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Fedora Classroom - KDE4 for KDE3 Users - Rex Dieter and Kevin Kofler - Saturday, December 6, 2008

-!- nirik changed the topic of #fedora-classroom to: Fedora IRC Classroom - KDE4 for KDE3 users with Kevin Kofler and Rex Dieter ( Kevin_Kofler and rdieter ). See Communicate/IRC/Classroom for schedule and more information. 14:45
rdieter we've got blah blah general stuff to talk about too, but I'd rather cover what *you* want. 14:45
rdieter so, let's take a few minutes to do just that. any takers? 14:45
* LukasT patiently waiting for blah-blah 14:45
rdieter dont' be shy. If we were in a real classroom, I'd make all you folks in the back row, come sit in the front. :) 14:46
* herlo wants to understand the biggest differences between KDE3 & KDE4 14:46
* nirik uses digikam and akregator here... new digkam seems to have issues. ;( 14:46
Kevin_Kofler I suggest we start with the most commonly-asked question: "What happened to my desktop icons?" :-) 14:47
* zcat wants to know a fuzzy guestimate on feature parity between kde3 & 4. they're slowlying popping back into existence (yay tabs. yay treeview! :) 14:47
rdieter nod 14:48
rdieter zcat: what specific features did you have in mind? 14:48
zcat the problem is that i've forgotten many of the features i couldn't live without :) 14:48
* LukasT wants to know if it is possible to have just one main menu in panel for every application (it was possible in KDE3, I did not used it but friend of mine do) 14:48
Kevin_Kofler LukasT: You mean the Mac-like menubar? 14:49
LukasT Kevin_Kofler: yep 14:49
Kevin_Kofler There was some work on implementing that, I'm not sure what happened of it unfortunately. :-( 14:49
rdieter ie, add app shortcuts to panel? 14:49
Kevin_Kofler rdieter: No, the Mac-style "menu bar at the top of the screen, outside of the window". 14:50
LukasT nah... Main menu of any app is in panel 14:50
LukasT exactly ^^ 14:50
rdieter oh, funky, never seen/used that one before. 14:50
Kevin_Kofler KDE 3 had that option, I've read about plans to implement it in KDE 4, but I haven't read anything new about it for a while. 14:50
rdieter yeah, this highlights some of the major reworking from kde3 -> kde4. kde3 as a platform has been around for a *long* time. 14:51
LukasT ok, so news about it right? 14:51
rdieter and over time, accumulated many many quirks, features, etc... many were used a lot, many... not so much. 14:51
LukasT no news.. 14:51
rdieter In short, not every one of these has been worked on to be in kde4, and many may well never be included or ported. 14:52
rdieter most of the good ones either already are in KDE4, or are actively being worked on in one form or another. 14:52
rdieter the downside is that there's no authortive source to track every once-existing KDE3 feature and it's KDE4 development. 14:53
zcat rdieter, some very visible 'problems' with kde4, to me: screensaver+powersaver still doesn't powersave; powersave alone works, keyboard shortcuts don't mirror gnome ootb anymore (ctrl-alt-arrow keys workspace switching, ctrl-alt-d to show desktop, xf86calculator mapped to kcalc oob, etc), ... drawing a blank. 14:54
zcat superficial 14:54
rdieter The aim for the KDE4 platform is to make it powerful and flexible enough to be able to do all those things. 14:55
rdieter the oft-misunderstood plasma is the posterchild of that. 14:55
Kevin_Kofler 14:55
Kevin_Kofler This is the code for the Mac-style menubar. 14:55
Kevin_Kofler Unfortunately not much happened in the last 7 months. :-( 14:55
rdieter KDE4, in using many new technologies, and also good at exposing bugs lower in the tech stack, highlights include namely: X drivers (argb, Xrender, opengl related issues) 14:56
killefiz what is the state of kde in rawhide at the moment? Will upgrading my test-machine to rawhide get me a working kde 4.2beta currently? 14:56
rdieter zcat: for example, I've seen/heard reports about powersave issues, but I can't personally reproduce that on my boxes 14:57
rdieter killefiz: good question 14:57
Kevin_Kofler How is keyboard shortcuts not mirroring GNOME an issue? 14:57
Kevin_Kofler KDE 4 wants to be better than GNOME, not copy it. ;-) 14:57
