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ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-apr-19

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1 Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Thursday 19-APR-07
Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Thursday 19-APR-07

F7 Test 4

1. In need of a good release note related to the hda-->sda change. People upgrading from a previous version could experience problems depending on how the partitions are labeled. No one officially took this task. 1. wwoods mentioned some problems he's seeing
mkinitrd weirdness lingering
a lot of sata/pata weirdness still being tracked down
wwoods hoping to go through the buglists and sort stuff out but so far there's no clear patterns
1. notting reports that the comps stuff was approved. He will complete and send mail to rel-eng@fp.o 1. f13 reports seeing lots of "fun" with the extras multilib stuff. 1. jeremy reports that overall it's probably worth doing another tree in the near-ish future, but we're definitely not "there"
Coordination of sub-groups

1. jeremy is going to get a weekly rawhide live image up later today or tomorrow am and that should hopefully get us some more testing 1. f13--rel-eng is the group that drives this meeting and these topics, but we'll want some known points of people to go to for various things.
wwoods-QA
jeremy-installer and such
davej-kernel
if you'd like to represent some group for Release Engineering type discussions, feel free to add yourself to the wiki
need a "Representatives" section in the ReleaseEngineering page to distinguish between representatives and folks actually in releng
1. jeremy determined that anaconda does not need upd-instroot changes; it looks like it might work and switch back without anything needing doing 1. Discussion about changing default icons
notting-are there political concerns with changing icons?
wwoods-Is it considered important to have an all-new look for F7?
mclasen-when we did switch to echo early in the cycle, we always said that we'd reevaluate late in the cycle
don't have a recommendation right now
need to consult with some people first; sent question to art list and try to give recommendation by tomorrow.
When should we branch CVS for F7?

1. Several suggestions were made:
Merge anyway even if we don't have the hardware--deal with some pain
The Day After Tomorrow?
At test4 release
At the final freeze?
1. No definitive decision was made though folks seemed to think near final freeze was best.
Regular meeting schedule

Decisions made were: 1. Every Monday 1. Extra meetings tossed in when releases are happening for more the state of the tree type things. 1. f13 will mark it in the wiki that Mondays are our regular meeting slot 1. Regular meeting time was not specified
Mailing list for rel-eng?

Decisions made were: 1. Continue to use the rel-eng@ alias for requesting tags and "please do something for me" not necessarily a "lets discuss this topic" or "here is the state of hte tree." Revisit usage after F7 1. Send tree status to fedora-devel
Where to send meeting notes to?

1. Meeting notes will be sent to fedora-devel only to avoid cross-posting mess
What do we report to FESCO?

1. no strong consensus 1. ideas and comments
jwb-this is a pointless question
wwoods-what sort of decisions does FESCO need special notification of?
f13-RTFM? (Read the Fine Minutes)
wwoods-maybe decisions to slip schedules, change how freezes are done, etc..?
jwb-how we decide to handle freezes, slips, etc
Open Floor

1. wwoods
I'm going to try (fingers crossed) to get RHEL QE involved with testing F7--which *might* result in a bunch of folks who are not intimately familiar with Fedora.. customs and traditions; reporting bugs and such
if I hear back about the st firmware before test4, I'll bring it up again. otherwise.. F8
1. poelcat
I updated the feature listing... there was some discussion on how in/out certain features were
have we ever considered the possibility of an audio meeting, e.g. SIP call? It might provide for a faster meeting
1. f13
I _really_ want to spin a golden tree at some point tomorrow (2007-04-19) instead of on Monday
IRC Transcript

