Meeting:Community Architecture 2010-06-21

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Roll call

Max, Ian, Mel, Karsten

Topics

spevack quaid, ianweller, mchua_afk: ping -- when everyone is here, we'll start 12:59
* spevack is in no particular rush. though I have famsco in 1 hr 12:59
ianweller hi 12:59
quaid ok, I'm just translocating to somewhere good for a phone call :) 13:00
ianweller i am almost using all of the tags on both of my desktops. what is happening 13:00
quaid tags? 13:00
ianweller quaid: have you seen the awesome window manager? 13:00
... nick!mchua_afk -> mchua 13:02
* mchua back 13:02
* ianweller front 13:02
* mchua left 13:02
* ianweller side to side 13:02
* mchua right, to balance out a bit 13:02
* ianweller upside down 13:02
* mchua inverted 13:02
mchua spevack: Are we here, or on the phone? 13:02
spevack we're here 13:03
spevack just waiting on quaid 13:03
mchua oh, okay. 13:03
ianweller there are certain people who make friday-list enjoyable. colby hoke is one of those 13:04
spevack hmm, i think we'll get started at :10 regardless 13:07
* mchua nods 13:07
mchua I think quaid thought we were calling, from his last message. 13:07
* spevack texted quaid 13:07
quaid oi 13:09
spevack hey quaid sorry if you thought we were on the phone 13:09
quaid now I'm confused 13:09
quaid oh, I'm not 13:09
quaid it's IRC! 13:09
quaid ok 13:09
* quaid puts down his phone, slowly 13:09
quaid I wasn't dialed in yet, just being slow 13:09
* quaid *ready* 13:10
spevack how's everyone doing? 13:10
quaid ianweller: I haven't seem awesome yet except maybe a screenshot 13:10
spevack Our agenda: 13:10
quaid spevack: pretty great 13:10
quaid happy summer everyone 13:10
spevack * General chatting for a few mins 13:10
spevack * July travel 13:10
spevack * Goals 13:10
spevack * Your topics, if any 13:11
ianweller * Ian is rebuilding commarch.usersys so expect downtime 13:11
* mchua has a update dump she can post here whenever it is time 13:11
spevack right -- so ianweller is out of RDU from Wed - July, so we were thinking to rebuild commarch.usersys this afternoon and tomorrow, if that's ok with quaid and mchua 13:11
spevack based on the doc ianweller wrote up last week 13:11
* mchua nods, sounds awesome. 13:11
quaid go for it 13:12
spevack ok. 13:12
spevack so expect that box to go down sometime after this meeting 13:12
quaid you all gots the mad skills, but I'll be on backup for any "oh, yeah!" moments :) 13:12
spevack thanks quaid 13:12
spevack mchua: how are you? exhausted, feeling a big weight off your shoulders, etc? 13:12
ianweller quaid: :) 13:12
* mchua grins 13:13
mchua Oh, I am feeling *good.* 13:13
mchua https://www.redhat.com/mailman/private/community-architecture-list/2010-June/msg00104.html 13:13
mchua I was going to dump that in channel but that seems more prudent, it's my full update. 13:13
mchua I'm backlogging myself outta POSSE and expense reports right now. 13:14
spevack mchua: I've put my estimate for your expense reports at $7k. 13:14
spevack quaid and ianweller can choose the over or the under 13:14
spevack whoever is closest gets $1 USD 13:14
quaid mchua: you getting used to spending money yet? 13:14
ianweller do you actually want a guess? 13:15
mchua I shudder at the expense-reports task, I think it will take me a full day to balance the books. 13:15
spevack ianweller: yes 13:15
mchua quaid: More used to it, yeah. :) Better able to handle it... well, I think I'm learning. 13:15
spevack mchua: take the time to get it done, and get it done right. Remember that helping manage that money is as important a part of your job as anything else. 13:15
* mchua nods. I definitely want to keep doing it / do more of it, because it's something I do want to get good at. 13:16
* quaid lets ianweller guess first 13:16
ianweller quaid: damn 13:16
ianweller um 13:16
mchua I'm not particularly good at it yet. Not disciplined enough. 13:16
mchua But learning! Learning! 13:16
ianweller spevack: you said $7k? 13:16
spevack yeah 13:16
ianweller this is for both POSSEs? 13:16
spevack it's for all expenses Mel needs to file. 13:16
ianweller hmm 13:16
ianweller i'm gonna go with $7.3k 13:17
spevack mchua: definitely no worries taking Wednesday for yourself. Take Friday too if you want it :) 13:17
mchua we'll see :) 13:17
