QA/Meetings/20090831

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Contents

Attendees

People Present (lines said):

  • James Laska - jlaska (169)
  • Will Woods - wwoods (59)
  • Adam Williamson - adamw (45)
  • David Pravec - dpravec (31)
  • Kamil Paral - kparal (20)
  • Jesse Keating - Oxf13 (20)
  • fenris02 (16)
  • Sebastian Dziallas - sdziallas (14)
  • Iarly Selbir - iarlyy (13)
  • Petr Šplíchal - psss (13)
  • Edware Kirk - tk009 (6)
  • Kevin Fenzi - nirik (5)
  • Mike McGrath - mmcgrath (1)
  • Southern_Gentlem (1)

Regrets:

  • Liam Li (lili)
  • He Rui (rhe)


Agenda

Previous meeting follow-up

  • [dpravec] - investigate creating fedora-test-announce mailing list for Test Days, other test events, schedule updates

mailing list test-announce is ready to be used. Adamw asked if fedora-test-list was subscribed to test-announce.

  • [jlaska] - talk with Liam about how we can make the current install test plan more attainable/achievable in the given time frames

Haven't brainstormed with Liam yet on changes for the installation test plan for F-12-Beta. Keep this action item on the list, will try to organize my thoughts and sync up with Liam.

  • [jlaska] - cleanup remaining test cases for dracut and send announcement

See announcement at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-August/msg00659.html

  • [jlaska] - discuss bandwith implications of hosting nightly rawhide live images with fedora-infrastructure

spoke to mmcgrath on the fedora-admin briefly a little bit ago on the alt.fp.org bandwith. the summary is that there haven't been any issues reported yet, and he'd like to be kept in the loop when new milestone drops land. Mmcgrath did note that they're interested in building a mirror to host content should any issues surface on that one system.

Adamw asked if any download numbers were available for nightly builds?

  • [Oxf13] - will do a build of the new autotest version for testing.

Packages posted and awaiting test feedback (see https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ticket/9#comment:38)

  • [jlaska + wwoods] to test latest autotest build

Intend to gather results early this week. Spent time last week documenting install and setup instructions on wiki (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Install_and_configure_autotest).

  • UNASSIGNED - include a xorg-x11-drv matrix in F-12-Beta test matrix for nouveau, intel and radeon

AutoQA update from wwoods

Wwoods notifed the group that last week was official known as DOCS WEEK. For example, see the autoqa wiki category http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:AutoQA

The important AutoQA lesson of the meeting was ...

<wwoods> write the test(s) first

With a written test, you can later worry about

  1. Deciding when the test should run
  2. Integrating the existing test + trigger/watch into autoqa

Psss joined the meeting to get some guidance on how to get started with a fedora package sanity implementation that would use autoqa. The original idea came from Ondrej Hudlicky: to prevent dependency problems. While looking around, Psss came across the autoqa project. Psss asked for guidance on how to get started. Wwoods reiterated the AutoQA lesson of the day ...

<wwoods> write the test(s) first

Jlaska noted that kparal and psss might have an opportunity for collaboration when the time is right for creating a watcher script. Wwoods commented that it's much easier to write watchers once you have a working test(s). Once you have the test, you'll know what parameters and environmental needs your test has. For example wwoods noted:

obviously a post-koji-build watcher is going to need.. a URL to the new
package(s).  But there might be other things you haven't thought of yet.  So
try writing the tests and then you'll have some concrete examples of what the
tests need to know and hopefully
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Writing_AutoQA_Tests is a bit clearer now about
the fact that you don't need any special knowledge or code from
autoqa/autotest.

Dpravec asked for the location for the updated autotest packages. Jkeating pointed to http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/infra/

Wwoods indicated the plans for the upcoming week ...

  1. figuring out how to get data back out of the autotest frontend/RPC code so we can populate forms for israwhidebroken.com or similar things
  2. minor cleanup of std{out,err} of existing RATS test results

Test Day updates

dracut

Dracut test day wiki - Test_Day:2009-08-27

Last week was the dracut test day. Jlaska has an open action item to send the test day summary to the list.

sectool

Sectool test day wiki - Test_Day:2009-09-01_Sectool

Eduard Beneš and Ondrej Hudlicky will host the sectool test day on Tuesday, Sept 1, 2009.

Fenris02 asked ...

  • whether should it suggest pam_tally2 instead of _tally?
  • should a default install pass level 5 ?

Adamw noted the test day wiki had some gaps and would reply to the list with feedback.

Sugar-on-a-stick

SoaS test day wiki - Test_Day:2009-09-03

Sebastian noted he was working with Mel Chua and test cases should arriveon the semantic infrastructure wiki on Wednesday

Jlaska expressed excitement on using the semantic mediawiki for Soas, and asked whether specific hardware was needed to test. Sdziallas noted that any system that can run Fedora should be capable of running SoaS.

Xorg-x11-drv week

Xorg-x11-drv-* test day wiki:

  • Radeon - coming soon
  • Nouveau - coming soon
  • Intel - coming soon

Adamw noted that wiki pages haven't yet been pulled together, however progress would happen soon. The test day events will be similar to the f11 days - just general testing of the drivers' capabilities, find out where we're at, particularly with newer stuff like nouveau modesetting

Open discussion

kparal - Using zsync to improve ISO downloads

http://zsync.moria.org.uk/

Kparal asked whether zsync could be used to improve downloads of large files (ISO's) of fedora. Discussion followed, and the group seemed to think that the benefits would be minimal for live image ISO's ... since they are just a single squashfs file.

