BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Feb-24

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-02-24

Attendees

• comphappy
• poelcat
• tk009
• John5342
• mcepl
• bigdufstuff
• adamw
• beland

Meeting Summary & Action Items

• We are officially done setting goals for Fedora 11
  • Goal will be triaging bugs for key components
  • https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/components
  • For Fedora 12 maybe we can create goals that are more measurable
• mcepl will create queries and RSS feeds for key components to be triaged
• comphappy will:
  • have metrics reporting working by this weekend
  • merge greasemonkey script created by mcepl to create triager signature into main Fedora triage greasemonkey script
  • make sure download link for greasemonkey script is working and accessible
• adamw will arrange and coordinate the first bug triage day

IRC Transcript

Tk009_afk	Hello, who's here? :)	07:01
beland	Greetings. 8)	07:01
John5342	hi all	07:01
Tk009_afk	Hello	07:01
Tk009_afk	Feeling better john?	07:02
John5342	still rather drugged up but back home now	07:02
John5342	so tons better	07:02
Tk009_afk	Well that is progress	07:02
Tk009_afk	Looks like just us	07:03
John5342	dont seem to have many of us this week	07:04
Tk009_afk	Hello big	07:04
bigdufstuff	hi	07:04
* poelcat here		07:04
poelcat	mcepl: jds2001 ping	07:05
Tk009_afk	None of the people we need are here adamw, iarlyy, comphappy and mcelp	07:05
mcepl	pong	07:05
poelcat	who is leading the meeting?	07:05
Tk009_afk	I am I think	07:05
poelcat	Tk009_afk: thanks for sending the reminder :)	07:05
poelcat	okay, go for it	07:05
Tk009_afk	:)	07:06
mcepl	I thought so ... :)	07:06
Tk009_afk	I didn't have much on the agenda	07:06
poelcat	do we have predefiend urls/queries for the key components?	07:07
poelcat	and rss feeds too	07:07
John5342	we all know we dont need a big agenda to fill an hour :)	07:07
Tk009_afk	The signature script and bug triage days	07:07
mcepl	and mentoring	07:07
* poelcat noted from reading last week's minutes we still seem unable to arrive at hard goals for F11		07:08
poelcat	so maybe they are as hard as they are going to get	07:08
Tk009_afk	Sorry I am on my blackberry my typing is a bit slow if someone wants to take the lead	07:08
beland	and goals	07:08
Tk009_afk	Did you have something to add on the goal	07:09
poelcat	ideally we would pick something that is measurable so we can tell if we meet our goal	07:09
poelcat	but i think we have tried long enough that it is time to move on	07:09
poelcat	maybe we'll have a better idea for F12	07:10
poelcat	and learn something from what we do for F11	07:10
poelcat	so anyone opposed to saying we are done trying to set goals for F11 ?	07:10
beland	Well, I was wondering what to put on the wiki page...	07:10
beland	It sounded like "try to triage bugs as they come in" was not sustainable.	07:10
poelcat	beland: historically it has not	07:11
* poelcat waits 60 more seconds, then moving on		07:11
mcepl	poelcat: just jinging in with those queries and RSS feeds -- I will make sure it happens.	07:12
poelcat	mcepl: excellent!	07:12
* poelcat was thinking one to capture all components and then individual ones for each component		07:12
Tk009_afk	I think we have done what we can on goals. After 5 weeks maybe we have to go with what we have	07:13
beland	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/FindingBugs has queries, only for all components in a given release.	07:13
beland	What have you come up with so far?	07:13
mcepl	poelcat: meaning, that components on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers should have query and RSS feed to such query?	07:13
poelcat	yes	07:13
poelcat	so when someone new shows up we can just say "here start with the bugs in this URL"	07:13
mcepl	or https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/components ?	07:13
mcepl	"yes" is not a good answer for "either ... or ..." question ...	07:14
poelcat	mcepl: you are correct, the second one	07:14
poelcat	mcepl: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/components	07:14
poelcat	i forgot we made that the canonical location	07:14
poelcat	we should probably say something about Fedora 11 at the top of that page	07:15
