Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080730

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quaid <meeting> 12:05
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - roll call, greets 12:05
* quaid is here :) 12:05
* ianweller 12:05
* jsmith is here 12:06
* Sparks here 12:06
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quaid agenda is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 12:06
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G I'm here :) 12:06
* ke4qqq is here 12:06
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-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - Wiki namespaces discussion 12:07
stickster quaid: I just added something to that agenda 12:07
quaid ok 12:07
quaid http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00092.html 12:07
quaid that is the RFC currently under discussion 12:07
G quaid: might be something to pull out my original e-mail to docs/websites too 12:08
* ianweller wonders whether we should say "Documentation Project" or "Docs Project" now that we're moving to spaces/full names 12:08
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G quaid: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00015.html - the original namespace discussion 12:09
* quaid was replying onlist too 12:09
quaid ianweller: people say Docs, like it or not, so I gave up on that a bit ago; but worth standardizing, yes :) 12:09
* ianweller wonders how google-friendly that is 12:10
quaid G: yes, but that is a bit farther down in the agenda 12:10
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G quaid: errr the 'namespaces' got me, oop :0 12:10
quaid ianweller: hard to say; techie people seem to always use 'docs' but documenters prefer 'documentation' 12:10
quaid G: yep, sorry :) 12:11
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - wiki page naming discussion 12:11
quaid that's what I meant :) 12:11
* ianweller googles for "fedora documentation" and sees if he gets DocsProject. 12:11
quaid ok, so are there any questions about the RFC? 12:11
ianweller we know why, and we know where to move things. how to do it though? 12:12
quaid one thing before that 12:12
quaid is everyone comfortable with Docs making this decision and putting it forward as done to the contributor community? 12:13
Sparks +1 12:13
quaid v. sending an RFC to f-devel-l :D 12:13
ianweller no. we have an RFC, we need a policy that contributors can follow, i think 12:13
G quaid: I disagree with mass transclusion btw 12:13
G (of content pages) 12:13
ke4qqq quaid: +1 12:13
ianweller i don't think what we have now is in policy state 12:13
quaid G: you mean, my idea of building a guide is mass transclusion? 12:13
quaid ianweller: right, but ... 12:13
ianweller and, to the new user, i think it's a bit confusing 12:14
quaid the biggest point of contention is going to be the stupid naming 12:14
quaid +1 that it is *not* a policy 12:14
G quaid: correct 12:14
quaid and needs sto be 12:14
ianweller that's a good "ok here's how we're *moving* it" page, but we need something that says "this is how the wiki is organized, deal with it" 12:14
ianweller yeah 12:14
quaid G: is it that much of a performance hit difference? 12:14
quaid I thought each section was separate in the db anyway 12:15
quaid ianweller: but are you comfortable with us making all that policy and not taking argument about it? 12:15
ianweller yes. 12:15
quaid I mean, the Packaging Committee has a process to get changes approved; this would be like that, don't just bitch on a mailing list but bring a real proposal. 12:16
quaid stickster: how about you? 12:16
G quaid: I think the difference is, it can pull an entire page in one query, where as for transclusions it had to keep making queries 12:16
quaid G: ok 12:16
stickster Sorry, there is a conversation going on here that I am trying to shut out so I can catch up here 12:16
G I may be wrong, I havn't had my morning coffee and I'm just running off memory :) 12:16
quaid g: it might have been a mis-guided solution to a non-problem; definitely we should set a policy on that, maybe a limit on the # of sections to transclude? 12:17
quaid G: ouch, sorry, it _is_ early there 12:17