Wwoods suggested it would be good to confirm that theory. Kparal would try to test downloads against live images ... and report back.

dpravec - New test-announce list

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test-announce

Dpravec reminded folks to sign up for test-announce mailing list. A low traffic moderated list intended for notification about QA related test events. Fedora-test-list is currently a member, so any events will be sent to fedora-test-list@redhat.com as well.

fenris02 - Features/LowerProcessCapabilities

Fenris02 asked for status on the F12 Feature Features/LowerProcessCapabilities.

Fenris noted it hasn't changed recently and isn't complete in F12 Alpha. The group agreed that any features passed the feature freeze needs to be planned for Fedora 13. Adamw thought there was some plan on implementing a subset in F12, and the remaining features in F13.

Fenris02 volunteed to check-in with sgrubb for thoughts on next steps.

<your topic here>

Upcoming QA events

Action items

  • adamw - to reply to sectool test day with some test day wiki improvements
  • dpravec will subscribe fedora-test-list to test-announce
  • fenris02 - check-in w/ sgrubb on devel status of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LowerProcessCapabilities
  • jlaska - catch up with lili on some test plan changes for the upcoming F-12-Beta milestones
  • jlaska - complete autotest setup doc and post autotest-0.11 test feedback
  • jlaska - send dracut test day summary to fedora-test-list
  • kparal to test download zsync downloads
  • UNASSIGNED - include a xorg-x11-drv matrix in F-12-Beta test matrix for nouveau, intel and radeon