spevack quaid: you doing well? good weekend and all? Did the US Open tourists invade all the way up to Santa Cruz? 13:18
* mchua is getting caught up on POSSE followup before the POSSE meeting tomorrow afternoon, and finishing expense reports before taking Wednesday off; everything else will be 2nd half of the week. 13:18
quaid spevack: probably, but I only use backroads on the weekend and didn't notice 13:19
quaid not like when the AMGEN Tour takes over downtown :) 13:19
quaid then I reckon I choose the under-$7k 13:19
spevack so while we're talking about Santa Cruz, 13:19
spevack http://commarch.usersys.redhat.com/wiki/FY11_VIP_travel#July_2010_team_meet-up 13:19
quaid oh, yeah 13:19
spevack Looks like this is all pretty much together. Ian decided over the weekend that he's better off coming back to Raleigh for that week though, 13:19
quaid let's capture that data in a note before you shutdown the box .. 13:20
spevack which simplifies our hotel needs. 13:20
quaid rly? ok 13:20
spevack quaid: yeah, i'll capture that page before we take the box down, so that updates can continue 13:20
quaid how about mchua, do you know when you are arriving? 13:20
* quaid takes a copy for himself so he can work on stuff today 13:20
mchua quaid, I can come in as early as you'll tolerate me - I can rental-car a day or two, then return it when spevack and ianweller arrive so spevack can rent the More Other Cheaper I Am Over 25 car. 13:20
mchua quaid: I'd like to sit down and work with you on POSSE CA, and wrap my head around summer coding and where it'll tie in to our edu strategy over the next school year and summer (USA) '11. 13:21
quaid mchua: s'ok, I'm ready to sponsor folks here for any timeframe 13:22
quaid we can work it out when you are doing your JUly booking in the next 24 13:22
* mchua nods, I'll try to get here early enough so that we can have all of monday for that sort of thing 13:22
mchua but yeah, later, when I book 13:22
spevack ok, so we'll move that discussion to the list to sort out the rest. 13:23
mchua no need to take up max & ian's time with it too :) 13:23
spevack but at least we all now know that it's happening 13:23
spevack which was important to get settled. 13:23
mchua do we know what we want to do during that time? Or is that another 'later' topic? 13:23
spevack mchua: well, funny you should mention that.... 13:23
* mchua wants in n' out, but is otherwise fairly flexible ;) 13:23
spevack because the rest of our meeting today is to discuss our goals 13:23
ianweller +1 13:23
spevack if y'all could pull up the note i sent on thursday 13:24
spevack to the commarch list 13:24
ianweller ah, the goals list? 13:24
spevack Subject "Team Homework for Monday" 13:24
spevack I'd like to discuss some of the stuff I wrote in there. 13:24
spevack I view our team as operating on multiple-year story arcs, and not ones in which we have all new goals every 12 months 13:25
spevack Thus, a number of these things are continuations of larger tentpole goals that we set a year ago or more. 13:25
spevack But it's an attempt to clarify what we consider most important in these areas between now and next February 13:25
spevack and also to note in writing that we've already been doing some of this stuff since March 1 of this year. 13:26
spevack So, I listed 4 questions: 13:26
spevack i'd like to hear anything that folks have to say about those topics, or whatever. 13:26
* spevack listens 13:26
quaid I have an ack'd problem with being able to write SMART goals, fwiw ... 13:27
* mchua has never *tried* to write SMART goals, so may have a problem too. 13:27
quaid just sayin' 13:27
spevack i guess these are pseudo-smart goals 13:27
spevack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria 13:27
quaid well, we want to be somewhat alignable with all those SMART-dorks :) 13:27
spevack quaid: well, i think the 4 discussion topics can let us discuss that stuff without adopting all the SMART baggage. 13:28
ianweller i have never seen the SMART criteria before 13:28
spevack (1) What parts of this do you like? What parts do you think are too vague, or need to be more firm? 13:28
spevack (2) How do you feel about scope? Are we biting off more than we can chew? 13:28
spevack (3) Which sections do you see yourself as having primary accountability for, either because you already do, or because you'd like to? 13:28
