Websites/Meetings/2009-06-19

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-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Who's here? 17:00
ricky hiemanshu, markg85, mizmo, ianweller, mchua, onekopaka_away, nb, anybody I forgot: ping 17:00
nb oh 17:01
* nb is here 17:01
* nb forgot about the meeting 17:01
* markg85 is here 17:01
* hiemanshu will be here in 5 mins 17:01
-!- mchua_ [n=mchua@host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has joined #fedora-websites 17:02
ricky mchua_: Hey 17:02
-!- mchua [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-f7551ede865e4856] has quit Nick collision from services. 17:02
mchua_ hey, sorry I'm late; took a while to reconnect to wifi. 17:02
mchua_ can someone pastebin me a backlog? 17:02
* mchua_ pulls up task list 17:02
ricky mchua_: http://dpaste.com/57245/ 17:03
mchua_ thanks, ricky 17:03
-!- mchua_ is now known as mchua 17:03
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Release 17:03
ricky Everything went pretty smoothly with the release 17:03
ricky We tried a new way of working with git branches, which worked out really well  :-) 17:04
mizmo hi 17:04
mchua hey mizmo! 17:04
ricky The one hitch was that there were some docs links that weren't right on release day, so we had to do last-minute fixing :-/ 17:04
ricky Next time, I'll send out "please check this website" emails to websites, docs, and design lists. 17:04
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Task List 17:05
* ricky hands it over to mchua 17:05
mchua https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks#The_list 17:05
mchua so, people did check their email, and the list should be all up to date  :) 17:05
* mchua is new, and begs pardon for the many questions and the learning on the job 17:05
mchua but before we all start getting busy again, i was wondering if the team had any targets for f12 - what do we want to accomplish this round? 17:06
mchua reading through the list, a lot of things seemed scattered to me, I couldn't tell where it was all going, but I may be missing something 17:06
mchua ricky, mizmo, ianweller, quaid, jonmasters... folks who have been around here longer, any thoughts of where we're headed? 17:07
* hiemanshu pardons for being late 17:07
ricky My main goal is to get join.fp.o much more friendly. That'd be a big gain. 17:07
hiemanshu ricky, i would rename that as Noob proof 17:07
hiemanshu We have people asking us stuff in #fedora that can be found on the site 17:08
ricky Ah 17:08
hiemanshu for example people asked for links for x86_64 17:08
ricky Having join info at fp.o would be nice also because it would be translated. 17:08
ricky Ah, x86_64 downloads are another issue we'll have to think on for F12 :-/ 17:09
markg85 ricky, isn't the only thing missing on j.fp.o a clear description of what those category's mean? 17:09
mizmo this is really hard to do without understanding what exactly fedora is meant to be 17:09
* mchua agrees with n00bproof join.fp.o, but isn't sure exactly what that means 17:09
* giarc shows up late 17:09
ricky mizmo: Sorry, which part were you referring to? 17:09
mizmo ricky: are we a distro for developers or are we a 'consumer desktop' distro 17:10
ricky I think n00bproof is too strong a term, even. I can see how a page like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join could be confusing to anybody. 17:10
mizmo ricky: the difference between those two is a difference of a million miles in the approach to take for fpo 17:10
hiemanshu ricky, we should have explain as though you were teaching a 8 year old 17:11
ricky hiemanshu: Based on what you've seen in #fedora - what kind of person do you think wants x86_64 downloads? 17:11
hiemanshu ricky, people who just want to try those 17:11
hiemanshu The thing is the links are not on the get-fedora page, which should have been there 17:11
mchua hrm. 17:12
hiemanshu you need to click another button and people ignore that and waste more thing getting that question answered 17:12
hiemanshu it should be made obvious to people 17:12
mizmo hiemanshu: what kind of people are these? these are technical people no? 17:12
ricky Can we profile each specific type of user into more categories than just "developer vs. consumer" ? 17:12
mchua so, I'm not sure if this would be a useful metric at all, but https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Brainstorms#j.fp.o_experience was one thing I've been thinking of. 17:12
hiemanshu mizmo, non technical 17:12
mchua "one possible effectiveness metric for our website might be the number of contributions each release gets from new contributors (i.e. contributors whose first contributions were in that release) - in other words, "does join.fp.o work"?" 17:12
mizmo hiemanshu: you're telling me a non-technical person insisted on x86_64? 17:12
hiemanshu mizmo, yes 17:13
mizmo hiemanshu: if i mentioned the word 'x86_64' to my mom, she would be like, 'huh?' 17:13
mizmo hiemanshu: so on the scale of my mom <=> linus torvalds, what do you mean by "non-technical"? because i think we have very different definitions 17:13
hiemanshu mizmo, people how have some idea or heard from friends want 64 bit OS just because they have a 64 bit proc 17:13
mizmo hiemanshu: the very fact the person was talking to you in IRC right away tells me they are at least a little technical 17:13
mizmo hiemanshu: this was in IRC, right? 17:14
hiemanshu mizmo, non technical means who does not want to try to get this way around 17:14
hiemanshu yes 17:14
mizmo my mom doesn't know how to use IRC or even what it is 17:14
mizmo hiemanshu: can you reword that? im not sure what you were trying to say 17:14
hiemanshu there way* 17:14
ricky I'm slightly confused at how somebody knows enough to be aware that there is an x86_64 version, but doens't click the "show me all options" link. 17:14
ricky Maybe the wording is confusing? Should that link be "show me all options" instead of "show me all options on one page" ? 17:15
hiemanshu mizmo, according to me a Non Technical user is one who knows he has a computer and a OS, but does not know what to when he has problems and comes to IRC 17:15
mizmo well we could make the show me all options stuff more obvious 17:15
hiemanshu ricky, below download link add looking for x86_64, find it here 17:15
mizmo hiemanshu: okay that's a very big difference in my definition of a non-technical user, who is someone who has a computer perhaps but who doesn't know how to use IRC and just wants to try out linux 17:15