rdieter killefiz: best advice: rawhide eatss babies, and this early in the release cycle (right after f10 release), is not something I would recommend for general use, unless you really know what you're doing, and have no qualms about re-installing. 14:58
CD1KDE KDE 4 is already better than GNOME :-) 14:58
Kevin_Kofler rdieter: What about kde-redhat unstable? Can you kick off some 4.2 Beta 1 builds there? We've had several people asking for it in #fedora-kde already. 14:59
rdieter 4.2beta is, for the most part, in rawhide now. We've plans to rebuild these for availabilty for releases (unofficially) at some point soon: kde-redhat unstable repos, unofficial (unbranded) F10 livecd's, etc. 14:59
Kevin_Kofler Actually all the core parts are now in, only extragear is still left to update. 14:59
rdieter wrt to keyboard shortcuts, one example of "mirroring gnome" was to add cntl-alt arrow shortcuts to move between virtual desktoips 15:00
Kevin_Kofler And everything using Plasma (kde-plasma-*, compiz-kde) has been rebuilt for the new Plasma API/ABI. 15:00
Beineri or ported 15:01
rdieter and more can be added, but as we (kde-sig) generally don't follow/use gnome, we're often not privy to what shortcuts to add to help, feedback, bugs welcome in that regard. 15:01
LukasT How do you choose what will be backported? 15:01
Kevin_Kofler Beineri: Yes, they all needed a small patch. 15:01
Kevin_Kofler Except for Lancelot which got replaced by the version in kdeplasma-addons-4.1.80 altogether. 15:02
CD1KDE I've heard Kopete has had a great improvement on KDE 4.2. what kind of improvements are they? 15:02
rdieter CD1KDE: I'm aware of at least: better/rewritten msn support 15:03
Kevin_Kofler Also Sametime support (through meanwhile) is available again. 15:03
LukasT Are there any software to migrate data from GNOME Desktop to KDE Desktop ? Like history of pidgin to kopete? Or Accounts from Thunderbird to KMail? 15:03
CD1KDE rdieter: thanks 15:03
Kevin_Kofler We don't have the new M$N/WLM backend yet though, we need libmsn packaged. 15:03
Kevin_Kofler We need that quickly, right now Kopete in Rawhide has no M$N support at all. 15:04
rdieter LukasT: kmail has import support for varius things (mail in standard formats, addressbooks) 15:04
Kevin_Kofler Not accounts though, I think. 15:05
Kevin_Kofler Some stuff can be imported, but not all. 15:05
Kevin_Kofler The accounts probably have to be configured again. 15:05
jreznik LukasT: one of my students is working on bachelor thesis - KDE migration guide, so it can be expected in next few month 15:05
rdieter jreznik: nice 15:05
LukasT nice jreznik :) 15:05
rdieter while speaking of resources, if you don't know: is an excellent one (wki'zed for your pleasure, so contributions welcome) 15:06
jreznik the idea is to allow migrate from pidgin, firefox etc + storing/restoring (not only) KDE settings 15:06
rdieter on the developer-side, 15:06
LukasT Red Hat seems to be nice about KDE. I read some abstracts of thesis from RedHat Brno and they nicely support KDE :) 15:06
* rdieter pats jreznik, ltinkl on the back. 15:07
Kevin_Kofler Still, their "Desktop Team" is essentially all GNOME developers. 15:08
rdieter nod, call a spade a spade and call it the "Gnome team", while we're at it: Desktop spin -> gnome spin, but that's a debate topic for another time and place. :) 15:09
jreznik LukasT: we are now 1.5 developers here in Brno, I'm paid for s-c-tools mainly and thesis are way how to support KDE more 15:09
jreznik KDE is not part of Desktop team in Red Hat, it's part of Base OS 15:10
rdieter Let me take a few moments to mention our Fedora KDE-SIG, what it is, who we are, what we do, how you too can get involved. 15:10
rdieter 15:10
Kevin_Kofler jreznik: Well, it makes sense, KDE is part of the basics, GNOME is an optional add-on. :-p 15:10
rdieter We're a group of fedora contributors interested basically in making kde (on fedora) better. 15:11
LukasT jreznik: nice :) I thought about doing diploma for Red Hat, I liked the abstract about collaborative editing in KOffice, but I decided to continue on my work from Google Summer Of Code -- so I will work on brushes in KOffice/Krita 15:11
rdieter That includes anything and everything related to that: packaging, documentation, outreach (amassador-type stuff), debugging, triage, plus anything else you can think of. 15:12