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<tr id="t14:04"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} warren changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting</td><td><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: ping</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">What was that about the last kernel being busted?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it was busted.  badly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">new kernel is building that is fixedificated</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and should be done any minute now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">we reverted, and jeremy pushed a new rawhide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ah cool</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so, lets try to drag wwoods in here.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">wwoods: ping?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">busted is .309...?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">what's up? oh excellent</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">3094 is the good one</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">yeah, I hear .3091 was busted but I haven't touched it - .3088 is in rawhide today</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: rawhide the second at least</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">rawhide 2: the fixening</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">heh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ok..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">dwalsh says the fixfiles/restorecon segfault is fixed in -8, but -7 is what I currently see in rawhide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting -- Test 4 status</td><td><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so, I haven't caught up on mail, where are we at?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">OTOH the bug seems fixed in -7, so I don't know whether to request inclusion of -8 or just let it go</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: we're finding bugs, we're fixing bugs, we're rinsing and repeating</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: you have any insight there?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: looking</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I'm satisfied with the SCIM debacle for now.  I'm working with tagoh to fix it in an ideal way after Test4.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: -7 should be good enough</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">okay, I'll mark that bug CLOSED RAWHIDE</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 looks at the blocker tree</td><td><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: cool</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I put the kdm/ConsoleKit bug on the blocker list - rdieter wants it for test4, it's already got a patch..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">OTOH - rebuilding chunks of KDE, and untested patches = scary</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">opinions?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">test it? :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">right, but we need a test package built first, and AFAIK we don't have that yet</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">bah, it's KDE, can't be any more broken... (:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">build it, toss it on people, have people test</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">quick test 4 question: people are aware that for some machines fc6 -> fc7 will cause a change from hda to sda?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">does fstab get updated in the upgrade?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: fstabs are setup with labels by default</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we should be giving better guidance in the case of not now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">f13, notting: so, we should try to get it in for t4?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">(still need to write the part for the release notes)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy: yes by default :P</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">LetoTo: non-default = "good luck!"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">wwoods: get a test build asap, go from there</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: there is no way to just figure it out and do a migration.  this is part of why we switched to labels long ago</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jima: thats fedora policy? :P</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">LetoTo: automated migration could break badly in mixed ide/sata or ide/scsi environments.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">It is fedora policy. There's a million different ways you can screw up your system, and we can't be expected to compensate for all of them</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">labels work less ideal when you install fc6 and fc7 on the same box in different partitions with root=LABEL=/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: like I said, we should be detecting it now (I'm going to be testing in a little bit) and saying "please put the labels back"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">or rather - it should be</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">LetoTo: the installer detects that and doesn't create duplicate label names.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">(usually)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: anaconda won't set up two partitions on the same box with different labels...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">correct, the second one is usually LABEL=/1 iirc</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ok, then no worries then.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">and /boot1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jeremy, how does it handle RAID-1?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I just personally always change it, because it gave me more problems then it solved in the past. time to upgrade my tricks :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">labels in two partitions that are identical...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">It'd be nice if we were using slightly more descriptive labels, like "f7_root"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">you could just label it with the uuid</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: raid superblocks give a unique identifier, so we used to mount them by that.  but then we fixed mount to dtrt with raid and label them now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">notting: that's probably what we're going to end up doing for f8 :/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">heh yuck</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">jeremy: or sha1 the fs superblock, or...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ah fun.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ok, any more Test4 status discussion?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">there's a lot of mkinitrd weirdness lingering</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and a lot of sata/pata weirdness that I haven't gotten nailed down</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I'm hoping to go through the buglists and sort stuff out but so far there's no clear patterns</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: the comps stuff was approved. i'll get that done and send mail to rel-eng@fp.o</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: is the sata_sil fix you mentioned going to be in .309x (where x > 1 and not broken)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: it's in 3094 I believe</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">cool</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><td class="action" colspan="2">* notting wonders how he always has hardware whose storage drivers does not break</td><td><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">we don't buy weirdo no-name laptops or build our own computers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: probably</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I'd love it if we had free budget so when there's some hardware that some poor soul cannot get working</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">we just buy one of the damn things</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">notting: I have hardware that breaks (:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">make it work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I bought a Pogo box...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and sell it on ebay when we're done</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> davej</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">wwoods: and buy it again when we regress in an update? :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">davej: well, yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">there's that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">heh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">hrm.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> davej</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">we'll never have complete coverage, but I agree we should at least try and get some of the more common-case hardware.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm seeing lots of "fun" with the extras multilib stuff.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: so the basic summary is that it's probably worth doing another tree in the near-ish future, but we're definitely not "there"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">yeah, I don't have any machines with ATI video, nor sata_nv, nor pata_amd, nor sata_sil</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jeremy: ok.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and I have no idea what other drivers may be flaky</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">wwoods: well, i'm not sure it's specific to those controllers.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">i guess the mkinitrd on xenblk inclusion on dom0 died out on the list</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting -- Coordination of sub-groups</td><td><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> jima</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">wwoods: err, sorry, wrong thread ;)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jima: if it turns out there's a common cause for it all, I will be very very happy</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm going to get a weekly rawhide live image up later today or tomorrow am and that should hopefully get us some more testing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I completely love it when one fix closes 97 vaguely-related bugs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">So rel-eng is the group that drives this meeting and these topics, but we'll want some known points of people to go to for various things.