spevack (4) Does this set of goals inspire you, and make you feel like we're providing value to our communities and to Red Hat? 13:28
quaid ianweller: yeah, corpspeak 13:28
spevack quaid: forget corptalk. what did you think as you read that page over? 13:28
quaid yeah, so my goal washiness makes me want to start at the bottom of the list. 13:28
spevack quaid: the floor is yours 13:29
quaid k 13:29
* mchua queues up comments while listening to quai 13:29
* mchua sticks 'd' at the end of last sentence 13:29
quaid I'm feeling that we are getting in to a stride with a few items that really need that time 13:29
quaid education in particular 13:29
quaid and that continues to be inspiring and keep me up at night 13:29
quaid (you know, double-edged sword) 13:29
quaid I'm ... having that feeling that we want to be kicking off a new meme .. 13:30
quaid but maybe I'm spoiled :) 13:30
quaid and we can leave that for a bit, to work on the ones we have already 13:30
spevack quaid: can you elaborate. What do you mean? 13:30
quaid so .. summary ... yeah, inspiring and pretty clear value to RHT and communities 13:30
quaid spevack: I've been getting used to us, as a team, being able to kick up 2 to 4 brand new cool things a year 13:31
quaid POSSE, TOSW, TOS, textbook, etc. 13:31
spevack quaid: ah, you wonder "where's the brand new stuff" 13:31
quaid is that datanommer? 13:31
quaid spevack: yeah, sosueme 13:31
spevack  :) 13:31
quaid I'm always aware that we don't have _room_ for a shiny new thing 13:32
quaid but I want to start envisioning on it and stuff -- maybe that's for the July meeting 13:32
spevack well, I think the summer coding stuff is new, certainly with the approach you've taken. 13:32
spevack quaid: sure 13:32
quaid + staff additions for new idea pool. 13:32
quaid heh, I guess summer coding has lost its shine for me, I forget how fresh that is :D 13:32
* quaid not negative, just you know .. shine doesn't look so shiny inside. 13:32
* spevack understands 13:32
quaid so I'll answer 3 and pause ... 13:33
quaid I think I'm still on summer coding, I added some stuff there recently if you all haven't seen 13:33
spevack quaid: i've seen you express interest in taking the lead on textbook 13:33
quaid we went ahead and put "sponsors required to provide staff to help run the program" in the summer coding sponsorship request, which I hope isn't a deal breaker. 13:33
quaid yeah, someone has to do 0.9 by the fall 13:34
quaid so I'm just thinking of pressing on that release in particular 13:34
spevack i appreciate you taking that initiative 13:34
quaid leaving the longer term picture still open 13:34
quaid sure, and I like it -- that's a fun project :) 13:34
quaid I want to NOT ask gregdek about his plans there for now, to keep him from answering too soon 13:35
quaid it's a good time on TOS list to work on this, I think 13:35
quaid finally, TOSW 13:35
quaid I want to start ramping back up a bit on time there, see if i can pull it from summer coding now. 13:35
spevack i agree -- I'll save my textbook thoughts for the TOS list also :) 13:36
quaid POSSE Cali 2011 planning :) 13:36
quaid </> 13:36
spevack quaid: how do you feel about some of the more specific things that i tried to put under TOSW goals 13:36
spevack there's both internal and external components to that 13:36
quaid right 13:37
quaid I'm not positive about how we get cloud and virt in there ... 13:38
quaid unless that means getting others who are selling that to use TOSW references? 13:38
spevack quaid: I see it as a couple of things: 13:38
spevack (1) Ensuring Cloud SIG doesn't die, and getting Smooge and Justin Forbes to be the real leaders there 13:39
* quaid cool on internal, needs to figure out a roadmap to get all that done, but those are all things I continue to agree with. 13:39
spevack (2) Getting SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, EXTERNALLY to use deltacloud successfully and tell that story. 13:39
... nick!stickster_afk -> stickster 13:40
quaid I don't see the intersection with TOSW-the-handbook? My feeling is that it's too techy already, it doesn't need more cloud virt foo. 13:40
spevack quaid: i guess I see it as an application of TOSW? 13:40
mchua for the record, mmorsi (who works on deltacloud for RHT) was at the POSSE panel at FOSSCon on Saturday, and is interested in the edu space. 13:40
spevack Applied TOSW 13:40
quaid ah!! 13:40
