Websites/Meetings/2009-07-31

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ricky #startmeeting Fedora Websites 17:00
onekopaka k 17:00
zodbot Meeting started Fri Jul 31 17:00:05 2009 UTC. The chair is ricky. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites) 17:00
ricky #topic Who's here? 17:00
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Who's here? (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites) 17:00
* nb 17:00
* stickster 17:00
* onekopaka 17:00
* ricky 17:00
-!- mizmo [n=duffy@nat/redhat/x-xjvducmcqyezityp] has quit "Sláinte Mhath!" 17:00
* hiemanshu is here 17:00
ricky ianweller_away, mchua, any-interested-advisory-board-people: ping 17:00
hiemanshu onekopaka: nb ? 17:01
onekopaka ricky: ianweller_away sent mail to the list saying he's gone. 17:01
ricky onekopaka: Oh, which list 17:01
onekopaka ricky: mizmo is also not here (hence her quiting the irc room) 17:01
onekopaka ricky: f-w-l 17:01
* hiemanshu dint get any 17:01
ricky All right then. 17:02
ricky #topic get-fedora redesign 17:02
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: get-fedora redesign (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites) 17:02
ricky #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-July/msg00088.html <- stickster's email about that 17:02
* hiemanshu doesnt like what mizmo did to the mockup 17:02
onekopaka #link [1] 17:02
ricky So mizmo posted a unfinished mockup today - I think we should hold back the comments until it's actually done, since it could still be changing a lot as she works on it 17:03
hiemanshu onekopaka: that mockup in my idea is _BAD_ 17:03
hiemanshu ricky: where are the other options? x86_64 17:03
stickster Critiques of in-progress works can be helpful 17:03
hiemanshu mainly thats what we spoke of 17:03
stickster hiemanshu: Can you be a bit more specific please? 17:03
onekopaka hiemanshu: I know, I figured that you would say that. 17:03
ricky stickster: Well, I'm saying this based on what mizmo said last meeting about not wanting to post her unfinished mockup 17:04
stickster ricky: OK, understandable 17:04
hiemanshu stickster: the main reason we wanted a new look because we wanted people to be able to find pages easy 17:04
stickster I think the thing to remember about this design is that it's going to be in accordance with the requirements that are being developed on FAB 17:04
ricky So did everybody see the stickster's email? 17:04
stickster Board meeting notes from yesterday are also good reading 17:05
* onekopaka looks at taht now. 17:05
hiemanshu ricky: not really, will read it after the meeting 17:05
onekopaka that* 17:05
stickster http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-07-30 17:05
ricky Basically, there was some disagreement about the target audience requirements for the page in the past, which led to the page being messy with our attempts to please everybody 17:05
onekopaka links = pain when using irssi 17:05
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ricky So the board has made the call of exactly who this page will be targetted at, so that there will be no question about those requirements 17:06
stickster There's a thread on FAB about this now, as a matter of fact. 17:06
hiemanshu ricky: is there a meeting log? 17:06
ricky Of course, how that gets implemented and for example, how the page targetted at people that know what they want is presented is still up to us 17:06
ricky hiemanshu: It wasn't an IRC meeting, so there's no log, but there are minutes posted on fedora-advisory-board 17:07
onekopaka ricky: a phone meeting? 17:07
ricky #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-July/msg00090.html board meeting minutes 17:07
hiemanshu ricky: hmmm, i wanted to read it out so i can have a proper idea what people really think 17:07
ricky hiemanshu: The summary of what a lot of people think is that the original design of the get-fedora page got derailed by trying to please everybody 17:08
* hiemanshu agrees 17:08
onekopaka especially with KDE. 17:08
stickster ricky: And in addition, we don't have a good enough presentation for the many custom spins that are done every cycle. 17:08
