Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080514

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quaid <meeting> 12:03
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo hanging out -- roll call and opening howdies, then congratulations and all that on another fine release, the kittens are safe once again 12:03
quaid I is still here 12:03
jmbuser JohnBabich 12:04
Sparks EricChristensen 12:04
jsmith JaredSmith (present but brain-dead) 12:04
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quaid glezos is here too I rekcon 12:05
stickster PaulFrields 12:05
quaid so, howdy, everyone 12:05
quaid congrats on another fine gold ISO to fall from the heavens 12:05
* jmbuser is still downloading the LiveCD 12:06
stickster Hear, hear 12:06
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quaid ok, then 12:07
jmbuser +1 12:07
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo deciding stuff -- What is Docs focus? Can we handle a switch to focus on Fedora contributors first? What does this mean? Are people interested in this? Would they be upset if other active resources were to focus on contributors instead of end-user docs? 12:07
quaid ok, you may say ... wtf is this? 12:07
jmbuser  ?? 12:07
quaid but folks around here have been talking about trying to resolve our own contributor problems before user problems 12:08
quaid that is, there is a world of help for users that is nearly good enough for all they need, and we are but a drop in that bucket, Fedora brand or not. 12:08
jmbuser true 12:08
quaid but the contributors are a finite group with a finite set of problems that we could really help give a better life. 12:08
stickster So this is something I feel strongly about. 12:08
quaid so, and I am repeating a suggestion from someone else, we could just decide to pull away anyone who is interested in talking this situation 12:09
stickster Let me take off my FPL hat... and put on a purely Docs guy hat. 12:09
quaid forget all the guides and all that for a while, etc. 12:09
quaid stickster: go ahead, please, as the suggestor :) 12:09
stickster I don't want to interrupt rudely, sorry 12:09
stickster But by the same token, I want to take the blame for this idea because it may be... controversial. 12:10
stickster I feel that we in Docs have been laboring a LONG, LOOONNNNG time to get some basic user documentation done. 12:10
stickster And that documentation already exists in so many places. 12:10
stickster The licensing on those other docs elsewhere keep us from just using them, so we are basically *FORCED* to do a "NIH" (not invented here) thing and redo everything from scratch ourselves. 12:11
stickster What we *really* need to do, if you ask me -- 12:11
* quaid askes 12:11
stickster is to concentrate on writing documentation that is going to help other people contribute to Fedora. 12:11
quaid aka fix our own leaky roof, shod our own children 12:11
stickster Right, and not just for Docs, but for other groups as well. 12:12
stickster You might think to yourself, that this sounds really like cleaning up the wiki and doing a good job tying things together there. 12:12
stickster And I'm saying -- well, yes. 12:12
stickster We have always been of two minds about the wiki 12:13
stickster But the truth is, with the single sign-on coming, the wiki will be easier than ever for new contributors. 12:13
stickster Get an account, start editing the wiki right away. 12:13
stickster And that's all well and good 12:13
stickster But the REAL audience for Fedora is the CONTRIBUTOR audience. 12:13
jmbuser +1 12:13
stickster We need to empower them to GET INVOLVED. 12:14
stickster To work on PACKAGING. 12:14
stickster On MARKETING. 12:14
stickster On WEBSITES/INFRASTRUCTURE. 12:14
stickster On DOCS. (!) 12:14
stickster Those are the people that keep Fedora alive. 12:14
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stickster The contributors are our audience. 12:14
quaid I meant he bigger roof, foshure! 12:15
jsmith +1 12:15
stickster We love users, and are overjoyed we have milliions of them. 12:15
stickster But users in and of themselves do not power FOSS just through using it -- contributors who give something back, do. 12:15