mchua so... wait, hang on a second. before we get into the definition of a nontechnical user looking for x86_64 stuff, maybe we should figure out what improvements we want from the website this release. 17:16
ricky hiemanshu: That would very possibly be confusing to somebody that doesn't know whether they need x86_64 or not though 17:16
mchua hiemanshu, it sounds like you want to make sure folks looking for 64-bit stuff can find it. 17:16
markg85 Just a crazy idea but what if the download page in done in a question like way? 17:16
hiemanshu Make every thing _obvious_ so we dont have people asking us stuff 17:16
markg85 for example: 17:16
giarc if x86_64 is too hard for some users to find, couldn't we just add a lozenge like we have for KDE etc? 17:16
mizmo mchua: i think the goal should be, for get.fpo, keep the newb-focused stuff the same, but make the 'more options' link way more obvious 17:16
markg85 Do you have more than 3GB of memory? (x64) 17:16
mizmo giarc: if we added a lozenge for everything people have asked for a lozenge for, the lozenge list would be longer than richard stallman's beard 17:17
markg85 then download that x64 17:17
mizmo markg85: i dont even know how much ram is in my laptop 17:17
mchua it's hard to figure out what words like "obvious" and "intuitive" and "user friendly" mean. 17:17
markg85 mizmo, ^_^ 17:17
ricky giarc: That's another possibility, but it'd quickly get complicated, because then we'll have to account for KDE x86_64 live media too 17:17
hiemanshu markg85, i586 with PAE supports 64GB ram 17:18
mizmo mchua: okay make the more options link more prominent and eye catching, is that better than 'obvious' ? o_O 17:18
hiemanshu RAM* 17:18
mizmo hehe 17:18
giarc mizmo, heh, sure...but we *can* continue to say no to all the other requests 17:18
ricky Then there will be two links that match somebody that wants the KCD x86_64 live media. 17:18
markg85 hiemanshu, ... true 17:18
mchua mizmo: way better.  :) 17:18
mizmo giarc: what makes x86_64 more important than all the others? 17:18
giarc ricky, had not thought of that 17:18
giarc mizmo, nothing, just that seems to be a constant complaint 17:18
mchua mizmo: making it prominent and eye catching so that people who want the non-default dl option will be able to find it, I reckon? 17:18
mizmo giarc: the others are constant as well  :) 17:19
mizmo mchua: yep 17:19
* markg85 would still like to point to this option: http://fedora.mageprojects.com/ 17:19
hiemanshu My aim to decrease people asking the same stuff on #fedora by making it Obvious 17:19
mchua markg85 also had a cool idea with the questions-based page, which I'm guessing has a similar motivation... letting people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place. 17:19
* giarc needs to run for 5 mins ( boss bellowing for me ) 17:19
mizmo markg85: huh? you're saying we shold go from having 2 links where people complain about not having others, to having one link? and how does that help exactly? 17:19
hiemanshu and add a documentation link before download actually starts 17:19
mchua hiemanshu so, reducing repetitive questions on #fedora. which you see the x86_64 thing crop up on a lot? 17:20
mizmo i think it's okay to have a questions => link for the non-default download page, but not for the front download page 17:20
ricky mchua: One general problem we've had with websites is that we don't have a clear decision making process. That's one other area I'd like to improve. 17:20
mchua ricky: I'm starting to understand what you mean by that.  :) 17:20
hiemanshu mchua, not only those, those are once in a while, but make them so obvious that an 8 year old can download it 17:20
mizmo hiemanshu: we have documentation links before the download starts. see the grey 'resources' boxes next to each link? 17:20
* mchua frantically trying to summarize things people want to work on 17:21
mizmo we provide the install guide, release notes, and a link to the full docs site 17:21
hiemanshu mizmo, i mean people to get-fedora page and start downloading and overlook those resources 17:21
ricky mchua: It's tough, because on one hand, we don't want any suggestion to instantly go live, and on the other hand, we don't want suggested changes to completely fall to the side. 17:21
mizmo hiemanshu: that is on the get-fedora page. 17:21
markg85 mizmo, all i'm saying is that it would be a nice idea to have the most common options appear at the download page. If that's like my idea on that link or just 2 seperate links... both will do fine i think 17:21
markg85 separate 17:21
hiemanshu mizmo, change them a little so that people will first click a link where it make it _obvious_ then another link to start download 17:22
mizmo hiemanshu: that doesn't make sense to me, though, because you said that people were complaining about having to click another link to get to x86_64. but to me, it sounds like you are suggesting forcing everyone to click another link to get links to documentation? 17:23
mizmo i guess i'm simply just not following 17:23
hiemanshu mizmo, you have got me wrong 17:23
markg85 another think i would like a lot is just by looking at the user-agent of the user visiting the download page then select a default download architecture based on that 17:23
mizmo it sounds like you are suggesting: get-fedora => documentation links => download link 17:23
mchua okay, uh... hang on. I want to see if I'm hearing everyone correctly here. 17:23
mchua mizmo wants to help people who want the non-default dl option find the non-default dl-option by making it more prominent and eye-catching. 17:23
markg85 the user agent tells the architecture so why not use that valuable info 17:23
mchua markg85 wants to help people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place. 17:23
mchua hiemanshu wants to reduce repetitive questions on #fedora (example: x86_64) by making resources that 8-year-olds could use. 17:23
hiemanshu get-fedora =>Docs link =>15 sec delay to download 17:23
mizmo markg85: how do you know the user is downloading the image for the same computer they have the browser open on? 17:24
mchua ricky wants to have a clear decision making process on the websites team that balances ease-of-experimentation with moderation to make sure changes are good ones. 17:24
mizmo markg85: in many situations someone is trying to download a linux image for a machine that is broken. 17:24