ricky For example the random inconsistent buttons on the left side that links to different arches/desktop environments 17:08
ricky Ah, yes - one big part that I left out is a redesign of spins.fedoraproject.org 17:09
hiemanshu ricky: a cleaner look like what other Distros have (Gentoo & Debian) would be better 17:09
stickster The Board wants two redesigns to happen. One will be a clear route to a single default spin that is the landing place for people who are new to Fedora or Linux in general. 17:09
stickster The second is a better showcase for all spins regardless of origin 17:09
ricky hiemanshu: Heh, I've looked at Debian's in the past, and unless they've changed, I don't want our download experience to be like that :-) 17:09
onekopaka DEBIAN!! 17:09
ricky So there's get-fedora and spins.fedoraproject.org 17:10
onekopaka debian's is bad. 17:10
hiemanshu ricky: well we shows the archs and show options like the get-fedora-all page 17:10
onekopaka hiemanshu: no it doesn't. 17:10
ricky The requirements for get-fedora are basically to be friendly to the types of people listed in stickster's email 17:10
stickster Design has to be informed by knowing whom a page is intended to serve. 17:10
hiemanshu ricky: well most people love it NEAT and CLEAN 17:10
onekopaka hiemanshu: http://www.debian.org/distrib/ 17:10
stickster By defining the audience it will be easier to produce an effective design. 17:10
onekopaka hiemanshu: says nothing about archs, KDE, Xfce, or anything like that. 17:11
ricky The requirement for spins.fedoraproject.org is that it targets people who basically knows what a spin is and why they'd want to use one - does that sound right, stickster? 17:11
caillon yes 17:11
stickster ricky: We still have to bring more detail to that, but yes, that's the general idea 17:11
hiemanshu onekopaka: i mean by the ARCHs option, on the DVD FTP page 17:11
ricky Oh cool, thanks for making this, caillon 17:11
onekopaka hiemanshu: that's an FTP directory listing, which we have too. 17:11
ricky One interesting part of spins.fedoraproject.org is that we want to allow the spins creators to be able to modify descriptions, etc. of their own spin's pages (while sticking to the websites schedule of course) 17:12
hiemanshu onekopaka: havent seen it much 17:12
ricky So we'd like to have the spins.fp.o redesign ready for F12 17:13
onekopaka hiemanshu: you just go to download.fedoraproject.org.. 17:13
* hiemanshu will try a mockup 17:13
ricky It might not be 100% complete in terms of the process for spins creators to enter their info, but I'd like it to be complete from the user-facing side 17:13
hiemanshu ricky: for Spin creators i have an idea though 17:14
onekopaka hiemanshu: you said before that you can't do a mockup to save your life. 17:14
stickster ricky: I think we'd definitely be able to accommodate custom content even at the outset -- although it might be a more centralized process of getting that onto the page 17:14
hiemanshu onekopaka: i said i cant, but i have been learning GIMP lately 17:14
stickster Later we might try for more decentralized administration 17:14
ricky stickster: Yeah, at worst, the process would be getting everybody into the web group and having them commit directly to fedora-web.git (while being aware of string freeze dates, etc.0 17:14
stickster ricky: Right. 17:15
hiemanshu ricky: but you can make custom gits as well 17:15
ricky For F12, this will probably be done as something in the style of what we have in the git repo 17:15
hiemanshu ricky: its might be a little messy but secure 17:15
ricky For F13 and beyond, we could look at whether something like zikula would fulfill our needs of being easy to edit/translate by spins creators better 17:16
onekopaka hmm. 17:16
stickster Anyway, I think the main points to understand from the Websites team perspective are: 1. The requirements will be developed openly by the Board on the FAB list. 2. The requirements will form the basis for the designs the Board will consider and approve. 3. We are sincerely trying for a F12 rollout if possible. 17:16
stickster and 17:16