stickster That could be as little as filing one bug -- meaning any user can be a contributor. 12:15
quaid I think we'll find that after we do this, the wiki will work right and we can shepherd new contributors to work within some of the docs we've defined 12:15
stickster But only if he knows *how* to do it. 12:16
stickster quaid: I think it's going to help a lot. 12:16
quaid content == screencasts, written, translated 12:16
quaid my recommendation is ... 12:16
* couf here 12:16
stickster There's also another audience to think about -- not just the hobbyist, but the independent software vendors (ISVs), companies, and so on 12:16
quaid couf: catch up on that, eh? :) 12:16
stickster We need to help them get involved in Fedora too. 12:16
quaid right, this helps them. 12:16
couf quaid: busy :) 12:16
kital good 12:16
quaid ok, so, two ideas I propose: 12:17
stickster So what I'm recommending is that we ask ourselves for any piece of Documentation, "Is this something that's unique to Fedora?" 12:17
stickster If it's 90% not, then the document should be, well, 90% shorter. 12:17
quaid stickster: but we use that filter anyway ... 12:17
quaid and that is more stage 2 12:18
quaid where it is obvious that, how to work within Fedora, that is 90% Fedora specific 12:18
* quaid holds back proposals for more discussion ... 12:19
* couf does a +1 to the general suggestion 12:19
* stickster waits to see if he put everyone to sleep. 12:19
jmbuser stickster: I see the value in what you are saying 12:19
jmbuser Teach people to fish instead of making fish sandwiches 12:20
couf the one thing about this is, we can't know everything about everything in Fedora 12:20
stickster couf: Well, that goes for all Linux too. Thus my argument against writing big, general guides. 12:21
couf so that would mean tutoring, mentoring from people of thoose groups, and they've goot heaps of load too 12:21
stickster It very well may be that what I'm proposing comes down to the Docs team turning into a very specific, very targeted 12:21
stickster force for scouring the new wiki, and organizing it before we take on any tasks beyond the Release Notes and the Installation Guide. 12:21
stickster And both of *THOSE* could easily turn into online living things as well I suppose. 12:21
quaid I've been going around saying for the last few weeks that I want to be the new Wiki Gardener 12:22
couf right 12:22
stickster And if people want to do guides, maybe we should think about moving those off to fedorahosted.org to develop as independent projects 12:22
quaid with all that the metaphor implies 12:22
stickster And eliminating the Docs CVS. 12:22
* stickster waits for the explosion.... 12:22
couf wtf? :) 12:22
quaid and one idea is to have a regular set of gardening hours, maybe around our meeting time for example, where anyone interested helps prune, plant, and compost 12:22
* jmbuser loves the wiki 12:22
stickster jmbuser: You'll love it more when it's Mediawiki. 12:23
quaid we have to be honest 12:23
quaid outside of the relnotes 12:23
quaid the conversion is just not worth it 12:23
quaid or rather, it hasn't been worth it much 12:23
quaid Installation Guide the one exception 12:23
quaid usually requiring heroics 12:23
quaid (and it stays in XML :) 12:23
Sparks I'm confused. If we cater to the developers then we help built the project. That's good. If we alienate the users then we are developing a project only for ourselves. That's bad. 12:24
stickster I feel a sense of guilt that I pick the RelNotes and the IG as the two "important" docs when I have worked quite a bit on both. 12:24
couf yeah, for some stuff it feels like overkill 12:24
quaid with Transifex, we are freed of CVS 12:24
stickster But with or without me, users really rely on those. 12:24
Sparks I'm not sure how much help the developers need. 12:24
stickster The Relnotes more than the IG. 12:24
stickster Sparks: It's not the *established* developers, it's the *new* developers who need help. 12:25
stickster New package maintainers. 12:25
* jmbuser thanks stickster for his last-minute rescue effort on the IG 12:25
stickster New bug triagers... 12:25
stickster New platform users 12:25