mchua and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on.  :) and raise the number of new contributors in this release through improving the website. 17:24
ricky I'm kind of against going by the user agent. That can cause major confusion if I go to the library to download Fedora, for example 17:24
markg85 mizmo, well the same can be asked for the situation as it currently stands. you just don't know 17:24
mizmo markg85: right which is why it's better to have the user select than auto select it for them and get it wrong. 17:25
* mchua wonders if we agree on the purpose and audience of the design details we're debating about... 17:25
hiemanshu mizmo, where there is a download now button add another button download x86_64 17:25
mizmo markg85: if the page changes based on the machine you're on, then it becomes more difficult for folks like hiemanshu to help people because they may not even be looking at the same page anymore 17:25
mizmo mchua: i think we really need to start there 17:25
hiemanshu and below that why x86_64 17:25
markg85 mizmo, true 17:26
mizmo i do not want to add more buttons to the main get fedora page. 17:26
mizmo there are enough as it is. 17:26
mizmo we worked really hard to simplify it down to where it's at now. 17:26
mizmo i think the problem with get fedora 17:26
mizmo is that it's difficult for more technical users to use. 17:26
ricky If the x86_64 link on get-fedora is as prominent as the 32 bit one, you will almost definitely get new questions in #fedora asking whether people need 32 bit or 64 bit. 17:26
ricky I've seen that myself back when get-fedora was http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all 17:26
mizmo so i think our goal for f12 should be to address the 'view more options' so that it's easier to find for those users. 17:26
hiemanshu ricky, that why i said a link below to a page why x64 17:26
markg85 mizmo, my issue with getting f11 x64 was that it's currently guesswork to even find it 17:27
mchua uh... folks, before we start talking about specific implementation ideas, can we take a step back and breathe a little and figure out where everyone is coming from? 17:27
mizmo markg85: exactly. so we shold make the full page of 'other options' easier for you to find 17:27
ricky hiemanshu: Nobody ever clicks those links. If anybody bothered to click the install guide linnk first, all their questions would be answered. 17:27
mchua I'm feeling a bit like I'm watching ships pass each other in the night right now... 17:27
mizmo markg85: eg we could have a button that says, 'View more options (x86_64, ppc, KDE, and more)' 17:27
* giarc is back, ( june birthdays here at work... ) 17:27
mchua hey, giarc. discussion is a bit scattered at the moment. I'm trying to keep up with all the threads.  :) 17:28
hiemanshu ricky, yeah that could be one thing, people just dont want to read 17:28
ricky mizmo: Ooh, that's a good idea. 17:28
markg85 mizmo, that's yet another possible idea 17:28
mizmo ricky: yeh we could do them in fine print 17:28
ricky Yeah. 17:28
mizmo ricky: so people looking for the keyword 'x86_64' would skim and it would jump out at them 17:28
ricky As it is, I'm not crazy about grouping KDE and PPC together  :-( 17:29
mizmo ricky: then we avoid having a matrix of the combinatorial options on the front page, but at tthe same time the keywords the technical users are working for are there 17:29
giarc mizmo, sort of like a tag cloud? 17:29
ricky Yes, that's good. 17:29
hiemanshu Yes thats better 17:29
mizmo giarc: sort of. i wouldn't do the different font sizes the way a tag cloud is though. 17:29
mizmo giarc: they should be consistent 17:29
markg85 a reason why people don't look at the install guide (didn't look at it myself so just guessing here) is that there is so much text in it that it scares people away 17:29
ricky I agree with markg85 17:29
giarc mizmo, right, ok 17:29
mizmo people don't want to read text on get.fpo. they want to get f.  :) 17:29
hiemanshu markg85, +1 17:29
mizmo any solution that involves users reading more text = FAIL 17:29
hiemanshu people hate to READ 17:30
ricky Here's a sad fact: 17:30
markg85 i personally always move away from pages that have way to much text :P 17:30
ricky The table of contents of our install guide: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ is about as long as the entire openSUSE Live CD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_Live_CD 17:30
markg85 specially if they start with a bunch of notices at the top 17:30
mizmo yet people keep propposing we add more text ot the screen  :) 17:30
ricky And their install guide is filled with screenshots too. 17:30
ricky I want an install guide like that  :-) 17:30
mizmo ricky: that's insane 17:30
ricky (And here's their DVD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_DVD_Install) 17:30
hiemanshu ricky, i could try that 17:30
ricky To anybody interested on working on something like that: Please make sure to talk to the docs team first 17:31
ricky I wouldn't want to start any documentation projects without letting them know and hearing their thoughts on it first. 17:31
hiemanshu ricky, i ll do this part, i ll write the install Docs with Screens 17:31
giarc ricky, wow, that is striking 17:31
mizmo the docs team is planning a new system for displaying the docs 17:32
markg85 ricky, well.. you can make all the screenshots prior to making the documentation..(or not?) 17:32
hiemanshu markg85, you can 17:32
markg85 hiemanshu, if i install fedora i might just do that :D 17:32
ricky markg85: Making the screenshots shouldn't be an issue, the main thing would be communicating to the docs team about this 17:32
hiemanshu markg85, we can take this up together. what say? 17:32
markg85 hiemanshu, ask me again after my exams in just over one week 17:33
mizmo okay so, so far our goals for f12 are: 17:33
mizmo - make get.fpo better for technical users 17:33
ricky mizmo: Do you know if they're looking at changing the format of the docs, or just the infrastructure for the docs site? 17:33
mizmo - makes docs.fpo better 17:33
mizmo ricky: not sure  :( i would imagine both 17:33
ricky Hopefully  :-) 17:33
mizmo do we have any other goals for f12 17:34
mizmo i have one  :) 17:34
mizmo - improve www.fpo. it's a bit sparse right now. we could have a bit more information on what fedora is and why you'd want to use it. a section with profiles of real fedora users with picutres 17:34