IRC transcript

jlaska | #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting Aug 31 12:00
zodbot | Meeting started Mon Aug 31 16:00:07 2009 UTC. The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. Aug 31 12:00
zodbot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. Aug 31 12:00
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:00
jlaska | #topic gathering in lobby Aug 31 12:00
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: gathering in lobby (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:00
* | kparal is present Aug 31 12:00
jlaska | Hey folks ... let's do a quick show of hands Aug 31 12:00
kparal | dpravec is just making coffee/tea, otherwise present Aug 31 12:01
* | nirik is hanging out in the back. Aug 31 12:01
adamw | mornin Aug 31 12:01
* | fenris02 is waiting for the tea to be finished Aug 31 12:01
jlaska | kparal: nirik and dpravec_caffeine ... hello Aug 31 12:01
jlaska | adamw: fenris02: good mornin' Aug 31 12:02
* | psss is here, hi! Aug 31 12:02
jlaska | psss: hey there Aug 31 12:03
dpravec | jlaska: psss will be here only 30 minutes Aug 31 12:03
jlaska | dpravec: okay ... we've got autoqa lined up early in the agenda Aug 31 12:03
* | Oxf13 Aug 31 12:03
jlaska | Oxf13: hey hey Aug 31 12:03
jlaska | is there a wwoods lurking in the shadows? Aug 31 12:03
* | wwoods is batman Aug 31 12:04
jlaska | LOL! Aug 31 12:04
jlaska | alrighty ... let's doo eeeet Aug 31 12:04
jlaska | #topic previous meeting follow-up Aug 31 12:04
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: previous meeting follow-up (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:04
jlaska | dpravec: I've got you up first ... how goes it with test-announce? Aug 31 12:05
jlaska | # [dpravec] - investigate creating fedora-test-announce mailing list for Test Days, other test events, schedule updates Aug 31 12:05
dpravec | ah, i almost forgot. but mailing list test-announce is ready to be used Aug 31 12:05
adamw | yay Aug 31 12:06
adamw | who's set as a moderator? Aug 31 12:06
dpravec | its moderated list with low traffic - so people will get info about testing without getting much spam Aug 31 12:06
dpravec | adamw: if i am not mistaken, you are Aug 31 12:06
jlaska | alright, I'll ask sdziallas to be our test candidate this week for sugar on a stick announcement Aug 31 12:06
jlaska | I forget, mailman uses a single admin passwd? Aug 31 12:07
adamw | is fedora-test-list subscribed to the announce list, as suggested last week? Aug 31 12:07
dpravec | adamw: hmm not yet, but i will try to fix this today/tomorrow Aug 31 12:07
dpravec | hmm i dont know how :) Aug 31 12:08
dpravec | ha, just subscribe it ;) heh Aug 31 12:08
dpravec | ok, will do Aug 31 12:08
Oxf13 | yes, you can just subscribe it from the admin pages Aug 31 12:08
jlaska | dpravec: can you add me as a moderator as well? Aug 31 12:09
* | tk009 arrives late Aug 31 12:09
dpravec | yes, i already did Aug 31 12:09
adamw | hi iarlyy, tk009 Aug 31 12:09
jlaska | dpravec: thanks ... I think that gets us decent TZ coverage Aug 31 12:09
* | iarlyy arrives late tool x) Aug 31 12:09
iarlyy | s/too Aug 31 12:09
jlaska | howdy iarlyy and tk009 :) Aug 31 12:09
tk009 | =) J & A Aug 31 12:10
tk009 | & I Aug 31 12:10
iarlyy | hey adamw jlaska Aug 31 12:10
jlaska | alrighty, I've got a few action items .. wil walk through quick ... Aug 31 12:10
jlaska | # [jlaska] - talk with Liam about how we can make the current install test plan more attainable/achievable in the given time frames Aug 31 12:10
jlaska | I didn't have a chance to catch up with Liam on this last week ... but will follow-up on this probably tonight Aug 31 12:10
jlaska | so I'll keep this on for next week ... and see if maybe Liam has any points he wants to address for the minutes as well Aug 31 12:11
jlaska | next ... Aug 31 12:11
* | jlaska just speeding through ... so shout for a stop Aug 31 12:11
jlaska | # [jlaska] - cleanup remaining test cases for dracut and send announcement Aug 31 12:11
dpravec | so, iam adding fedora-test-list@redhat.com to members, ok? Aug 31 12:11
jlaska | #action dpravec will subscribe fedora-test-list to test-announce Aug 31 12:12
jlaska | dpravec: I think that's how it works Aug 31 12:12
jlaska | #action jlaska - catch up with lili on some test plan changes for the upcoming F-12-Beta milestones Aug 31 12:12
dpravec | .. done Aug 31 12:13
jlaska | dracut test cases were in good shape ... with help from atodorov and jstodola Aug 31 12:13
jlaska | there is one missing still for root=udev-path ... but I need to test that first Aug 31 12:13
jlaska | next item ... Aug 31 12:14
jlaska | # [jlaska] - discuss bandwith implications of hosting nightly rawhide live images with fedora-infrastructure Aug 31 12:14
dpravec | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test-announce <-- maillist page Aug 31 12:14
jlaska | dpravec: thanks! Aug 31 12:14
jlaska | Oxf13, nirik: I spoke to mmcgrath on the fedora-admin briefly a little bit ago on the alt.fp.org bandwith Aug 31 12:15
Oxf13 | ok Aug 31 12:15
iarlyy | we had problems with live images for f11 Aug 31 12:15
iarlyy | ? Aug 31 12:15
jlaska | the summary is that there haven't been any issues reported yet, and he'd like to be kept in the loop when new milestone drops land Aug 31 12:16
tk009 | no nightly rawhide iarlyy Aug 31 12:16
* | nirik is happy to adjust/change/whatever the live composes. Just let me know. Aug 31 12:16
adamw | did he have any numbers on how many downloads we've been getting on the nightly builds so far? Aug 31 12:16
jlaska | iarlyy: yeah, this is for hosting live images Aug 31 12:16
jlaska | adamw: I didn't ask, but I Think those would be reasonable to gather ... I can follow-up Aug 31 12:16
tk009 | I've been using them and been happy Aug 31 12:17
nirik | I note that rawhide has been busted with broken deps for a bit now, so there have been no new images recently. Aug 31 12:17
jlaska | mmcgrath did note that they're interested in building a mirror to host content should any issues surface on that one system Aug 31 12:17
jlaska | nirik: yeah :( Aug 31 12:17
