From Fedora Project Wiki
| -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation | 11:20 | |
| quaid | <meeting> | 11:20 |
|---|---|---|
| quaid | today I've got irc log and summary again | 11:20 |
| quaid | ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room | 11:20 |
| quaid | \-> quaid | 11:20 |
| quaid | ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait | 11:20 |
| quaid | ok, then, welcome, and ... | 11:21 |
| stickster | Yeah, done. | 11:21 |
| bpepple | quaid: did you guys not move for DST? | 11:21 |
| quaid | bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't | 11:21 |
| bpepple | ah. | 11:21 |
| quaid | bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally | 11:21 |
| quaid | at the same time regardless of region | 11:21 |
| quaid | "Fedora time" | 11:21 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :) | 11:21 |
| * quaid does his MC Hammer imitation | 11:22 | |
| bpepple | quaid: yeah, seems reasonable. | 11:22 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does? | 11:22 |
| jjmcd | Pick a county in Indiana | 11:22 |
| ke4qqq | dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol | 11:22 |
| bpepple | dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo. | 11:22 |
| quaid | dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea | 11:22 |
| -!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] | 11:22 | |
| quaid | so i don't know how far off all those countries are | 11:22 |
| quaid | hence, a decree and such | 11:23 |
| * quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now | 11:23 | |
| quaid | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting | 11:23 |
| * ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change | 11:23 | |
| quaid | yet the reasons | 11:23 |
| quaid | people pick meeting times | 11:23 |
| jjmcd | ke4qqq: exactly | 11:23 |
| quaid | are based on local time events | 11:23 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month... | 11:23 |
| quaid | that move with DST | 11:23 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all | 11:24 |
| stickster | Right, humans move in local time. | 11:24 |
| jjmcd | quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time | 11:24 |
| dwmw2_yoyo | whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others. | 11:24 |
| -!- j-rod [n=j-rod@static-72-93-233-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"] | 11:24 | |
| quaid | shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci? | 11:25 |
| * stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing | 11:25 | |
| dwmw2_yoyo | yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting? | 11:25 |
| ke4qqq | regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide | 11:25 |
| quaid | stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks | 11:25 |
| stickster | look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup. | 11:26 |
| quaid | ok, shall we move on? | 11:26 |
| stickster | +1 | 11:26 |
| laubersm | +1 | 11:26 |
| * quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ... | 11:26 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle | 11:26 | |
| quaid | I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :) | 11:27 |
| quaid | http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html | 11:27 |
| quaid | so there are some points there and some I contend | 11:28 |
| -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz@209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:28 | |
| knurd | quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-) | 11:29 |
| fozzmoo | Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around. | 11:29 |
| stickster | I think the "condensed version" has some merit | 11:29 |
| knurd | turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan | 11:29 |
| quaid | understood | 11:29 |
| stickster | But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen | 11:29 |
| * ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. | 11:29 | |
| quaid | oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part | 11:29 |
| stickster | That should be easy to do | 11:30 |
| quaid | in that, without hands, it's an idea | 11:30 |
| quaid | while others are doable | 11:30 |
| jjmcd | There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert | 11:30 |
| quaid | yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc. | 11:30 |
| quaid | jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat | 11:30 |
| quaid | so there was general interest up front | 11:30 |
| quaid | and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level | 11:30 |
| stickster | We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release | 11:30 |
| stickster | And stick to that script for the release | 11:31 |
| quaid | which ideas? | 11:31 |
| -!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs@pppoe2-ves.broadcom.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 11:31 | |
| stickster | single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc. | 11:31 |
| stickster | That way they don't get lost in the shuffle | 11:31 |
| stickster | We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP. | 11:31 |
| quaid | right | 11:32 |
| * quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures | 11:33 | |
| quaid | yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me | 11:33 |
| quaid | too much process stuck in the heads of too few. | 11:33 |
| quaid | not by intention, of course :) | 11:33 |
| stickster | quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time | 11:33 |
| * quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need} | 11:33 | |
| quaid | sure | 11:34 |
| * stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-) | 11:35 | |
| quaid | yeah, but also ... leaving room | 11:35 |
| jjmcd | I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too | 11:35 |
| stickster | Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability | 11:36 |
| quaid | exactly | 11:36 |
| stickster | It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down. | 11:36 |
| quaid | training during quiet times | 11:36 |
| quaid | word! | 11:36 |
| quaid | or, you know, die scaling it | 11:36 |
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| ke4qqq | are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon?? | 11:37 |
| -!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui@cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 11:37 | |
| ke4qqq | or is that too short a timeframe | 11:37 |
| quaid | yes, no | 11:37 |
| quaid | Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs | 11:38 |
| * quaid pulling from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table | 11:38 | |
| stickster | Hm, we'll need to update these dates | 11:40 |
