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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2008-03-10

Beta Release


  • rel-eng has agreed to maintain the file and it will be distributed on the mirrors
  • pub/linux/fedora/releases/releases.list

Master Mirror Space

  • after the board's talk with legal, we're clear to remove anything we want from the mirror.
  • is the ticket for the disk space
  • Discussion about what releases need to be kept around and which ones can be deleted to free up space
  • Potentially getting up to 2TB of space from HP

IRC Transcript

-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - Roll Call13:02
* warren here13:02
* notting is here13:02
f13ping: notting warren jwb rdieter jeremy wwoods poelcat spot13:02
* wwoods here13:02
* poelcat here13:03
f13I'm trying to chanage the wiki page to list the now adjusted UTC time13:04
f13but I'm getting 500'd13:04
f13ok, well13:04
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Beta Freeze13:04
wwoodsso.. rel-eng meeting adjusts for DST (i.e. it's tied to US Eastern time)?13:05
f13Tonight is the beta freeze, for tomorrow's rawhide.13:05
f13wwoods: yeah13:05
f13dist-f9-beta exists, is continually updated with the latest dist-f9 stuff, and I've got signing writing out signed packages right now13:05
f13rawhide tomorrow will likely have a bunch newly signed packages, but likely not all of them13:05
f13I'll update dist-rawhide later tonight13:05
warrenabout what time will the cut-off be?13:06
jwbupdate it as in ?13:06
f13dist-rawhide -> dist-f9 right now, tonight it'lls witch to -> dist-f9-beta13:06
jwbyeah, ok13:06
f13dist-rawhide is what feeds rawhide composes.13:06
jwbyep, just making sure i understood13:06
f13warren: 0700 UTC~13:07
f13warren: likely a bit before13:07
* spot is here13:08
f13so lots and lots of test trees coming13:08
f13RHEL5 selinux is thwarting my attempts at using rhel5 + mock to compose trees, so we might not be able to do them in PHX for beta13:09
f13but I'll be keeping a test location in sync with the trees I compose13:09
f13wwoods: you have us a testing grid right?13:10
f13we should make an announcement regarding it and invite people to use rawhide to test things13:10
wwoods is the test plan13:12
wwoods is the "fill in the boxes" summary of results13:12
jeremysorry I'm late... free lunch ran long :)13:13
f13life is going to be busy for a bit.  Anything else anybody would like to add?13:16
f13We should keep in pretty constant contact with the state of the beta13:16
jeremywwoods: any indicator of how we're looking, especially relative to last week?13:16
jwbppc was mostly happy last friday13:16
f13daily runthroughs of the blocker list, culling the non blockers, etc..13:16
f13jeremy: X is better, still some evdev oddities, but not bad13:16
f13trees are composing pretty regularly13:16
f13including ppc13:16
f13perl landed today13:16
jeremyf13: yeah, that's my impression too.  but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything13:16
* jeremy saw perl too13:16
warrenI would really appreciate if somebody could review my ltsp package, been working constantly for more than 2 weeks getting that ready.13:17
jwbwhat does that have to do with Beta?13:17
jeremyalso, if we find a place to put it (I'll talk to mmcgrath in a bit), I can put up a live image13:17
f13I think the NetworkManager bits to reliably read system config files landed so we can flip NM on by default13:17
warrenjwb, I was told it needs to go in before beta or it doens't go in at all.13:17
jwbwhy is that?13:17
warrenfeature freeze?13:17
f13if it's a freature13:17
jwbit can go in.  it just won't be called a feature13:17
jeremyf13: we should check with dcbw where that stands (NM)13:18
wwoodsjeremy: stage2 stuff is still problematic. haven't tried an iso install today yet13:18
f13jeremy: yeah, I got a text message on Friday/Sat saying that the bits landed upstream and that he was going to do a rawhide build13:18
f13yes, stage2 worries me a lot13:19
wwoodsstage2=XXX definitelly doesn't work yet13:19
jeremywwoods: clumens should be around I think and is your best bet for fixage13:19
wwoodshe's in targeted selection training13:19
jeremywwoods: "stay on target!" :)13:20
* nirik wonders if the kvm vmware video finds no modes is known/filed/being looked at? 13:20
jeremynirik: it's filed (and affects vmware vmware too afaik)13:20
wwoodsgah. the internal mirror disappeared from the mirrorlist for rawhide for some reason13:20
nirikok, sounds good. I should see if the 'root can't login on console' thing I just saw is filed too.13:20
jwbwelcome to life for the rest of us wwoods13:20
f13oh, also13:21
