13:12
Viking-Ice | clearly something is wrong with the process here.. May 13 13:12
jlaska | adamw: do you think it's important for QA as a team to have a stance on this one, I see us more as consumers ... but could be wrong May 13 13:12
adamw | no, i don't, I just wanted to ask if anyone else did :) May 13 13:13
jlaska | heh, I'm with you. I could be convinced, but don't see the need for it presently May 13 13:13
jlaska | others? May 13 13:13
wwoods | It might be good to note that a clear focus makes it easier to target testing. May 13 13:14
jlaska | definitely (or certainly in keeping with today) May 13 13:14
Viking-Ice | agreed May 13 13:15
--- | stickster is now known as stickster_food May 13 13:15
jlaska | f13: If you're looking for support, that could be used. Providing high-level guidance would help the Fedora QA team improve test procedures and documentation along with focusing test efforts May 13 13:15
adamw | right, just to make it clear that it's not bikeshedding, it's an issue that directly affects our work May 13 13:15
wwoods | exactly. I do have some strong personal feelings about this stuff but I'm leaving that aside. May 13 13:16
Viking-Ice | as we all should May 13 13:16
jlaska | f13: if there are wrist bands or bumper stickers the QA team can use to show support for the cause, let us know :) May 13 13:16
wwoods | but having a clear focus - regardless of the exact *nature* of that focus - makes us much, much more effective May 13 13:16
Viking-Ice | agreed May 13 13:17
f13 | understood May 13 13:17
wwoods | of course, the task of deciding what that focus should be is.. tricky, at best May 13 13:17
Viking-Ice | First and for must try to eliminate all the gray area's in the process. May 13 13:17
adamw | well, i think we all agree on that one May 13 13:18
wwoods | typically closer to "endless fiery assache" May 13 13:18
jlaska | yeah, I think we've covered this topic well May 13 13:18
jlaska | any other open discussion items for today? May 13 13:18
wwoods | a quick question! May 13 13:18
jlaska | wwoods: go, you've got the floor May 13 13:18
Viking-Ice | well want I mentioned before May 13 13:18
wwoods | I have a patch that fixes libfprint for certain laptops May 13 13:18
wwoods | (n.b. that "certain laptops" includes mine and jlaska's) May 13 13:19
jlaska | my thinkpad is one of them :) May 13 13:19
wwoods | libfprint is a F11 feature and we have the patch in-hand May 13 13:19
jlaska | is there a bz? May 13 13:19
wwoods | request freeze-break, or 0-day update? May 13 13:19
jlaska | I'd vote day0 May 13 13:20
Viking-Ice | 0 day May 13 13:20
jlaska | wwoods: do you think the exposure to live image users is high enough to crack the iso's / May 13 13:20
wwoods | dunno. it only affects older thinkpads AFAICT May 13 13:20
Viking-Ice | this whole fingerprint cult that support false security dont need a freeze-break May 13 13:21
* | Viking-Ice ducks.. May 13 13:21
wwoods | and... if you have a liveCD, you can't save your fingerprint on it anyway May 13 13:21
wwoods | if you have a liveUSB key, you can update libfprint May 13 13:21
wwoods | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500460 May 13 13:21
buggbot | Bug 500460: medium, low, ---, pingou, NEW, libfprint fails to read commands from SGS Thomson reader (ThinkPad T43) May 13 13:21
jlaska | wwoods: sounds like a prime candidate for release note and day0 ? May 13 13:21
wwoods | anyway, yeah, agreed May 13 13:22
wwoods | thanks for the sanity check May 13 13:22
Viking-Ice | any updates on the alpha removal ? May 13 13:22
jlaska | wwoods: that also explains why it doesn't work on my laptop ... thanks :) May 13 13:22
Viking-Ice | is it a go or a no go.. May 13 13:22
f13 | finger prints are no less insecure than easy to guess passwords. May 13 13:22
f13 | er, more insecure May 13 13:23
jlaska | viking-ice: Alpha removal? May 13 13:23
f13 | stupid double negatives May 13 13:23
Viking-Ice | Alpha milestone removal May 13 13:23
f13 | wwoods: IMHO since fingerprint is a feature of F11, I"d say freeze break May 13 13:23
jlaska | Viking-Ice: I'm not aware of that issue May 13 13:24
jlaska | f13: that's a slippery slope May 13 13:24
f13 | Yes I know, but enabling the feature to work on a fairly common class of laptop is something I'd accept a freeze break for May 13 13:24
f13 | I'm just giving my individual vote May 13 13:24
jlaska | true true May 13 13:25
adamw | jlaska: he's talking about f13's thing about having no alpha for f12 May 13 13:25
adamw | (man, f13's nickname is getting progressively more confusing :>) May 13 13:25
jlaska | adamw: Viking-Ice: sorry, gotcha May 13 13:25
Viking-Ice | f13: btw I would be faster if I snatched your laptop to fake your finger print ( which I would just take from one of the keys ) than playing any guessing games with your password May 13 13:25
wwoods | it's a trivial patch, but it's easily delivered as a day0 May 13 13:25
Viking-Ice | easy to guess or not May 13 13:25
f13 | Viking-Ice: if you snached my laptop, you wouldn't need any of my passwords. May 13 13:25
jlaska | wwoods: if a solid case was made outlining impacted users of the feature ... it sounds like you'd be able to get it in May 13 13:26