rdieter many of us are in #fedora-kde a lot, so you're all welcome, invited to stop by, if you've got anything on your mind. 15:13
Kevin_Kofler And of course you're invited to join if you want to help. :-) 15:13
Kevin_Kofler A lot of us are community volunteers. 15:13
jreznik LukasT: I think it's not a problem to do it for RH too, we are still looking for developers and this is nice way to hire best associates 15:13
LukasT jreznik: what would you advice me to do ? 15:14
rdieter We also conduct weekly meetings too, , so you know a good time to catch us when we're all watching and in one place. :) 15:14
LukasT rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: How many hours do you spend working on KDE in Fedora ? 15:15
LukasT rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: what is your motivation? 15:15
rdieter doing something you love, doesn't really count as work, does it? :) oh, hard-core *work*, maybe 10-20 hrs /week. 15:16
jreznik LukasT: PM me to not to mess this channel :) 15:16
Kevin_Kofler Well, at first I got started because I needed KDE 4 libraries to start porting KTIGCC (my TIGCC IDE for KDE) to KDE 4. 15:16
Kevin_Kofler But now I find working on Fedora KDE packages more interesting than working on KTIGCC itself. :-) 15:16
rdieter for my fedora/kde history/background, here's a good read <plug type=shameless></plug> 15:17
Kevin_Kofler It's also nice when I can fix the bugs which annoy me the most. :-) 15:17
Kevin_Kofler For example I fixed "stop animations" in Konqueror. 15:17
Kevin_Kofler And we're all decisive when it comes from preventing Fedora from degrading into a GNOME-only distribution. 15:19
rdieter otherwise, we're very much a fedora/rhel linux shop @ work, so much of what I do, overlaps and counts as part of my paid gig. 15:19
Kevin_Kofler For example, KDM almost became mostly useless in Fedora 7 due to missing ConsoleKit support. I fixed it. 15:20
rdieter and the "fix" is (finally) upstream now too. yay. 15:20
rdieter got slow a bit, Kevin_Kofler, would you please give an overview of the "desktop icon, folderview plasma applet"? 15:23
Kevin_Kofler Yes, I was about to do that. :-) 15:23
Kevin_Kofler So basically KDE 4.1 supports 2 types of desktop icons: 15:24
Kevin_Kofler 1. The quick hack from KDE 4.0: 15:24
Kevin_Kofler * each icon is a plasmoid (Plasma applet/widget) 15:24
Kevin_Kofler * icons are not synchronized with the file system. In particular, deleting the icon won't touch the files, and the opposite doesn't always happen either, so you have to delete things twice 15:25
Kevin_Kofler so this is obviously not the ideal solution. Thus in 4.1, there's a new solution: 15:25
Kevin_Kofler 2. The FolderView plasmoid. 15:25
Kevin_Kofler This is a container (translucent in most Plasma themes) which can display the contents of a folder. 15:26
Kevin_Kofler By default this is the desktop folder. 15:26
Kevin_Kofler But you can make it display any folder, and also have multiple folder views. 15:26
Kevin_Kofler And the contents are automatically kept in sync with the actual contents of the folder. 15:27
Kevin_Kofler So this is more reliable, especially if you want to use it for actual files, not just shortcuts. 15:27
Kevin_Kofler In KDE 4.2, there will be some more FolderView features: 15:27
Kevin_Kofler * the FolderView will actually remember icon positions across sessions (so don't waste your time moving the icons around inside your folder view in 4.1, it just won't work yet) 15:28
Kevin_Kofler * it will be possible to configure your desktop to display only the folder view on the desktop folder, none of the fancy plasmoid stuff, so with that option it'll look just like KDE 3 15:28
Kevin_Kofler So are there any questions about this? Like "how do I add a folder view" or anything like that? 15:29
Beineri only? wrong ;-), you can have a folder view (or other plasmoids) over folder view containment 15:29
Beineri actually confuses users that they get their files displayed twice once the switch containment :-) 15:30
Beineri (without removing default folder view plasmoid manually) 15:30
Kevin_Kofler Right, the folder view can also double as a containment. 15:30
Kevin_Kofler Even if it isn't really what it is for. 15:30
Kevin_Kofler I wonder if something should be done to automatically remove or hide the default folder view if the folder view is selected as the containment. 15:31