kparal | i have discussed with nirik the possibility for using zsync tool (http://zsync.moria.org.uk/) for downloading images. it is similar to rsync, but works on plain http. it saves time and bandwidth for users and servers. unfortunatelly zsync is not packaged yet for fedora, so the conclusion is it is not relevant yet Aug 31 12:17
* | mmcgrath actually just kickstarted said machine. It'll be ready by the next time you guys do this. Aug 31 12:17
jlaska | go mmcgrath! Aug 31 12:17
adamw | nirik: yeah, stuck in the middle of an openssl rebuild i think. Aug 31 12:17
Oxf13 | kparal: for live images, rsync is actually the wrong thing to use Aug 31 12:17
nirik | kparal: we can't use it until it is. ;) There is also deltaiso's... and also any of this stuff needs multiple images around to delta, which means more disk space. Aug 31 12:18
Oxf13 | kparal: it will make things far slower than just using plain http to download the entire file. Aug 31 12:18
adamw | i did get a finished update with --skip-broken today, but lots of packages were skipped. and i'm not sure it's going to work if i reboot =) Aug 31 12:18
Oxf13 | deltas also aren't very useful I would think with live images Aug 31 12:18
kparal | Oxf13: ubuntu uses zsync for live images and it is great, you download only the differencies Aug 31 12:18
nirik | adamw: most things should be fixed today... just NM and a few others. Aug 31 12:18
Oxf13 | kparal: Ubuntu's live images aren't like ours Aug 31 12:18
* | iarlyy agrees with Oxf13 Aug 31 12:19
jlaska | kparal: should we hold on zsync until the open discussion? Aug 31 12:19
kparal | Oxf13: for example brno branch have so slow line sometimes, that i really doubt it could be any slower :) Aug 31 12:19
kparal | ok Aug 31 12:19
* | jlaska would like to dive into autoqa while psss is still around Aug 31 12:19
jlaska | kparal: if I forget, please throw something at me when we get to open discussion :) Aug 31 12:20
kparal | jlaska: sure, go ahead Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | kparal: okay, thanks Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | # [Oxf13] - will do a build of the new autotest version for testing. Aug 31 12:20
Oxf13 | That was done Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | we've got a big DONE there ... thanks Oxf13! Aug 31 12:20
Oxf13 | np Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | and the follow-on to that point ... Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | # [jlaska + wwoods] to test latest autotest build Aug 31 12:20
jlaska | still in progress on my end ... I'm using this opportunity to help document ... Aug 31 12:21
dpravec | i would love to install it too. i am having virtual machine ready Aug 31 12:21
jlaska | #action jlaska - complete autotest setup doc and post autotest-0.11 test feedback Aug 31 12:21
iarlyy | autotest? sorry what's? Aug 31 12:22
wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Autotest Aug 31 12:22
jlaska | I've got one more unassigned action item ... but will raise this at the end of the meeting Aug 31 12:22
adamw | iarlyy: have you not been reading FWN religiously? i am disappointed :) Aug 31 12:22
iarlyy | adamw, lately nops ;( Aug 31 12:23
jlaska | wwoods, cased on iarlyy's question ... sounds like a good opportunity for you to take it a way Aug 31 12:23
jlaska | #topic AutoQA update from wwoods Aug 31 12:23
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: AutoQA update from wwoods (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:23
wwoods | last week was DOCS WEEK woo Aug 31 12:23
wwoods | see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:AutoQA Aug 31 12:23
* | jlaska puts his hands in the air Aug 31 12:23
wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AutoQA is the main page for the Fedora AutoQA project Aug 31 12:24
wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Autotest has specific info about autotest and how we use it in AutoQA Aug 31 12:24
wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Writing_AutoQA_Hooks and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Writing_AutoQA_Tests explain how to write autoqa hooks and tests Aug 31 12:24
wwoods | but really, to write tests and hooks, you don't need to know anything about autoqa or autotest specifically Aug 31 12:25
wwoods | first you need a working test, or some working code to monitor for an event Aug 31 12:25
wwoods | then you write some wrapper code to make it work in AutoQA Aug 31 12:25
* | adamw waves it like he just don't care Aug 31 12:25
jlaska | ;) Aug 31 12:25
jlaska | wwoods: those are killer docs Aug 31 12:25
adamw | if anyone's wondering why i'm waving jlaska's hand, congratulations, you're more awake than me Aug 31 12:25
wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Install_and_configure_autotest talks a bit about setting up your own autotest instance if you wanted to run the autoqa code on your own Aug 31 12:26
kparal | wwoods: i'm just trying to modify autoqa to work even if you have only autotest-client, not server. i can be easier for hooks/tests developers (like me:)) Aug 31 12:26
* | iarlyy many pages to ready... Love it! oww! Aug 31 12:26
jlaska | wwoods: I'll chat with you after the meeting, but anxious for your input on how to make that page (Install_and_configure_autotest) less painful to read Aug 31 12:26
wwoods | kparal: okay, but like I said - you don't need to know anything about autoqa to write tests Aug 31 12:26
wwoods | write the test first Aug 31 12:26
wwoods | then worry about autoqa wrapper code Aug 31 12:26
wwoods | same for hooks - write the watcher first Aug 31 12:27
* | iarlyy typo s/read/ Aug 31 12:27
Southern_Ge | wwoods, i will be interested in this in the future as well for the re-spins Aug 31 12:27
kparal | wwoods: ok, that should be in bold text in some page :) Aug 31 12:27
wwoods | let me say that once more: you don't need autoqa or autotest to write tests. Aug 31 12:27
wwoods | at all. Aug 31 12:27
wwoods | I'll put some italics on "You should have a working test before you even start thinking about AutoQA." Aug 31 12:28
jlaska | kparal: that's probably my fault for suggesting looking at the code :( Aug 31 12:28
kparal | :) good Aug 31 12:28
dpravec | wwoods: psss is writing some sanity tests for rpm packages. we should talk about it later when we will have time Aug 31 12:28