quaid sorta like I've failed to with SPICE and had less-than-moderate success with FreeIPA? 13:41
mchua So y'all might ping him as a bridge, and see if you can use that as an excuse... maybe the workshop thing with alolita makes a good excuse? 13:41
quaid spevack: if it's about intersecting with RHT engineering, I give up before I start. 13:41
mchua There's plenty of interest in cloud from academia, both from a "we, uni sysadmins, want this for our own infrastructure" side and the "we want to teach our students how to do this stuff" side. 13:41
spevack quaid: I'd rephrase by saying "we've tried this in a few different areas with zero-to-mild success and we're going to try again" 13:41
quaid until the PRD includes "Step 0, consult TOSW" 13:42
spevack quaid: i don't think it has to be. I think it can be done in the Fedora space 13:42
spevack 2 goals: 13:42
spevack (1) Cloud SIG does stuff with Smooge and jforbes leading, and community opportunities 13:42
spevack (2) Spacewalk guys, who are already using EC2, integrate deltacloud into that. 13:42
mchua I would actually be keen on doing that, but I'd need to offload some of my other stuff for it... if I could get an intern to wrangle POSSE infrastructure code dev and buffer a lot of individual POSSE profs' classes, I think I might be able to. (And if I don't take on Summer Coding for another 6-8 mo while this starts rolling.) 13:43
* mchua has been wanting to do something that forces her to interface with RHT engineering and actually pull out / learn tech chops for a bit. 13:43
quaid is smooge hesitant? 13:43
* spevack nods, realizing that balancing all this work, and staffing, are key next steps 13:43
spevack i don't think he is -- i think he's just waiting for opportunity 13:44
quaid spacewalk I think are independent enough, we can reason with them ... 13:44
quaid virt folks, most of them *wrote* TOSW 13:44
quaid so ,,, 13:45
quaid maybe this is more about Fedora Marketing to get visibility to the tech? 13:45
mchua I can totally help from that side. :) 13:45
quaid the projects are run fine, they are being noisy, etc. but they need a marketing campaign on the community side 13:45
spevack quaid: you've hit on a key sort of thing. 13:45
quaid that isn't at all like the e.g. RHEV campaign 13:45
spevack that I want to call out 13:45
spevack "use TOSW as a starting point for Red Hat and Fedora project marketing efforts" 13:45
mchua Honestly, I"m trying to get myself *out* of POSSE so the profs can run it, I'd really like to do cloud - if we can score jadudm a course release to be the POSSE wrangler this coming school year, I think it might actually work out well. 13:46
spevack The idea of PROJECT MARKETING 13:46
quaid yep 13:46
mchua rather than product marketing? 13:46
mchua acathrow was going on to me about that, how we can't do project mktg. 13:46
spevack Brian Stevens always says "no one knows Red Hat is the driving force behind KVM/Deltacloud/$INSERT EMERGING TECH HERE" 13:46
spevack mchua: exactly 13:46
* mchua was sort of confused. And a little sad. 13:46
quaid check this out I sent to marketing last night:http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/marketing/2010-June/013124.html 13:47
spevack quaid: and i see this as an opportunity for US to try to do some strategic project marketing, where TOSW is the umbrella CommArch initiative under which it fits 13:47
spevack cloud/virt make it strategic to the rest of the business 13:47
spevack quaid: too suit-like?  ;) 13:47
quaid spevack: ok, now this sounds interesting :) 13:47
quaid no, I think this is the time to start to give FMarketing som real stuff to do 13:47
spevack ah, the joys of communication! 13:47
quaid we have more than a few genuine people with genuine marketing skills now looking to do more than feature profiles :) 13:48
spevack ianweller is thinking "i'm glad i get 4 years of college before this is my life" 13:48
quaid ianweller: if you are smart, make it 8 years. 13:48
quaid you get a chance to learn lots of evil politics in grad school that may serve you later, and a PhD is a good thing :) 13:48
quaid so that link above ... 13:49
spevack i like it 13:49
quaid I put it to a Chief Security Officer with marketing skills who just intro'd himself that SELinux needs a project marketing campaign :) 13:49
spevack quaid: this is exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at -- you've independently come up with the same thing. 13:49