markg85 mizmo, just wondering.. are there plans for a new decoration theme in fedora 12? 17:34
-!- mchua_ [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-ffcdfe22a665039d] has joined #fedora-websites 17:35
ricky - Get a decision-making process that we can stick to  :-) 17:35
hiemanshu mizmo, a user gallery 17:35
mizmo markg85: what do you mean by decoration theme? 17:35
markg85 mizmo, a nodoka replacement? 17:35
mizmo hiemanshu: yeh exactly! a gallery of real fedora users, where you can learn how fedora changed their life kind of thing 17:35
* mchua_ wonders if she got disconnected, and sheepishly asks for another backlog. 17:35
mizmo markg85: not afaik 17:35
* mchua_ vows to get a proxy this weekend. 17:35
ricky mchua_: http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/2009-06-19.log 17:35
giarc ricky, +1 17:35
mchua_ Thanks again, ricky. 17:36
-!- mchua [n=mchua@host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has quit Nick collision from services. 17:36
-!- mchua_ is now known as mchua 17:36
mizmo okay so we have 4 goals so far 17:36
markg85 mizmo, oke. i really would like to see something else other then that blue stuff 17:36
mizmo 1) get.fpo 17:36
mizmo 2) www.fpo 17:36
mizmo 3) docs.fpo 17:36
mizmo 4) decision process 17:36
hiemanshu mizmo, something like where people can add their own images and say something 17:36
ricky mizmo: Also join.fp.o  :-) 17:36
hiemanshu mizmo, 5) User Gallery 17:36
mizmo markg85: okay but right now we're having a websites meeting. i suggest bringing that up on the design team list 17:36
ricky One thing I'd like everybody to keep in mind is that everything we do has to be translatable. 17:37
markg85 mizmo, ^_^ sorry, for me websites is designing as well 17:37
ricky I know it can feel limiting at times, but I really don't want to move back to relying on things that are 100% English-only. 17:37
hiemanshu ricky, is there a Geo IP redirector? 17:38
mizmo ricky: has anything we've proposed so far been problematic for translation? 17:38
mizmo ricky: or is just the timing so we can get translations out a concern? 17:38
ricky mizmo: I haven't sen anything yet other than RSS feeds. 17:39
mizmo k 17:39
mchua current list o' goal-ness: get.fpo, www.fpo, docs.fpo, decision process, user gallery, join.fpo, translation. 17:39
ricky News is a tough one. I'd love to have news on the site, but I wouldn't want english-only news front and center on the Chinese home page. 17:39
* markg85 note to self: install fedora 11 in dutch and see how much is really dutch 17:39
mizmo any other ideas? or should we move on to prioritization? 17:39
hiemanshu mizmo, Geo IP redirector 17:40
mchua +1 prioritization 17:40
ricky hiemanshu: That's probably an infrastructure team thing  :-) 17:40
hiemanshu thats with the websites right? must be wrong :P 17:40
ricky We try to keep the pages totally static so that it's a breeze on release day though. 17:40
mizmo i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints 17:41
ricky mizmo: +1 to moving on prioritization 17:41
hiemanshu ricky, auto redirect to the local language, is it there or needs to be implemented? 17:41
ricky 17:41:06 < mizmo> i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints 17:41
mizmo decision process too 17:41
ricky hiemanshu: That's implemented in that if you set your language priorities in your browser, you'll see the right one automatically. 17:41
mchua mizmo: maybe we should have everyone reorder the list the way they think it should be prioritised 17:41
mchua and see where we end up 17:41
hiemanshu mizmo, make the goals list and we know how to prioritize them 17:42
mchua hiemanshu: get.fpo 17:42
mchua www.fpo 17:42
mchua docs.fpo 17:42
mchua decision process 17:42
mchua user gallery 17:42
mchua join.fpo 17:42
ricky Here's my tohught: get.fpo, decision process, docs.fpo, join.fpo, www.fpo, user gallery (and translation is something that happens throughout) 17:43
mchua translation 17:43
ricky **thought 17:43
mchua (that was a list, not my ordering) 17:43
mizmo ricky: i'd bump www a bit higher just because of its prominence 17:43
mizmo maybe swap docs and www 17:43
mchua my ordering is join.fpo 17:43
mchua decision process 17:43
mchua get.fpo 17:43
mchua docs.fpo 17:43
mchua www.fpo 17:43
mchua user gallery 17:43
mchua translation 17:43
ricky mizmo: I'm trying to think in terms of "what does a user want to do that's currently hard for them to do" 17:43
hiemanshu get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, join.fpo, user gallery 17:44
mchua markg85, thoughts? 17:44
markg85 my order: get.fpo www.fpo join.fpo user gallery decision process 17:44
markg85 translation 17:44
mchua I think we have a clear front-runner with get.fpo. 17:44
ricky I see "get documentation/help" as a more important task than "find out what Fedora is" for now, although maybe I can be convinced otherwise  :-) 17:44
mchua does anyone other than me think something is more important than get.fpo in terms of work-on priority? 17:45
mchua I'm *totally* willing to be convinced of this. 17:45
* giarc needs to run, can some one post a log of the meeting so I can catch up? 17:45
ricky giarc: Will do, thanks for coming! 17:45
markg85 and why. get and www are identical to me. join.fpo is slightly more annoying 17:45
giarc thanks ricky 17:45
ricky mizmo: www is talking about the main page more, while get is specifically about the get-fedora page 17:45
ricky join.fp.o and docs.fp.o are both thing that span over into a bunch of other groups in the Fedora Project. 17:46
hiemanshu ricky, my order is in what users actually do 17:46
mizmo ricky: if the front page of fpo isn't appealing, you wont have people needing to get help with it 17:46
mizmo  :) 17:47
hiemanshu mizmo, i dont think most of the people would even join, you might get people to docs and not join 17:47
ricky I guess, but I don't really see our front page as the way that most people find out what Fedora is right now (although that could be seen as a problem that we need to fix) 17:47
-!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who@fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-websites 17:47
* mchua notes that ultimately, people will vote with their feet, so the stuff that happens is the stuff individuals are going to want to work on themselves 17:47
* mchua looks back at votes 17:47