quaid +1K 12:25
Sparks stickster: Okay. I'm good with that. But I think we should provide that documentation, too. 12:25
stickster Sparks: Dropping guides we can't ever finish != Alienating users 12:25
Sparks But what are we telling the n00bs that come to Fedora looking for help? 12:26
stickster After all, we have millions of users, and really good press apparently, without them. 12:26
stickster Sparks: That's exactly it -- our wiki should be a more robust, well-tended garden of docs. 12:26
stickster Sparks: We should be able to point them to wiki pages that tell them what they need, in easy terms. 12:26
quaid so let me ask the white elephant question 12:26
quaid how is l10n in MW? 12:26
quaid can we hook it to Tx somehow? 12:27
couf wow, that's the killer question 12:27
jsmith Ugh... 12:27
* jsmith falls over dead 12:27
quaid well, we dunno 12:27
quaid maybe we *can* version it in git and generate PO/POT 12:27
jmbuser MW = MediaWiki 12:27
quaid yes, sorry 12:27
jmbuser Tx = Transiflex 12:27
mmcgrath pong 12:28
quaid s/flex/fex/ 12:28
stickster quaid: This is a good question. I asked mmcgrath to pitch in his opinion on L10N in MW 12:28
quaid aye 12:28
* mmcgrath is here to give opinions. 12:28
stickster And speak of the... well, angel 12:28
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stickster Is there any possibility that people will be able to translate stuff in the wiki in some way? 12:28
mmcgrath So I think we should do it the same way mediawiki and suse does that. I'm not 100% sure on technical implementations but its basically this... 12:28
mmcgrath Every language gets its own wiki instance. 12:28
jsmith wiki != CMS 12:28
stickster +10 for reusing other working ideas. 12:29
stickster jsmith: True enough. 12:29
mmcgrath something (this I'm not sure of) sits in the middle and makes it so if you go to a page that hasn't been translated, you get the english version. 12:29
mmcgrath I'm not sure how it all works. 12:29
quaid oh, well 12:29
stickster Where "working" != "hacked together tearfully" 12:29
quaid that's different in a sense 12:29
quaid that is how it is presented to the world 12:29
quaid but how do they translate? 12:29
stickster Right, how does the engine work. 12:29
mmcgrath but there are working examples somewhere. And I've had the lines of communcation opened to the suse guys before, I'll just go ask them. 12:29
quaid do they open the page and write in new content? ugh 12:29
stickster This is something we may have to have someone research. 12:30
mmcgrath quaid: ahhh, the actual translation? I have no idea. 12:30
stickster That doesn't need to be mmcgrath. 12:30
quaid also 12:30
quaid for the engine part 12:30
stickster It's certainly a good question. 12:30
quaid we could conceive of replacing it or hooking it to Tx 12:30
couf yeah, I'm afraid it's as current wiki-translation is going 12:30
quaid couf: explain please? 12:30
couf look at a page, copy it, translate it, ... 12:30
couf same as for Moin 12:31
mmcgrath 12:31
mmcgrath 12:31
* jmbuser sees mmcgrath is speechless 12:31
mmcgrath <nod> its my understanding thats how it works. 12:31
couf if not, wikipedia translations would be way more complete in a sense 12:31
stickster http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Translation_Guide 12:31
mmcgrath I'm not really taking sides in the whole wiki vs cms thing for translations just because I'm conflicted enough about it. 12:31
stickster Yup. 12:32
quaid look, in the end 12:32
quaid wiki content is strings with markup 12:32
mmcgrath I mean, if people want to do it, I guess I say let them. I'm not sure how they decide what gets translated. 12:32
quaid what we need 12:32
quaid is someone to commit to writing a parser 12:32
quaid MW wiki => PO/POT 12:32
quaid if it doesn't exist, it should 12:32
quaid and then imagine exposing MW via Transifex ... useful,w hat? 12:33
stickster http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/txt2po 12:33
mmcgrath po/pot with mediawiki I'd think would be possible but I don't know if it exists. 12:33
stickster ^^^ 12:33
mmcgrath at least not in a way that mediawiki can then read in and present to the user. 12:33