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">wwoods: my boxes are all ata_piix or pata/sata_via</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">wwoods for QA obviously, jeremy for installer and such, davej for kernel...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: same.. except for the ide_pmac (ha ha ha SPLODE)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> davej</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: ditto, though I got a bunch of jmicron controllers sent to me this week.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">Should we start listing these on the ReleaseEngineering page?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: sure!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">sounds like a good idea</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> davej</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">people writing stuff about me on the internets? damn those guys..  meh, what's one more page. +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">how's this, if you'd like to represent some group for releng type discussions, feel free to add yourself to the wiki</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">hrm, no polecat</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> poelcat</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">i'm here :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: probably need to direct that to all said groups, some of which maynot be here right now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">oh, I can't type right.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">notting: yeah, broadcast announcement</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">sorry for being late</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">probably need a "Representatives" section in the ReleaseEngineering page to distinguish between representatives and folks actually in releng</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">I hear that I missed the test4 status part of the meeting, can I still bring up one thing related to it ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">sure</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">default icon theme</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">it's not echo?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">I tried to improve the echo coverage by including svgs, but that turns out to be problematic</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">so I will have to take the svgs out again</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">and we did say at some point that we need to decide on going with echo or not around the last test release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">the lightbulb does look a bit weird</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> davej</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mclasen: can you un-dent the trashcan icon whilst you're at it ? :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">davej: thats one of the svg issues</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><td class="action" colspan="2">* lmacken strolls in from class</td><td><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and the trashcan still turns into the old bluecurve one when you drag a file over it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Echo looks a lot like Tango...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">other than that, though, I'm pretty happy with Echo..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">wwoods: thats a coverage issue; echo is missing that icon</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e"> lmacken</th><td class="text" style="color: #539e9e">when all else fails... go with the upstream (default gnome icons (tango based))</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">tango is not the default gnome icon theme</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e"> lmacken</th><td class="text" style="color: #539e9e">i know, but the new gnome icons are tango-ish</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">but the gnome-icon-theme got more and more tangoified over the last cycle</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">for better or worse</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">so, our choices are: 1) echo - new, lacking in coverage 2) bluecurve - works, but boring 3) upstream - not tested in fedora?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 leans toward 2</td><td><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mclasen: how many packages need to change to change the default?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">the way I see it, we either declare echo good enough, or switch back to bluecurve</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">1 package</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">jeremy: does anaconda need upd-instroot changes?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">potentially</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:32"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jeremy goes to look</td><td><a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:32"><td class="action" colspan="2">* lmacken would like to see us use gnome's default icons.. but i guess we already "bought in" to bluecurve and echo a while ago</td><td><a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it looks like it might work and switch back without anything needing doing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">are there political concerns with changing icons?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">notting, how so?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">i dunno. annoying the echo team, or something</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">Is it considered important to have an all-new look for F7?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">notting, we can't possibly annoy the echo team more.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I really like Echo thus far, personally, even though I expected not to</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">wwoods: we have balloons!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">notting: when we did switch to echo early in the cycle, we always said that we'd reevaluate late in the cycle</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">so I don't think people will be upset</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">We'll still be *including* it, right?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, they will be, but they already are.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">it's not our fault it isn't done yet</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">in fact, some people were offended by us "pushing" echo before it was ready</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mclasen: people will _always_ be upset :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">though art-list has become silent lately</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't have a strong opinion in any direction</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mclasen, nobody is accountable to it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jeremy is willing to support whatever mclasen thinks we should do </td><td><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mclasen, I wouldn't call a dozen mail/day silent</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">wwoods: sure, the discussion is only about default, not about inclusion</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">warren: I meant that there is no constant flamewar anymore</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">we're having a release team meeting?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">How far away from "ready" is it?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jwb_gone: yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">f13, i thought they were on mondays?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jwb_gone: generally, yes.  on monday we said we wanted to just see where we were again on thursday</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">wwoods: there is a lot of work left to do</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">jeremy, f13: ok sorry</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">jeremy: I don't have a recommendation right now; need to consult with some people first; do you want to make this change for test4 ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">mclasen: if you can get an answer by tomorrow, sure, if not, no.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mclasen: we've got less than a month until the release, so.. if you're fairly confident it could be ready by then, I'd be inclined to keep it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mclasen: I think we need to have test4 match what we're doing for the final release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jwb_gone agrees</td><td><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">sure, I'm persueded</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">ok, I put the question out on the art list, so I'll wait for some responses from the echo people</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">test4 needs to be _a lot_ more solid than the past few test releases</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">and try to give a recommendation by tomorrow</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">if you're not sure it can be done for the release, let's turn it off now so that test4 matches final</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we've gotten a fair bit of negative feedback with the previous test releases, and it'd be good to be able to follow up with a rocking test4</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Release Engineering Meeting -- When should we branch CVS for F7?</td><td><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">after we merge</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">notting, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">notting: and if we don't get hardware in place in the next month?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">i saw we merge anyway and deal with some pain</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: merge anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">The People's Glorious Merging must be driven ever forward!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so then do we want to stake a date for merging with or without hardware?