ricky Rather, I think most people get directed to fp.o through things like news sites, or other things which is where they first find out exactly what Fedoar is. 17:47
ricky **Fedora 17:48
markg85 people please know the first impressions rule 17:48
markg85 they are what makes a person join or leave 17:48
mizmo ricky: it is the 'official' definition of what fedora is though (or at least it should be) because we can't control what news media outlets explain us as (and sometimes they get it quite wrong) 17:49
markg85 right now (just being fair) my first impressions with both the fedora site and distribution are far from good and i'm in this world for a few years 17:49
ricky True. I don't think I'm fully clear on exactly what we're trying to do with the front page 17:49
mchua I agree with markg85; first impressions are important. 17:49
markg85 fedora runs good one just ONE pc here (and there are roughly 6) 17:49
hiemanshu To tell the truth fp.o just isnt attractive 17:49
mchua So, I tallied up all our priority lists. 17:49
mchua get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and join.fpo seem more or less on par... not many people incredibly excited about translation or user gallery, but that could be a small-team-takes-it-on thing. 17:49
markg85 so making that very abstract it means that fedora runs as intended on 1 out of every 7 pc's!! that's not good at all 17:50
mchua all these are separate pieces - separate pieces that interact, but separate pieces. 17:50
mizmo ricky: well right now the front page is kind of bare. visiting it, you don't really get an idea of why you would want to use fedora or what it can do for you 17:50
ricky markg85: That is probably a development issue and maybe not websites though. 17:50
mizmo ricky: i'd like it to be more like the fedora community tour page 17:50
ricky I'd love to have something like that. 17:50
mizmo https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/pages/tour/ 17:51
mchua question: does anybody want to run point on the fp.o page? 17:51
markg85 ricky, i know but that issue ends up by a person going to the fedora website 17:51
mizmo we break it down and explain what YOU can do with it 17:51
markg85 and that's where they find... not what they are looking for: answers 17:51
ricky All right, so I'll agree with www being before docs then  :-) 17:51
* Cheshirc wanders in 17:52
ricky So what's next now that we have some priorities? Should we start discussing each in detail and getting some research into what we need? 17:52
mchua my impression of current order: get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo in that order. nobody really picking up on translation or user gallery. 17:52
mizmo sounds right mchua 17:52
mchua well, i think we need to figure out who's going to run point on each thing. 17:52
markg85 and please all of you look with a objective view at fp.o and tell me what you see 17:52
mizmo mchua: well except i think translation is a thread that runs across all of them 17:52
ricky mchua: Translation isn't so much of a task on its own, just something to keep in mind throughout. 17:52
mchua because right now we have N cooks trying to make N pots of soup. 17:52
markg85 what i see: a superman packager !!! and a very short description of fedora 17:53
mchua ok, then someone should be on point for making sure translation is incorporated into all projects. 17:53
mchua else we'll drop translation and then look back at f12 and go *wap* why did we forget? 17:53
mizmo ricky: do you have those top 10 tasks for www.fpo handy somewhere? 17:53
mizmo i vaguely remember them being on your fedora people site? 17:53
ricky Let me find those 17:53
mchua the problem i've seen here in the brief time I've been around is that people keep colliding into each others work 17:53
hiemanshu mizmo, one immediate thing is to update MediaWiki 17:54
mchua http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/fedora-web 17:54
mchua mizmo: ^ 17:54
ricky Ah, cool. 17:54
ricky THanks 17:54
ricky hiemanshu: That's kind of a separate issue that will have to be discussed with Infrastructure 17:54
ricky But like I told you, it's not very likely unless there is a serious pressing need. 17:54
markg85 mizmo, could you tell me what you currently like on fp.o? 17:54
mchua markg85, hiemanshu, can we hang on a moment until we figure out who's working on what? 17:55
mizmo so our get.fpo goal we're prioritized highly today 17:55
hiemanshu ricky, following the Fedora rule, latest and greatest 17:55
* ricky certainly likes get-fedora. It's one of the pages that we've put the most work/polish into. 17:55
mizmo is #8 on the fedora-web list 17:55
* markg85 waits... 17:55
mchua thanks markg85  :) 17:55
mizmo we've got #1 on that list done 17:55
mizmo #2 is our docs.fpo item from today 17:55
* hiemanshu sits next to markg85 17:55
mizmo #3 is the www.fpo item, and #5 is also 17:55
mizmo #4 is join .fpo 17:55
mizmo #6 - what's happening in fedora - we haven't really identified today so we can drop it in priority 17:56
mchua even after looking at the old list, I'd go by the ordering we chose before. It seems more... pertinent to right now. 17:56
mizmo #9 fedora bling - we didnt bring that up - but i think it's good too. if we had something like spreadfirefox.com but for fedora 17:56
mizmo mchua: i think #8 in the old list needs to be #1 now though 17:56
hiemanshu mizmo, fedora shop? 17:56
ricky Yeah. 17:57
mchua mizmo: yeah, I meant the one we just did in this channel with get.fp.o as #1 17:57
mizmo mchua: oh i agree we should stick with the ordering we came up with today 17:57
mizmo mchua: sorry i misunderstood ya 17:57
ricky hiemanshu: Hehe, that's another thing that has been discussed with fedora marketing, but not much luck  :-( I'd love to see the efforts for that start up again 17:57
mchua the old list has tonnes of resources though which is great 17:57
hiemanshu ricky, i can help push up people 17:57
ricky hiemanshu: spevack is one person that I remember heading that up, he can probably get you in touch with whoever has the latest on that. 17:58
mizmo i would like to take point on get.fpo 17:58
mchua so our ordering from the discussion just now is get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery. 17:58
hiemanshu mchua, user gallery one step up please 17:58
ricky Decision process is still a tough one that will be a part of everything else  :-( 17:59