stickster 4. The plan is that the Websites team will serve as the implementation point, as is the case currently. 17:17
onekopaka mmkay. 17:17
* hiemanshu is always ready to help 17:18
ricky stickster: implementation = design + HTML/CSS/etc. for fitting the goals set by the board, right? 17:18
caillon though the board has a set of general requirements already, and i think paul's post covers that as do the minutes. we're looking for questions from e.g. the websites team to help fill in the gaps 17:18
ricky OK, so just to get some tasks out there: 17:19
hiemanshu caillon: best way to contact he board? 17:19
caillon fedora-advisory-board@ 17:19
stickster The Board has specifically asked mizmo and ricky to lead, respectively, the visual design and the code generation/maintenance 17:19
stickster ricky: ^ Is that clear enough? 17:19
ricky #action subscribe to fedora-advisory-board and contribute to the discussion about the target audience of get-fedora and spins.fp.o 17:19
ricky stickster: Yup, thanks 17:19
ricky #link https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board is the subscription page 17:20
stickster ricky: Thanks 17:20
* hiemanshu just subscribed 17:21
ricky The idea is for the discussions to take place for a week or two there, before stuff is finalized, and we can start looking at how well each mockup satisifies those goals 17:21
ricky So does anybody from the board/websites have any questions/comments on this? 17:21
caillon hiemanshu, also, worth noting is there is a public IRC board meeting next thursday, Q&A are welcome there 17:22
onekopaka #info Public IRC FAB meeting next thursday, Q&A welcome 17:22
ricky #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC 17:22
hiemanshu caillon: i am not here next thursday, have an operation on wednesday so i will not be able to make it 17:22
ricky hiemanshu: Good luck, hope you get will soon :-) 17:23
hiemanshu ricky: do we have many mockups ready for the board to choose or take one and polish it? 17:23
ricky **well 17:23
hiemanshu ricky: thank you :) 17:23
ricky hiemanshu: I know mizmo has some mockups for get-fedora and spins.fp.o that she might clean up to make sure they meet the new requirements 17:23
ricky Everybody's welcome to join in with the mockups of course 17:23
hiemanshu ricky: i could try one 17:24
stickster I'll find those spins mockups, hang on 17:24
* hiemanshu waits 17:24
stickster Well, these are older ones 17:25
stickster I think they were based on the idea of including a spin generator on the site. We are deliberately *not* including that in the scope of this redesign. It could be added later. 17:25
hiemanshu stickster: we could take THOSE and polish them to the new needs 17:25
stickster [2] 17:26
stickster [3] 17:26
stickster I think those were in the originally designed group of mockups 17:26
* ricky likes the idea of a visual explanation of what a spin is :-) 17:27
* hiemanshu nods 17:27
stickster The first is more of a central site, a portal which is nicer than a big FTP list of .iso files 17:27
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* hiemanshu hates the Tracker idea though 17:27
stickster The second is a per-spin page, where each spin owner/SIG could describe how awesome its spin is. 17:27
ricky As a side note, there's a spin that already has its own page based on another design: http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/ 17:27
ricky Anyway, just dumping a bunch of previous work out here that design people can hopefully draw some good ideas from :-) 17:28
ricky For example, one question is - how much space for information, etc. should be given to each spin? 17:28
hiemanshu ricky: could we have a web & design joint meeting? 17:29
hiemanshu Since they are both closely related and we would know more people who can help us 17:29
ricky Sure, although mizmo is the main design person that has been doing most of the web mockups :-) 17:29
stickster ricky: I think those details are well worth parsing out with the various designers. Details about how the visual design can best achieve the requirements. 17:29
