ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-nov-19

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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-11-19

Topics Discussed

  • Releasing Fedora 9 on CD--up to the Fedora Board to decide what they want
  • Enabling Jigdo
  • http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease
  • create and host templates outside of Fedora for now
  • if in time there is enough demand, possibly add to compose process

IRC Transcript

--- Log opened Mon Nov 19 12:58:47 2007
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 82 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normal] 12:58
-!- Irssi: Join to #fedora-meeting was synced in 1 secs12:58
* kanarip is here13:01
* poelcat here13:03
* jwb is here13:04
f13oh yeah.13:05
f13it's that time.13:05
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting13:05
f13jeremy notting warren wwoods spot ping13:05
* spot is around13:05
* jeremy is around13:05
* warren here13:06
* EvilBob is round...13:06
f13kanarip: what was the url to your wiki page regarding jigdo?13:07
* notting is here13:07
kanariphttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease13:07
f13thanks, adding it to the agenda page, I forgot to do that earlier.13:08
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease13:10
f13lets all take a moment to review this13:10
* warren tries to load page13:10
* warren still waiting13:11
jwbso that is mostly a benefit for the mirror servers?13:13
f13jwb: it can be a benefit to users too13:13
poelcatjwb and users too13:13
jwbhow?13:13
f13jwb: if they have content downloaded, jigdo can use that downlaoded content to construct the iso, instead of having to download the entire iso13:14
jwbi rolled that into mirroring13:14
poelcatmy own example is that I sync a local rawhide tree and usually when a new iso comes out I have 75% of the content already... why download it all again via bittorrent?13:14
spotmaybe i don't understand jigdo, but it sounds like it would make getting isos massively more complicated than it is now.13:14
kanaripjwb, the footprint on a mirror decreases by not having to host the .iso file13:14
nottingf13: right, but that implies they *do* have the content first13:15
jwbpoelcat, perhaps my definition of "user" is too limited.  you (and i since i do the same) would not be considered "users" in my terms13:15
jeremyspot: it does13:15
jwbkanarip, right that's the major benefit i see13:15
kanaripspot, however Jigdo isn't mutually exclusive with torrent, or with having the .iso files on the mirrors as well13:15
nottingone thing about the notes listed - we actually put repoview on the isos?13:15
spotfor example, if i wanted to download fedora to a windows box...13:15
poelcatjwb: agreed--today :) but why not provide the opportunity to expand it13:15
kanaripnotting, yes Fedora 8 had repoview/ on the ISOs13:16
notting... why?13:16
* jeremy is very against not having isos on mirrors. if the end result iso can be verified (sha1sum) vs the published sha1sum, I guess I'm okay with publishing jigdo files13:16
f13notting: I forgot to exclude it.13:16
nottingjeremy: technically, spins aren't on the mirrors13:16
spotjeremy: agreed. i'm not against jigdo + isos, but only jigdo? Nah.13:16
jwbjeremy, yeah.  i see it as an add-on, not a replacement13:16
kanaripnotting, however one can exclude those files from becoming 'slices' the client wants to obtain from the mirrors and have it included in the .template files13:16
f13kanarip: actually we need to just keep repoview off the iso period.13:17
f13I need to make that change in pungi13:17
f13jeremy: I'm with you.13:17
kanaripjeremy, yes sha1sums can be verified on the .iso composed with jigdo13:17
jeremynotting: given that all of the spins are live images, jigdo is irrelevant for them, so ... :)13:17
f13The big question I have then is, for normal users (IE ones without a pile of mirrored packages), what is the point?13:17
kanaripin fact the .jigdo also has an md5sum for the .template13:17
* poelcat would vote for removing the part of about not hosting isos on mirrors as the benefit of this feature13:18
f13other than yet another (confusing) method to download the release?13:18
jwbi like the CD set thing13:18
jeremyf13: I think that's perhaps just a matter of having get-fedora even clearer than it is now (it's a lot better than previous releases, but could still be better :)13:19
kanaripf13, for releases there may not be much of a point for users that do not have piles of files already, although jigdo can be made to thread and/or use http pipelining13:19
f13so... if there is not much of a point....13:19
kanaripcompared to torrent however that'll not be much of an advantage13:20
jwbf13, jigdo seems like a good compromise for providing templates for isos we don't want to carry13:20
jwbe.g. CD sets13:20
f13jwb: what isos, besides live, are we not going to carry?13:20
nottingas a way to do cd sets, or everything13:20