f13syslinux doesn't seem to like recent kvm13:21
jeremywwoods: I can try to take a look too if you have concrete reproducers of problems13:21
wwoodsforget that! I don't wanna deal with slow mirrors like you suckas13:21
wwoodsjeremy: sure13:21
wwoodsoh. right-alt is still enter (or space) in anaconda. grumble grumble13:21
wwoodsupgrade traceback... while looking for /etc/rpm/platform13:22
wwoodsbluh. I'll take this stuff offline and report bugs and junk13:22
f13we got works ahead of us13:22
jeremybut otherwise, would it really be a freeze? :)13:23
f13bad day for selection training.13:23
wwoodsbasically: shit's rough but I'm hopeful13:23
* jeremy at least feels like we're freezing on top of something more solid13:23
nottingmmm, frozen quicksand13:23
jeremyf13: and an entire bad week for me.  woo!13:23
f13well, anything else on Beta?13:24
nottingjeremy: punting redoing keymaps to match X?13:24
jeremynotting: yeah, I thought we decided that a few weeks ago13:24
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Floor13:26
f13Given the beta, I'm not focusing on anything else this week.  Is there anything else anybody wants to bring up?13:26
* warren falls through the open floor.13:26
* f13 watches warren fall through the hole in the roof13:27
wwoodsthis might be an infrastructure thing instead, but13:27
wwoodsthe preupgrade feature requires a place to put a releases.list file13:27
wwoodswhich.. surprise! lists available releases13:27
nottinga place... on the mirrors? on the wiki? in space?13:27
wwoodsthat's the question, really13:28
wwoodsdoes something like that go on the mirrors, or do we just find some random place in the fp.o space to put it13:28
wwoodsit's kind of the Official (machine-parseable) List O' Available Releases13:28
f13we probably don't want it to be a SPOF13:29
wwoodsand it'll need some (small amount of) rel-eng involvement to flip bits when releases are made public13:29
f13pub/linux/fedora/releases/releases.list ?13:29
wwoodse.g.: add Fedora 9 when F9 is released13:29
f13so yeah, I think dropping it in pub/fedora/linux/releases/ makes sense13:31
wwoodsf13: works for me. but yeah - requires updating when releases are.. released. which is a releng-y task.13:31
f13I have one other peice of business I forgota bout13:33
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Master Mirror Space13:33
wwoodsf13: so - can I say that rel-eng has agreed to maintain the file and it'll be distributed on the mirrors? :D13:34
f13wwoods: sure13:34
wwoodsrad. thanks.13:34
f13 is the ticket for the disk space13:34
f13after the board's talk with legal, we're clear to remove anything we want from the mirror.13:34
f13Which could be everything up to the Fedora 7 bits13:34
nirikBeta is gonna have jigdo bits, correct?13:35
f13I'm still syncing stuff to spinning disks in Bostford but once that's done we can do some rm -rfing13:35
f13nirik: yes13:35
nottingf13: so, fc6 disappears completely? no archive?13:36
f13I'm going to announce likely later this week the pending removal of the bits, temporary for now, ideally put back in later with redirects from the old locations13:36
f13notting: we'll want to put the bits back online eventually, we just don't have the resources to do so immediately13:36
nottingdo the mirror heads in rdu/tpa have similar space issues?13:37
f13but we have to clear something off to handle 9's release with split media once again, and secondary arch content.13:37
f13notting: I do believe so, they're all supposedly matched sets13:37
nottingwell, do we have space for 9 release w/o seconday arches?13:38
nottingand is there a concrete plan for the future other than begging?13:38
jeremynotting: begging...  with feeling  ?13:39
jwbf13, which secondary arch content?13:39
f13jwb: ia64 is the immediate need13:40
f13they're ready to start having us pick up their rawhide droppings13:40
jwbwasn't aware of that13:40
jwbare they all hooked into koji?13:40
dgilmorejwb: partly13:40
dgilmorejwb: I need to finish making things work13:41
f13notting: Without scrubbing /some/ content we don't have room for 9 at all13:41
dgilmorejwb: they are queueing builds  but not trying to reproduce the buildroot13:41
f13notting: my future plan is that we only keep the active or active -1 releases on the netapps, and we archive things to an archive server with less costly space issues13:41
jwbdgilmore, and that's acceptable?13:41
nottingf13: sure, but we don't have one of those yet :)13:41
dgilmorejwb: for now13:41
jwbwait, why?13:41
f13notting: correct.  We have some of the stuff for it, but it's being used for backups right now13:41
f13jwb: because it's better than nothing13:42