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stickster quaid: OK, the RFC is to use "real languge" for page titles, and categories to organize pages ? 12:17
G quaid: I think the proper solution would be to say: split the document in three bits or so (to avoid it getting too large) 12:18
ianweller G: split the document in, say, 20KB bits, so that it's unlikely for pages to go over 32KB? 12:18
G "General Policies", "RPM Issues", "Technical Policies" type thing 12:18
quaid stickster: ok, here's the question I asked you: 12:19
* ianweller still doesn't know what sort of performance hit transcluding lots of pages takes, and wonders if #mediawiki knows 12:19
G ianweller: I dont consider the 32KB rule as a general policy 12:19
* stickster apologizes, too many concurrent inputs :-) 12:19
quaid "Are we OK with Docs making the policy for wiki structure, including naming, and pushing it forward as "done until you formally help change it"?" 12:19
G the 32KB warning comes from some browsers not been able to cope with it iirc 12:19
ianweller G: well, right. so in my mind, anything larger than 32KB is right out 12:19
quaid ianweller: but you said Packaging_Guidelines needs to be one page :) 12:20
G ianweller: I don't know of any browsers these days that have such a problem 12:20
stickster quaid: +1 on that. 12:20
quaid stickster: ok! :) 12:20
stickster quaid: The day belongs to those who seize it. 12:20
* ianweller is a hypocrite again, damn! 12:20
quaid carpe seizem 12:20
* ianweller goes to get more tea 12:20
quaid ok, then 12:20
quaid just to recap: 12:20
stickster ianweller wants to eat his cake and have it too :-D 12:20
quaid * we agree we are empowered to do this 12:20
G quaid: I disagree with transcluding it, I'd favour logical splitting :) 12:20
* ianweller goes back through his head and rehashes out what he wants 12:21
quaid * we need to convert the Help:Wiki_structure to a policy page 12:21
stickster G: I think you can really do both at will. 12:21
stickster It's kind of a red herring issue. 12:21
G (It's currently 52KB so a split in two - General Packaging Guidelines, Technical Packaging Guidelines 12:22
quaid ok, that's later in the agnedna :) 12:22
quaid let's finish with page naming 12:22
quaid Ian's point on list about not splitting the P_G too small is noted/OK 12:23
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ianweller right now we already split P_G into different sections for specific languages, btw 12:23
quaid so, on naming 12:23
quaid an no Sub/Pages 12:24
quaid all happy with that? 12:24
quaid I think we need a bit of list discussion, too, fwiw 12:24
G I disagree 12:24
G I have a technical arguement too that I just remembered 12:24
ianweller is the no Sub/Pages a soft limit, meaning we still have Artwork/Join? 12:24
ianweller G: mm? 12:24
quaid ianweller: not a soft limit IMO 12:24
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ianweller quaid: same here. /me wants no slashes ;) 12:25
ianweller except in non-main namespaces 12:25
G Legal have asked us, to make sure Legal/* is read only to everyone but people in the Legal group, Packaging/* is read only to people except in Packaging group, we can't just shut them out 12:25
quaid I want to see one or another method, and tightly enforced 12:25
quaid G: how do ACLs work? 12:25
G I proposed separte namespaces from them at inception but was told "ewww thats ugly" 12:25
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G *for them 12:25
ianweller G: can we ACL by category? 12:26
* ianweller presumes not 12:26
G quaid: Packaging/* 12:26
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quaid G: what about Packaging* 12:26
quaid and Legal* 12:26
G ianweller: nope, MW doesn't allow that type of call 12:26
quaid without the / 12:26
ianweller quaid: but then we might run into other issues. 12:26
G quaid: I wouldn't be sure, but I'd feel that was an ugly solution 12:26
quaid well, sure, if someone wants to write "Legally_thinking_about_open_source" they cannot 12:26
ianweller i *personally* think that namespaces could/should/must be used 12:27
ianweller for cases such as these 12:27
quaid ianweller: you mean 12:27
quaid Namespace:s 12:27
quaid not Name/Space 12:27
ianweller quaid: yes. 12:27
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ianweller i am not sure how people decided that Name/Space meant namespace :/ 12:27