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">and this is a more general question to.  At what point after the final test release do we want to branch CVS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:43"><td class="action" colspan="2">* nirik thinks sooner is better than later... if only to blast extras with a thick layer of icy freeze. ;) </td><td><a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">because there is going to be a lull where we don't want to introduce new things to CVS, but we're only taking specific bug fixes...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">nirik: extras: The Day After Tomorrow?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We need better automated enforcement so folks don't allow devel to fall behind FC-7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: at test4 release seems practical to me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">in the general case</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">hmm... rawhide pulls from FC-7...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">so there is no published tree of devel</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">yeah, devel builds wouldn't be published in a tree, but available through koji's web interface</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">notting: I could agree with that.  A brief period where some bugs are fixed on multiple branches, but allows for future development too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">except that we want devel/ to have the F-7 stuff in teh general case</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and forcing double builds after test4 seems like it's going to go poorly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">ouch</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">how about at the final freeze?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">either we lock CVS and developers take a vacation, or we have to do some fixes in two trees for a period of time.  Just want to find the right balance</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">this process of devel becoming fc+1 is not always ideal. i guess it boils down to having unstable,stable,testing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">f13, i say vacation</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: yes, there is some period where it's the case.  but minimizing the amount of time is pretty important I think</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: that just means you always have to deal with three branches.  which isn't necessarily better</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm also worried about lots of time where builds in devel/ aren't actually going anywhere and the content of devel/ being _wrong_ when we branch for F-7/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">since from now until the end we're only taking packages by request.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy: but it insures my development bleeding edge isnt suddenly declared the next release freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">unless we want to change how the final test -> final release continuous freeze works</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy in my case. i have nsd-2.* in FC[456] </td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: yeah, not sure how to really resolve the differences :/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">and nsd-3 in devel</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">now suddenly, other people decided to make nsd-3 the new version by calling devel fc7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">i understand it is less work then having all maintainers create their stuff in a new tree</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">LetoTo: maybe you weren't following the feature freeze and such dates.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: say i was, and i found nsd-3 was not ready?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">would i have to revoke stuff from devel?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">probably.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">epoch and revert</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: or get an early F-7 branch has been done in the past</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy: is that process documented on the wiki? It does sound like the better solution</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so, opinions on branching at the final freeze date?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: that's probably the best compromise time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: and we should include thinking about this as we get back to some of the new scm thinking</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">nod</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">LetoTo: probably not...  but a branch request in bugzilla like you'd do for any other release should work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">bein gable to have both F7 and devel at the same time, but in sync if there is no changes would be nice.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> LetoTo</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: yes, that would be best</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so if you haven't actually changed devel, things you do in F-7 automatically echo to devel/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">but thats hand waivy future land</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">another concrete thing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mikmod</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it got bumped to a beta version with a new soname right before the freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">votes on reverting back to the older version?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">+revert</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">revert</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">+1 to revert.  Probably epoch+revert for upgrade path :/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">(as much as that still bothers me)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><td class="action" colspan="2">* nirik notes that a few people already rebuilt against it, so we need to rebuild those again, or dump the updates there too. </td><td><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">icky tata</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">this is one of those things that would be OK if we were doing a mass-rebuild?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">or, at least, we wouldn't have noticed after the rebuild</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">wwoods: would have been ok before the feature freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mikmod is core?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">but soname bumping sounds like featury</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I.. hm</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657">warren: yes, jnovy is the last one in the changelog</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but it was pre-freeze?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">wwoods, test3 was feature freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: it was before we locked down things.  but post feature freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">oh, pre test4 freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">boo</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><td class="action" colspan="2">* wwoods votes revert</td><td><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">how many things need reverting?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">unless there's a really good reason</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mikmod isn't that widespread</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">(which was never presented to us)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: the version that's in rawhide right now is a beta</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657"><a href="http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-April/msg01047.html">http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-April/msg01047.html</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">reverting might be ugly due to epoch.  mikmod really isn't dangerous.  Does the new version work?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">so they crammed in a beta with a new soname, post-feature freeze? uuuugly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">sounds like a LARTable (DART?) offense</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">epoch is just a damn number</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">warren: as much as I hate epochs, I hate having to rebuild a bunch of stuff after a freeze for a soname bump much more</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">heh! we basically only use 'epoch' to fix stuff like this</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">for a beta</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">f13, +!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">er, 1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">so maybe we need to keep track of 'total Epoch increase by developer'</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">wwoods, public shaming scoreboard?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">indeed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* wwoods mostly kidding</td><td><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">every epoch gets you -1 points in karma</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ok, anything else before we move on to regular meeting times?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Regular meeting schedule</td><td><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">anyway yes, +1 for revert + epoch bump</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I think most were OK with this time slot, on Mondays</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">monday works best for me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">extra meetings tossed in when releases are happening for more the state of the tree type things.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">although it is a 3 year old beta</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">(sorry, network dropped)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">heh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jeremy: a 3 year old beta, and we're just getting it now?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t15:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">active upstream project,there</td><td class="time"><a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a></td></tr>
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