From Fedora Project Wiki
Refer to http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2010-07-16/ for the full logs and summary.
Log
| jsmith | #startmeeting Fedora Board Meeting | 18:00 |
|---|---|---|
| zodbot | Meeting started Fri Jul 16 18:00:54 2010 UTC. The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| zodbot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. | 18:00 |
| jsmith | #meetingname Fedora Board | 18:01 |
| zodbot | The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board' | 18:01 |
| jsmith | #chair stickster | 18:01 |
| zodbot | Current chairs: jsmith stickster | 18:01 |
| rdieter | here | 18:01 |
| jsmith | Welcome, all! | 18:01 |
| * spot is here | 18:01 | |
| * jds2001 here | 18:01 | |
| * stickster | 18:01 | |
| * jsmith is here from FUDCon Santiago | 18:01 | |
| * Orv lurks | 18:01 | |
| * mizmo (Máirín Duffy) here | 18:02 | |
| smooge_afk | here | 18:02 |
| smooge_afk | sorry | 18:02 |
| jsmith | As announced, this is going to be an open meeting... We'll open with questions and answers, and see how things go for the first 40 minutes or so | 18:02 |
| jsmith | From there, we'll either continue with Q&A for the remaining time, or move on to other board business | 18:03 |
| jsmith | Sound fair? | 18:03 |
| * stickster notes mdomsch and walters are both unavailable today since they're traveling or off grid | 18:03 | |
| jsmith | #topic Questions and Answers (at large) | 18:04 |
| jds2001 | dont be bashful! :) | 18:04 |
| jsmith | While waiting for questions, let me say that I'm thankful to everyone who helps make Fedora what it is | 18:04 |
| jsmith | There's plenty of work ahead, but I'm very pleased with what I've seen of Fedora over the past few yaers | 18:05 |
| jds2001 | 1 | 18:05 |
| jsmith | s/yaers/years/ | 18:05 |
| stickster | jsmith: Do you want us to lob a couple questions, since no one has chimed in yet? | 18:06 |
| smooge | hmmm most of the people I know who are into asking questions are not here today | 18:06 |
| brunowolff | Does the board have initial impressions of the anthropolgy report? | 18:06 |
| jds2001 | I think it was a worthwhile experience | 18:06 |
| * meGenius wants to know, what kind of ACCEPTABLE questions we can ask... | 18:07 | |
| jds2001 | not everyone may have participated in it | 18:07 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: whatever you'd like :) | 18:07 |
| jsmith | meGenius: Fail early, fail often :-) | 18:07 |
| jds2001 | the whole point of this is to be an open forum :) | 18:07 |
| dgilmore | jsmith: what do you see as the biggest challange in your starting weeks/months? | 18:07 |
| jsmith | brunowolff: I think it was worthwhile... I have a bit of a background in market research, and will be interested to dive into it deeper when I have a chance | 18:08 |
| mizmo | I think it points out that while we're awesome at collaborating, we need to improve our on-boarding processes! ~80% of our contributors have been here 2 years or longer - we need new blood and we need that knowledge in oldtimer folks' heads to be shared with new folks | 18:08 |
| jsmith | brunowolff: But my initial impressions are that there's a lot of data there we can use to improve the Fedora experience (both from the distro and community side) | 18:08 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Well -- where do I begin? | 18:08 |
| EvilBob | I'm in to asking questions but quite busy today | 18:08 |
| stickster | brunowolff: In answer to your question, my impression was that it shows that people get involved in Fedora for many different reasons. | 18:08 |
| jds2001 | mizmo: +1. I think that's a problem in any organization though | 18:08 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: We need to continue to push Fedora development, and to make the Fedora community more inclusive | 18:09 |
| jds2001 | mizmo: there's plenty of tribal knowledge, be that in Fedora or anywhere elsd. | 18:09 |
| * ctyler realizes the time, sorry I'm late | 18:09 | |
| jsmith | dgilmore: I'm reminded this week at FUDCon at the barriers to entry that are there, not because we're trying to be exclusive, but because of language and cultural differences for example | 18:09 |
| mizmo | i think though, it's hard to feel comfortable enough to ask until you get your feet wet, it's that initial experience of getting your feet wet we need to make easier. once someone has accomplished their first project and have gotten positive feedback on it, i think they feel more comfortable getting involved in other projects | 18:10 |
| mizmo | easier to dig the tribal knowledge out :) | 18:10 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: My biggest challenge in the beginning is to find ways to get buy-in from all the parties involved so that we can push with a concerted effort | 18:10 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: I tend to be a bit scatterbrained, but I don't want a scatterbrained approach to Fedora improvement | 18:10 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: I'd rather make it a collaborative effort | 18:10 |
| Devilment | There was a discussion last weekend in #fedora-uk about why isn't there a Fedora LTS. RHEL/CentOS was mentioned as filling this role and how there used to be Fedora Legacy, which ended up folding due to lack of volunteers, IIRC. There is nothing to prevent a third party from providing LTS to a Fedora release, but would we ever see anything official again? | 18:11 |