nottingf13: yeah, just hosting non-critical things without a concrete plan for space  acquisition makes me nervous13:42
f13I still think that reproducing the buildroot exactly is impossible13:42
jwbi've offered to send hard drives before13:42
jwbjeremy says that's pointless13:42
f13notting: we have plans, and budgets, but they're in later quarters13:43
nottingf13: did we not think we'd run out of space this fast?13:43
nottingjwb: drives is sort of misleading. would need drives, and a box, in the colo, and some sort of redundancy...13:43
jwbyeah, hence pointless13:44
f13notting: I don't think mmcgrath was aware that we were going to do split media for 9 again, and wasn't expecting to host secondary arches13:44
nottingthen... say no?13:44
warrenwe could do split media jigdo only...13:44
f13notting: board already said yes.13:44
warrenor all media jigdo only...13:44
f13warren: I'd rather not13:44
nottingf13: then tell the board they have their head up their ass and cough up some hardware13:45
jwbf13, what the board says and what we can physically accomplish are entirely different things13:45
f13we /can/ accomplish it13:45
f13there is no reason to keep Fedora Core 2 crap on the master mirror share13:45
f13it's just silly13:45
jwb1-6 can go13:45
f13we can temporarily move it offline until the archives space frees up13:45
jwbwhy are we hosting it at all anymore again?13:46
jwbthe old stuff i mean13:46
nottingi'm just not sure i see the point of 'oh, we'll put it somewhere else later'13:46
f13cleaning 1-6 off (basically the core/ directory) gives us ample space.13:46
nottingafter all, you're going to blow up their fc6 installs for 6 months anyway13:46
nottingwhy would the users then care that you're putting it back13:46
warrenblow up?13:46
nottingyum doesn't like no baseurls existing13:46
f13maybe they'll get the point that their release isn't supported anymore13:47
warrendoes removing 1-5 give us enough space?13:47
nottingadmittedly, they haven't seen updates for however long, but now they'll get loud errors13:47
f13warren: depends on how fast other arches spin up13:47
nottingi just don't like the ridiculous measures to support (IMO) a silly decision13:48
warrennotting, +113:48
jwbarent' you on the board?13:48
nottingjwb: doesn't mean people listen to me13:48
f13notting: then please go talk to the board and spot, 'cause that's where the pressure is coming from13:48
jwbnotting, i'm just wondering if you said the same during the board meeting13:48
f13HP has already sent us a box to hold the bits on disks until we can get archives up and runing.13:48
warren<notting> and is there a concrete plan for the future other than begging? <-- This doesn't bode well.13:49
f13concrete plans involve budgetary planning, which we're doing.13:49
f13although a lot of the problem is finger pointing when it comes to "who is going ot pay for this"13:49
f13notting: but please don't use releng as a method to further disagree with the board.  I don't really like being put in that position.13:50
jwbwhy is that?13:50
* warren wonders if we should split the ISO and package mirrors into different trees.13:51
f13jwb: we elect a board for a reason, they've made a decision, and we're doing the best we can to accomplish their decision.13:51
f13warren: wtf are you talking about?13:51
warrenIt makes less and less sense to have multiple copies of the same thing.13:52
nottingf13: it's the responsibility of rel-eng to give feedback to the board if what they ask for is nuts13:52
f13it also makes less and less sense to carry really old content on the expensive master mirror.13:52
jwbi think we should ax the older releases regardless of the current discussion13:52
jwbat very least 1-413:52
f13notting: well, I don't necessarily agree that it's nuts.  I think the timing is a little off, but it's nothign we can't deal with.13:52
f13jwb: 1-4 doesn't give us enough space IIRC13:52
f131-5 gets us closer13:53
f131-5 + the Fedora 7 Test [1234] may just about cover it13:53
f13we may get away with keeping 6 on the master netapp13:53
jwbdoes that include extras 3-5?13:53
nottingf13: this deletion is planned for... post-beta?13:53
f13jwb: yes, that includes it.13:53
f13notting: planned for as soon as I get the bits mirrored to the HP box in bostford, and send an announcement to the mirrors / users13:54
f13could be before beta, but will probably be after.13:54
f13notting: but if you can convince the board to choose a different course of action before then...13:56
nottingf13: do you or don't you want to be cc'd?13:56
f13as it stands, getting new mirrors bootstrapped is pretty tough given how much old content there is.13:56
