Fedora 11 Features, Questions and Answers(20090607 Classroom)

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---Topic for #fedora-classroom is Fedora Classroom - Sessions on 2009-06-07 (UTC time all day). See Classroom for updates and changes. Jun 07 13:00
---Topic for #fedora-classroom set by herlo at Sun May 10 22:28:53 2009 Jun 07 13:00
nirik Hello everyone. Who all is here for the Class? Jun 07 13:00
nirik I'm going to talk about resources for Fedora 11 (which releases on tuesday) and perhaps go over features in F11. Jun 07 13:01
*ianweller Jun 07 13:01
nirik I'm happy to answer questions on the release... so feel free to chime in anytime. Jun 07 13:01
DiscordianUK I'm here, thanks Jun 07 13:01
*Cheshirc_ throws his spitwad straw away Jun 07 13:01
nirik ok, I'll go ahead and get started. Jun 07 13:02
nirik First off, the docs folks have written up some excellent docs for this release as always. Jun 07 13:02
nirik This is a great time to read: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/ Jun 07 13:03
nirik The release notes are short bits of info of whats changed in this release vs the last one. Jun 07 13:03
nirik Lots of good info in there. Jun 07 13:03
nirik Of course the install guide is great for people first installing Fedora: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ Jun 07 13:03
nirik note that some of these are drafts until tuesdays release, but they already contain close to the final content. Jun 07 13:04
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nirik There is also a selinux guide for the security types: Jun 07 13:04
nirik http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/f11/html-single/ Jun 07 13:04
nirik Lots of things are covered in the release notes that we see people asking about over in #fedora after a release, so thats really the one I would suggest everyone read. Jun 07 13:05
nirik It's short and full of good info Jun 07 13:05
nirik ok, any questions on those docs/ Jun 07 13:05
nirik  ? Jun 07 13:05
DiscordianUK How about a guide for this migrating from F10 to F11? Jun 07 13:06
nirik The next great source of info I would like to note is the wiki. Jun 07 13:06
DiscordianUK s/this/those/ Jun 07 13:06
nirik DiscordianUK: Great question. Jun 07 13:06
nirik Thats on the wiki: Upgrading Jun 07 13:07
DiscordianUK Thank you I shall read that before Tuesday Jun 07 13:07
nirik You can use the media to do an upgrade. You can use preupgrade, or yum. Or you can re-install and restore your user data. Jun 07 13:07
nirik Some folks find that keeping a seperate /home and just re-installing to be easier than upgrading. You also get some new features this way. Jun 07 13:08
nirik like for example ext4 in Fedora 11. Jun 07 13:08
*sdodson trying preupgrade right now Jun 07 13:08
nirik ok, to continue on with wiki docs... Jun 07 13:08
nirik Fedora_11_FAQ Is a overview/faq for f11. Jun 07 13:08
nirik Lots of questions answered there about the release. Jun 07 13:09
nirik Finally, linked to from there is: Common_F11_bugs Jun 07 13:09
nirik These are bugs that were not fixed by release time, but have workarounds or are known. Jun 07 13:09
nirik If you run into a bug this should be your first stop to see if it's already known/has a workaround/is already fixed in an update. Jun 07 13:10
nirik ok, those are the important docs I can think of. Jun 07 13:11
nirik Anyone have any further questions on docs? Jun 07 13:11
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nirik great. I would like to move on to talking about some Fedora 11 features. ;) Jun 07 13:13
nirik This is a great release for those... there are a ton of them! :0 Jun 07 13:13
nirik http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/FeatureList Jun 07 13:13
nirik is the feature list. Jun 07 13:13
nirik I guess I will touch on random features that I find exciting. If anyone would like more info on any one in particular, just let me know. Jun 07 13:14