| dgilmore | jsmith: :) excellente | 18:11 |
| smooge | Devilment, I can speak to some of that | 18:11 |
| jsmith | mizmo: I tend to agree... but we need to focus on the user experience as well, before we can help them through the contribute, participate, lead cycle | 18:11 |
| smooge | Devilment, LTS is a very very 'expensive' operation and volunteers are not usually wanting to do that. | 18:12 |
| jsmith | Devilment: I don't have any immediate plans for a Fedora LTS... the rapid development cycle and community-driven nature of Fedora doesn't really lend itself to long-term updates | 18:12 |
| jds2001 | Devilment: we have infrastructure challenges to face with that. | 18:12 |
| jsmith | Devilment: If I had a full-time staff and ten times the infrastructure, I'd be happy to explore it from the community standpoint | 18:12 |
| jds2001 | in addition to everything that has been said :) | 18:12 |
| rdieter | lts is a noble goal, and seems to have a not-insignificant amount of popularity among users, but apparently not much support among anyone able/willing to do the work to make it happen (a *lot* of work). | 18:13 |
| mizmo | Devilment, do you think there's more community interest in maintaining something like that now compared to the old long term support program we had that died due to lack of interest? | 18:13 |
| smooge | Devilment, it is quite open for other people to do long term support on things which is what we were looking for in Legacy. However many of the people looking to do it found that they didn't have the resources to expend | 18:13 |
| VisBits | <3 fedora. | 18:13 |
| jsmith | VisBits: Thanks! I do too! | 18:13 |
| sijis | what do you consider LTS? don't we already go back 2 releases? | 18:13 |
| VisBits | lol | 18:13 |
| smooge | Thus an LTS is something that would probably fall onto the sponsoring company (eg Red Hat) to put the resources into it.. to make it successful | 18:14 |
| * stickster notes that there was a group of community members who voiced some interest again last year, but I haven't seen the results of that process. | 18:14 | |
| * jds2001 thinks that died. | 18:14 | |
| jsmith | sijis: LTS typically means multiple years of supported updates -- three, five, and seven are common numbers | 18:14 |
| smooge | sijis, Usually the people I know who are looking for LTS is looking or 3-5 years | 18:14 |
| jds2001 | I was doing SIG status stuff for FES, and it looked dead to me. | 18:14 |
| VisBits | Who uses fedora that needs support for old versions though? Isn't that rhels job? | 18:14 |
| smooge | s/or/for | 18:14 |
| meGenius | are there any plans to change the cycle of fedora releasing?? | 18:15 |
| mizmo | who wants to use a 5-year-old desktop though? | 18:15 |
| mizmo | i could see 2 years.... maybe | 18:15 |
| VisBits | rhel6 will be pretty current | 18:15 |
| Devilment | I'm happy with the status quo of ~13 months | 18:15 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: again, rapid innovation happens in Fedora | 18:15 |
| rdieter | meGenius: no. | 18:15 |
| VisBits | Devilment, same. | 18:15 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: that doesn't lend itself to longer release cycles | 18:15 |
| jsmith | meGenius: I don't think we need any major changes to the develoment cycle. We may adjust from time to time to make it seven months (or possibly eight) should the need arise, but I don't see us moving to a much slower release cycle | 18:15 |
| stickster | The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously. | 18:16 |
| smooge | Most commercial places I have worked for do not want desktops to change for 3 years. Thats the general life period that it takes to get training together, support structures in place and initial investment in those things paid off | 18:16 |
| Devilment | I thought I'd raise the question so I can feed back to the person who was arguing for Fedora LTS | 18:16 |
| jsmith | meGenius: It's very hard to continue to push innovation with a slower release cycle | 18:16 |
| jsmith | Devilment: Thank you! We're glad you asked! | 18:16 |
| VisBits | i like this jsmith guy :) | 18:16 |
| VisBits | BH-Alex, LTS yes or no? | 18:16 |
| BH-Alex | No, we have RHEL and CentOS for that | 18:17 |
| VisBits | stickster> The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously. | 18:17 |
| VisBits | well said | 18:17 |
| meGenius | jsmith: most of the BIG innovations are happening from year to year, that's it 2 versions | 18:17 |
| sijis | a couple of months ago, there was an effort to meet with different SIG groups. honestly, i haven't kept up with it has there been other ones besides web and design? if not, is this expected to continue going forward? | 18:18 |
| jsmith | meGenius: In times past, that was the case... if you've paid attention to F12, F13, and the feature list for F14, I think we're changing that | 18:18 |
| EvilBob | I have seen no reason to justify the slowing of Fedora releases personally | 18:18 |
| jsmith | meGenius: I'm going to continue to push for *continual* improvement | 18:18 |
| stickster | sijis: That's a good question for jsmith -- but just to give a bit of background, the Board has held numerous meetings with different SIGs over the past few months. It's up to the current Board whether they want to continue that practice | 18:18 |