stickster Note mediawiki is a supported flavor 12:33
mmcgrath something to look at then. 12:33
stickster And pootle -- that source project -- is a vigorously supported and thriving project, not old & busted. 12:34
mmcgrath stickster: it looks like that only supports mw markup -> po. I don't think that mediawiki can then read that po back in and present it to the user. 12:34
mmcgrath I could be wrong though 12:34
couf po2txt :) 12:34
stickster They have both ways, I think 12:35
couf if that can get automated, that seems doable 12:35
stickster couf: +1 txt2po, po2txt 12:35
quaid wow, it looks like the instructions are, "translate the page" with no tools, so it means manually pulling strings into another tool 12:35
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stickster quaid: You're talking about the OpenSuSE page> 12:36
stickster  ? 12:36
quaid yes, sorry 12:36
stickster right. 12:36
quaid but in essence, that is what people do for the big wikipedia, right? 12:36
stickster See above. There is an automated tool for txt2po and po2txt. 12:36
quaid I see that now 12:36
stickster It handles mediawiki! :-) 12:36
stickster (supposedly) 12:36
quaid but is anyone using it with a WebUI for MW? 12:36
stickster So... worth trying. 12:36
quaid ok 12:36
couf mmcgrath: is there a way to xml-rpc data out of MW and back in? 12:36
mmcgrath but I don't see how mediawiki will handle it is all. 12:36
quaid we need to look at that on the side 12:37
couf or something like xml-rpc 12:37
stickster I would think that Transifex could do this. 12:37
mmcgrath couf: yeah, the api is pretty rich. I've even heard of fuse implementations to actualy mount mediawiki though I've not played with it. 12:37
quaid mmcgrath: something needs to inject the strings back in the MW files/database tables, and do it by language 12:37
mmcgrath well, transifex's implementation is "check out, alter, commit" 12:37
mmcgrath it does that with existing tools. 12:37
mmcgrath we might have to write our own tool for transifex to do it right. 12:37
stickster mmcgrath: Right, but I think it's built modularly enough that back end support for something else could be plugged in. 12:37
quaid we would likely want to put the files in SCM 12:37
stickster mmcgrath: yup 12:37
couf in other words: tools are pretty much in place, we just have to tie'em together 12:37
stickster mmcgrath: we're in violent agreement :-) 12:37
quaid or could, that is, so we can version them 12:38
quaid ok then 12:38
stickster quaid: Actually, MW versions. 12:38
mmcgrath possibly... I'm still not convinced mediawiki can read po files though. 12:38
quaid mmcgrath: let's try a bit of quid pro quo 12:38
stickster So we don't necessarily need an additional SCM. 12:38
mmcgrath since mediawiki gets all of its information from a database. 12:38
mmcgrath "quaid pro quo" 12:38
quaid mmcgrath: will you work with us 12:38
jmbuser This could be another great Fedora contrib to upstream 12:38
stickster mmcgrath: Right, it might take something external to do the conversion and inject the page change into MW. 12:38
quaid mmcgrath: to make a new project to get this to happen, owned by Infra 12:38
quaid mmcgrath: it is our condition on being able to move a bunch of work to the wiki *and* be the gardeners to keep it a tame and wonderful place 12:39
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mmcgrath quaid: I can help but not for a while, I've got a month of work to catch up on (because of the change freeze + release). I'm pretty well booked until the end of June is all. 12:39
quaid otherwise we are forever pushing guides out from there and into XML just so we can translate the things 12:39
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quaid not sure on timeframe 12:39
mmcgrath after that though I'll be happy to help. If you can find someone else in infrastructure that can do it sooner I'll make sure they have the access they need 12:39
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stickster We ought to see if we can put out a call for volunteer help in the Fedora community to kick this off. 12:39
* quaid has to be honest, DocBook is more for translation ease than for anything that a wiki cannot do "good enough" and be better at getting contributions 12:40