ricky We can talk to them on IRC in #fedora-design any time though - not sure how many of the active people on the mailing list are on IRC though 17:29
stickster ricky: There are a couple options; one is to simply have discussions happen on the fedora-websites-list. In other words, Websites is the focal point for involved people bringing different skill sets in. 17:30
hiemanshu ricky: i said meeting for that reason, so people know about it and take the effort to attend in 17:30
hiemanshu it** 17:31
ricky stickster: That's kind of what I envisioned in the cross-team effort that I think websites is :-) 17:31
stickster ricky: I'm seeing that we're a half-hour in -- so if you have other business to cover don't feel like you have to hold this topic open for my and caillon's sake, although we're happy to stay as long as you require 17:31
stickster ricky: I was throwing you a bone there, see? 17:31
ricky Hehe :-) 17:31
ricky OK, so is everybody good on this then? 17:32
hiemanshu stickster: dont spoil the little boy :) 17:32
hiemanshu ricky: yup 17:32
onekopaka ricky: yep 17:32
ricky Cool 17:32
ricky #topic Tasks 17:32
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Tasks (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites) 17:32
ricky One tiny little update with my talk with docs 17:32
ricky I just recently found out about http://docs.fedoraproject.org/installation-quick-start-guide/ 17:33
ricky I think if that got translated into a lot of languages like the installation guide, it might be something better to point to from get-fedora 17:33
ricky #link http://docs.fedoraproject.org/installation-quick-start-guide/f11/en-US/html-single/ 17:33
* nb would like to proceed to blogs asap.... i must be leaving soon 17:33
ricky That has Live CD install instructions (which is what we're pushing as the default way of installation) 17:33
ricky And screenshots, which I like :-) 17:34
ricky OK, nb - do you want to talk about blogs? 17:34
hiemanshu ricky: i heard a person complain about no live cd install guide 17:34
nb ricky, sure 17:34
* nb does not have a whole lot to report, we are deployed to production, FAS auth is working, thanks to sijis 17:34
nb we are working on making SSL work 17:34
nb the only easy solution I can think of is make value1/2 listen on port 443 for SSL 17:35
hiemanshu nb: pretty much same as last time we spoke? 17:35
nb and have the proxy connect to it using SSL 17:35
ricky And that's an idea that we're not crazy about in Infrastructure :-( 17:35
* onekopaka still doesn't know what to do about that HAproxy-side 17:35
nb it detects the connection is not ssl, and so it starts a redirect loop because it is trying to redirect to https://blogs 17:35
nb ricky, yeah 17:35
ricky My suggestion would be to talk to other wordpress sysadmins 17:35
ricky Either that, or dive into the code, and figure out how to fake wordpress-mu out 17:36
ricky Well, preferably the first one first, since they might have an answer to the second :-) 17:36
hiemanshu ricky: from being a wordpress admin for quite long, you cannot fake anything until it supports it 17:36
onekopaka I did submit something to Barry's WP contact page. 17:36
nb ricky, i will work on one or both of those ideas, i meant to last week but was otherwise occupied. I was elected last week as President of CAcert so I've been kind of busy 17:36
nb onekopaka, who's barry? 17:36
ricky Haha, congrats 17:36
onekopaka nb: "Systems Wrangler" for Automattic. 17:37
nb ricky, yeah, i wasn't even nominated for the board until the morning of our SGM (Special General Meeting) 17:37
hiemanshu nb: Congrats mate 17:37
nb someone mentioned why wasnt i on the list of candidates, i was like well, noone nominated me 17:37
hiemanshu nb: back to blogs please ;) 17:37
ricky OK, so apart from asking Barry, I guess we can see if there are any more sysadmin-types on their IRC chanenl 17:38
ricky **channel 17:38
hiemanshu ricky: #wordpressdev 17:38
nb hiemanshu, yeah true 17:38
nb ricky, and #wpmu 17:38
hiemanshu ricky: oops wrong link 17:38
hiemanshu nb: the channel closed down 17:39
ricky  :-( 17:39
ricky I guess it's part of the merging with wordpress? 17:39
nb #wpmu is not closed 17:39