mchua hiemanshu: get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, user gallery, and translation. though things won't be done unless someone steps up like mizmo just did for get.fp.o. 17:59
mchua +1 to mizmo taking point on get.fp.o, btw.  :) 18:00
ricky Mind if we discuss some of the properties of a good decision making process for a moment? 18:00
mchua can we have other people step up to take point on some other stuff first? 18:00
hiemanshu mchua, i am a PHP guy and go the user gallery 18:00
mchua hiemanshu: you want to take point on the user gallery? 18:00
hiemanshu do the* 18:00
ricky I'll gladly take docs.fp.o and decision process 18:00
mizmo good decision making process != saying yes to every suggestion, because that's like making dinner by dumping out the contents of your fridge into a pot. 18:00
hiemanshu mchua, yes 18:00
markg85 mchua, i'm joist going for www.fp.o and get.fp.o 18:01
markg85 just* 18:01
hiemanshu i ll help markg85 with www.fp.o 18:01
mchua sweet. okay, we have mizmo on get.fp.o, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o and working with mizmo on get.fp.o, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, which is perfect because I wanted to work on join.fp.o. 18:01
mizmo id like to take the make www.fpo have a section like the fedora community tour section task but its a subtask of www.fpo 18:01
markg85 hiemanshu, add your name to it on the wiki plz 18:01
mchua nobody is doing translation yet. 18:01
ricky Some properties I desire of a decision making process: 18:01
hiemanshu markg85, where? 18:01
ricky 1) Not a dictatorship  :-) 18:02
markg85 hiemanshu, brainstorms? 18:02
ricky 2) Bad ideas (for some definition of bad) get rejected 18:02
ricky 3) Good ideas (for some definition of good) don't get sidelined 18:02
* markg85 would like the time now 18:02
* mchua checks list: mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone." 18:02
mizmo backseat driving is undesirable i think 18:02
mchua markg85: it's 2:04pm, or 18:04 UTC if I did math correctly. 18:03
ricky The definitions of good and bad will be deeply tied into what the goal and the target audience of the website is. 18:03
mchua 2:04 for me in Boston, EST. 18:03
* markg85 is not pointing to the real time :P 18:03
* mchua is confused 18:03
hiemanshu 23:34 here 18:03
* markg85 means the time to propose something here 18:03
mizmo ricky: which we still haven't really solidifed on  :( 18:03
ricky markg85: Propose away. 18:03
markg85 oke 18:04
ricky mizmo: Yeah. It's important that we do so that we have a basis for saying yes and no to things instead of bickering endlessly :-/ 18:04
markg85 mizmo, ricky mchua hiemanshu : i would like you all to go to fp.o and get.fp.o and write down what you really like. because the rest is what has to change or go 18:04
* hiemanshu will be back in 10 mins 18:05
markg85 personally i like nothing on www.fp.o and just a few things in get.fp.o 18:05
ricky That's kind of subjective. 18:05
ricky I'd rather have the purpose/audience in mind for the website before doing something like ths. 18:05
mchua markg85: +1 - I'll do it, can you shoot out an email to the list reminding people? some folks couldn't make this meeting but would probably chime in. 18:05
markg85 ricky, it is but if we combine all our opinions ^_^ 18:05
mizmo i dont think thats useful if we dont know who our audience is 18:05
mchua ricky: anything we do would be subjective; I don't think it's going to get us everything, but I think it's a good starting point. 18:05
mizmo we should rather, for each target audience user type, summarize what that type of user would like vs wouldn't like about the site 18:06
ricky I'd rather phrase the like/dislike thing as: X user in our target audience will have a hard time doing Y task in our website's purpose. 18:06
mizmo if www.fpo was targeted for me, it would be mostly blank 18:06
ricky Instead of "X is ugly, I don't like it" 18:06
mchua we're also users. we're not the only users, and we're a special weird involved type of user, but we're users, and this will also help us get our assumptions on the table. 18:06
hiemanshu mizmo, as i said, make it so anyone who reads likes it 18:06
mizmo the user classifications we could target 18:06
ricky I think that is totally impossible  :-) 18:06
mchua besides, if markg85 is running with this, then that's his prerogative.  :) 18:07
mizmo (1) i've never used linux before. i don't know what IRC is. i heard i should try it because it would make bill gates cry. 18:07
markg85 i just think this would be a very nice point to start with 18:07
mizmo (2) i've used linux before, but not fedora. you'll have to win me over. 18:07
markg85 mchua, yes i will run this 18:07
mizmo (3) i've been using fedora 4eva and it's awesome! 18:07
mizmo i think depending on which section we've got, we'd care about 1, 2, or 3 in a different priority order 18:07
mchua mizmo, ricky - well, markg85 isn't saying "everybody has to do this," he's saying "if you could do this please, it would help me think about some things I might not be considering just yet." 18:07
mizmo for www.fpo we would care more about 1 & 2 18:08
ricky Maybe what we need is a feedback form or email. 18:08
ricky Like: Let us know what you're doing with Fedora at blah@fp.o 18:08
markg85 mchua, i will add that task to.. myself on the tasklist 18:08
ricky Because I have absolutely no idea what types of users are 18:08
mchua if people want to do that, they can do that. markg85 was telling us what he's planning on doing with the project he offered to run point on. 18:08
hiemanshu We should have something on first page like, here for the first time, back again 18:09
mizmo im not going to do it because i dont think my opinion is very useful 18:09
mizmo  :( 18:09
hiemanshu i ll do it 18:09
mchua similarly, if mizmo asks for a hand on get.fp.o, she'll ask us to pitch in, and ricky was asking for input on decisionmaking a few minutes ago and people were chiming in... 18:09
markg85 I would say: first ask it on the websites list. if the feedback is to diverse there (thus not useful) then move it to a more populated list like jsut fedora 18:09
hiemanshu and help markg85 with that 18:09
mizmo the problem is that 18:10
mizmo if you dont think about the audience you are trying to reach 18:10
mizmo and you just randomly ask people 18:10
mizmo your results are going to be way skewed 18:10
mizmo and probably not in a way you would want them to be if you had actually thought about what audience you want to reach first 18:10