nirik The 20 second startup feature has worked on making startups faster. I haven't measured my machines here, but startup does "feel" faster from F10 for me. Jun 07 13:15
nirik Of course that figure will vary depending on your hardware/disks/setup. Jun 07 13:15
nirik The change from i386 to i586 packages should result in a bit of a performance increase for our 32bit users. Jun 07 13:16
nirik The automatic font/mime type installer feature is cool. When you get some text in a language that doesn't have a font that can display it, packagekit will now prompt you to install a font for that locale. Jun 07 13:17
nirik also, this will work with multimedia content. Jun 07 13:17
DiscordianUK Like codecs? Jun 07 13:18
nirik DiscordianUK: yep. If you have 3rd party repos enabled that provide them it will automagically install the ones you need. Jun 07 13:18
nirik well, it will prompt you to install rather. Jun 07 13:19
nirik DNS Security is nice. I read the other day that they are finally going to sign the top level domains... Jun 07 13:19
DiscordianUK That's a cool feature Jun 07 13:20
nirik EXT4 will be the default / filesystem for Fedora 11. Should provide some small incremental performance increases. Jun 07 13:20
nirik note that /boot must be ext3 still. Grub cannot read from ext4 yet. Jun 07 13:21
nirik likely that will go away in the next devel cycle (there is a patch, it's just not gotten enough testing yet) Jun 07 13:21
DiscordianUK Oh Jun 07 13:21
nirik Ext4_in_Fedora_11 Jun 07 13:22
nirik has more info on ext4 and questions about it. Jun 07 13:22
nirik you can somewhat migrate from ext3, but a new install is best to get all the features. Jun 07 13:23
nirik any questions on any of those features? Or shall I move on to some more? :) Jun 07 13:24
DiscordianUK If it's the default now what options comprise default in /etc/fstab? Jun 07 13:25
DiscordianUK There have been some concerns about the stability of ext4 Jun 07 13:25
nirik I'm not sure off hand. I can look. Jun 07 13:25
DiscordianUK It doesn't matter immediately Jun 07 13:26
nirik Yes, but Fedora has a excellent ext4 developer on hand... he's patched things the right way. :) Jun 07 13:26
Plouj I'm wondering about ABRT. I've been reading that Ubuntu and SUSE are happily working on their own Apport. Jun 07 13:26
nirik Plouj: good question. I did see some talk about what it would take to merge them back together. Jun 07 13:26
Plouj oh Jun 07 13:26
nirik Hopefully something like that could happen. It seems a shame to duplicate efforts. Jun 07 13:27
Plouj regarding the i386>i586 change Jun 07 13:28
nirik ask away. Jun 07 13:28
Plouj are the x86_64 users already way beyond the i586 arch so that there is nothing better for then? Jun 07 13:28
nirik well, depends on what you mean by 'better'. ;) Jun 07 13:29
Plouj I mean a newer architecture Jun 07 13:29
nirik the issue is that x86_64 is a pretty common set of things...we already know how best to tune for all the machines in it. Jun 07 13:29
Plouj if x86_64 was i386 Jun 07 13:29
nirik the x86 arch has i386/i486/i686/centuar/whatever/ Jun 07 13:30
nirik so there are all varying models with their own issues/tweaks. Jun 07 13:30
nirik For a long time it wasn't worth it (in the tools) to change i386 to a higher set... now it is, and there are many fewer i386/i486 machines running fedora (0 I hope) Jun 07 13:30
Plouj k Jun 07 13:31
Plouj what about changing i586 to i686? Jun 07 13:31
nirik so, this change does leave them out, but improves things for all the i586+ people. Jun 07 13:31
DiscordianUK So why i586 and not i686? Jun 07 13:31
nirik that was talked about. :) Jun 07 13:31
nirik the concern was several fold: there are still some i586 machines (more than i386/i486 for sure), and finally OPLC might be affected by that change. Jun 07 13:32
DiscordianUK Ahh yes makes sense Jun 07 13:32