| BH-Alex | I have a small question: wouldn't LTS defeat the point of thr new unfrozen rawhide and increase load on Fedora devs, and reduce similarity to upstream with backports? | 18:19 |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: yes, very much so. | 18:19 |
| smooge | Point of Order please. Could people when asking questions puit a " QUESTION" at the front... its a little hard for me to parse out who is asking questions to the board and who is not | 18:19 |
| stickster | sijis: But I would encourage it, because it helps when the Board is aware of challenges of different Fedora teams, and participates directly in resolving them. | 18:19 |
| stickster | 1 smooge | 18:19 |
| smooge | oops that wasn't a point of order | 18:19 |
| EvilBob | By nature Fedora is a stress filled adventure, constant upgrades, and many like it that way I know I do. It's fun to see what we can break next. | 18:19 |
| caillon | sijis, I enjoyed them, fwiw. I'd be in favor of continuing to do so, actually. | 18:20 |
| jsmith | sijis: I want to continue to work with the SIGs, but as a board we need to decide the best way to interact with them. My general rule of thumb is "give them the tools they need, give them some mentorship, and then get out of the way" | 18:20 |
| meGenius | have you even thought about canceling the version system, i mean, pushing updates directly | 18:20 |
| jsmith | sijis: Obviously each SIG is different, and will require a customized response | 18:20 |
| jsmith | meGenius: It's been discussed, but I'm personally not a fan of "rolling releases" | 18:20 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: there needs to be some point where we produce installable media | 18:20 |
| VisBits | lets all use ubuntu | 18:20 |
| rdieter | meGenius: that's largely what rawhide *is* | 18:20 |
| jsmith | rdieter: Exactly. | 18:20 |
| EvilBob | If you want a rolling release there is arch linux available | 18:21 |
| sijis | jsmith: sure. i thought it was beneficial to hear what other groups are doing and what challenges/assistance they may need | 18:21 |
| mizmo | VisBits, um "awesome" suggestion | 18:21 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: and there are some changes that are major enough to not do to a live system | 18:21 |
| jsmith | sijis: True. I'll make a note of that | 18:21 |
| VisBits | mizmo, lol i was kidding, i dont like ubuntu at all | 18:21 |
| jds2001 | LVM1->LVM2 is a good example. | 18:21 |
| EvilBob | Fedora does not have to be for everyone. | 18:21 |
| mizmo | VisBits, phew | 18:21 |
| mizmo | :) | 18:21 |
| meGenius | EvilBob: nah! | 18:21 |
| VisBits | :) | 18:21 |
| jsmith | EvilBob: I agree... we can't be *everything* for *everybody*, or what we end up with is just average (or worse the lowest common denominator). That being said, I think we can be *most* everything for *most* everybody. | 18:22 |
| EvilBob | Just because someone else is "doing X and Y" does not mean Fedora should | 18:22 |
| jsmith | We *can* and *should* be a leading Linux distribution, which gives users and devs the tools they want and need | 18:22 |
| meGenius | jsmith: the spins can! | 18:22 |
| BH-Alex | As a developer (primarily C++, distributed computing), I have to use RHEL platforms in a supercomputing environment. While that's great, I love the freshness of Fedora, which is why I run it on all of my machines. Having an LTS support appears to me, as a user, to contradict the Fedora mission. | 18:22 |
| jsmith | (if not *the* distro, obviously) | 18:22 |
| VisBits | jsmith, exactly, i love fedora for being modern | 18:22 |
| VisBits | thats why i use it | 18:23 |
| EvilBob | We do things just a little different, and IMO better. Not perfect but better. | 18:23 |
| stickster | jsmith: And I would go further to say, leading in that space means we have the opportunity to solve problems that are common to "most everybody." | 18:23 |
| jsmith | meGenius: Very good point -- Spins are a creative outlet for those who want a slightly different experience | 18:23 |
| VisBits | Linux t61 2.6.33.6-147.fc13.x86_64 #1 SMP | 18:23 |
| VisBits | <3 | 18:23 |
| jsmith | EvilBob: We try not to let "perfect" get in the way of "better" | 18:23 |
| brunowolff | Note that the Spins SIG was (and to some extent still is) very close to totally failing. | 18:23 |
| jds2001 | brunowolff: what can we do to support that? | 18:24 |
| * jds2001 would like to be more involved there if not for a lack of time :/ | 18:24 | |
| VisBits | can we get native ZFS support in fedora :)? | 18:24 |
| jsmith | brunowolff: The board is happy to accept suggestions on concrete ways the board can help improve that | 18:24 |
| EvilBob | jds2001: +1 | 18:24 |
| jds2001 | VisBits: no | 18:24 |
| VisBits | :( | 18:24 |
| brunowolff | We need to get spin owners more involved. How to do that is an open question. | 18:24 |
| dgilmore | VisBits: when licensing is sorted im sure it will come | 18:24 |
| jds2001 | VisBits: licensing concerns :( | 18:24 |
| jsmith | VisBits: We work from upstream kernels... get it pushed upstream, and we'll have it | 18:24 |
| VisBits | whats the offending company? | 18:24 |
| jds2001 | dgilmore: i wouldnt hold my breath with current events. | 18:25 |
