From Fedora Project Wiki
| -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation | 11:20 | |
| quaid | <meeting> | 11:20 |
|---|---|---|
| quaid | today I've got irc log and summary again | 11:20 |
| quaid | ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room | 11:20 |
| quaid | \-> quaid | 11:20 |
| quaid | ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait | 11:20 |
| quaid | ok, then, welcome, and ... | 11:21 |
| stickster | Yeah, done. | 11:21 |
| bpepple | quaid: did you guys not move for DST? | 11:21 |
| quaid | bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't | 11:21 |
| bpepple | ah. | 11:21 |
| quaid | bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally | 11:21 |
| quaid | at the same time regardless of region | 11:21 |
| quaid | "Fedora time" | 11:21 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :) | 11:21 |
| * quaid does his MC Hammer imitation | 11:22 | |
| bpepple | quaid: yeah, seems reasonable. | 11:22 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does? | 11:22 |
| jjmcd | Pick a county in Indiana | 11:22 |
| ke4qqq | dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol | 11:22 |
| bpepple | dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo. | 11:22 |
| quaid | dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea | 11:22 |
| -!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] | 11:22 | |
| quaid | so i don't know how far off all those countries are | 11:22 |
| quaid | hence, a decree and such | 11:23 |
| * quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now | 11:23 | |
| quaid | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting | 11:23 |
| * ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change | 11:23 | |
| quaid | yet the reasons | 11:23 |
| quaid | people pick meeting times | 11:23 |
| jjmcd | ke4qqq: exactly | 11:23 |
| quaid | are based on local time events | 11:23 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month... | 11:23 |
| quaid | that move with DST | 11:23 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all | 11:24 |
| stickster | Right, humans move in local time. | 11:24 |
| jjmcd | quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time | 11:24 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others. | 11:24 |
| -!- j-rod [n=j-rod@static-72-93-233-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"] | 11:24 | |
| quaid | shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci? | 11:25 |
| * stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing | 11:25 | |
| dwmw2_yoyo | yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting? | 11:25 |
| ke4qqq | regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide | 11:25 |
| quaid | stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks | 11:25 |
| stickster | look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup. | 11:26 |
| quaid | ok, shall we move on? | 11:26 |
| stickster | +1 | 11:26 |
| laubersm | +1 | 11:26 |
| * quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ... | 11:26 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle | 11:26 | |
| quaid | I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :) | 11:27 |
| quaid | http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html | 11:27 |
| quaid | so there are some points there and some I contend | 11:28 |
| -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz@209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:28 | |
| knurd | quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-) | 11:29 |
| fozzmoo | Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around. | 11:29 |
| stickster | I think the "condensed version" has some merit | 11:29 |
| knurd | turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan | 11:29 |
| quaid | understood | 11:29 |
| stickster | But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen | 11:29 |
| * ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. | 11:29 | |
| quaid | oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part | 11:29 |
| stickster | That should be easy to do | 11:30 |
| quaid | in that, without hands, it's an idea | 11:30 |
| quaid | while others are doable | 11:30 |
| jjmcd | There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert | 11:30 |
| quaid | yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc. | 11:30 |
| quaid | jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat | 11:30 |
| quaid | so there was general interest up front | 11:30 |
| quaid | and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level | 11:30 |
| stickster | We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release | 11:30 |
| stickster | And stick to that script for the release | 11:31 |
| quaid | which ideas? | 11:31 |
| -!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs@pppoe2-ves.broadcom.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 11:31 | |
| stickster | single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc. | 11:31 |
| stickster | That way they don't get lost in the shuffle | 11:31 |
| stickster | We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP. | 11:31 |
| quaid | right | 11:32 |
| * quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures | 11:33 | |
| quaid | yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me | 11:33 |
| quaid | too much process stuck in the heads of too few. | 11:33 |
| quaid | not by intention, of course :) | 11:33 |
| stickster | quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time | 11:33 |
| * quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need} | 11:33 | |
| quaid | sure | 11:34 |
| * stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-) | 11:35 | |
| quaid | yeah, but also ... leaving room | 11:35 |
| jjmcd | I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too | 11:35 |
| stickster | Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability | 11:36 |
| quaid | exactly | 11:36 |
| stickster | It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down. | 11:36 |
| quaid | training during quiet times | 11:36 |
| quaid | word! | 11:36 |
| quaid | or, you know, die scaling it | 11:36 |
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| ke4qqq | are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon?? | 11:37 |
| -!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui@cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 11:37 | |
| ke4qqq | or is that too short a timeframe | 11:37 |
| quaid | yes, no | 11:37 |
| quaid | Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs | 11:38 |
| * quaid pulling from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table | 11:38 | |