nirik OLPC is mostly i686, but without CMOV. So, it was unclear if changing to i686 would break them. Jun 07 13:32
muep Did Fedora even boot on plain i386 hardware before the change to i586? Jun 07 13:32
nirik muep: I doubt it. Lack of memory if nothing else. Jun 07 13:32
muep My VIA C3 equipped motherboard at least fails to boot both Fedora 10 and CentOS Jun 07 13:33
muep it should be at least i486 Jun 07 13:33
nirik "rw,relatime,barrier=1,data=ordered" seems to be the default EXT4 options here (at least from a live install). Jun 07 13:33
muep Debian with the i486 kernel does work Jun 07 13:34
nirik I would expect CentOS to at least work there... Jun 07 13:34
muep nope, doesn't get past boot loader Jun 07 13:34
nirik strange, no idea off hand. ;) Jun 07 13:34
DiscordianUK That's good news nirik, that's a nicely conservative set of defaults Jun 07 13:34
muep I mean, the boot loader screen works, but nothing else Jun 07 13:34
muep but well, at least now it's probably best to try to move on from that hardware Jun 07 13:35
nirik yeah, should be easy to get a much better replacement. Jun 07 13:35
muep Even though it's a server, I'd prefer running Fedora on it Jun 07 13:35
nirik ok, anything further on the arch feature? Shall we move on? Any other paticular ones people are interested in discussing? Jun 07 13:35
nirik There is the typical newer versions of lots of things: kde, gnome, xfce all have updates. gcc, firefox, python, rpm, thunderbird also Jun 07 13:36
Plouj firefox 3.5, heh Jun 07 13:36
Plouj will that be included in the updates or something like f12/f13? Jun 07 13:37
nirik it's in Fedora 11. ;) Jun 07 13:37
Plouj the featurelist shows 3.1 Jun 07 13:37
ianweller that's cuz 3.1 is 3.5. Jun 07 13:37
nirik yeah, upstream decided to rename it 3.5 Jun 07 13:37
muep mozilla changed the version number Jun 07 13:37
Plouj oh Jun 07 13:37
Plouj great Jun 07 13:38
Plouj so, we'll be able to test that <video> thingy Jun 07 13:38
nirik beta4 will be in F11 release I think. Jun 07 13:38
muep the video thing works, at least Jun 07 13:38
nirik an update to final will come when thats out Jun 07 13:38
*nirik uses midori, in which the video thing also works. ;) Jun 07 13:39
Plouj midori? Jun 07 13:39
nirik the thunderbird update is also one that lots of people are interested in. Jun 07 13:39
herlo nirik: RC4 don't you mean? Jun 07 13:39
Plouj oh, I thought the midori OS Jun 07 13:39
nirik Plouj: web browser. ;) Jun 07 13:40
nirik herlo: the package says beta4... they might have meant rc4. ;) Jun 07 13:40
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herlo nirik: oh, I thought you were referring to F11 RC4, not FF Jun 07 13:40
*herlo goes back to lurking Jun 07 13:40
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nirik ok, on to another feature lots of people will enjoy: Delta rpms! Jun 07 13:42
nirik It's not enabled by default yet, but it's available for people who want to test it. Jun 07 13:42
nirik simply: 'yum install yum-presto' Jun 07 13:42
Plouj Oh, it's not enabled by default? Why not? Jun 07 13:42
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nirik and then yum will use it if it can. Jun 07 13:42
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nirik Plouj: the work to get it working landed very very late. It was thought that it didn't get enough testing to enable for everyone. Jun 07 13:43
nirik it likely will be for f12. Jun 07 13:43
Plouj humm Jun 07 13:43
nirik I have seen very high savings... 90%+ on some updates. Jun 07 13:43
Plouj this isn't in the feature list, but how is pulseaudio going? Jun 07 13:43
nirik It's going. ;) There are some issues with the default gnome-volume in F11. Look at the volume feature. Jun 07 13:44
nirik it's unable to handle some use cases where you need to switch input. Otherwise it's very nice.e Jun 07 13:44