| -!- hno [n=hno@pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting [] | 11:41 | |
| -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk | 11:41 | |
| stickster | *chirp chirp | 11:41 |
| stickster | I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this | 11:42 |
| stickster | I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10 | 11:42 |
| * jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity | 11:43 | |
| stickster | It pays better than being a rock star so far | 11:44 |
| jjmcd | ;-) | 11:44 |
| stickster | But I was never that big a rock star :-D | 11:44 |
| stickster | Did quaid leave us? | 11:45 |
| -!- jtibu [n=jtibu@uniaraxa.edu.br] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:45 | |
| quaid | srry | 11:45 |
| quaid | wrong channel? | 11:45 |
| stickster | We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate | 11:46 |
| stickster | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom | 11:46 |
| quaid | stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel | 11:47 |
| -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away | 11:47 | |
| quaid | :) | 11:47 |
| stickster | I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D | 11:47 |
| quaid | no, I thought that was on topic | 11:47 |
| stickster | Anyhoo... | 11:47 |
| quaid | it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh | 11:48 |
| stickster | OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas. | 11:48 |
| quaid | ok, what else did we learn this release | 11:48 |
| stickster | more on my topic later in #fedora-docs. | 11:48 |
| quaid | yeah, I'll add a task | 11:48 |
| stickster | We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM | 11:49 |
| quaid | updates after the release, right? | 11:49 |
| stickster | right | 11:49 |
| stickster | We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days. | 11:49 |
| stickster | Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./ | 11:50 |
| quaid | ok | 11:50 |
| quaid | let's see ... anything else come to mind today? | 11:51 |
| quaid | I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document | 11:51 |
| quaid | s/pour/bleed/ | 11:52 |
| jjmcd | I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news | 11:52 |
| * stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors. | 11:52 | |
| quaid | stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat | 11:53 |
| -!- J5 [n=quintice@c-76-24-17-105.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:53 | |
| * jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming | 11:53 | |
| quaid | just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive | 11:53 |
| quaid | s/place/method/ | 11:53 |
| stickster | quaid: I'm missing what you're saying. | 11:54 |
| stickster | Probably the decongestants. | 11:54 |
| quaid | stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong | 11:54 |
| quaid | stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming | 11:54 |
| quaid | that I've been pointing to Archive: | 11:54 |
| stickster | A LOT of cruft. | 11:54 |
| quaid | yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic) | 11:55 |
| stickster | Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc.... | 11:55 |
| quaid | yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document | 11:55 |
| ke4qqq | it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner | 11:55 |
| quaid | and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team | 11:55 |
| ke4qqq | who is responsible for keeping a page up to date | 11:55 |
| quaid | ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]] | 11:56 |
| quaid | easy way to steward and not lose track | 11:56 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: sure then | 11:56 |
| quaid | we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories | 11:56 |
| ke4qqq | and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon | 11:57 |
| quaid | jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you? | 11:57 |
| -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:57 | |
| * Sparks likes the "unowned" cat | 11:57 | |
| jjmcd | I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work | 11:57 |
| jjmcd | But I'm waiting to see | 11:58 |
| stickster | We have a
 This page needs some love
This page should be revised or reconstructed to be more helpful. Problems may include being out of step with current team or project status or process. |
11:58 |
| stickster | Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO | 11:58 |
| quaid | jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links | 11:58 |
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| quaid | jjmcd: and setup page forwards | 11:58 |
| stickster | Yes, it does. | 11:58 |
| jjmcd | You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for | 11:59 |
| quaid | jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy | 12:00 |
| quaid | and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard | 12:00 |
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| jjmcd | Certainly it is far from perfect | 12:00 |
| quaid | so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that | 12:00 |
| quaid | also, categorization is *key* | 12:01 |
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| quaid | each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat | 12:01 |
| jjmcd | If we're liberal with categories that could help | 12:01 |
| jjmcd | Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting. | 12:01 |
| quaid | jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically | 12:02 |
| quaid | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation | 12:02 |
| stickster | Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques | 12:02 |
| stickster | "You must know our standard!" | 12:02 |
| quaid | you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page | 12:02 |
| quaid | jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon | 12:02 |
| quaid | ok, we are over the line | 12:03 |
| quaid | timewise | 12:03 |
| stickster | heh, almost jinx | 12:03 |
| * fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors | 12:03 | |
| jjmcd | Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving | 12:03 |
| quaid | fugolini: we were going to move over ... | 12:03 |
| fugolini | ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time | 12:04 |
| fugolini | it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call | 12:04 |
| fugolini | call roll, I don't know which is the right form | 12:04 |
| quaid | well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion | 12:04 |
| quaid | you call the roll to get the roll call | 12:04 |
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| quaid | </meeting> | 12:05 |
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