kparal | jlaska: no problem, i liked to study it Aug 31 12:29
adamw | wwoods: i think you should make it flash. and have a kitten on it. Aug 31 12:30
psss | hi, guys! just wanted to make clear the status of fedora test-package-sanity project Aug 31 12:30
jlaska | psss: welcome Aug 31 12:31
dpravec | psss: ? Aug 31 12:31
psss | the original idea came from ondrej hudlicky: to prevent dependency problems... Aug 31 12:31
psss | we've just started looking around... and came across the autoqa project... Aug 31 12:32
dpravec | wwoods: so they do not need to care about autoqa much, they should just code tests? Aug 31 12:32
Oxf13 | yes Aug 31 12:32
dpravec | ... which will be later easy to integrate Aug 31 12:33
wwoods | yes. Aug 31 12:33
psss | now, what/how can we help with? Aug 31 12:33
jlaska | psss: I suspect (wwoods can correct me if I get this wrong) that some of the support you'd need to initiate your tests would involve what kparal is looking at as well Aug 31 12:33
jlaska | with tests in hand, perhaps you guys might sync up on ideas for a watcher to initiate them? Aug 31 12:34
kparal | we can probably collaborate on creating the watcher for the packages Aug 31 12:34
jlaska | wwoods: we have two watchers now right? Aug 31 12:35
wwoods | right Aug 31 12:36
wwoods | it's a lot easier to write watchers once you have some tests in mind Aug 31 12:36
wwoods | because then you know what info the tests will need Aug 31 12:36
kparal | alright, therefore first goes the tests Aug 31 12:36
wwoods | obviously a post-koji-build watcher is going to need.. a URL to the new package(s) Aug 31 12:36
wwoods | but there might be other things you haven't thought of yet Aug 31 12:36
wwoods | so try writing the tests and then you'll have some concrete examples of what the tests need to know Aug 31 12:37
wwoods | and hopefully https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Writing_AutoQA_Tests is a bit clearer now about the fact that you don't need any special knowledge or code from autoqa/autotest Aug 31 12:38
jlaska | kparal: I guess that ties into what you discussed earlier today ... about what conditions should rpmlint's rpmdiff test trigger a failure Aug 31 12:38
Oxf13 | post-koji-build may depend on our message bus Aug 31 12:38
Oxf13 | or some ugly email + postfix games Aug 31 12:39
Oxf13 | but yes, come up with the tests first, we'll worry about how to trigger them after that Aug 31 12:39
wwoods | Oxf13: the interface between the watcher and autoqa being well-defined, we can write an ugly one as a proof-of-concept Aug 31 12:39
wwoods | until such time as we have the message bus Aug 31 12:39
wwoods | and we can replace the watcher without affecting autoqa/the tests Aug 31 12:39
jlaska | psss: do you have enough information to get started on your end? Aug 31 12:40
jlaska | psss: or at least enough docs to discern what the starting point should be? Aug 31 12:40
kparal | psss: if not, we can consult it tomorrow, just contact me :) Aug 31 12:41
psss | perhaps a question: when writing tests, we use BeakerLib Aug 31 12:41
psss | is the autotest framework be used in a similar way inside the tests? Aug 31 12:42
wwoods | not inside the test code itself Aug 31 12:42
wwoods | but the control file and test object are wrappers used by autotest to launch your test code Aug 31 12:42
psss | well, yes, but the test needs to log Aug 31 12:43
wwoods | autotest takes care of saving logs, test results, and other data Aug 31 12:43
--- | mchua is now known as mchua_food Aug 31 12:43
wwoods | for example it defines a 'resultsdir' attribute that is the directory you should write logs to Aug 31 12:44
jlaska | does this fall into setup/precondition for the test itself ... does the test need to make sure the correct packages are available that it needs? Aug 31 12:44
jlaska | like ... 'is beaker-list installed?' Aug 31 12:44
wwoods | so for some tests we do "--logdir %s" % resultsdir Aug 31 12:44
jlaska | s/beaker-list/beaker-lib/ Aug 31 12:44
wwoods | or the wrapper can just move the logs from wherever they're written to resultsdir after the test finishes Aug 31 12:45
jlaska | Shall we wrap-up on the autoqa update for today? Aug 31 12:47
wwoods | beaker-lib does some weird mixing of harness code and convenience code for testing Aug 31 12:47
jlaska | oops sorry, keep going wwoods Aug 31 12:47
dpravec | Oxf13: where are those new packages? Aug 31 12:47
wwoods | if you're using beaker-lib for convenience in writing your test, that's your decision Aug 31 12:47
Oxf13 | jkeating.fedorapeople.org/infra/ Aug 31 12:47
dpravec | ty Aug 31 12:47
wwoods | and you can install beaker-lib in setup(), or package it with the test Aug 31 12:47
wwoods | it doesn't matter, we can make it work, it's not that hard, just get the test working and worry about integration later Aug 31 12:48
psss | just wanted to make sure, we're not duplicating with beakerlib something which is integrated in autotest already... Aug 31 12:48
jlaska | sounds like the quote for the week ... "get the test working, and worry about integration later" Aug 31 12:48
wwoods | anyway, yeah. this week in autoqa: figuring out how to get data back out of the autotest frontend/RPC code so we can populate forms for israwhidebroken.com or similar things Aug 31 12:49
wwoods | https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/milestone/israwhidebroken.com Aug 31 12:49
wwoods | that's the roadmap Aug 31 12:49
iarlyy | chromium can't open url above, ff is ok lol Aug 31 12:49
--- | stickster is now known as stickster_afk Aug 31 12:50
wwoods | good thing chromium isn't in Fedora then Aug 31 12:50
wwoods | sounds pretty buggy Aug 31 12:50
jlaska | wwoods: great, I hope to clean up that install guide a bit so that it meets the wwoods doc standard Aug 31 12:50
wwoods | heh Aug 31 12:50
Oxf13 | iarlyy: my chromium can load it Aug 31 12:51
psss | ok, guys, will have to go... to sum up for myself: "get the test working" ;-) Aug 31 12:51
wwoods | I'll give it a read and make additions and/or send you notes Aug 31 12:51
jlaska | psss: thanks for joining today! Aug 31 12:51
psss | i will contant kparal for details about our possible cooperation... Aug 31 12:51