Beineri [x] send patch :-) 15:32
rdieter ok, this line of discussion is starting to lose me too, much less our audience. :) How about we talk about the future now? kde-4.2/f-11 type stuff? 15:32
LukasT kde 4.2 wil be in fc10? 15:33
Kevin_Kofler The plan is to push it to F10, probably F9 too. 15:33
rdieter yes, just as we worked hard to get a 4.0 -> 4.1 upgrade out their for F-9, we'll do the same wrt 4.1->4.2 too. 15:33
Kevin_Kofler kdepim makes me nervous, the other stuff should be fairly safe to upgrade. 15:34
rdieter with early testing, sneak-peaks via unofficial avenues such as kde-redhat/unstable, f-10-based-kde42 livecd's 15:34
Kevin_Kofler I see 2 problems with kdepim: the migration to Akonadi and KitchenSync now needing a newer libopensync snapshot than what we have in F10. 15:35
* rdieter needs more time to play with opensuse buildservice too, which could be used for some/a-lot of this fun too. 15:35
Kevin_Kofler F9 will stay on kdepim 3.5 in any case. 15:35
Kevin_Kofler But F10 is the problem. 15:35
rdieter Kevin_Kofler: fwiw, looks like kitchensync/opensync isn't making 4.2 15:35
Kevin_Kofler We can ship a libopensync snapshot and reenable KitchenSync. 15:36
Kevin_Kofler We've been shipping an even more experimental snapshot in F8/F9/F10. 15:36
Beineri rdieter: I heard "Fedora" may be interested in using buildservice itself :-)... 15:37
jreznik OpenSUSE buildservice is very nice build system 15:38
rdieter Beineri: would be fabulous calaboration, I'd welcome working together on something like that. 15:38
rdieter kudos. 15:39
rdieter anyway, we're running short on time, any last thoughts, comments, questions, before we end ? 15:39
Don_Miguel Any idea when we might get to play with "f-10-based-kde42 livecd" 15:41
rdieter Don_Miguel: no eta, when it's ready. Blockers include: getting stuff into rawhide (mostly done), doing the backport builds (todo), spining a cd (todo). 15:41
rdieter Don_Miguel: ok, *rough* eta, gimme a ~1 week, if you don't hear, see anything by then, holler. I'll to my best to move my arse faster. 15:42
Kevin_Kofler Hmmm, one more thing which needs work for Rawhide: kde-l10n. 15:42
Kevin_Kofler Than's 4.1.80 build failed, so we still have 4.1.3 sitting there. 15:42
Don_Miguel rdieter, <grin> Thanks ! 15:43
Kevin_Kofler But we don't need kde-l10n to spin a live CD. :-) 15:43
rdieter Before parting, looks like aseigo will be conducting a live videocast soon today, I'd encourage folks to watch. 15:43
icarus-c argh... due to a technical problem, i can just attend the early part of today classroom /3\ 15:43
icarus-c does anyone got a log for it? 15:43
herlo icarus-c: yes, it's being logged 15:44
rdieter icarus-c: i'm fairly certain, logs for all these sessions will be posted soon somewhere. 15:44
* herlo has already uploaded the logs for the last two sessions 15:44
Don_Miguel on the classroom page with the scedule ... 15:44
icarus-c yea i think i've read that toom but where.. 15:44
* icarus-c is going to have a look 15:44
-!- nirik changed the topic of #fedora-classroom to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Class break. Next class starting at 16:00UTC. See Communicate/IRC/Classroom for schedule and more information. 15:45
rdieter thanks all. 15:45
@nirik thanks Kevin_Kofler and rdieter ! 15:45
icarus-c got that 15:45
Kevin_Kofler You're welcome. :-) 15:45
icarus-c thanks 15:45
SSlater thanks 15:45
* rdieter thanks Beineri too 15:46
Don_Miguel Many THanks ! 15:46
Beineri rdieter: for what? :-) 15:46
mj0vy thank you rdieter and Kevin_Kofler 15:46
rdieter Beineri: for coming, chiming in a couple times. 15:46
* Don_Miguel thinks Beineri volunteered to help too ! 15:46
John5342 exit 15:47
John5342 oops 15:47
herlo rdieter: the link you gave for the videocast doesn't seem to exist 15:47
Beineri Don_Miguel: for? creating kde 4.2 live-cd? almost done ;-) 15:47
rdieter 15:47
rdieter looks like final l got trunc'd in copy-n-paste last time 15:47
Beineri Don_Miguel: ups, missed the f-10 part, sorry 15:47
shepherd thanks guys 15:48
herlo rdieter: ahh 15:48
Kevin_Kofler Beineri: ;-) 15:48
herlo cool, tx 15:48
* LukasT thanks for answers :) 15:48
Don_Miguel Beineri, :-) 15:49

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