* poelcat will do it unless there is a volunteer		07:15
beland	As a motivational and organizational technique, I think it would be helpful to have a table that simply lists the number of NEW bugs for each component.	07:15
poelcat	next topic... signature script	07:15
poelcat	beland: great idea... does anyone know how to generate a table like that automatically?	07:16
poelcat	maybe tweaking one of the reports like this one? http://tinyurl.com/4cavl2	07:16
beland	(Or maybe only each "key" component as listed at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/components)	07:16
Tk009_afk	Comphappy is working on that I believe	07:16
Tk009_afk	I don't have the link on hand	07:17
poelcat	Tk009_afk: when i last saw it he was listing all components	07:17
poelcat	i saw mail that someone updated the greasemonkey script to add the signature	07:17
beland	If per-component is the best way to organize things, a reasonable goal would be to zero out the number of NEW bugs in each component, cycling through them one by one.	07:18
comphappy	tk009_afk, I am, but it is taking a while.	07:18
poelcat	did this get merged into the git repo that comphappy was originally working from?	07:18
poelcat	comphappy: do we have an ETC ?	07:18
--- Log closed Tue Feb 24 07:18:48 2009
--- Log opened Tue Feb 24 07:19:00 2009
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 141 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 140 normal]		07:19
-!- Irssi: Join to #fedora-meeting was synced in 21 secs		07:19
mcepl	beland: sure, that's what I do for my xorg+firefox bugs, but it leads even more to my model of "bugzappers as stewards of particular componetns" rather than "horde running through bugzilla looking for a mischief"	07:19
Tk009_afk	That is a idea that would work with bug triage days where we are all here	07:20
poelcat_	comphappy: do you have an estimate as to when the metrics site will be ready?	07:20
beland	People should also be able to self-start just by looking at the wiki, and if there's a particular place people are encouraged to start, that's a little less intimidating than "There are 7,000 NEW bugs. Good luck"	07:21
beland	I see that most people on the active triagers list haven't actually chosen a component.	07:22
comphappy	poelcat_: I dont see why it would not be up by the end of the week, but it will take some time to generate useful data	07:22
Tk009_afk	Our goal is bugs on the component list about 100 new bugs a day	07:22
comphappy	BZ cannot give me historical data on # of bugs of different status	07:22
beland	If you are only looking at "how many bugs are in the queue at the end of the week" vs. "how many bugs have gone through the queue all week", bugzilla reports will do, and I'm happy with that.	07:23
beland	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=bug_severity&y_axis_field=component&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&emailtype1=su	07:23
beland	bstring&email1=&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=	07:23
buggbot	<http://tinyurl.com/b7ptrp> (at bugzilla.redhat.com)	07:23
beland	lists NEW counts for all of the components.	07:23
poelcat_	what topic are we discussing right now?	07:23
beland	Oops, that was more than a mouthful.	07:23
comphappy	beland: that does not show history, which is what I am trying to do	07:24
* poelcat_ notes we have about three going on		07:24
beland	Right.	07:24
beland	But if it's taking a long time and is a lot of work, we can use reports in the meantime.	07:24
Tk009_afk	I thought we were on goals still	07:24
beland	Well, it's worthwhile to figure out how we want to measure our progress toward meeting goals.	07:25
beland	It sounds like there were some fuzzy goals decided on at previous meetings?	07:25
Tk009_afk	Many meetings	07:25
Tk009_afk	Can't force people to do what they don't want to	07:26
poelcat_	beland: we haven't been able to arrive at anything concrete so in the interest of not spending any more time I motioned to move on (early in the meeting)	07:26
* poelcat_ thinks six weeks is enough time to try :)		07:27
Tk009_afk	Agreed	07:27
poelcat_	and discussion can continue on the list, but hasn't	07:27