f13 | Viking-Ice: you can just dump the memory, adjust it slightly and bring it back up on a different platform bypassing any locks on it May 13 13:26
Viking-Ice | f13: depending on my goal May 13 13:26
jlaska | f13: do you have any updates on the F12 Alpha ... I believe the decisionw as made but I can't find the thread at first glance May 13 13:26
adamw | can you say OFF TOPIC! May 13 13:26
f13 | the auth method is irrelevant. May 13 13:26
f13 | Viking-Ice: read up on the TEMPEST project May 13 13:27
Viking-Ice | back to alpha May 13 13:27
f13 | jlaska: releng voted to drop alpha, I do believe FESCo approved May 13 13:27
nirik | yes, schedule was approved. May 13 13:27
* | jlaska looks for minutes May 13 13:27
jlaska | can someone drop a link to the mail thread, if they have it handy? May 13 13:28
jlaska | (for the benefit of the 2 people that read the logs) May 13 13:28
adamw | Viking-Ice: and yes, the "breaking deps deliberately" thread is the pinnacle of fail...sigh May 13 13:28
nirik | jlaska: I don't know that jds2001 posted any yet. ;( I can whip up some or ask him to. May 13 13:28
wwoods | I'm sure I've mentioned it, but I can't read f-d-l anymore due to an evolution bug May 13 13:28
Viking-Ice | It's some thing I think releng need to revisited and see if it can be improved or (docs ) made clearer May 13 13:29
jlaska | http://bpepple.fedorapeople.org/fesco/FESCo-2009-05-08.html May 13 13:29
adamw | wwoods: see https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-4696 May 13 13:29
wwoods | and I actually feel a lot better these days May 13 13:29
adamw | rjones decided it would be a fine idea to push an update for f10 that depended on a package that was...not in f10. May 13 13:29
jlaska | nirik: thanks, I found a link to the meeting minutes May 13 13:29
wwoods | maybe sometime after release I'll actually fix that May 13 13:29
f13 | https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-May/msg00581.html May 13 13:29
f13 | oh. May 13 13:29
jlaska | f13: thanks May 13 13:29
jlaska | okay gang, let's wrap it up for today May 13 13:30
adamw | wwoods: but you'll miss my mixer threads! my PRECIOUS MIXER THREADS! :) May 13 13:30
jlaska | :) May 13 13:30
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Fedora QA Meeting | closing ... <tick> <tock> <tick> ... May 13 13:30
wwoods | I actually read the thread on a different machine earlier, but yeah. "Don't do that." May 13 13:30
adamw | going once, going twice... May 13 13:30
Viking-Ice | should releng revisited that ? May 13 13:30
Viking-Ice | "It's some thing I think releng need to revisited and see if it can be improved or (docs ) made clearer " May 13 13:31
f13 | that's not releng May 13 13:31
Viking-Ice | process I mean May 13 13:31
f13 | that's FESCo and/or packaging committee May 13 13:31
jlaska | ... going thrice ... May 13 13:31
* | wwoods sits on hands May 13 13:31
Viking-Ice | something is amiss here and needs improvements.. May 13 13:32
adamw | isn't dep checking for updates planned for autoqa, btw? May 13 13:32
jwb_ | wha? May 13 13:32
jlaska | okay ... let's keep the love going on #fedora-qa ... May 13 13:32
jlaska | wrapping up here May 13 13:32
jwb_ | wait... May 13 13:32
jlaska | thanks everyone! May 13 13:32
jlaska | jwb_: ? May 13 13:32
jwb_ | curious about what adamw just said May 13 13:32
--- | jlaska has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting_channel for meeting schedule May 13 13:32
Viking-Ice | jlaska: why the rush.. May 13 13:32
adamw | jwb_: oh, i might be wrong. i thought checking updated packages for dependency sanity was one of the things autoqa was aiming to cover, eventually May 13 13:33
adamw | f13 or wwoods would be able to answer May 13 13:33
f13 | dep checking after the repo udpates yes May 13 13:33
wwoods | it's planned, certainly May 13 13:33
jwb_ | and what happens from there? May 13 13:33
f13 | which is different from the recently requested dep checking /before/ the repo udpates May 13 13:33
wwoods | it's not a simple problem May 13 13:33
wwoods | right May 13 13:33
jwb_ | f13, right May 13 13:33
f13 | jwb_: essentially the same thing that happens with the rawhide dep check May 13 13:33
jwb_ | ok May 13 13:34
f13 | mail gets sent and we hope that somebody fixes it May 13 13:34
wwoods | instead of blocking the push, we check after the push - and I guess you could comment/unpush afterward May 13 13:34
* | adamw notes jlaska crying into his beer in the corner May 13 13:34
jlaska | heh :) May 13 13:34
jwb_ | so basically what mschwendt was doing a while ago May 13 13:34
jwb_ | just, automated May 13 13:34
f13 | yes May 13 13:34
jlaska | you guys can chat away ... I've got to jet May 13 13:34
wwoods | but at first it's going to be strictly informative May 13 13:34
jlaska | I'll send minutes to the list folks, thanks everyone May 13 13:34
jwb_ | ok, that's cool May 13 13:34
jwb_ | thanks May 13 13:34
--- | mbonnet is now known as mbonnet_ May 13 13:38
--- | mbonnet_ is now known as mbonnet May 13 13:38
--- | stickster_food is now known as stickster May 13 13:49

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