| stickster | Hm, we'll need to update these dates | 11:40 |
| -!- hno [n=hno@pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting [] | 11:41 | |
| -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk | 11:41 | |
| stickster | *chirp chirp | 11:41 |
| stickster | I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this | 11:42 |
| stickster | I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10 | 11:42 |
| * jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity | 11:43 | |
| stickster | It pays better than being a rock star so far | 11:44 |
| jjmcd | ;-) | 11:44 |
| stickster | But I was never that big a rock star :-D | 11:44 |
| stickster | Did quaid leave us? | 11:45 |
| -!- jtibu [n=jtibu@uniaraxa.edu.br] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:45 | |
| quaid | srry | 11:45 |
| quaid | wrong channel? | 11:45 |
| stickster | We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate | 11:46 |
| stickster | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom | 11:46 |
| quaid | stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel | 11:47 |
| -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away | 11:47 | |
| quaid | :) | 11:47 |
| stickster | I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D | 11:47 |
| quaid | no, I thought that was on topic | 11:47 |
| stickster | Anyhoo... | 11:47 |
| quaid | it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh | 11:48 |
| stickster | OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas. | 11:48 |
| quaid | ok, what else did we learn this release | 11:48 |
| stickster | more on my topic later in #fedora-docs. | 11:48 |
| quaid | yeah, I'll add a task | 11:48 |
| stickster | We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM | 11:49 |
| quaid | updates after the release, right? | 11:49 |
| stickster | right | 11:49 |
| stickster | We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days. | 11:49 |
| stickster | Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./ | 11:50 |
| quaid | ok | 11:50 |
| quaid | let's see ... anything else come to mind today? | 11:51 |
| quaid | I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document | 11:51 |
| quaid | s/pour/bleed/ | 11:52 |
| jjmcd | I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news | 11:52 |
| * stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors. | 11:52 | |
| quaid | stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat | 11:53 |
| -!- J5 [n=quintice@c-76-24-17-105.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:53 | |
| * jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming | 11:53 | |
| quaid | just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive | 11:53 |
| quaid | s/place/method/ | 11:53 |
| stickster | quaid: I'm missing what you're saying. | 11:54 |
| stickster | Probably the decongestants. | 11:54 |
| quaid | stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong | 11:54 |
| quaid | stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming | 11:54 |
| quaid | that I've been pointing to Archive: | 11:54 |
| stickster | A LOT of cruft. | 11:54 |
| quaid | yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic) | 11:55 |
| stickster | Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc.... | 11:55 |
| quaid | yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document | 11:55 |
| ke4qqq | it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner | 11:55 |
| quaid | and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team | 11:55 |
| ke4qqq | who is responsible for keeping a page up to date | 11:55 |
| quaid | ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]] | 11:56 |
| quaid | easy way to steward and not lose track | 11:56 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: sure then | 11:56 |
| quaid | we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories | 11:56 |
| ke4qqq | and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon | 11:57 |
| quaid | jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you? | 11:57 |
| -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:57 | |
| * Sparks likes the "unowned" cat | 11:57 | |
| jjmcd | I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work | 11:57 |
| jjmcd | But I'm waiting to see | 11:58 |
| stickster | We have a Needs love already | 11:58 |
| stickster | Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO | 11:58 |
| quaid | jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links | 11:58 |
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| quaid | jjmcd: and setup page forwards | 11:58 |
| stickster | Yes, it does. | 11:58 |
| jjmcd | You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for | 11:59 |
| quaid | jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy | 12:00 |
| quaid | and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard | 12:00 |
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| jjmcd | Certainly it is far from perfect | 12:00 |
| quaid | so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that | 12:00 |
| quaid | also, categorization is *key* | 12:01 |
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| quaid | each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat | 12:01 |
| jjmcd | If we're liberal with categories that could help | 12:01 |
| jjmcd | Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting. | 12:01 |
| quaid | jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically | 12:02 |
| quaid | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation | 12:02 |
| stickster | Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques | 12:02 |
| stickster | "You must know our standard!" | 12:02 |
| quaid | you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page | 12:02 |
| quaid | jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon | 12:02 |
| quaid | ok, we are over the line | 12:03 |
| quaid | timewise | 12:03 |
| stickster | heh, almost jinx | 12:03 |
| * fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors | 12:03 | |
| jjmcd | Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving | 12:03 |
| quaid | fugolini: we were going to move over ... | 12:03 |
| fugolini | ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time | 12:04 |
| fugolini | it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call | 12:04 |
| fugolini | call roll, I don't know which is the right form | 12:04 |
| quaid | well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion | 12:04 |
| quaid | you call the roll to get the roll call | 12:04 |
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| quaid | </meeting> | 12:05 |
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