jwbright13:20
jwbCD sets, everything, etc13:20
f13jwb: I'm pretty sure the board is going to ask us to do CD sets for 913:20
f13so that just leaves Everything.13:20
kanaripjwb, and for people that do have piles of files already, having a .template for the DVD is another ~24 MB but saves a lot, lot of time for the client13:21
jwbkanarip, sure that too.  smaller benefit to most people, but still valid13:21
poelcati think it is worth doing, but would not advertise as part of get-fedora, at least not for F913:22
f13jwb: if we're not hosting the Everything cd sets, where would the jigdo template for them come from?13:22
poelcatfor the people that can take advantage of it, is the burden on rel-eng too high to justify doing?13:22
jwbf13, people could create them and provide the templates?13:23
f13poelcat: I'm still trying to understand what the burden is.13:23
f13jwb: where would we put them?  Changes to the release tree are costly and should be avoided if at all possible13:23
poelcatf13: fwict creating the template13:23
jwbf13, i'm not following13:24
f13poelcat: but if we're not creating teh /content/ that the template would be useful for...13:24
kanarippoelcat, maybe i can answer that... partly13:24
f13jwb: other people make content and provide templates, where do we /put/ those templates?13:24
jwbreleases/N/jigo?13:24
jwbi dunno13:24
jwbthat seems like a fairly small detail13:24
kanarippoelcat, creating the files for an Everything spin including CD, DVD and DVD Dual Layer media in one run takes about 6 hours13:25
jwbmaybe i'm oversimplifying things13:25
kanariphow about in the $arch/ directory next to iso/ and os/, jigdo/13:25
poelcatf13: i was thinking about doing them myself and putting them on fedorapeople page, but it would make more sense to have them in a central place13:25
kanaripthese templates are still arch specific really13:25
jwbkanarip, that's actually what i meant, yes13:25
f13kanarip: are you going to have the templates ready when we release it to mirrors?13:26
f13kanarip: often times mirrors will sync release one, and never again.  Getting content changed in the release tree is not trivial.13:26
kanaripf13, i can13:26
kanaripf13, i understand13:26
kanaripf13, for Fedora 9 (and t1-3) however including the jigdo file and templates would be relatively easy though, right?13:27
f13again, it has to be ready at release time13:28
kanaripas long as the releases/ tree doesn't change during a release, right?13:28
kanaripright, i understand13:28
f13will you have Everything templates ready at release time?13:28
f13or rather, ready the 7~ days before release when we hand content off to be synced?13:29
kanaripif i can get some pre-release access to the released tree somehow, yes13:29
EvilBobonce the ISOs are ready we can do the jigdo dance on them13:29
f13is there a reason the templates have to be on the mirrors or in the release tree?  Couldn't they be offered up elsewhere?13:30
f13since we're not going to advertise it on get-fedora...13:30
jwbthey could13:30
kanaripf13, is that the target? complete Everything/ Spins?13:30
kanaripf13, no reason to have the files in the release tree13:30
kanaripf13, spins.fp.org/jigdo is just as good13:30
kanaripanywhere actually13:31
f13kanarip: well, if the board comes back and says they want CD versions of the Fedora spin, that just leaves Everything to worry about.13:31
jwbwhy would the board do that?13:32
kanaripbecause there is a number of users that wants the CD's, as the numbers of downloads from Fedora Unity spins have shown13:32
f13jwb: because they feel there is still enough want/desire for that media, and if the project is going to produce tha tmedia and make it easily available, it should go through the same compose/QA processes that the other bits of the release goes though.13:33
Southern_Gentlemjwb because from our respins 20% of the downloads have been cd13:33
jwbso rel-eng was wrong13:33
jwbthis is good.  means we learned something13:33
f13jwb: releng + the board.13:34
f13jwb: not doing CD media wasn't our decision alone13:34
jwbsure13:34
jwbfedoraproject was wrong13:34
jwb:)13:34
kanarip+, now we have a way to potentially decrease the overhead these extra images take on mirror disc space13:35
Southern_Gentlemjwb no sense beating a dead horse13:35
jwbSouthern_Gentlem, wasn't13:35
kanaripf13, concerning the footprint on the mirrors btw... i was wondering why most of them still carry FC1-FC5, is that ever going to expire?13:35
f13kanarip: except that I don't feel comfortable /at/ /all/ not having the actual content on mirrors.13:35
f13kanarip: it'll likely expire when the master expires it.13:36
jwbf13, some of the big mirrors actually run with those older versions13:36
kanaripf13, i understand, as i said none of this is mutually exclusive with current distribution methods13:36
kanaripi wouldn't want that either13:36
kanaripso what are we planning to do? release F9t1 with jigdo, after it's released create the jigdo files and publish them somewhere?13:39