iarlyy | a yum repo will be good Aug 31 12:51
iarlyy | easy to install/update Aug 31 12:51
dpravec | when kamil will not be here,, you can talk to me Aug 31 12:51
jlaska | iarlyy: definitely, that's the plan once we get Oxf13 some test feedback on these updated packges Aug 31 12:52
psss | jlaska: my pleasure :) Aug 31 12:52
psss | ok, bye, guys! Aug 31 12:52
dpravec | bye, psss Aug 31 12:52
jlaska | okay ... that's a good update on autoqa ... let's move on to some QA events this week Aug 31 12:52
jlaska | #topic Test Day Updates - Dracut Aug 31 12:52
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Test Day Updates - Dracut (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:52
Oxf13 | breakfast horizon is approaching for me. Aug 31 12:53
jlaska | thanks everyone for attending and contributing test results and/or bugs Aug 31 12:53
jlaska | I've got a draft test summary in the pipe and will send that to the list this afternoon Aug 31 12:53
jlaska | we still need feedback on bare metal (real hardware / non-kvm) ... so the existing test cases are available for any/all to contribute Aug 31 12:54
jlaska | #action jlaska - send dracut test day summary to fedora-test-list Aug 31 12:54
jlaska | any questions/comments on the dracut test day before we move on? Aug 31 12:54
jlaska | alrighty ... next up Aug 31 12:55
jlaska | #topic Test Day Updates - sectool Aug 31 12:55
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Test Day Updates - sectool (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 12:55
jlaska | Eduard Beneš has organized a test day tomorrow for sectool Aug 31 12:55
fenris02 | should it suggest pam_tally2 instead of _tally? should a default install pass level 5 ? Aug 31 12:56
jlaska | note, this is a QA sponsored test day ... but thanks to mclasen for loaning the fit'n'finish slot Aug 31 12:56
jlaska | #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-09-01_Sectool Aug 31 12:56
adamw | ooh. i didn't know it was a qa test day. it looked odd for fnf :) Aug 31 12:56
jlaska | fenris02: is this for the sectool day? Aug 31 12:56
jlaska | adamw: mclasen has been kind to loan some of his open slots Aug 31 12:56
fenris02 | jlaska, for sectool- i can ask on testday too of course Aug 31 12:56
jlaska | fenris02: Hmm, sorry ... I think you are more up to speed on that that me Aug 31 12:57
adamw | wiki page could do with an explanation of what sectool is, and possibly links to packages for F11? Aug 31 12:57
fenris02 | sectool is in f10 too Aug 31 12:58
jlaska | adamw: good points Aug 31 12:58
jlaska | and a link to a live image to test with Aug 31 12:58
adamw | do we know what version XYZ is? Aug 31 12:58
jlaska | doh! Aug 31 12:58
jlaska | let's follow-up to Eduard's fedora-test-list announcement for the event Aug 31 12:59
jlaska | adamw: you mind following-up on the list with that? Aug 31 13:00
adamw | just to ask questions and get the info filled in? sure Aug 31 13:01
jlaska | #action adamw - to reply to sectool test day with some test day wiki improvements Aug 31 13:01
jlaska | adamw: thanks! Aug 31 13:01
jlaska | fenris02: feel free to do the same for _tally vs tally2 ... or you can join in if yo uhave time tomorrow Aug 31 13:02
jlaska | #topic Test Day Updates - sugar on a stick Aug 31 13:02
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Test Day Updates - sugar on a stick (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 13:02
jlaska | #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-09-03 Aug 31 13:02
* | sdziallas waves, is about to update that page Aug 31 13:02
jlaska | this Thursday's will feature Sugar on a stick testing Aug 31 13:02
jlaska | sdziallas: I've got an email response to you inprogress Aug 31 13:02
sdziallas | jlaska: I just talked to Mel, we'll put the test cases (I have them almost ready) in the semantic infra on Wednesday Aug 31 13:02
sdziallas | jlaska: cool! Aug 31 13:02
adamw | awesome Aug 31 13:03
jlaska | sdziallas: oh very nice ... I'm anxious to see how that works out Aug 31 13:03
jlaska | sdziallas: this is still using https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki right? Aug 31 13:03
sdziallas | jlaska: I've been asking for volunteers from the Sugar-side to join us, but haven't heard anything back... but I'll try to get us some more folks Aug 31 13:03
sdziallas | jlaska: yeah, me too... curious to test it. yup, that's what I've been directed to. Aug 31 13:03
jlaska | sdziallas: do you need any special hardware for this ... or can anyone switch to the sugar desktop (or boot live sugar image) to test? Aug 31 13:03
adamw | jlaska: i believe the point is booting from the live image, that's what the project is about :) Aug 31 13:04
sdziallas | jlaska: well, basically anybody could yum groupinstall sugar-desktop. but Sugar on a Stick is more about booting an .iso from a USB key (or in a virtual machine) Aug 31 13:04
jlaska | adamw: heh, sorry ... yeah ;) Aug 31 13:04
sdziallas | adamw: yeah, right... if somebody has no other chance than yum groupinstalling, this might already help, too, though. Aug 31 13:04
sdziallas | (since we're basically using the packages from Fedora for that, so if there's a bug there, it's likely that we've it in SoaS, too) Aug 31 13:05
* | jlaska sternly looks at USB key on desk Aug 31 13:05
tk009 | is a 4g usb key big enough to test? Aug 31 13:05
adamw | the hardware question stands, though - is it expected to run on any hardware? Aug 31 13:05
sdziallas | tk009: yup! even 2g should be enough... Aug 31 13:05
adamw | (or any hardware that runs fedora, at least) Aug 31 13:05
sdziallas | adamw: yeah. for any strange configurations, we decided to follow a "no-hacks"-policy, so we should be able to run SoaS on the same hardware than Fedora runs on. Aug 31 13:06
sdziallas | adamw: so the same points: the more RAM, the better. hard disk not necessarily required (unless you want to test the rebootless installer, which might eat babies, though). Aug 31 13:07
sdziallas | well, in case a machine isn't able to boot from USB, one would need a boot helper .iso, which just booted the USB key then... (I'll push such an image to the Sugar Labs servers today) Aug 31 13:08