nb people are still there 17:39
ricky Oh 17:39
onekopaka #wordpressdev is? 17:39
ricky Oh, heh 17:39
nb oh ok 17:40
hiemanshu yup #wordpressdev 17:40
* hiemanshu remembers visiting it a couple of weeks back 17:40
ricky OK. If it's easier to do it with 100% https externally with http from haproxy though, I'm all for that too :-) 17:41
hiemanshu /msg alis list *channelname* (within the *) works to find a list of channels in FreeNode 17:41
hiemanshu ricky: i dont like the idea of faking it 17:41
ricky OK, so does anybody have anything else on blogs? 17:41
onekopaka nope. 17:41
hiemanshu you ll need to edit core files 17:41
hiemanshu which is what me mainly need 17:42
onekopaka except 17:42
onekopaka I have HAProxy on my server 17:42
onekopaka same version as in infra 17:42
hiemanshu onekopaka: i said wordpress faking 17:42
onekopaka so we can test configs 17:42
ricky hiemanshu: The changes would be worth sending upstream though 17:42
onekopaka hiemanshu: I know. 17:42
hiemanshu ricky: most people dont fake it, they leave it in HTTP or get a proper server to use it with 17:43
hiemanshu onekopaka: so wordpress faking would require core file changes 17:43
onekopaka hiemanshu: I know. 17:43
ricky Yeah, but having one server with it exposed to the outside is not proper for us :-) 17:43
hiemanshu unless we can do it in another way 17:43
onekopaka hiemanshu: but I was going to say something. 17:43
ricky But anyway, if it involves modifying code, make sure the modifications are good, and work to get them included upstream 17:43
hiemanshu ricky: so FAKING is not we want, so rule that out 17:43
ricky It might be good to ask ahead of time so that you don't step on their toes with the merging into wordpress 17:44
hiemanshu ricky: why would people in wordpress include it? 17:44
hiemanshu they dont want people to use FAKE SSL 17:44
ricky Because it's a common setup to have a reverse proxy to an app server 17:44
onekopaka ricky: not this way. 17:44
onekopaka ricky: people will more likely use nginx, which is what wp.com uses. 17:45
ricky mmcgrath and the folks in #fedora-admin have years more sysadmin experience than I do, so they say it's common, I believe him :-) 17:45
ricky s/him/them 17:45
ricky Anyway, until then: 17:46
onekopaka http://barry.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/load-balancer-update/ 17:46
ricky #task Make a clear notice on http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/ that it's not 100% ready yet and warn people NOT to login without SSL 17:46
onekopaka they do have a proxy > app server infra. 17:46
onekopaka but it's not with HAproxy 17:46
onekopaka it's with nginx. 17:47
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ricky OK, but is proxy -> app http or https? 17:47
onekopaka ricky: I tried to ask, but I can't find out. 17:47
hiemanshu ricky: an httpd change would serve us better than a WPMU change 17:48
onekopaka ricky: and who knows? maybe nginx sends through the fact that it's ssl. 17:48
hiemanshu onekopaka: #nginx 17:48
* hiemanshu will be back in a few 17:48
ricky Well, we're sticking with haproxy for the near future, so it's probably better to concentrate on getting things to work with that 17:49
onekopaka back to what I tried to say 17:49
onekopaka I have HAProxy on my server so we can test configs without screwing up the infra ones. 17:49
ricky OK, then let us know if you have any luck with the setup we need. 17:50
ricky So does anybody else have anything else on blogs? 17:50
onekopaka I haven't had luck and that's the problem 17:50
onekopaka I don't know people who know all the options of HAProxy. 17:50
ricky Also, does anybody want to take that task real quick after the meeting? 17:50
onekopaka because the documentation doesn't help. 17:51
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ricky Oops, 17:51
ricky #action Make a clear notice on http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/ that it's not 100% ready yet and warn people NOT to login without SSL 17:51
ricky onekopaka: Can you get that ^? 17:52
onekopaka I guess. 17:52
* hiemanshu is back 17:52
ricky Cool. 17:52