stickster I love DocBook too which is why I think any project we want to have in DocBook should just become a thriving entity in fedorahosted.org. 12:40
quaid mmcgrath: OK, general support for the idea of kicking off a potential upstream tool to plugin to the wiki is probably the most important, v. actual labor 12:40
couf I'll try and get some L1ON-input on this 12:40
quaid stickster: +1 to that! 12:41
stickster Especially since we can have a toolchain using an in-distro tool, Publican, to do the work. 12:41
quaid couf: that would be good; it's too late for a GSoC project :( 12:41
* jmbuser thought the same thing 12:41
couf yeah, that's a bummer 12:41
stickster At worst this might make for a BRILLIANT FUDCon hackfest topic. 12:41
quaid let's reorg this thing! 12:41
jmbuser Yes! 12:42
quaid so, can I lay out some decision points to make it clear we are agreed or not? 12:42
jmbuser Proceed 12:42
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quaid i. FDSCo agrees to turn attention on enabling *all* Fedora contributors? This is not done as a mandate/order but a statement of intent for the project. People can and should continue on whatever content is of interest to them and only pitch in where they want. 12:43
* quaid continues 12:43
mmcgrath  :) 12:43
* couf feels a new wave coming :) 12:44
quaid ii. Work on managing the wiki as "gardeners" with one person designated to make the project happen (the Wiki Gardener), and make that a tame and happy place for all, however that has to happen. This includes resolving MediaWiki to work with Transifex and whatever. 12:44
stickster As for (i.), 100% agreed... but we need to make this a clear point on the ML, so volunteer contributors don't wonder why old guys aren't chomping at the bit to work on "new" guides over the next N months. 12:45
quaid iii. Push all DocBook XML guides out to be stand-alone projects on fedorahosted.org to use whatever toolchain they want; we can continue the docs-common tools (within fh.o?) and decide to swap in or make publican optional. 12:45
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jsmith stickster: +1 12:45
stickster oops, I interrupted, sorry :-\ 12:45
quaid iii.b Decide the best fate for the release notes in a separate discussion; cf. docs-common as well 12:45
stickster agreed 12:45
quaid um, I think that's it 12:45
quaid did I miss anything? 12:45
quaid (in summary, that is) 12:46
couf I don't think so, all good 12:46
quaid then we can do a quick bit of "last discussion" and voite 12:46
quaid so, to proceed 12:46
jmbuser s/voite/vote 12:46
stickster with respect to my previous point... I was trying to say... 12:46
quaid stickster made a bit of discussion there, +1 to making it clear on mailing list and all over 12:46
stickster a message to say "Here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it" beyond the meeting minutes, etc. 12:47
quaid jmbuser: perogativeo f the leader today to just let typos fly :D 12:47
stickster But 'nuff said 12:47
quaid stickster: +1, also blogs, and direct chats 12:47
stickster disco 12:47
* glezos discussed Tx with the MW guys at FOSDEM 12:47
quaid it's also part of the "we're about to fuck with your wiki, heads up!" campaign 12:47
quaid glezos: ooh?! 12:47
stickster glezos: Cool, hope you saw my pitches up above ;-) 12:47
jmbuser One refinement - a landscaping crew with a chief, instead of a wiki gardener 12:48
glezos there is a sketchy mechanism for PO extraction, but only for the UI. AFAIK, the content can't be exported into POs. I might have missed something though. 12:48
stickster Now that we know OpenSuSE would also benefit from this, there's some cross-distro goodness for you 12:48
stickster I'm thinking, maybe I should email Zonker to find out if they have any ideas and/or resources to contribute. 12:48
jmbuser hack the wiki, hack the wiki 12:48
couf stickster: +1 12:48
quaid jmbuser: explain your distinction? 12:48
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quaid jmbuser: in wiki gardener v. wiki landscaper 12:49
stickster glezos: Are you talking about a bulit-in MW capability? 12:49