| jds2001 | VisBits: sun/oracle | 18:25 |
| BH-Alex | What about spins? I've tried to use revisor to make my own, but it's been broken since Fedora 10, despite submitting bug reports. What does the Spins SIG need, I might have somet ime. | 18:25 |
| Devilment | doesn't btrfs overlap with ZFS's functionality? | 18:25 |
| VisBits | jds2001, surprise surprise.. | 18:25 |
| ctyler | actually, patents as much as licenses in the ZFS case | 18:25 |
| brunowolff | I have a plan to better document roles to set expectations for spin owners and to hopefully make it easier to volunteer for the special roles of | 18:25 |
| brunowolff | lead and wrangler. | 18:25 |
| EvilBob | jds2001: I am hoping once I get settled in to my new place I will be able to be involved more in a lot of areas. | 18:25 |
| jsmith | brunowolff: Sounds great | 18:25 |
| ctyler | http://www.sun.com/lawsuit/zfs/ | 18:26 |
| jds2001 | EvilBob: yeah, $DAYJOB takes a ton of time for me, and I can't really hack on Fedora there unfortunately :( | 18:26 |
| brunowolff | It will be OK for F14 unless something happens to me, but I would prefer to be working more in other areas. | 18:26 |
| * smooge hates to say this but is lost on what questions are currently open before the board | 18:26 | |
| VisBits | BH-Alex, good point | 18:26 |
| EvilBob | smooge: Yup | 18:26 |
| mizmo | there's a ZFS question that just wrapped up | 18:26 |
| * stickster would think the Board should devote some time to thinking about the health and well-being of the Spins SIG. When I hear brunowolff say he wants spin owners to be "more involved" it gives me some concern. | 18:26 | |
| mizmo | and righ tnow we seem to be talking about helping Spins | 18:26 |
| jsmith | #info Please put the word QUESTION in front of any new questions to help us know when new questions have been asked | 18:27 |
| VisBits | QUESTION why is the sky blue. | 18:27 |
| EvilBob | smooge: this is less than fully functional, we need the middle of the road secretary method from days of old IMO | 18:27 |
| brunowolff | I mostly wanted to point out people shouldn't be proposing grand things for spins, when the whole Spins SIG might disappear. | 18:27 |
| jds2001 | stickster: +1, I've been watching from the sidelines and been concerned. | 18:27 |
| jsmith | VisBits: Chemistry | 18:27 |
| BH-Alex | QUESTION what is wrong with the Spins SIG currently? | 18:28 |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: lack of engagement, for want of a better term. | 18:28 |
| VisBits | jsmith, its actually physics | 18:28 |
| EvilBob | BH-Alex: From what I hear "Not enough Indians". lots of grand ideas and little in the way of getting it done. | 18:28 |
| BH-Alex | So would the Spins SIG benefit from a trimmed down mission, short-term? | 18:29 |
| meGenius | jds2001: i guess the spins are released on the basis of the self requirements not the public ones | 18:29 |
| stickster | jds2001: brunowolff: Spin owners provide an "official" Fedora release that's been approved by the Board. I think it's important that the results are successfully passing through a process that ensures the results work well. | 18:29 |
| smooge | Well I would like to say that A) We need to talk with them before we can say that and B) I would need to know who the members are | 18:30 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: not sure i parsed that. | 18:30 |
| dgilmore | QUESTION jsmith: How can i as a regular fedora contributor feel like i can take ownership of some task or segement of fedora. How are we going to make sure that contributors feel enabled? | 18:30 |
| EvilBob | stickster: How are we promoting the spins that are new and innovative along with the other spins that have been approved? | 18:30 |
| brunowolff | I talked to releng today and there will be a testing requirement for the GA release. | 18:30 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: First of all, they need to know what Fedora is and what it represents | 18:31 |
| meGenius | jds2001: someone may release a spin for - let's say - gaming. so he will add a number of packages for the game he plays not what people plays | 18:31 |
| EvilBob | One way as we all know to increase contributor base is to increase user base | 18:31 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Second, they need to have a support network -- people they can ask questions to, preferably in their locality and language | 18:31 |
| stickster | EvilBob: In part through set-aside areas in our talking points and other marketing materials. | 18:31 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: good point. How do we fix that? | 18:31 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Third, they need to feel their involvement is welcome and valued | 18:31 |
| meGenius | jds2001: the spin-makers should listen to people, there should be wishlist | 18:32 |
| BH-Alex | QUESTION: Aren't Spins just built from kickstart files? Why does it appear that a lot of resources are required to successfully produce a spin? From running cobbler and livecd-creator I've found kickstart to be wonderful and easy. | 18:32 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Fourth, we need to make it clearer both how they can contribute/participate/lead, and what the steps are to do so | 18:32 |
| * EvilBob is AFK again | 18:32 | |