beland	Well, what do you think of the goal of zeroing out the queue for each component on a rotating basis?	07:27
Tk009_afk	I did try	07:27
beland	I'd like to try doing some triage, and it would be nice to have something concrete to work on.	07:27
poelcat_	Tk009_afk: yes, thanks for starting the thread	07:28
comphappy	I had thought that we had agreed to stabalized NEW count for our core components?	07:28
Tk009_afk	We have	07:28
poelcat_	comphappy: that is the high level goal, how will we know if we have succeeded?	07:28
Tk009_afk	That is the goal we set and voted on	07:28
beland	OK, that's a good goal...	07:30
beland	So for tracking purposes, why don't I use Bugzilla reports to get NEW numbers for each listed component, and post that on the /components page.	07:31
poelcat_	Tk009_afk: you are correct, i should not have said we don't have something concrete... we do, i was just hoping we could better measure it	07:31
beland	We can turn the /Goals page into a redirect.	07:31
* poelcat_ is trying to move the meeting forward, but we are 30 minutes in and still on this topic		07:31
beland	We can tell if we've met the goal by checking the report against the numbers stored in the wiki.	07:32
poelcat_	beland: would you be willing to start a mail thread on fedora-test-list ?	07:32
* poelcat_ promises to respond there		07:32
beland	Why?	07:32
John5342	beland: so we can move onto next topic	07:33
beland	Well, I'll do what I proposed and send mail about it, unless there are objections	07:33
poelcat_	beland: sounds good, thanks	07:34
poelcat_	what is the status of the greasemonkey script for adding the signature and is it in the git repo?	07:34
poelcat_	anyone?	07:35
mcepl	it should be	07:36
mcepl	it was working for me and somebody at #fedora-bugzappers but not 100% sure now	07:37
poelcat_	mcepl: what is the git url so we can put it in the notes?	07:37
mcepl	http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/scripts/greasemonkey/add_bugzappers_signature.user.js	07:37
poelcat_	:)	07:37
poelcat_	mcepl: should it be merged into the main fedora greasemonkey script that comphappy orginally worked on?	07:38
poelcat_	seems strange to have two	07:38
adamw	morning. sorry, guys	07:38
poelcat_	adamw: hi	07:39
mcepl	my stuff is at http://fedorapeople.org/gitweb?p=mcepl/public_git/greasemonkey.git;a=summary	07:39
mcepl	poelcat_: I thought comphappy was promising to sync my repo with the official greasemonkey one. Don't know what's the status	07:39
poelcat_	i really think we need one canonical location to send people to	07:39
poelcat_	comphappy: ?	07:39
comphappy	we are going to have gm as an rpm package if I can get the stupid mozillia profiles to cooperate	07:40
comphappy	and then the scripts will be shipped as a package that people update	07:40
poelcat_	comphappy: what is the interim plan?	07:41
comphappy	I can sync it, but I need to know when there is a change, as it is not automatic	07:41
poelcat_	couldn't we just have people refresh from git for now?	07:41
adamw	please don't make people learn how to work git just to download a script for triaging	07:42
adamw	we're working with volunteer bug triagers here, not developers	07:42
poelcat_	adamw: it's only two commands	07:42
mcepl	poelcat_: I think I can work a little bit more hard on my git-foo and push just scripts which are of interest to Fedora folks. Not sure whether it is possible	07:42
adamw	true, but...uh.	07:42
poelcat_	adamw: well, maybe you have a point	07:42
comphappy	peolcat: not really, when you think about it most of them do not have any git tools installed	07:43
poelcat_	i'm just trying to say that we need one place to point people all the time	07:43
mcepl	the problem is that I have different access bits than real Fedora volunteers and it is pretty complicated for me to pretend I am not a RH employee to develop the scripts.	07:43
John5342	but you dont need to install git to install from git repo. just a link to gitweb	07:43
mcepl	and so I try to have always plain URL just with Javascript file available (see http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/scripts/greasemonkey/add_bugzappers_signature.user.js)	07:43
poelcat_	we should have a siple place for people to get one fedora gm script	07:44