hiemanshu ricky: what task? 17:52
ricky Look a few lines up :-) 17:53
hiemanshu ricky: i see two taks 17:53
hiemanshu tasks* 17:53
hiemanshu 1)Proxy 2) the action stuff 17:53
* onekopaka is still upset that the theme totally screws the admin bar. 17:53
hiemanshu onekopaka: which theme? 17:53
ricky onekopaka: Feel free to work on fixes 17:54
onekopaka hiemanshu: the blogs.fp.o theme. 17:54
onekopaka it's really f'ing anoying 17:54
onekopaka annoying* 17:54
hiemanshu onekopaka: i can help with that 17:54
onekopaka because there's no site admin link in the sidebar 17:54
onekopaka I have no idea how the admin bar got screwed up 17:55
onekopaka why it gets thrown in the FOOTER. 17:55
nb onekopaka, we can add a site admin link 17:55
ricky #action Fix the problem iwth the admin bar 17:55
ricky OK, we're near the 1 hour mark, so 17:55
ricky #topic Open floor 17:55
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Open floor (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites) 17:55
ricky Anything else to discuss this meeting? 17:55
onekopaka and the admin bar is the cleanest way to get to various admin pages. 17:55
hiemanshu First off ricky thanks for making the right choice ;) 17:55
ricky Thanks to the board for their attention to the get-fedora thing - if there are any questions in the future about the target audience for those pages, we can just tell them to take it to the board :-) 17:56
* hiemanshu will make it a point to read the emails and know what the board wants 17:57
onekopaka so back to my local HAProxy story.. 17:57
hiemanshu onekopaka: yeah go on 17:57
onekopaka we need a couple servers that run SSL. 17:57
onekopaka I have one. 17:57
onekopaka (this is just for testing HAProxy config) 17:58
ricky You can always run two on different port 17:58
ricky **ports 17:58
hiemanshu onekopaka: i can try ask my clients for a couple 17:58
hiemanshu asking** 17:58
onekopaka ricky: nope. I wouldn't do such a thing. 17:58
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onekopaka ricky: it was already a pain to get SSL working in the first place. 17:59
onekopaka so 17:59
hiemanshu sijis: too early for the next meeting ;) 17:59
onekopaka it just needs to have SSL, and be willing to be hit by my HAProxy instance 17:59
onekopaka my IP, incase you want to track, is 76.121.249.193 18:00
hiemanshu onekopaka: i have a shared web server, not sure if that would work 18:00
onekopaka hiemanshu: does it have SSL accessible? 18:00
hiemanshu onekopaka: yup 18:00
hiemanshu onekopaka: i can give you the details if you want to have a look 18:00
onekopaka hmm 18:01
onekopaka so 18:02
sijis hiemanshu: :) 18:02
onekopaka I may be willing to open an account on my mac for you people to obtain access. 18:02
onekopaka maybe. 18:02
onekopaka so. 18:03
hiemanshu onekopaka: would love to ;) 18:03
hiemanshu sijis: read the logs, lots of stuff happening 18:03
sijis hiemanshu: yup.. will do. gotta fix my monitor resolution though.. i jackked it up :( 18:04
hiemanshu sijis: changed it 640x480 huh? 18:04
hiemanshu or 320x240? 18:04
ricky OK, we're a bit over the hour mark, so I'll end the meeting for now, and we can continue talking here 18:04
ricky #endmeeting 18:04
onekopaka anyone who would want access would have to send their public key my way. 18:04
-!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: The Fedora Websites team maintains the official Fedora Project websites (http://fedoraproject.org/) | Want to help us? Contact the respective leaders listed here : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites#Projects | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites 18:04
zodbot Meeting ended Fri Jul 31 18:04:30 2009 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . 18:04
zodbot Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-07-31/fedora-websites.2009-07-31-17.00.html 18:04
zodbot Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-07-31/fedora-websites.2009-07-31-17.00.txt 18:04
zodbot Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-07-31/fedora-websites.2009-07-31-17.00.log.html 18:04

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