jwbnotting, please cc rel-eng13:56
f13notting: sure, keep me cc'd, I'd like to be informed.13:56
f13jwb: ++13:56
nottingi'd just feel *much* better if archives was actually live now.13:57
nottingwas there something that prevented the HP donation going somewhere it could be used in a public manner?13:57
f13notting: rack space in PHX13:57
f13== 013:57
nottingand we can't send it to serverbeach?13:57
f13no ability to put things outside the firewall in Bostford13:57
f13serverbeach provides us machines, not the other way around13:58
warrennotting, serverbeach does only dedicated, not colo.13:58
f13we'd have to buy another machien from them, or more storage13:58
nottingso, barring adding a cname for to
f13and getting IS to agree to putting another box in the colo13:58
warrenhow much space does elvis have?13:58
nottingabout 22G ;)13:58
f13does elvis have the 400~ gigs we need?13:58
warrennotting, where is elvis anyway?13:58
nottingsomewhere in the rdu 4th floor lab, iirc13:59
warrenf13, what do you mean by redirect?  http redirect?13:59
f13warren: yes13:59
f13warren: if we can.13:59
warrenf13, and do we allow rsync access to archive.fp for people who want to mirror it for no good reason?13:59
f13warren: saves us from re-filing export approval for all the old releases.13:59
nottingwell, actually elvis is a nursing home in texas with jfk battling mummies. but that's besides the point13:59
f13warren: it should.13:59
f13well, nothing will be deleted before our next meeting14:01
nottingf13: how much space will the in-6-months archives.fp.o be?14:01
f13notting: that's a mmcgrath question14:02
nottingand i suppose there's not really space on spins either14:02
spotnotting: HP is working on donating much more storage to us14:04
f13probably not that much space, but again, that's a mmcgrath question.14:04
spoti'm working with mmcgrath to find a home for it.14:04
jwbspins has about 84gig free14:04
spotabout 2 TB14:05
jwbthough i think mmcgrath recently had an upgrade for spins somewhere14:05
nottingf13: dumb question - we want to have a written offer of some sort for F9 to handle some of these GPL issues. is there a way to beta test that without tying us into keeping the beta for however many years?14:05
f13... beta test a written offer?14:05
jwbthat seems... bad.  and also a question for fedora-legal14:06
f13what do you want to test?14:06
nottingf13: i.e., does including the first wording of this offer in the beta tie us to keeping the beta online for 3 years14:06
* jwb <- not lawyer14:06
f13notting: word it in such a way that it doesn't.14:06
f13I don't think you can just put "NOT!" at the bottom.14:06
nottingmdomsch: are you in charge of that?14:06
f13you can put a chucnk of text saying "This is where the written offer will be"14:07
f13but I'm curious what you're trying to ... test14:07
nottingthe last i heard is that there was going to be something in the toplevel readme about the source offer14:07
nottingand i don't want it to cause problems later14:07
f13yeah, I'm not capable of answering that14:08
mdomschI'm still working on it..14:09
mdomschwon't be ready this week though14:09
nottingf13: but whatever we do, you *do* want to make sure it doesn't apply to betas?14:09
mdomschI need to get FSF legal (brett smith?) to ack that for GPLv2 we don't _have_ to provide physical media with source, if it's online14:09
jwband alphas and rcs14:09
mdomschGPLv3 fixed that particular madness14:09
mdomschnotting, right - we really only want that to apply to releases14:10
mdomschwhere we can expect to press media14:10
mdomschat least for now14:10
jwbmdomsch, why the v2/v3 distinction?14:10
nottingmdomsch: and is this using gpl as the original source license, or gpl as the collective license.14:10
mdomschthere's a desire to allow GPLv2 3b) for everything - but we're far from there yet14:10
mdomschnotting, both...14:10
mdomschjwb, v2 (in the FSF's opinion of the past) meant we had to put source on physical media for people if they wanted it, because we put the binaries on physical media14:11
f13notting: that is correct.  Making pre-releases stick around for 3 years will very very very quickly run us out of disk space14:11
mdomschv3 says basically "putting them online is sufficient"14:11
jwbis there something preventing us from using gplv3 which has this issue fixed ?14:11
mdomschjwb, all the v2-licensed code in the distro? :-)14:11
jwboh, yes14:12
nottingf13: sorry to drag things off-topic. anything else?14:12
f13I got nothing, but a hungry belly14:13
f13anybody else?14:13
jwblet's talk about spins14:13
jwbjust kidding :)14:13
f13thanks all14:15

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