| dgilmore | jsmith: great. now to make sure that we take the steps that way | 18:32 |
| * mmcgrath notes just yesterday it took 3 of us over an hour or two to track down a spin with a bad checksum. | 18:33 | |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: but putting it all together is hard. | 18:33 |
| brunowolff | QA is busy enough with the main spins (Desktop and KDE) that they can't test the other spins. The Spins SIG needs to do that. | 18:33 |
| Devilment | QUESTION: Not everyone is a coder, so may feel they cannot contribute back to the Fedora Project. How can we get non-coders more involved? | 18:33 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Well, obviously we need to take a step back and try to see things from the perspective of a new user/contributor | 18:33 |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: spinning the bits is trivial | 18:33 |
| jds2001 | Devilment: I don't know C to save my life :) | 18:33 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: Many of us have been using Fedora for so long that we don't remember (or want to remember) what it was like to get started | 18:34 |
| BH-Alex | jds2001: so if I understand it correctly, it's a manpower issue combined with a what-the-public-wants issue? | 18:34 |
| jsmith | dgilmore: We've forgotten what it's like to not know what to do or how to do it | 18:34 |
| rdieter | Devilment: there's plenty on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join not involving coding | 18:34 |
| dgilmore | Devilment: there is so much of fedora not at all involved with code we need to make sure that those sections are visable to all | 18:34 |
| meGenius | Devilment: i guess reporting bugs, suggesting feature .. etc.. | 18:34 |
| stickster | Devilment: Although our 'join' page is in need of some work, we do clearly indicate there's plenty of ways to be involved that are non-code related | 18:34 |
| brunowolff | The ks files need review. For example Dan Walsh wants to make a kiosk spin but currently is doing it in what we suspect is a bad way. | 18:34 |
| mizmo | Devilment, join the design team :) We post bounties specifically for brand-new contributors | 18:34 |
| jsmith | Design, docs, marketing | 18:34 |
| mizmo | Devilment, no coding required | 18:34 |
| mizmo | http://mairin.wordpress.com/category/fedora-design-bounty/ | 18:34 |
| brunowolff | But we don't have someone that can work with him to fix things up. | 18:34 |
| caillon | brunowolff, arguably, they should be doing that anyway. different spins look to provide different experiences. something which works as expected on one spin might be considered a bug in another spin. | 18:34 |
| jsmith | Contributor doesn't always mean coder | 18:34 |
| stickster | Devilment: Bug reports, documentation, translation, design, ... | 18:34 |
| ctyler | there's getting started as a user (straightforward) and getting started as a contributor (less straightforward) | 18:34 |
| dgilmore | jsmith: indeed. i get slapped in the face by that at times to remind me | 18:34 |
| jsmith | One thing I really want to push is some improvements to the website | 18:35 |
| stickster | jsmith: In fact, we happen to be approaching the third phase of a website redesign | 18:35 |
| smooge | Devilment, well there are a lot of places for non-coders (I am one of those). Design, QA, Ambassadors, proof-reading the Wiki.. there are lots of areas. However most of them are technical based versus social | 18:35 |
| jsmith | (More details to come... but in general, we need to do a better job of telling the Fedora story and how it meshes with the open source way) | 18:35 |
| jds2001 | jsmith: that's obviously on the docket :) | 18:35 |
| meGenius | jsmith: in fact, i want to see some imrpvments on the forums | 18:35 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: unfortunately, the forums are not run by fedora | 18:36 |
| jds2001 | but they have a trademark license | 18:36 |
| stickster | Phase one (F12) was the spins.fp.o site; phase two (F13) was the get-fedora* pages; phase three (F14) is the main www.fp.o page | 18:36 |
| meGenius | jds2001: so, you can create your owns, right?? | 18:36 |
| Devilment | could this stuff be mentioned on the anacoder installer screen? something like, "You don't have to be a programmer to contribute back to Fedora. See <url> for details." | 18:36 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: you can, there are trademark guidelines to follow. | 18:37 |
| Devilment | s/anacoder/anadconda | 18:37 |
| BH-Alex | QUESTION what would be the end-result of Spins SIG were disbanded? From looking at http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ downloads are low | 18:37 |
| Devilment | argh | 18:37 |
| stickster | meGenius: Yes, with some limitations. This is a question best asked on the advisory-board list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board | 18:37 |
| stickster | meGenius: Also check out http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains | 18:37 |
| meGenius | in fact, the forums with the current situation are not that helpful | 18:38 |
| mizmo | BH-Alex, downloads are low because the counter is reset every release | 18:38 |
| ctyler | BH-Alex: I don't think downloads show the full picture; some spins are duplicated heavily by those involved with them | 18:38 |