ianweller (no offense to anyone) 12:27
quaid ianweller: ha! 12:28
G and you've got to consider that "Packaging:Foo" is going to have the exact same effect as "Packaging/Foo" 12:28
quaid ianweller: um, we had that term in general usebefore Mediawiki was born :) 12:28
ianweller quaid: oh ok. 12:28
quaid G: 'effect'? 12:28
Sparks In MW... What's the difference between Docs/Page and Docs:Page? 12:28
quaid Sparks: search is in specific namespaces 12:28
ianweller Sparks: you can decide to include/exclude certain Namespace:s in search. 12:28
G quaid: yuckyness in Category sorts etc iirc 12:28
quaid Sparks: we can reset the default, but that doesn't change it for existing users 12:28
ianweller G: can't you fix that? 12:29
ianweller potentially with wikibot? 12:29
ke4qqq quaid: yes but you can change default search 12:29
quaid ke4qqq: not for existing users aiui 12:29
G quaid: we can change it for existing users 12:29
quaid we _are_ going to change it, one time we hope 12:29
quaid G: oh, ok 12:29
G quaid: I said that during one of the other discussions 12:29
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quaid G: thx, I forgot 12:29
G quaid: but I'd perfer to hold off on that until we get the l10n wikis sorted 12:29
quaid here's my thinking then ... 12:30
quaid on ACLs 12:30
quaid if Legal needs a protected space, move it off the wiki 12:30
ianweller quaid: we tried pushing that to them at the beginning too 12:30
quaid if Packaging needs a guide that cannot be edited by the masses, move it off the wiki 12:30
ianweller since wikis are not made for ACLs. 12:30
Sparks quaid: If you start moving people off the wiki then how will anyone know where to look for inforamtion? 12:30
quaid Sparks: the wiki is not the sole source of info 12:30
ianweller but they certainly did not like that. at all. 12:30
G quaid: that in my opinion isn't a good solution 12:31
quaid Sparks: docs.fp.o/release-notes for example 12:31
quaid ianweller, G why? 12:31
quaid oh, they want the ease of a wiki but not have it be a wiki? 12:31
quaid get a CMS, I say 12:31
Sparks quaid: Yeah, which is one reason why I think people have ahard time finding information 12:31
ianweller yes. 12:31
ianweller quaid: hehe 12:31
ianweller of course! 12:31
quaid Sparks: the wiki needs to link to the rest of the world, too' we cannot put all in the wiki, it sucks too much for content management 12:31
G quaid: that sort of stuff changes frequently and a wiki is a good way to display such information 12:32
quaid G: it actually doesn't change that frequently 12:32
ianweller (should we get some people who work on Legal/* and Packaging/* stuff's input?) 12:32
G quaid: parts of the Packaging/* area have a bit of turnover I've seen 12:32
* ianweller just had the idea of shoving the packaging guidelines into docbook, in a repo on fedorahosted 12:33
* ianweller notes that that idea is *not* going to be popular 12:33
quaid G: if they are active, why cannot they watch the pages like the rest of us do? 12:33
quaid ianweller: if they need ACLs, maybe that is the best thing 12:33
quaid here 12:33
ianweller quaid: i think so. 12:33
quaid here's what I'm getting at: 12:33
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quaid we CANNOT make our naming decisions based on these corner cases 12:33
quaid that are leftover from previous bad decisions 12:33
quaid in the previous wiki. 12:33
quaid we CAN make an exception 12:34
ianweller agreed. 12:34
quaid and allow Legal/ and Packaging/ 12:34
G I think thats what we need to do really 12:34
ianweller (but only for now, imho) 12:34
quaid but, G, really, is it worth carrying on that travesty for all pages? 12:34
G for now anyway 12:34
G quaid: How about this: 12:34
ianweller there's a better solution, and we can decide on that with the respective name/space owners later 12:34
G * Allow Legal/ Packaging/ as exceptions for now 12:34
G * Approve Legal: Packaging: if they want it (but say it's an equally ugly solution) and recommend they incorporate stuff into the websites or documentation 12:35
ianweller +1 12:35
quaid +1, with the caveat that we can go get spot's input before entirely granting the exception 12:36
quaid (since spot is the dude leading both of those sections) 12:36