f13it seems to me that if we're hosting the jigdo files outside of the tree, they could be produced at any time right?13:39
f13by any body?13:39
kanaripat any time, right13:40
jwbyes, as long as the content they're created against doesn't change13:40
kanaripby anybody, right13:40
kanaripjwb, +113:40
jwbi liked the idea of having them hosted on spins.fp.org13:40
f13so then really, as far as releng is concerned, it's just business as usual no?  We produce trees/isos, put them in expected places, somebody can come along and make jigdo files for them and add it to spins.fp.o13:41
kanaripf13, yes13:41
jwbi think so.  have to do the board approval dance?13:41
jeremyshouldn't be any need13:42
poelcatin time though, if demand is high enough, mabye tag onto the end of the compose process by releng and then everything stays in sync and is automated?13:42
jwbjeremy, oh true13:42
jeremypoelcat: yeah.  this lets us see what the real demand with a lower-weight process first13:42
poelcatwow, that makes too much sense :)13:43
jeremyI know.  crazy, isn't it?13:43
f13Proposal:  Jigdo feature owner works on getting up spins.fp.o to be able to host jigdo files.  Files are created out of band initially and hosted there.13:44
f13+113:44
jwb+113:44
jeremy+113:45
spot+113:45
kanarip+113:45
notting+113:45
jwbpoelcat, ?13:46
poelcat+113:46
Southern_Gentlem+113:46
f13Southern_Gentlem: hey now...13:47
EvilBoblol13:47
f13that's the majority of us, looks like it passes.13:47
Southern_Gentlemfyi http://f3dora.org/paste/555 you can see the demand for FU f8 cd jigdo13:48
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Goals for F9 release13:48
f13Last week I had asked ya'll to think up some goals for the release cycle, so that we can file milestones in Trac to track progress and deadlines.13:48
poelcatDoes gcc4.3 fit in here?13:48
f13Did anybody come up with anything?  I know I failed to file my signing server stuff.13:48
jeremypoelcat: it's a release feature, not anything rel-eng specific13:49
jwbi have a few things that are sort of rel-eng related13:49
poelcatjeremy: mass rebuild?13:49
jwbbut it depends on the outcome of other discussions13:49
f13poelcat: I'm thinking more regarding infrastructure changes or policy changes during the release.  LIke introducing a signing server13:50
jwbf13, question for you... can the arch teams use trac as well?13:50
* poelcat withdraws his suggestion and holds for later13:50
f13jwb: our rel-eng trac instance, or their own instance on fedora hosted projects?13:51
jwbeither.  though rel-eng would obviously be simpler overall13:51
f13I don't see a reason to deny that.13:51
poelcatdoes "secondary arch" project already have a trac instance?13:52
f13poelcat: I don't think so13:52
jwbpoelcat, what secondary arch project?13:52
jwb:)13:52
poelcatlol13:52
poelcatjwb: i keep hearing things are happening in different places13:52
jwbf13, reason i ask is that i would think the 2ndary arch teams might want to "clone" some of the milestones you've already created13:52
f13jwb: yeah, I don't know of a good way to do that in Trac.13:53
jwbok, well new ones are fine too13:53
f13I'd have to get a list of names to add the trac admins for this instance, but should be OK13:54
jwbok13:55
jwbwe'll work that out later13:55
f13well... in the interest of actually getting something done today, is there anything else anybody would like to talk about?13:55
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Discussion13:55
jwbdo we need to run the jidgo thing by fesco?13:56
f13jwb: it's a proposed Feature13:57
f13jwb: therefor it'll go through FESCo13:57
jwboh, right13:57
jwbsorry13:57
poelcatf13: do we need a mass rebuild for gcc4.3 ?13:57
f13poelcat: I haven't looked closely at the feature page, but we'll deal with that when it comes time to review all features13:57
poelcatf13: I'm not sure if their is a feature page13:58
* poelcat can't spell13:58
f13poelcat: until there is, I'm not going to plan for a mass rebuild (:13:59
poelcatf13: :)  this should get interesting 13:59
poelcatwhen i asked Uli he said "it is just a complier" :)13:59
f13poelcat: point him at the part of the feature planning where "would involve coordinating with large sets of other packages"14:00
f13or that concept14:00
* poelcat completely agrees14:00
poelcati'll work on this a little more then14:00
jwbpoelcat, why did you ask Uli?14:01
poelcatjwb: i'm having internal meetings with each of the groups to see what they are thiking about or planning for F914:02
jwbisn't jakub the gcc maintainer?14:02
poelcatjwb: correct14:02
jwbdid you ask jakub?14:02
poelcatjwb: i'm going to talk to him14:03
jwbpoelcat, ok.  there are certain things that could benefit from a rebuild with 4.314:03
jwbbut i'll refrain from commenting on that since it wouldn't make sense overall14:03
f13if there's nothing else...14:05
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule14:06

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