| mizmo | BH-Alex, those numbers don't reflect the F12 downloads which were quite large before we reset the counter | 18:38 |
| smooge | BH-Alex, probably some peeved off people who have worked very hard on it. | 18:38 |
| rdieter | meGenius: how so ? | 18:38 |
| sijis | the spins stats are just torrent downloads too, not direct download ones | 18:38 |
| meGenius | rdieter: a lot of times, duplicated threads are opened, for example | 18:39 |
| jds2001 | btw, some stats are at Statistics | 18:39 |
| stickster | meGenius: That sounds very similar to just about all forums I've seen. | 18:39 |
| smooge | meGenius, Forums take quite a bit of herding for that to not have that problem. | 18:39 |
| rdieter | meGenius: that happens everywhere, irc, mailing lists, forums. | 18:40 |
| dgilmore | meGenius: hard to control | 18:40 |
| meGenius | stickster: exactly! & that's why i guessed applying some changes to it | 18:40 |
| stickster | smooge: +1. meGenius: Have you considered talking to the forum admins and offering some help there directly? | 18:40 |
| smooge | meGenius, I have found it can become a full time job for 2-3 people per 'channel' on it | 18:40 |
| BH-Alex | It seems to me like Spins itself is problematic because of the difficulty to assemble the 'experience' -- wouldn't it be beneficial to have the Base Fedora install then have "profiles" (a list of packages provided by the spin-author) that can be made available? | 18:41 |
| * jsmith notes that we're at 40 minutse past the hour | 18:41 | |
| meGenius | smooge: i want to see a helpful problems solving directory | 18:41 |
| jsmith | Are there many more questions, or shall we move on to other board business? | 18:41 |
| ctyler | BH-Alex: part of the point of spins is that you can run them live, and can install them directly | 18:42 |
| BH-Alex | ctyler: is that true of all spins? | 18:42 |
| meGenius | a user can refers to it, before asking any questions in the forums or the irc channels | 18:42 |
| * jsmith can't type when his brain is in "Spanish" mode | 18:42 | |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: yeah, we havent done installable spins yet | 18:42 |
| stickster | jsmith: Judging by the way the channel has moved today (robust conversation), it may be difficult to get through a Board agenda here. | 18:42 |
| brunowolff | For the Spins SIG spins, they are all live. | 18:42 |
| jds2001 | i.e. just anaconda, no liveinst | 18:42 |
| jsmith | stickster: I'm thinking the same | 18:43 |
| ctyler | BH-Alex: I believe so. I think we need to re-examine the spin technology in the light of the "sudden overlay failure" issue (when run from USB, affecting SoaS particularly) as well as fedora-embedded/arm/mips/mini needs. | 18:43 |
| jsmith | #agreed Let's continue the Q&A for the remaining time, and cover other board business at next board meeting | 18:44 |
| BH-Alex | jds2001: sorry, I thought they were installable only, my mistake (I don't use Spins); Then couldn't it be [relatively] easy to make additional images to drop in alongside the base fedora image to make it live, making it easy to compose spins out of composite components? That would be useful with LiveUSB | 18:44 |
| jds2001 | BH-Alex: are yyou talking spin-kickstarts? | 18:44 |
| ctyler | BH-Alex: I think there's confusion here, all the spins are live. | 18:45 |
| dgilmore | this sounds like something more technical and less board related | 18:45 |
| jsmith | I've asked the board members to come prepared with some questions for me as well. | 18:45 |
| BH-Alex | jds2001: no, I am proposing extending the current system of mounting a single fedora-image as root to include multiple images (sort of like overlay) to composite spins, making it easier to make a Spin, thereby allowing more customization | 18:45 |
| jsmith | Board members, feel free to hit me with your questions :-) | 18:45 |
| smooge | dgilmore, I agree. We aren't going to micromanage here. | 18:46 |
| jds2001 | jsmith: what are you going to do to give us all ponies? | 18:46 |
| stickster | BH-Alex: ctyler: jds2001: The idea is worth discussing. Why don't we take the idea to the spins@ list for more discussions. | 18:46 |
| * stickster just totally wrote a redundantly redundant sentence there, sorry. | 18:46 | |
| brunowolff | Making custom spins is easy. I think that's a bit away from Spins SIG though. | 18:46 |
| mizmo | jsmith, i have a question that's very... different than the current ones and perhaps stupid | 18:46 |
| jsmith | jds2001: Great question.... I see Fedora (and operating systems in general) like ponies... You don't just buy a pony and forget about it. You have to feed it, clean up after it, and take care of it | 18:47 |
| mizmo | jsmith, is there real value in the number of t-shirts we produce? could we be doing something to provide more value for the $? | 18:47 |
| dgilmore | jds2001: everyone but cards fans | 18:47 |
| jsmith | jds2001: I hope that when my tenure is done, we can look back at all the ponies we've helped raise :-p | 18:47 |
| jds2001 | :) | 18:47 |
| mizmo | jsmith, i'm kind of an eco hippie and i feel really bad about the number of shirts, but maybe it's because i have so many. maybe most people dont | 18:47 |
| * mizmo owns up to the bizarroness of the question | 18:48 | |