quaid also, this can happen concurrently with writing a new chapter Marketing the open source way 13:49
spevack Focused project marketing campaigns that bring leadership, brand value, etc. to Fedora and/or RH 13:49
* quaid nods 13:49
quaid spevack: convergence! 13:50
quaid ah, my new shiny thing 13:50
quaid I feel so much better 13:50
mchua ianweller: your latest blog post, btw, is BRILLIANT. 13:50
* mchua has a brainspew, can haz go? 13:50
ianweller mchua: no problem :) 13:50
spevack mchua: why does ianweller get all the credit?  :) 13:50
spevack quaid: can you yield to mchua for the last 10 mins before famsco? 13:50
mchua spevack: you could lolcat the picture of your Cy hat. :) 13:51
quaid go 13:51
mchua but mad props to the both of ye. 13:51
mchua Ok, I skipped to #3 because I've been thinking mostly about "what does the Mel do?" for the past 2 weeks. 13:51
mchua between, y'know, insanity. 13:51
mchua So.... 13:51
spevack I *catalyzed* and *delegated*, lol 13:51
mchua spevack: you're a manager! :D 13:51
mchua It should be obvious by now that I <3 education. :) What may be less obvious is that I want to look at education stuff *outside* Fedora, because I think it's the hammer we use on all our projects, which are not all nails. 13:51
mchua It's a fine start, but we need to go beyond it, which is why I'm trying to teach other folks in Fedora how to do the working-with-schools scaffolding I first tried out with jadudm's Allegheny crew. That's what I'll be doing in Fedora over this coming school year... I hope to *not* need to be a class liason for 2011-2012, but this year has a few in the pipeline. 13:51
* spevack nods 13:51
mchua Namely, jadudm's 2 classes, HCI + frosh seminar... some of the POSSE Worcester profs doing intro Python programming, which will inform our "become better for Python hackers" strategy (I hope), and we're getting tech writing + journalism from POSSE RIT, and *possibly* some help with FEL. 13:52
mchua The other alumni from this summer are longer-term, we'll have to wait for them. 13:52
mchua And if I get an intern for the school year, this is what they're going to be helping me a *lot* on. (coughcough). Note the disciplinary diversity. 13:52
spevack we'll get you rrix 13:52
mchua Next school year (2011-2012), as other Fedora folks take those primary liason-type roles on, I want to shift my focus to making this reproducible in other, non-Fedora communities and non-NA geos (APAC, cough cough) - generalize it to tosw. 13:52
mchua spevack: hooray! Yeah, he was extremely helpful with the Allegheny folks, he's very cross-disciplinary, another good writer... he'd do well with all the classes we have coming up this school year. 13:52
mchua Next school year (2011-2012), as other Fedora folks take those primary liason-type roles on, I want to shift my focus to making this reproducible in other, non-Fedora communities and non-NA geos (APAC, cough cough) - generalize it to tosw. 13:52
mchua I also want to lead us into the academic space proper, which is why it's good I'm paneling at FIE, and I am trying to get us a paper at SIGCSE, and working on co-authoring a few (very tentative, very early) grant applications for POSSE and other projects we're doing - impact studies and such. I'll help other Fedora/RHT people get into this space along with me as best I can. 13:53
mchua In particular, ianweller, I'm going to be looking at folks like you and other students in Fedora-land who have to write papers anyway, and people already doing research like the Duke folks (need to follow-up with them) and Diana, and seeing where that leads. 13:53
spevack mchua: so, how well is some of this dream/motivation that you've written down captured in how our team's goals are written? 13:53
mchua Those two things are, I believe, what will give us enough capacity to reach our POSSE alumni count goals in that timeframe. 13:53
* mchua waits a bit for folks to read 13:53
spevack I worry that we're not properly encapsulating your vision into a 1, and then 2-3 year plan. 13:53
mchua spevack: Um... well, I think? I mean, it's not really a 2-3 year plan as written, is the thing 13:53
mchua and it doesn't have owners, which is something that I've inserted into my rambling above. 13:54