jmbuser quaid: wiki gardener sounds like a lonely job 12:49
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jmbuser chief garderner with apprentices is better 12:49
glezos stickster: yes. Not sure if a proper PO-extraction layer exists for content. 12:50
* Sparks volunteers to be the guy on those cool stand-up lawn mowers 12:50
stickster glezos: Have you seen pootle's tools? 12:50
stickster http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/txt2po 12:50
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quaid jmbuser: in my mind, it is mental preparation for being the one who gets all the hot compost landing on them when the other subprojects let fly 12:50
glezos stickster: yes. I was talking about Mediawiki in particular. Not just a converter, but a built-in capability in MW to extract and manage PO files. 12:50
jmbuser stickster has left the building 12:51
glezos BTW -- I would *love* to work on something like this at some point in the future. 12:51
jmbuser ...or not 12:51
* glezos still reading the log 12:51
stickster Aw crap. 12:52
* stickster remembers Ctrl+R means something very specific in xchat-gnome. 12:52
glezos mmcgrath: with the GSoC, I'll be working on abstraction layers in Tx to make it able to receive and submit content from various tools (eg. submit via https or even plain email instead of ssh) 12:52
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mmcgrath glezos: excellent. 12:52
stickster glezos: Right -- would it work for Tx to check out POT by using something like pootle's txt2po against a MW revision, then doing po2txt and pushing it back into MW? 12:52
stickster err.. well, you get my drift. 12:53
jmbuser undoubtedly :-) 12:53
glezos stickster: The challenge would be to implement a PO manager inside MW. After that, Tx can take those PO files quite easily. 12:53
stickster glezos: never mind, you just answered my previous question. 12:53
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quaid ok, we are adrift 12:54
quaid to the points above, a quick show of hands: 12:54
* stickster gets out of the way of the rudder. 12:54
Sparks +1 12:54
quaid i. FDSCo agrees to change the order of things thusly ... 12:54
stickster +1 to i, ii, and iii. 12:55
couf +1 12:55
jmbuser +1 to all - change is good 12:55
quaid whee! 12:55
quaid +1 from me 12:55
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 107 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 106 normal] 12:55
couf and thats ratified :) 12:55
stickster So unanimously we've pretty much changed the nature of the Docs Project for the future. 12:55
quaid but wait, there's more! 12:55
stickster Pretty good for an hour's work 12:55
quaid glezos, jsmith 12:55
glezos +1 12:56
stickster You can cut a tin can with them! 12:56
jmbuser genzu knives? 12:56
jsmith +1 12:56
quaid then that is unanimous unless I'm stupidly forgetting someone 12:56
couf quaid: bob 12:56
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quaid EvilBob is not here but here? 12:56
jmbuser EvilBob: ping 12:57
couf well Sparks jumped in his place, so .. :) 12:57
quaid Sparks: I saw you comment a bit earlier ... 12:57
quaid heh 12:57
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quaid ok, yes, I see :) 12:57
quaid just making sure we adequately 12:57
quaid addressed the idea of continuing content work 12:57
quaid (e.g. Sec Guide :) 12:58
quaid ok, rock on 12:58
quaid two minutes 12:58
quaid elections? 12:58
* quaid looks at the pages 12:58
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo - two minutes for election discussion 12:58
* stickster makes motion to push this until next week 12:58
quaid that's what it seems to be like 12:58
* stickster selfish because he's about to get on the phone :-\ 12:58
* stickster backs away 12:58
quaid and the channel has a turnover 12:59
jsmith I second the motion 12:59
quaid ok, let's push this topic to the next meeting 12:59
couf yep, push back 12:59
jmbuser +1 12:59
quaid and catch up on #fedora-docs to refresh ourselves on the elections :) 12:59
quaid and be out of here in 5 12:59
quaid 4 12:59
quaid 3 12:59
quaid 2 12:59
quaid 1 12:59
quaid </meeting> 12:59

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