ianweller yes. 12:36
G * When the l10n wikis are put in, then change everyones default search to add those namespaces 12:36
G (and add the namespace then) 12:36
ianweller G: we need to i18n namespaces too, right? 12:37
quaid ianweller: it's just l10n, aiui 12:37
G no 12:37
quaid we use i18n to l10n the pages 12:37
ianweller well 12:37
ianweller what i mean is 12:38
ianweller change the name of the namespace into whatever it is for the respective language 12:38
ianweller just keep the same ID numbers in the database at the very least 12:38
G for most cases thats done, and it'd be a requirement of the l10n teams to do such a task before the wiki is created 12:38
ianweller excellent 12:38
G I've already discussed quite a bit of the implementation stuff like this with couf 12:39
quaid cool 12:39
quaid any more on this naming? 12:39
quaid do we think we have consensus here? 12:40
ianweller i think we're good. 12:40
G quaid: yeah, but we really need to look into the Legal/ Packaging/ stuff a bit more 12:40
quaid G: I know you mentally prefer Sub/Page, and I do think many people agree, but the l10n need in the end was a big persuader for me 12:40
ianweller then again, it's just the three (four?) of us talking about it, from what i can tell 12:40
quaid i.e., Artwork/Join has impedence mismatch with what that page actually is, Join_the_Art_project 12:41
quaid ianweller: carpe diem, etc. 12:41
G quaid: FreeDistribution is another one that uses ACLs on their subpage 12:41
* ianweller yawns 12:41
ianweller  ;) 12:41
G quaid: it's a case of, I think in most cases subpages look nicer 12:41
ianweller G: so should we change your proposal from Legal/* and Packaging/* to whatever happens to be in the HNP ACL at the moment? 12:41
quaid wtf is FreeDistribution? 12:42
G quaid: the Free CDs folks 12:42
G they ACL a couple of the pages 12:42
quaid I'd want to go to each group and find out why they need ACLs 12:42
quaid well, a couple can be just done manually, right? 12:43
G even Infrastructure have ACL'd pages 12:43
quaid the exception is where an entire set of content needs ACLs 12:43
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G quaid: correct 12:43
* G would really like to do away with HNP tbh, it's ugly 12:43
* ianweller would like to do away with any extensions we don't actually need (i.e., HNP) ;) 12:44
G it's an ugly solution to do something that mediawiki isn't designed for 12:44
G quaid: just sent you a /notice, don't know if you'll be able to read it, but if you can it's a list of the current ACLs 12:45
G ohhh forgot Licensing too, thats a big chunk 12:46
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quaid yeah, a few Foo/ exceptions is OK 12:47
ianweller with the mention that they shouldn't be exceptions, imho. 12:48
quaid mainly what I want is the general, open, edit-me content for contributors and users is a flat namespace, easy to know what to name, lots of categories 12:48
quaid oh, yeah! 12:48
quaid how about we create a bunch of stub category pages? 12:48
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quaid Category:Bug_Triage for example 12:48
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ianweller so, Category:Bug_triaging_stubs? 12:48
quaid i.e., at least one for each ProjectName/ we are replacing with the renaming 12:48
quaid and advertise that as the category to use instead of the old SubPage/Style 12:49
G quaid: in some cases they already have a similar category, it'd be best to send wikibot over them - like I did for the Docs pages and rename them 12:49
ianweller i'm not sure if this is relevant right now but how nim-nim has been doing things for fonts is that he's been using the Category: page as the main page for his SIG 12:49
quaid G: right, let's do all that 12:49
* quaid adds that to the wiki gardening tasks 12:49
ianweller which i recommend against using Category:s as starting points. 12:50
G ianweller: that imo isn't using the category page for what it's designed to do 12:50
ianweller G: yeah 12:50
quaid hmm 12:51
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quaid makes it easy, though :) 12:51
ianweller it does, but it's not what we want, i think. 12:52
ianweller some projects will want to do that, most won't 12:52