mizmo if you know the audience you want to reach, then you can survey THEM 18:10
ricky I don't think we're applying the soon-to-be extant decision making process here. 18:10
mizmo and weigh the results appropriately based on who answered the question 18:10
* ricky agrees with mizmo 18:10
mizmo and how high on your priority list that user class is 18:10
mizmo eg 18:10
hiemanshu mizmo, +1 18:11
mchua I agree, and I also think that this shouldn't stop markg85 from moving forward. 18:11
mizmo if linus torvalds tells me he thinks get.fpo sucks 18:11
mizmo but i want to target people who have never used linux before 18:11
markg85 mizmo, i agree and disagree 18:11
mizmo than linus' opinion is probably not something i should weigh as heavily as the girl walking down the sidewalk 18:11
mizmo who doesnt use linux 18:11
markg85 mizmo, you just have to start somewhere 18:11
mchua markg85 + 1 18:11
mizmo markg85: you have to know where you are going before you can start walking there 18:11
mizmo if you head off without a map you dont know if you're going to end up anywhere useful and how much time you are going to waste going the wrong way 18:12
ricky I just don't want to have flamewars based on subjective opinions start up. Please  :-) 18:12
mchua mizmo + 1 also. I think the "know what you're aiming for" thing is a very good thing. I also think that knowing that *while* starting means you'll eventually figure it out. 18:12
markg85 mizmo, the users don't mather for me because every single one will do fine. users from websites: fine. users from documentation: fine.. anyone is fine so there is no real target 18:12
mchua or rather, that if you know you don't know, and start moving with that in mind, you'll soon know. 18:12
mizmo huh 18:12
* mchua blinks, reboots mel.speaks_english module 18:13
mizmo markg85: if our target was beginning linux users, the resulting design would be a million miles away from a design primarily targeted for experience technical users 18:13
ricky I think we have some fundamentally conflicting opinions about what information to use and what information to discard thoguh. 18:13
ricky **though 18:13
-!- onekopaka_away is now known as onekopaka 18:13
onekopaka hello. 18:13
mizmo i mean heres the thing right 18:13
* mchua has to leave in 15 minutes. 18:13
mizmo what i do, is design UI 18:13
mizmo and there's a process to it 18:13
mchua hey onekopaka - you came in the middle of a somewhat frantic meeting.  :) 18:14
mizmo and one of the essential things you have to identify up front, is who is this UI for 18:14
markg85 mizmo, you are right but right now i see fp.o as (boldly said) useless. so in my point of view anything and any input will do fine 18:14
mizmo if i went and designed UIs willy-nilly asking my friends what they thought about it, i would be making a big mistake 18:14
onekopaka mchua: I ran from my school bus home. 18:14
onekopaka to home* 18:14
markg85 mizmo, once there is some input from one list (websites) you can choose to get further with other groups or bast "the new design" on just the input from the websites list 18:14
markg85 hey onekopaka 18:14
* onekopaka catches up 18:14
mizmo markg85: the reason www.fpo sucks RIGHT NOW is because that is the approach that has been taken in the past - it doesn't matter 18:15
ricky What if the input is wrong? What do we do then? 18:15
mchua onekopaka: we're talking about the projects we want to work on for f12 - in order, they're get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery. 18:15
hiemanshu Make some assumptions, and work out the best we can 18:15
mizmo markg85: but what i am telling you right now as a professional design practicioner is that is the wrong approach, a good design hinges on identifying and prioritizing your target users 18:15
markg85 mizmo, then where do you suggest i gather feedback? 18:15
mizmo markg85: it depends who you have identified as your target users! 18:15
mchua onekopaka: right now it's mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone." 18:15
mizmo markg85: if your target users are beginners, then you go to where you can talk to beginners and ask them 18:15
mizmo markg85: if your target users are experienced hackers, then you go and ask experienced hackers what they think 18:16
markg85 mizmo, that's the biggest problem of fedora.. there isn't one group! 18:16
onekopaka yep 18:16
mizmo markg85: if you dont think about *who* you are talking to, you're going to get way skewed results 18:16
mizmo markg85: that's right there are multiple groups, 18:16
mizmo (1) never used linux before 18:16
hiemanshu you make a general idea of stuff and continue 18:16
mizmo (2) have some tech experience, used another linux 18:16
mizmo (3) current fedora users 18:16
mizmo what we should decide 18:16
mizmo is in what order do we care about these users 18:16
mizmo for each project we are talking about taking on 18:16
mizmo then 18:16
markg85 oke stop :P 18:16
mizmo you can ask epople in each category, but weigh them appropriately 18:16
hiemanshu we care for 1 first and then 2 18:17
mizmo hiemanshu: i agree 18:17
* ricky agrees as well 18:17
mizmo hiemanshu: for www.fpo we care about 1, then 2 18:17
markg85 mizmo, then lets say i want to target beginning linux users. users that have installed fedora but not users that haven't used any linux ever yet 18:17
mizmo hiemanshu: for docs.fpo, we care a little less about 1, because if they don't use it they don't need help yet 18:17
* mchua looks at the time, and now has to leave in 10 minutes. Can we move towards wrapping up? 18:17
ricky Perhaps for join.fp.o, we care more about 2 and 3. 18:17
mizmo markg85: then talk to beginner users and ask them what they care about www.fpo 18:17
mchua can any of this discussion go to list, or to next week? 18:17
markg85 mizmo, so where do i start then and that's probably the biggest group :P 18:17
hiemanshu ricky, i would say 3 for join.fpo 18:17
ricky mchua: I think it might be good to get some of these disagreements worked out - we'll post logs to list later if you have to go 18:18
markg85 mizmo, i did on my school with 5 persons and all where ashamed that opensource software brings that crap out.. and they said that because it wasn't fully working on any of there pc's 18:18
mizmo markg85: thats neither here nor there, though 18:18
ricky OK, so now that we have some groups and some priorities, where do we go from here? 18:19