jlaska | sdziallas: I'll follow-up after the meeting on that email Aug 31 13:09
sdziallas | jlaska: sure, cool :) Aug 31 13:09
jlaska | sdziallas: but feel free to find adamw or myself on #fedora-qa if there are any other issues that come up Aug 31 13:10
jlaska | okay ... last Test day topic ... Aug 31 13:10
sdziallas | jlaska: okey dokey... (I thought I had added #fedora-qa to my auto-login, but apparently xchat ate it) Aug 31 13:10
jlaska | no worries Aug 31 13:10
jlaska | #topic Test Day Updates - X drv week Aug 31 13:10
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Test Day Updates - X drv week (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 13:10
jlaska | adamw: so next week is the <suspense music> ... X test week, right? Aug 31 13:11
adamw | i believe it is! i should really add an intel day. Aug 31 13:11
adamw | but right now we have radeon and nouveau days on wednesday and thursday. Aug 31 13:11
jlaska | awesome, looking forward to those Aug 31 13:12
adamw | i haven't put the pages together yet, will do so soon. it will be similar to the f11 days - just general testing of the drivers' capabilities, find out where we're at, particularly with newer stuff like nouveau modesetting Aug 31 13:12
jlaska | hopefully be able to re-use a lot of your previous test cases? Aug 31 13:12
jlaska | s/be // Aug 31 13:12
dpravec | intel drivers are worse and worse each month Aug 31 13:13
dpravec | it was much better 2 years ago Aug 31 13:13
jlaska | dpravec: this will be a good chance to figure out how bad things are prior to the beta Aug 31 13:13
adamw | yeah, we'll be re-using test cases. Aug 31 13:13
jlaska | adamw: any issues/action you wanted to raise in the meeting today on that? Aug 31 13:14
adamw | not really, i don't think Aug 31 13:15
adamw | if anyone has ideas / suggestions please shoot :) Aug 31 13:15
jlaska | you're F-11 versions of these were very successful in terms of participation Aug 31 13:15
jlaska | dunno ... any updates to the xorg debugging guide needed in preparation to this? Aug 31 13:16
jlaska | any new files, or debugging boot args to consider for it Aug 31 13:16
jlaska | alrighty ... let's change over to open discussion Aug 31 13:18
jlaska | #topic Open discussion - zsync Aug 31 13:18
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Open discussion - zsync (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 13:18
jlaska | #link http://zsync.moria.org.uk/ Aug 31 13:18
jlaska | kparal: so what's the take-away for zsync? Aug 31 13:18
kparal | Oxf13: why do you think zsync etc is slower than full download? we have veery slow line, and scanning of previous image takes only 30sec Aug 31 13:19
kparal | we = brno branch Aug 31 13:19
Oxf13 | because a Fedora live image is just an iso file with a squashfs imge file in it Aug 31 13:19
Oxf13 | and the squasfs image file isn't lined up in a way that r/zsync can take advantage of only syncing the differences Aug 31 13:20
Oxf13 | the data is essentially random, not useful with rsync Aug 31 13:20
jlaska | does this require some server-side data files to assist? Aug 31 13:20
jlaska | like delta-rpms and delta-isos? Aug 31 13:21
kparal | Oxf13: haven't really tried, so I can't say. i will probably try it with some live images, just for curiosity :) but if it is the way you say it, then it really can't help Aug 31 13:21
adamw | there's no practical way you can do a delta between two fedora-style live images, AIUI Aug 31 13:21
dpravec | kparal: squashfs is pretty heavy ;) Aug 31 13:21
kparal | jlaska: a small .zsync file is generated on the server side and downloaded by the client, that's all Aug 31 13:21
adamw | deltas work for installer-style Fedora images because they contain discrete package files, many of which don't change Aug 31 13:21
dpravec | i mean you will be hardly able to improve it - if all is in one squashfs image Aug 31 13:22
kparal | alright Aug 31 13:22
adamw | but as oxf13 says, our live images are, practically speaking, one big 600+MB file which contains a filesystem image, and if you tweak even the smallest thing in the image, the data is completely different as far as any kind of delta system is concerned Aug 31 13:22
adamw | right, jesse? Aug 31 13:22
Oxf13 | that's my understanding Aug 31 13:22
jlaska | #idea Can zsync be used to improve download speed of rawhide live images? Aug 31 13:23
adamw | i suppose theoretically you could build a filesystem image tool and a delta tool which worked in such a way that you could generate a useful delta, but i'm not aware that any such thing exists at present... Aug 31 13:23
wwoods | as I understand zsync & squashfs, zsync isn't going to help anything at all Aug 31 13:23
dpravec | adamw: i see what you mean :D Aug 31 13:24
jlaska | #agree consensus is that zsync won't improve download speed since live images are a single squashfs image. May be useful for milestone ISO downloads where delta-iso is used Aug 31 13:24
* | jlaska playing with meetbot Aug 31 13:24
jlaska | #agreed consensus is that zsync won't improve download speed since live images are a single squashfs image. May be useful for milestone ISO downloads where delta-iso is used Aug 31 13:24
wwoods | someone should test this theory, though Aug 31 13:24
kparal | i think i will play with it tonight :) Aug 31 13:25
adamw | is that the time-honored version of 'someone' which means 'anyone but me'? :) Aug 31 13:25
wwoods | because the idea will keep coming back unless we have some data to back/disprove the assertion Aug 31 13:25
* | adamw uses that 'someone' a lot Aug 31 13:25
wwoods | adamw: usually people use 'we' for that Aug 31 13:25
adamw | hehe Aug 31 13:25
jlaska | #action kparal to test download zsync downloads Aug 31 13:25
wwoods | rsync actually works quite well on the normal DVD/CD images Aug 31 13:26
jlaska | well, too many 'download's in that stmt ... but you get the idea :) Aug 31 13:26
wwoods | but squashfs is going to get in the way Aug 31 13:26
jlaska | #topic Open discussion - <your topic here> Aug 31 13:26
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Open discussion - <your topic here> (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 13:26