mchua but the goals as written were what got me to write this implementation-ish braindump, so they are, I think, good. 13:54
spevack ah, ok 13:55
mchua ...though I have 0 criteria other than "uh, it feels right!" when trying to determine whether goals are "good." 13:55
mchua I want infrastructure for POSSEs made ASAP - fall semester intern project, maybe, since I want to open registration by January - and I want the trademark this summer if at all possible, before we run any more (because they're going to be international this fall, and I don't want any problems). 13:55
mchua I want POSSE run by professors ASAP; we can do this iff we get jadudm a course release. Backed by kwurst for logistics advising, hellis for research advising, and ritsteve for marketing advising, he'll do great. This would free me to do, say, cloud-stuff. 13:55
mchua TOS community stuff sounds right to me; I plan on building that community up, though anything outside what I've just described is all fuzzy and hand-wavy and we'll make it up as we go along. ;) I have ideas for how to admin our funding, but you'll see those on the list soon. 13:55
mchua ianweller has the scholarship, that's set. 13:55
mchua I'm not thinking about the TOS textbook at all. quaid is. I'm happy to let him do that. :) Ditto summer coding, though I'm trying to keep an eye on both. 13:55
* spevack nods 13:56
* ianweller goes to look at the scholarship SOP to see if there's anything he needs to do in the next two months 13:56
mchua Basically, I do education as part of *everything* I do, so I'm actively trying to reach out of the stuff that everyone *knows* is edu 13:56
spevack ianweller: doubt it 13:56
mchua ianweller: nope 13:56
spevack mchua: sounds good 13:56
mchua ianweller: not 'till fall 13:56
ianweller hurray 13:56
spevack mchua: sounds like you're in a good place. 13:56
mchua spevack: so stuff like "cloud" and "orientation" fall into that category, imo... and offloading POSSE to the TOS community as rapidly as possible will give me room to do it. 13:56
mchua I think. 13:56
mchua rrix will help. :) 13:57
spevack mchua: once you're here in RDU, you'll be a big part of orientation 13:57
* mchua is a bit nervous about that, but excited! 13:57
* mchua can run around and be excited in front of new hires. 13:57
mchua \o/ 13:57
mchua EOF 13:57
spevack It's really quite useful to know that every two weeks you get to deliver a talk that is more or less a similar end message, but that has the ability to try out new ideas with no real fear 13:57
spevack it's a great staging ground for talks that eventually might be public 13:58
* mchua grins. Yeah, part of it is also "I want to get over my total terror of speaking." 13:58
spevack Jerry Seinfeld has a great bit about how a study shows that people's #1 fear is public speaking and #2 is death. 13:58
spevack His punchline: 13:58
spevack "that means if you have to be at a funeral, you'd rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy" 13:58
ianweller lawl 13:58
quaid too bad we don't have NHO in MTV 13:58
spevack yeah 13:59
spevack ok guys -- I have to move to famsco's meeting now. 13:59
quaid something about summer coding ... it's not really The Future IMO 13:59
quaid at least, not as it is envisioned now 13:59
spevack hope people felt like this was a pretty good 50 minutes, at least in making sure we're all kind of on the same page with stuff 13:59
quaid it has use, and is a nice tool, but it doesn't scale the way POSSE does 13:59
spevack we'll continue the conversation, obviously 13:59
quaid spevack: +1 13:59
mchua +1, though we didn't get to hear from spevack and ianweller 13:59
ianweller spevack: real fast -- should i add the stuff i'm doing with brand guidelines to the goals list under fedora project? 14:00
ianweller the rest of it seems sane 14:00
mchua spevack: when shall we come back to this? later today? tomorrow? next Monday? 14:00
spevack ianweller: yeah! 14:00
spevack mchua: later this week, rolling into next monday if we need to 14:00
* ianweller is going to send out a downtime notice real fast, and downtime will start at 3 pm EDT 14:00
ianweller if that's ok with everybody 14:00
* ianweller copies infra's downtime message 14:00
spevack ianweller: first thing we'll do is one final backup of the machine. 14:01
spevack quaid, mchua, ianweller -- thanks for your time! 14:01

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