| jsmith | mizmo: I'm open to suggestions. I think the t-shirts fill two important purposes -- they give something tangible for participants to take home, and it serves as marketing | 18:48 |
| rdieter | mizmo: or swag in general, but I figure t-shirts are the biggest $$ item at the moment ? | 18:48 |
| dgilmore | mizmo: perhaps we can do a plant a tree for me/give me a t-shirt option for events | 18:48 |
| jds2001 | jsmith: seriously, given your background, are you going to encourage increased usage of F-Talk by contributors? | 18:48 |
| mizmo | dgilmore, i really like that idea | 18:48 |
| jsmith | mizmo: That being said, there are probably other things we can consider | 18:48 |
| jds2001 | t-shirts are something like $6/each iirc | 18:49 |
| jsmith | mizmo: When we do create t-shirts, it may make sense not to tie them to one particular meeting or date | 18:49 |
| mizmo | i kind of like the idea of virtual swag too | 18:49 |
| stickster | mizmo: Virtual swag interestingly ties into spot's idea for contributor karma | 18:49 |
| mizmo | spot has suggested this before, but something like levels or badges you earn through your work | 18:49 |
| jsmith | mizmo: So instead of branding them with "FUDCon Zimbabwe 2020", we can simply brand them "Fedora" | 18:49 |
| mizmo | stickster, exactly lol | 18:49 |
| jsmith | mizmo: That decreases waste and allows for better reuse | 18:49 |
| smooge | I look at it as something different. If we sold the shirts we could make more money to spend on FUDcon | 18:49 |
| mizmo | jsmith, yeh i think that's a good idea too | 18:49 |
| Devilment | Fedora, the MMORPG ;) | 18:50 |
| jsmith | jds2001: Yes, I encourage Fedora Talk in cases where it makes sense.. Voice communication is one important tool | 18:50 |
| mizmo | smooge, yeh... maybe shirt sales could fund contributor plane trips - | 18:50 |
| stickster | smooge: Interesting point. Shirt sales to pay for FUDPub food? | 18:50 |
| ctyler | mizmo: otoh, I think shirts have value in identifying with the community and spreading our marketing message. I think they carry a lot of value for their cost. | 18:50 |
| mizmo | smooge, all the time in the logo queue i have folks asking if they can sell shirts and other materials with our logo, why cant we | 18:50 |
| jsmith | jds2001: There are obviously places where voice leads to less transparency, which we want to be careful about | 18:50 |
| stickster | mizmo: Mainly because we have no place to *put the money*. | 18:50 |
| mizmo | ctyler, but theres some of us who go every year - i must have at least 15 fedora or fudcon shirts | 18:50 |
| jds2001 | jsmith: exactly | 18:50 |
| smooge | mizmo, stickster Red Hat for the first 5 years was paid for by swag sales. We were a company that sold you a T-shirt and gave you a Cdrom. | 18:50 |
| * stickster points to archives where this has been discussed repeatedly :-) | 18:50 | |
| stickster | Let me take a second and frame the issue here | 18:51 |
| mizmo | stickster, i know, maybe accepting $ is getting off track, but i think in some part tshirts are kind of wasteful | 18:51 |
| smooge | stickster, I will look at them. sorry I didn't meant o bring up old dead business | 18:51 |
| * stickster aborts framing the issue | 18:51 | |
| jsmith | spot, rdieter: Do you have a question for me? | 18:51 |
| mizmo | and if they're not organic shirts.... | 18:51 |
| stickster | mizmo: It's an issue worth considering! | 18:51 |
| smooge | mizmo, you have never seen my kid who had been depressed for me being away for a week go crazy with his Fedora shirt. He wears it to school as "Thats what my Dad does" | 18:52 |
| * stickster thinks we're not tied to t-shirts or any other kind of swag. | 18:52 | |
| spot | jsmith: well, i did, but lots of people beat me to mine. :) | 18:52 |
| mizmo | i think whenever we produce something we should think about how it's going to die if that makes sense | 18:52 |
| jsmith | spot: Fair enough :-) | 18:52 |
| * spot is not an original thinker today | 18:52 | |
| jsmith | mizmo: I agree... let's not focus so much on the short-term that we don't loose the long-term perspective | 18:52 |
| stickster | er, s/loose// [sic] | 18:53 |
| * dgilmore wants all organic swap within 5 years | 18:53 | |
| jsmith | Doh! Told you I couldn't type | 18:53 |
| rdieter | jsmith: for some background, what first brought you to use/contribute-to fedora, and prior to becoming fpl, where was most of your interest in fedora? | 18:53 |
| dgilmore | /sswap/swag/ | 18:53 |
| dgilmore | i fail | 18:53 |
| stickster | dgilmore: When we can have all organic laptops, we'll really be cooking. | 18:53 |
| mizmo | dgilmore, it totally fits our values i think | 18:53 |
| * jds2001 buys dgilmore an organic hard drive to put his swap on :D | 18:53 | |
| jsmith | rdieter: Good questions... I started using Linux around the RH 4.2 / 5.0 time frame. | 18:53 |
| jsmith | rdieter: And I was lucky enough to have an employer that encouraged me to learn it well, and gave me plenty of time to do so | 18:54 |
| dgilmore | jds2001: as long as it has a soy based ink cubs logo on it | 18:54 |
| jsmith | rdieter: When Fedora was born, I continued on as a user, but wasn't much of a contributor | 18:54 |
| jds2001 | dgilmore: nah, it'd have a cardinals logo | 18:54 |
| jsmith | rdieter: I'd post bugs from time to time and try out the betas and follow the -test list, but wasn't really a contributor | 18:55 |