ianweller and we need to standardize it 12:52
quaid we can recommend against it? or make a rule, not sure 12:52
* ianweller would make it a strong recommendation against. 12:52
ianweller if not a rule 12:52
ianweller i'd say that's up to you guys to decide 12:53
quaid ok, so ... 12:53
G agreed, 12:53
quaid I think we've covered the top item on the agenda 12:53
ianweller in a record time of 53 minutes! :=o 12:53
ianweller  :-o* 12:53
ianweller  ;) 12:54
ianweller is someone logging/noting what we decided? 12:54
quaid ianweller: I like the idea of using the MW style guide as a basis, then noting the variations 12:54
quaid similar to what we do with GNOME Docs style guide, etc. 12:54
quaid ianweller: I'll take the summary task today :) 12:54
stickster heh 12:54
ianweller excellent 12:54
stickster quaid: Thanks 12:54
ianweller imho, people should be familiar with the wikipedia page naming guidelines *first* and then read our specifications 12:54
ianweller or, we can take wikipedia's and adapt them appropriately 12:55
ianweller quaid: iirc the next item on the agenda was namespace:s? or did we kinda sorta cover that 12:56
* ianweller was thinking maybe we should decide what should be the initial namespaces 12:56
quaid ianweller: yeah, we jumped over that, sorry 12:56
quaid but I think we can decide that 12:56
ianweller heh 12:56
* ianweller notes that Features: would be an important one 12:56
quaid hmmm 12:56
quaid I wonder if we have a bigger discussion here?> 12:56
ianweller we kinda do. 12:56
quaid should we worry about a proliferation of namespaces? 12:56
ianweller i think we should only approve namespaces if the content will not be considered documenation for end users or contributors 12:57
G quaid: It could potentially get too big 12:57
ianweller but otherwise, we need a hard rule one way or the other 12:57
quaid ianweller: yeah, that was my thinking in general 12:57
G ianweller: in that case feature pages fit into that rule 12:57
ianweller G: yes, they do 12:57
ianweller but, then so do theme proposals from the artwork team. 12:58
quaid so, no Features: namespace? 12:58
G err I mean, they fit into "documentation for end users or contributors" 12:58
quaid G: +1 12:58
ianweller how do they do that? i see them more as FESCo organization in my mind 12:58
quaid contributors work on them 12:58
quaid marketers use them to write from 12:59
quaid people read them to know what is coming 12:59
quaid etc. 12:59
G exactly 12:59
ianweller so we're going to just use the concept of putting 'feature' somewhere in the title and categorizing it appropriately as it is now? 12:59
ianweller like "Better webcam support feature for F10" 13:00
ianweller maybe even s/feature // 13:00
G well thats the way the rest of the policy is going, so yes 13:00
ianweller ok. 13:00
quaid ianweller: John maintains a set of categories 13:00
ianweller quaid: i know 13:00
quaid that is where to find the list ultimately, not by name 13:00
ianweller Category:FeatureF10Proposed or something like that 13:00
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quaid we're out of time 13:00
ianweller ack 13:01
G quaid: so do you want me to add the Meeting: namespace now? 13:01
quaid namespaces discussion -- to the list! 13:01
ianweller right-o. 13:01
jsmith +1 13:01
ianweller who should turn Help:Wiki organization (or whatever it was, i don't remember) into a policy? 13:01
quaid G: I'll reply to you on list giving people One Last Chance to argue, then we'll do it, sound OK? 13:01
* ianweller could, unless someone else wants to 13:01
quaid the last item 13:01
G quaid: good idea 13:01
quaid that we need to make up a skeleton release announcement 13:01
quaid anyone here interested in that task? or push request to the list? 13:02
ianweller what do you mean 13:02
ianweller "skeleton release announcement" 13:02
quaid sorry, for Alpha 13:02
ianweller oh ok. 13:02
quaid request from releng, basically 13:02
quaid I'll own that for now, see if I can find another doer :) 13:02
quaid all right, closing and getting out of the channel's way 13:03
ianweller ok someone's waiting for us to finish so /me moves to end meeting 13:03
ianweller yeah. 13:03
quaid </meeting> 13:03

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