jlaska | any other issues folks want to discuss in the meeting today? Aug 31 13:26
jlaska | favorite error messages? Aug 31 13:27
jlaska | missing test days? Aug 31 13:27
jlaska | :) Aug 31 13:27
fenris02 | any thoughts on removing suid and using caps? Aug 31 13:27
dpravec | do you remember my ponny ? i think i can have one, but i will write about it next meeting Aug 31 13:27
adamw | yay Aug 31 13:27
* | adamw loves ponies Aug 31 13:27
jlaska | fenris02: is that mozilla specific? Aug 31 13:27
* | jlaska looking at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/components/ConfigPolicy.html Aug 31 13:27
* | jlaska figures google steered me wrong Aug 31 13:28
fenris02 | jlaska, no, you can remove suid from ping, traceroute, cups, etc.. and replace with caps Aug 31 13:28
adamw | i think that's more suited to a development group discussion than QA group Aug 31 13:28
dpravec | thats interesting Aug 31 13:28
jlaska | fenris02: I think adamw hit the nail on the head there Aug 31 13:29
fenris02 | it was slated to be in f12 according to the wiki so i asked :) Aug 31 13:29
jlaska | fenris02: if a larger change ... perhaps worthy of a feature page Aug 31 13:29
adamw | er, i may be missing the question :) Aug 31 13:29
jlaska | fenris02: is there a feature for this already? Aug 31 13:29
* | jlaska queues up FeatureList Aug 31 13:29
adamw | are you talking about https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LowerProcessCapabilities ? Aug 31 13:29
fenris02 | moment, let me see if i can find it Aug 31 13:29
fenris02 | quick-draw adam got it Aug 31 13:30
jlaska | hehe Aug 31 13:30
jlaska | #topic Open discussion - Features/LowerProcessCapabilities Aug 31 13:30
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Open discussion - Features/LowerProcessCapabilities (Meeting topic: Fedora QA Meeting) Aug 31 13:30
adamw | so what's the question about it? Aug 31 13:30
dpravec | let me remind, we have new mailing list ! low traffic announcments about testing events! Aug 31 13:30
jlaska | # Last updated: 2009-08-31 Aug 31 13:30
jlaska | # Percentage of completion: 50% Aug 31 13:30
dpravec | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test-announce <-- maillist page Aug 31 13:30
fenris02 | adamw, it hasnt moved, and isnt in f12a yet. Aug 31 13:31
jlaska | fenris02: is this just a status check on the feature for F12? Aug 31 13:31
fenris02 | jlaska, pretty much Aug 31 13:31
wwoods | seems like "too late to complete for F12, defer to F13" Aug 31 13:32
adamw | yeah, me too Aug 31 13:32
wwoods | since we're past the feature freeze Aug 31 13:32
jlaska | 50% complete ... eeek Aug 31 13:32
adamw | it's a freaking nightmare from a qa perspective and we didn't ship it in alpha, so...ugh Aug 31 13:32
fenris02 | wwoods, yeah, i was afraid of that Aug 31 13:32
wwoods | is that fact not widely known, or something? Aug 31 13:32
wwoods | it's past feature freeze. if it's not in now, it's not going in Aug 31 13:32
fenris02 | jlaska, most of it's trivial, depends how much they want to implement Aug 31 13:32
adamw | it's been discussed somewhat on -devel-list Aug 31 13:33
adamw | i think there was some kind of suggestion of doing a small subset of the changes, but i forget the details Aug 31 13:33
jlaska | anyone interested in chasing down status on this feature w/ sgrubb and the FeatureWrangler? Aug 31 13:33
wwoods | I suppose if the work is already done for, say, the stuff that appears in a minimal install Aug 31 13:34
wwoods | then the feature could get split up Aug 31 13:34
jlaska | part#1 - F12, part#2 - F13 Aug 31 13:34
jlaska | yeah Aug 31 13:34
fenris02 | ping/traceroute are completely trivial. httpd is not exactly trivial. (for examples of each) Aug 31 13:35
jlaska | that's reasonable and we seem to be doing that more and more now with other features Aug 31 13:35
wwoods | but yeah, otherwise: not finished, past feature freeze, you now have 6 months to finish for F13, good luck Aug 31 13:35
jlaska | is this worth a check-in w/ the maintainer ... or does this get auto punted? Aug 31 13:35
jlaska | there are plenty on the list still that are not @ 100% complete Aug 31 13:36
jlaska | so this is a larger can of worms Aug 31 13:36
dpravec | also mtr is not useable by normal user... Aug 31 13:36
jlaska | all but 2 are @ 85% and higher Aug 31 13:36
jlaska | I think this will be an outstanding todo ... I don't know of any good ways to tackle this now (open to ideas) Aug 31 13:37
--- | stickster_afk is now known as stickster Aug 31 13:38
fenris02 | there's quite a list of "easy" ones, but it would need rpm package changes. (eject killall modprobe ntpdate qemu route) Aug 31 13:38
jlaska | #idea should 'Lower Process Capabilities' be split into two features ... one for existing F12 work, and one for remaining F13 work Aug 31 13:38
jlaska | fenris02: do you want to reach out to sgrubb on this? Aug 31 13:39
fenris02 | jlaska, sure, i'll see how i can help Aug 31 13:39
jlaska | I'll be happy to take it, unless 'someone' else would be better suited Aug 31 13:39
jlaska | fenris02: thanks, feel free to include me on the list ... I'm curious too Aug 31 13:39
jlaska | #action fenris02 - check-in w/ sgrubb on devel status of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LowerProcessCapabilities Aug 31 13:40
jlaska | okay ... let's wrap things up today Aug 31 13:40
jlaska | please follow-up to fedora-test-list@ or #fedora-qa should any new issues come up before next week Aug 31 13:40
jlaska | thanks all for your time :) Aug 31 13:40
jlaska | #endmeeting Aug 31 13:41
adamw | yaay, we're free Aug 31 13:41
--- | zodbot has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Aug 31 13:41
zodbot | Meeting ended Mon Aug 31 17:41:30 2009 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . Aug 31 13:41
zodbot | Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-08-31/fedora-meeting.2009-08-31-16.00.html Aug 31 13:41
zodbot | Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-08-31/fedora-meeting.2009-08-31-16.00.txt Aug 31 13:41
zodbot | Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-08-31/fedora-meeting.2009-08-31-16.00.log.html Aug 31 13:41
jlaska | adamw: heh Aug 31 13:41

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