mcepl	but it is my understanding of the world, which needs to be fixed for Fedora volunteers	07:44
comphappy	I think I linked to the link in trac but I am not sure it ended up working	07:44
mcepl	and I don't mind if (after testing etc.) my scripts will be incldued into one overall Fedora scripts	07:44
poelcat_	comphappy: mcepl so what is our go forward plan? :)	07:47
comphappy	I will sync the repo, and make sure our download link is working	07:47
comphappy	I have a lot on my plate today, so it will be this evening before I get to it	07:48
mcepl	and I will help with any bugs which show up	07:48
poelcat_	sounds great :)	07:49
poelcat_	next topic... triage days	07:49
poelcat_	where are we at with them ?	07:50
adamw	need to start having them	07:50
adamw	preferably later	07:50
adamw	:P	07:50
adamw	(in the day)	07:50
poelcat_	has someone volunteered to lead or coordinate them?	07:50
John5342	well i know qa is doing something similar with testing. wonder if we can organise something similar with triage.	07:51
adamw	i don't think so. i'd do it if no one else wants to, although it doesn't have to be the same person each work, and it doesn't necessarily need that much 'leadership'	07:51
adamw	yeah, there are weekly test days, it's working quite well lately	07:51
adamw	s/work/week/	07:52
John5342	i can help but am already fully booked till at least middle of april	07:52
adamw	the other thing is to decide what exactly to do in them	07:53
poelcat_	adamw: lead away	07:53
mcepl	just get some component and get rid of bug triage it?	07:53
comphappy	I think that we are finding the busy people are all in bugzappers...	07:53
adamw	i liked comphappy's idea about using them to train people	07:53
John5342	certainly triage day can be both productive _and_ educational	07:54
adamw	but if everyone generally agrees it's a good idea and promises to try and show up :), i can start putting it together	07:54
mcepl	yeah, but still my offer for mentorees stand ... if there is somebody who is serious and preferably somewhere around desktop components, I will gladly hold his hands. I have currently only one fcami and I think I can do more.	07:54
John5342	as for tips for how to make it work we might be able to talk to the people handling qa.	07:54
adamw	mcepl: noted. you could maybe mail that guy who mailed the list recently?	07:55
mcepl	Was it the one I replied to?	07:56
comphappy	before the meeting ends, Is this what we want to monitor our goal? http://tinyurl.com/ccegmg note it is missing a few comp, I wanted to make something before the meeting ended	07:56
adamw	mcepl: no...Lalit Dhiri, topic "BugZappers"	07:56
adamw	comphappy: we'd want it as a graph with X as time and Y as quantity and New and Assigned as lines, I think	07:57
beland	comphappy: I think it's missing a few components, but you've got the idea.	07:57
adamw	object: make the lines flat or down	07:57
mcepl	adamw: you mean http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.testers/67991 ?	07:57
adamw	mcepl: yup	07:58
comphappy	yes, I will do that in the metrics one, but i was talking about the here and now	07:58
John5342	comphappy: seems like a good interim solution	07:58
poelcat_	comphappy: yes, but only NEW	07:58
beland	For triage days, we should pick a day, throw a page up on the wiki with instructions for how to get on IRC and listing willing IRC mentors, and make a list announcement.	07:59
poelcat_	if our goal is to have triaged (not in NEW) the identified components	07:59
adamw	beland: yes, that's basically my aim.	07:59
mcepl	adamw: I will take a look at it	08:00
comphappy	I will go ahead and add the rest of the comp, and remove assigned from the table	08:00
comphappy	It looks like we are out of time.	08:00
beland	Let me know when you are done, and I will copy the current numbers into the wiki.	08:00
beland	I'll be on #fedora-bugzappers.	08:01
mcepl	adamw: do you know whether he has Linux at all? (meaning that lalit guy)?	08:01
comphappy	mcepl: based on his sig I would say yes	08:02
* ltinkl zaps the zappers		08:03
mcepl	oh yes, OKL	08:03
poelcat_	we're overtime now... we can move to #fedora-bugzappers	08:03
poelcat_	thanks everyone!	08:03
beland	Tata	08:03

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