hiemanshu ricky, Feedback 18:19
hiemanshu from users 18:19
markg85 finally we are moving a bit 18:19
mizmo i dont know if i can meet next week because ill be in berlin 18:19
mizmo but what i will try to do 18:19
mizmo is have a summary of get.fpo tasks to usability test 18:20
mizmo and maybe some initial test results 18:20
ricky Cool. 18:20
ricky mizmo: For the rest of us, can you give some advice on how to go about getting these tests/feedback? 18:20
mizmo maybe a good systematic approach that you can adapt as you've got resources 18:21
mizmo is have a print out of the page(s) you're working on 18:21
mizmo and show it to three never-used-linux-before people (maybe parents, maybe friends, maybe co-workers) 18:21
mizmo then take some screenshots and make them available somewhere maybe on the wiki 18:22
mizmo and go into different tech IRC channels and try to grab 3 people who are familiar with linux 18:22
onekopaka Mozilla's feedback system, Hendrix, seems like a good tool for collecting feedback 18:22
mizmo and then go into #fedora-devel to get feedback from experience hackers 18:22
mizmo and for the page you're working on 18:22
mizmo come up with a list of questions to get feedback on 18:22
mizmo eg for get.fpo i'm going to ask 18:22
mizmo 'if you wanted to download x86_64, what would you click on?' 18:22
mizmo 'if you were going to install fedora on your machine today, which link would you click on?' 18:23
mizmo have at least 5 questoins to ask and note any other stuff the people you talk to note about the page 18:23
mizmo onekopaka: ive not heard of it 18:23
onekopaka mizmo: yep. http://hendrix.mozilla.org/ 18:23
hiemanshu make the default page for Mozilla a feedback page 18:23
onekopaka mizmo: and the source is in mozilla CVS in mozilla/webtools/hendrix 18:24
* mizmo takes a look 18:24
mizmo onekopaka: i think having osmething like that for the website would be good (altohugh we already get messages to webmaster@fpo) 18:24
mizmo but here we're talking more about very targeted feedback 18:24
mizmo in response to questions/tasks we come up with rather than open format 18:24
onekopaka yeah 18:24
onekopaka but feedback in general 18:24
ricky Yeah, webmaster@ email is usually not very feedback-related at the moment. 18:25
onekopaka it's more complaining about servers that aren't ours 18:26
ricky Heh 18:26
* onekopaka curses underneath his breath about those emails 18:26
ricky OK, so tasks for next week: 18:26
mizmo hehe 18:26
ricky Can all task owners strat a thread on the mailing list stating their task and actoins 18:27
ricky Then they can post updates on that thread? 18:27
mizmo sure 18:27
hiemanshu ricky, i am new here so might need some help :P 18:27
onekopaka hiemanshu: you're on the fedora-websites-list, right? 18:27
hiemanshu just joined in 18:28
ricky So one task is to gather feedback in the way that mizmo described 18:28
ricky For any person that you interview, make sure to get some background on what category of user they fall in. 18:28
onekopaka ricky: should I be updating the task list on the wiki at this point? 18:28
ricky onekopaka: That'd be great if you can 18:29
markg85 mizmo, sant me to go through with asking for feedback on fp.o on the websites mailing list or now? the question i will ask is: What do you really like about this site: fp.o, get.fp.o. If it where gone what would you miss? 18:29
onekopaka mmkay I've got it open in my browser for editing 18:29
markg85 sant = want 18:29
ricky mizmo: Does that sound like the right kind of question, or do you have any other suggestions for markg85? 18:29
mizmo markg85: that sounds like the right question but i dont think the websites list is the right place to ask 18:30
ricky Should the questions be more task-focused? 18:30
ricky Like: Show me what you would do if you wanted to download the x86_64 KDE live cd 18:30
mizmo ricky: yeh, for www.fpo though forming a task like that is a bit trickier 18:30
ricky True. 18:30
mizmo markg85: i can handle asking the questions for get.fpo if you can handle www.fpo 18:30
markg85 mizmo, want me to crosspost it to: fedora, fedora-devel, fedora-websites and fedora-design ? 18:30
mizmo markg85: i think the question you've come up with will work for www.fpo 18:31
mizmo markg85: i wouldn't spam mailing lists, i would ask in the venues i suggested above (friends, #fedora, #fedora-devel) 18:31
ricky markg85: People in real life could be good as well - especially for the people that don't know what Fedora or Linux is 18:31
hiemanshu I change that and put it up for User Gallery 18:31
onekopaka ricky: I think we should really have a Websites/Tasks/Feedback page for Feedback-related tasks to keep the task list cleaner 18:33
onekopaka ricky: what do you think about that? 18:33
ricky Yeah, that sounds better than spamming the mailing list 18:34
hiemanshu onekopaka, +1 18:34
nb ricky, /me would go to torrents to download everything  :) 18:34
nb but i dont know how many people know about torrents.fedoraproject.org 18:34
ricky OK, so does everybody know what to work on? If so, we can close for the week  :-) 18:34
onekopaka recently, I've been cleaning the wiki up 18:34
* hiemanshu is ready to fire up 18:35
markg85 mizmo, for the question. don't make it questions because that again will scare users away. That one question i made up will probably do fine for fp.o and get.fp.o 18:35
ricky Oh, one more thing - how is this meeting time for everybody? 18:35
* mchua --> train - logs plz! 18:35
hiemanshu Midnight here, fine with me 18:35
mchua this time is fine 18:35
ricky Only a couple of people filled out mchua's whenisgood thing, so this time was pretty much based on 4 peoples' times. 18:35
nb is pretty good for me, i don't normally work till about 30m inst from now 18:35
nb altough sometimes i would have to work 18:35
onekopaka ricky: good for the summer, but once school starts again it'll be a pain 18:35
markg85 ricky, this time is fine for me 18:35
ricky onekopaka: Heh, I'm in the same situation, actually 18:35
nb don't really include me in your planning, my schedule changes every week 18:36
ricky OK, for those reading on the mailing list: if you didn't fill in your time, please do so 18:36
ricky I think mchua's whenisgood thing is closed now, so we'll figure out some way to get times. 18:36
ricky nb: Heh, no worries 18:36
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Meeting End 18:36

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