Meeting:Docs IRC log 20081203

-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation		11:20
quaid	<meeting>	11:20
quaid	today I've got irc log and summary again	11:20
quaid	ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room	11:20
quaid	\-> quaid	11:20
quaid	ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait	11:20
quaid	ok, then, welcome, and ...	11:21
stickster	Yeah, done.	11:21
bpepple	quaid: did you guys not move for DST?	11:21
quaid	bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't	11:21
bpepple	ah.	11:21
quaid	bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally	11:21
quaid	at the same time regardless of region	11:21
quaid	"Fedora time"	11:21
dwmw2_yoyo	'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :)	11:21
* quaid does his MC Hammer imitation		11:22
bpepple	quaid: yeah, seems reasonable.	11:22
dwmw2_yoyo	you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does?	11:22
jjmcd	Pick a county in Indiana	11:22
ke4qqq	dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol	11:22
bpepple	dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo.	11:22
quaid	dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea	11:22
-!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"]		11:22
quaid	so i don't know how far off all those countries are	11:22
quaid	hence, a decree and such	11:23
* quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now		11:23
quaid	DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting	11:23
* ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change		11:23
quaid	yet the reasons	11:23
quaid	people pick meeting times	11:23
jjmcd	ke4qqq: exactly	11:23
quaid	are based on local time events	11:23
dwmw2_yoyo	ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month...	11:23
quaid	that move with DST	11:23
quaid	ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all	11:24
stickster	Right, humans move in local time.	11:24
jjmcd	quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time	11:24
dwmw2_yoyo	whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others.	11:24
-!- j-rod [n=j-rod@static-72-93-233-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"]		11:24
quaid	shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci?	11:25
* stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing		11:25
dwmw2_yoyo	yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting?	11:25
ke4qqq	regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide	11:25
quaid	stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks	11:25
stickster	look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup.	11:26
quaid	ok, shall we move on?	11:26
stickster	+1	11:26
laubersm	+1	11:26
* quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ...		11:26
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle		11:26
quaid	I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :)	11:27
quaid	http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html	11:27
quaid	so there are some points there and some I contend	11:28
-!- fozzmoo [n=fozz@209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting		11:28
knurd	quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-)	11:29
fozzmoo	Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around.	11:29
stickster	I think the "condensed version" has some merit	11:29
knurd	turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan	11:29
quaid	understood	11:29
stickster	But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen	11:29
* ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well.		11:29
quaid	oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part	11:29
stickster	That should be easy to do	11:30
quaid	in that, without hands, it's an idea	11:30
quaid	while others are doable	11:30
jjmcd	There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert	11:30
quaid	yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc.	11:30
quaid	jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat	11:30
quaid	so there was general interest up front	11:30
quaid	and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level	11:30
stickster	We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release	11:30
stickster	And stick to that script for the release	11:31
quaid	which ideas?	11:31
-!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs@pppoe2-ves.broadcom.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]		11:31
stickster	single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc.	11:31
stickster	That way they don't get lost in the shuffle	11:31
stickster	We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP.	11:31
quaid	right	11:32
* quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures		11:33
quaid	yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me	11:33
quaid	too much process stuck in the heads of too few.	11:33
quaid	not by intention, of course :)	11:33
stickster	quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time	11:33
* quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need}		11:33
quaid	sure	11:34
* stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-)		11:35
quaid	yeah, but also ... leaving room	11:35
jjmcd	I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too	11:35
stickster	Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability	11:36
quaid	exactly	11:36
stickster	It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down.	11:36
quaid	training during quiet times	11:36
quaid	word!	11:36
quaid	or, you know, die scaling it	11:36
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ke4qqq	are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon??	11:37
-!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui@cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]		11:37
ke4qqq	or is that too short a timeframe	11:37
quaid	yes, no	11:37
quaid	Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs	11:38
* quaid pulling from Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table		11:38
stickster	Hm, we'll need to update these dates	11:40
-!- hno [n=hno@pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting []		11:41
-!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk		11:41
stickster	*chirp chirp	11:41
stickster	I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this	11:42
stickster	I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10	11:42
* jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity		11:43
stickster	It pays better than being a rock star so far	11:44
jjmcd	;-)	11:44
stickster	But I was never that big a rock star :-D	11:44
stickster	Did quaid leave us?	11:45
-!- jtibu [n=jtibu@uniaraxa.edu.br] has joined #fedora-meeting		11:45
quaid	srry	11:45
quaid	wrong channel?	11:45
stickster	We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate	11:46
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom	11:46
quaid	stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel	11:47
-!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away		11:47
quaid	:)	11:47
stickster	I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D	11:47
quaid	no, I thought that was on topic	11:47
stickster	Anyhoo...	11:47
quaid	it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh	11:48
stickster	OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas.	11:48
quaid	ok, what else did we learn this release	11:48
stickster	more on my topic later in #fedora-docs.	11:48
quaid	yeah, I'll add a task	11:48
stickster	We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM	11:49
quaid	updates after the release, right?	11:49
stickster	right	11:49
stickster	We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days.	11:49
stickster	Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./	11:50
quaid	ok	11:50
quaid	let's see ... anything else come to mind today?	11:51
quaid	I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document	11:51
quaid	s/pour/bleed/	11:52
jjmcd	I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news	11:52
* stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors.		11:52
quaid	stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat	11:53
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* jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming		11:53
quaid	just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive	11:53
quaid	s/place/method/	11:53
stickster	quaid: I'm missing what you're saying.	11:54
stickster	Probably the decongestants.	11:54
quaid	stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong	11:54
quaid	stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming	11:54
quaid	that I've been pointing to Archive:	11:54
stickster	A LOT of cruft.	11:54
quaid	yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic)	11:55
stickster	Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc....	11:55
quaid	yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document	11:55
ke4qqq	it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner	11:55
quaid	and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team	11:55
ke4qqq	who is responsible for keeping a page up to date	11:55
quaid	ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]]	11:56
quaid	easy way to steward and not lose track	11:56
quaid	ke4qqq: sure then	11:56
quaid	we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories	11:56
ke4qqq	and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon	11:57
quaid	jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you?	11:57
-!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting		11:57
* Sparks likes the "unowned" cat		11:57
jjmcd	I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work	11:57
jjmcd	But I'm waiting to see	11:58
stickster	We have a Needs love already	11:58
stickster	Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO	11:58
quaid	jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links	11:58
-!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has quit [Client Quit]		11:58
quaid	jjmcd: and setup page forwards	11:58
stickster	Yes, it does.	11:58
jjmcd	You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for	11:59
quaid	jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy	12:00
quaid	and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard	12:00
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jjmcd	Certainly it is far from perfect	12:00
quaid	so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that	12:00
quaid	also, categorization is *key*	12:01
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quaid	each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat	12:01
jjmcd	If we're liberal with categories that could help	12:01
jjmcd	Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting.	12:01
quaid	jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically	12:02
quaid		12:02
stickster	Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques	12:02
stickster	"You must know our standard!"	12:02
quaid	you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page	12:02
quaid	jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon	12:02
quaid	ok, we are over the line	12:03
quaid	timewise	12:03
stickster	heh, almost jinx	12:03
* fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors		12:03
jjmcd	Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving	12:03
quaid	fugolini: we were going to move over ...	12:03
fugolini	ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time	12:04
fugolini	it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call	12:04
fugolini	call roll, I don't know which is the right form	12:04
quaid	well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion	12:04
quaid	you call the roll to get the roll call	12:04
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quaid	</meeting>	12:05

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