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-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation 11:20
quaid <meeting> 11:20
quaid today I've got irc log and summary again 11:20
quaid ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room 11:20
quaid \-> quaid 11:20
quaid ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait 11:20
quaid ok, then, welcome, and ... 11:21
stickster Yeah, done. 11:21
bpepple quaid: did you guys not move for DST? 11:21
quaid bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't 11:21
bpepple ah. 11:21
quaid bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally 11:21
quaid at the same time regardless of region 11:21
quaid "Fedora time" 11:21
dwmw2_yoyo 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :) 11:21
* quaid does his MC Hammer imitation 11:22
bpepple quaid: yeah, seems reasonable. 11:22
dwmw2_yoyo you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does? 11:22
jjmcd Pick a county in Indiana 11:22
ke4qqq dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol 11:22
bpepple dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo. 11:22
quaid dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea 11:22
-!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] 11:22
quaid so i don't know how far off all those countries are 11:22
quaid hence, a decree and such 11:23
* quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now 11:23
quaid DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 11:23
* ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change 11:23
quaid yet the reasons 11:23
quaid people pick meeting times 11:23
jjmcd ke4qqq: exactly 11:23
quaid are based on local time events 11:23
dwmw2_yoyo ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month... 11:23
quaid that move with DST 11:23
quaid ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all 11:24
stickster Right, humans move in local time. 11:24
jjmcd quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time 11:24
dwmw2_yoyo whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others. 11:24
-!- j-rod [n=j-rod@static-72-93-233-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"] 11:24
quaid shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci? 11:25
* stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing 11:25
dwmw2_yoyo yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting? 11:25
ke4qqq regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide 11:25
quaid stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks 11:25
stickster look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup. 11:26
quaid ok, shall we move on? 11:26
stickster +1 11:26
laubersm +1 11:26
* quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ... 11:26
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle 11:26
quaid I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :) 11:27
quaid http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html 11:27
quaid so there are some points there and some I contend 11:28
-!- fozzmoo [n=fozz@209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:28
knurd quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-) 11:29
fozzmoo Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around. 11:29
stickster I think the "condensed version" has some merit 11:29
knurd turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan 11:29
quaid understood 11:29
stickster But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen 11:29
* ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. 11:29
quaid oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part 11:29
stickster That should be easy to do 11:30
quaid in that, without hands, it's an idea 11:30
quaid while others are doable 11:30
jjmcd There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert 11:30
quaid yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc. 11:30
quaid jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat 11:30
quaid so there was general interest up front 11:30
quaid and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level 11:30
stickster We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release 11:30
stickster And stick to that script for the release 11:31
quaid which ideas? 11:31
-!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs@pppoe2-ves.broadcom.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31
stickster single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc. 11:31
stickster That way they don't get lost in the shuffle 11:31
stickster We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP. 11:31
quaid right 11:32
* quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures 11:33
quaid yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me 11:33
quaid too much process stuck in the heads of too few. 11:33
quaid not by intention, of course :) 11:33
stickster quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time 11:33
* quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need} 11:33
quaid sure 11:34
* stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-) 11:35
quaid yeah, but also ... leaving room 11:35
jjmcd I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too 11:35
stickster Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability 11:36
quaid exactly 11:36
stickster It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down. 11:36
quaid training during quiet times 11:36
quaid word! 11:36
quaid or, you know, die scaling it 11:36
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ke4qqq are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon?? 11:37
-!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui@cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37
ke4qqq or is that too short a timeframe 11:37
quaid yes, no 11:37
quaid Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs 11:38
* quaid pulling from Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table 11:38
stickster Hm, we'll need to update these dates 11:40
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-!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 11:41
stickster *chirp chirp 11:41
stickster I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this 11:42
stickster I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10 11:42
* jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity 11:43
stickster It pays better than being a rock star so far 11:44
jjmcd  ;-) 11:44
stickster But I was never that big a rock star :-D 11:44
stickster Did quaid leave us? 11:45
-!- jtibu [n=jtibu@uniaraxa.edu.br] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:45
quaid srry 11:45
quaid wrong channel? 11:45
stickster We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate 11:46
stickster http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom 11:46
quaid stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel 11:47
-!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 11:47
quaid  :) 11:47
stickster I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D 11:47
quaid no, I thought that was on topic 11:47
stickster Anyhoo... 11:47
quaid it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh 11:48
stickster OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas. 11:48
quaid ok, what else did we learn this release 11:48
stickster more on my topic later in #fedora-docs. 11:48
quaid yeah, I'll add a task 11:48
stickster We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM 11:49
quaid updates after the release, right? 11:49
stickster right 11:49
stickster We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days. 11:49
stickster Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./ 11:50
quaid ok 11:50
quaid let's see ... anything else come to mind today? 11:51
quaid I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document 11:51
quaid s/pour/bleed/ 11:52
jjmcd I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news 11:52
* stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors. 11:52
quaid stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat 11:53
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* jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming 11:53
quaid just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive 11:53
quaid s/place/method/ 11:53
stickster quaid: I'm missing what you're saying. 11:54
stickster Probably the decongestants. 11:54
quaid stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong 11:54
quaid stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming 11:54
quaid that I've been pointing to Archive: 11:54
stickster A LOT of cruft. 11:54
quaid yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic) 11:55
stickster Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc.... 11:55
quaid yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document 11:55
ke4qqq it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner 11:55
quaid and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team 11:55
ke4qqq who is responsible for keeping a page up to date 11:55
quaid ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]] 11:56
quaid easy way to steward and not lose track 11:56
quaid ke4qqq: sure then 11:56
quaid we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories 11:56
ke4qqq and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon 11:57
quaid jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you? 11:57
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* Sparks likes the "unowned" cat 11:57
jjmcd I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work 11:57
jjmcd But I'm waiting to see 11:58
stickster We have a Needs love already 11:58
stickster Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO 11:58
quaid jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links 11:58
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quaid jjmcd: and setup page forwards 11:58
stickster Yes, it does. 11:58
jjmcd You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for 11:59
quaid jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy 12:00
quaid and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard 12:00
-!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:00
jjmcd Certainly it is far from perfect 12:00
quaid so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that 12:00
quaid also, categorization is *key* 12:01
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quaid each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat 12:01
jjmcd If we're liberal with categories that could help 12:01
jjmcd Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting. 12:01
quaid jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically 12:02
quaid 12:02
stickster Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques 12:02
stickster "You must know our standard!" 12:02
quaid you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page 12:02
quaid jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon 12:02
quaid ok, we are over the line 12:03
quaid timewise 12:03
stickster heh, almost jinx 12:03
* fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors 12:03
jjmcd Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving 12:03
quaid fugolini: we were going to move over ... 12:03
fugolini ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time 12:04
fugolini it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call 12:04
fugolini call roll, I don't know which is the right form 12:04
quaid well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion 12:04
quaid you call the roll to get the roll call 12:04
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quaid </meeting> 12:05

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