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nirik pulse continues to expose ALSA bugs and hopefully those get fixed so it works out of the box for more folks Jun 07 13:44
nirik see Fedora_11_FAQ#My_sound_doesn.27t_work.3F if you run into a bug with it now. Jun 07 13:45
Plouj ok, great, thanks Jun 07 13:47
nirik Lots of video driver work in this release. Radeon (ati) has gotten tons of work, as well as intel and to some extent Nouveau (nvidia) Jun 07 13:47
Plouj yeah Jun 07 13:47
nirik the intel driver seems a lot more stable here than f10. Kernel modesetting works nicely now for me and many others. Jun 07 13:47
Plouj the nouveau test day was fun (at least for me) Jun 07 13:47
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nirik for radeon, more chips supported with 3d, kernel modesetting and lots of bugfixes Jun 07 13:48
Plouj does the free/opensource radeon driver support 3d on any recent laptop chipsets? (Sorry, but I'm ignorant about AMD models) Jun 07 13:48
nirik Plouj: it does. Jun 07 13:48
nirik r300/r400/r500 should all work I think. Jun 07 13:49
Plouj I'm asking from a laptop buyer's perspective. Jun 07 13:49
nirik yeah, many of the radeon ones should work. You should check the specific model of course. Jun 07 13:49
muep R600 radeons have xv and exa accelerations, afaik Jun 07 13:51
linuxguru_ kms in intel works here , i got boot splash with my f11 setup ; Jun 07 13:51
muep No 3D yet, but they work nice for the things they currently do Jun 07 13:52
nirik any other features or docs folks would like to know about/go over before we end the session? Jun 07 13:52
muep Even R100 radeons have KMS :-) Jun 07 13:52
linuxguru_ selinux is much more enhanced in fedora 11 , svirt goodness is all there for ya Jun 07 13:53
linuxguru_ i hope it was covered earlier , before /me joined in here , Jun 07 13:53
DiscordianUK I've no more questions, thank you nirik Jun 07 13:53
nirik svirt is great. Working nicely on a machine here... Jun 07 13:54
muep what's svirt? Jun 07 13:54
nirik http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SVirt_Mandatory_Access_Control Jun 07 13:54
nirik selinux for virtual stuff. ;) Jun 07 13:55
nirik basically keep the instances from messing with the host or other guests. Jun 07 13:55
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muep does this relate to the fact that I no longer need to setenforce 0 to have my VMs able to access disks? Jun 07 13:56
nirik possibly, although thats more likely you are saving the disks to the place selinux expects. ;) Jun 07 13:56
nirik ie, /var/lib/libvirt/images/ Jun 07 13:56
muep I use LVM volumes Jun 07 13:57
muep I don't have hundreds of gigabytes of space in /var ... Jun 07 13:58
linuxguru_ lvm volumes are also mounted on a directory before you can access those, you just need to have the write context set on the directory Jun 07 13:58
nirik yeah, that should work fine too. Jun 07 13:58
linuxguru_ semanage fcontext --help , your friend Jun 07 13:58
muep linuxguru_: afaik, they are accessed directly by the vms Jun 07 13:58
muep The LVs are used as disks Jun 07 13:58
muep If I didn't use LVs, I'd need to have some big files to use as disks Jun 07 13:59
linuxguru_ didnt knew that , Jun 07 13:59
linuxguru_ but then also there must be label for that Jun 07 13:59
linuxguru_ maybe for the file /dev Jun 07 14:00
muep If you use them as usually for storing a filesystem with files, they are indeed mounted somewhere before you can access their contents Jun 07 14:00
nirik ok, if no one has anything else, lets go ahead and close out. Of course further conversation is welcome. ;) Jun 07 14:00
nirik Everyone is welcome to join #fedora-social for release party this week... and enjoy Fedora 11! :) Jun 07 14:01
DiscordianUK Thank you Jun 07 14:02
nirik Thanks everyone for coming! Jun 07 14:02
smfry60  :) Jun 07 14:02
Cheshirc__ thanks nirik Jun 07 14:02
zubair thanks nirik Jun 07 14:03

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