| jsmith | rdieter: Over time, however, I started to get involved in the docs project. I'd done some work with DocBook and publishing, and wanted to help contribute | 18:55 |
| jsmith | rdieter: stickster then tricked me into coming to my first FUDCon in Raleigh | 18:56 |
| jsmith | rdieter: That's really what energized me to be a more active participant | 18:56 |
| stickster | I'm sometimes crafty that way. | 18:56 |
| jsmith | rdieter: From there, dgilmore and jcollie encouraged me to help with Fedora Talk, and so I got into the infrastructure a bit | 18:57 |
| rdieter | more like trickster | 18:57 |
| jsmith | The rest, as they say, is history | 18:57 |
| stickster | rdieter: ;-) | 18:57 |
| jsmith | rdieter: Good one... | 18:57 |
| mizmo | bwahaha | 18:57 |
| jsmith | Based on my own experience, I hope we all take the time to help others have that same sort of "ah ha!" moment | 18:58 |
| meGenius | excuse me, but, do the board members have a salary for being board members?? | 18:58 |
| stickster | meGenius: No. | 18:58 |
| stickster | meGenius: The FPL is a paid position at Red Hat, whose duties include chairing the Board. | 18:58 |
| meGenius | stickster: i see! | 18:58 |
| stickster | Some Board members, elected or appointed, are paid employees of Red Hat, but are not paid to be on the Board in particular. They do it to better serve the Fedora community and to help make a difference through active leadership. | 18:59 |
| jsmith | #info Just about out of time... any last-minute questions? | 18:59 |
| mizmo | meGenius, i work on the Board for the pleasure of serving you, not for buckazoids :) | 18:59 |
| jds2001 | and there are several members that are not employed by red hat, both elected and appointed. | 18:59 |
| meGenius | mizmo: thank you :) | 19:00 |
| mizmo | meGenius, youre most welcome :) | 19:00 |
| spot | wait, then why am i getting paid in those anonymous envelopes? | 19:00 |
| BH-Alex | QUESTION can we get a 2-sentence summary of what happened? | 19:00 |
| stickster | jds2001: Thanks, I just erased my next lines because you said it faster. :-) | 19:00 |
| jsmith | BH-Alex: "of what happened"? What happened with respect to what? | 19:00 |
| smooge | spot, because you are the person we have to bribe to keep our jobs | 19:00 |
| mizmo | spot, ssssh that's the pony prank funds | 19:00 |
| BH-Alex | With respect to the result of this meeting | 19:01 |
| jds2001 | i think it went really well. | 19:01 |
| mizmo | BH-Alex, I'm gonna do a blog post summary but it'll be longer than two sentences hehe | 19:01 |
| jsmith | BH-Alex: Yes... I'd be happy to do that. The entire log will be posted as well | 19:01 |
| BH-Alex | okay thanks | 19:01 |
| mizmo | BH-Alex, it'll be on planet.fedoraproject.org later | 19:01 |
| jsmith | mizmo: Thanks! | 19:01 |
| mizmo | jsmith, my pleasure | 19:01 |
| stickster | BH-Alex: I think this meeting was an interesting experiment. Mainly it was intended to let the community get more directly participatory in a Board meeting, and to give Jared a chance to say howdy to people. | 19:01 |
| * jds2001 should do a blog summary too | 19:01 | |
| jsmith | The shorter version is this: We experimented with a completely open IRC board meeting, and had the Q&A first. | 19:02 |
| jsmith | It was also a chance to let people get to know me a bit better, as well as other members of the board | 19:02 |
| jds2001 | how do we determine if this experiment was a success or failure? | 19:02 |
| meGenius | do you take into consideration what other ditros do?? | 19:02 |
| BH-Alex | This highly resembled a City Hall meeting in my local town. Which is interesting. I guess it's working. | 19:02 |
| mizmo | i have to say the logs are going to be really hard to follow | 19:02 |
| jsmith | meGenius: We certainly keep it in mind, but we chart our own course. | 19:02 |
| mizmo | up to 4 discussoins interweaved at any given time | 19:02 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: one of the four foundations is First | 19:02 |
| jds2001 | meGenius: we lead, not follow. | 19:02 |
| ctyler | mizmo: need AI thread-rewriting sw :-) | 19:03 |
| stickster | mizmo: I agree. I think the Board will need to do something a little more structured for these meetings to stay sane and develop actionable work. | 19:03 |
| jsmith | OK... I'm going to go ahead and end the meeting | 19:03 |
| mizmo | ctyler, lol yes. and it has to be smarter than my brain cuz right now it's smokin' | 19:03 |
| mizmo | stickster, i want a queuebot! | 19:03 |
| jds2001 | hehe | 19:03 |
| * mizmo steals pony prank funds back to build a queuebot with | 19:03 | |
| jsmith | #action Board to discuss open format in next board meeting, and decide on plan of action for next IRC meeting | 19:03 |
| Devilment | hasn't there been Fedora town hall meetings in the past? | 19:03 |
| stickster | Devilment: Not in this format, with no moderation or queue. | 19:04 |
| meGenius | mizmo: i guess so too! | 19:04 |
| jsmith | Devilment: Yes, they happen quite often... just in a bit different format | 19:04 |
| jsmith | #info Last call | 19:04 |
| jsmith | Going once... | 19:04 |
| jsmith | Going twice... | 19:04 |
| jsmith | ... Gone! | 19:04 |
| jsmith | #endmeeting | 19:04 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!