Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090121

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quaid <meeting id="Docs team"> 14:01
* stickster here 14:02
* Sparks is present 14:02
* ke4qqq here 14:02
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- 14:02 -- calling of the role
* danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes. 14:02
* jjmcd is here 14:02
* quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine 14:03
danielsmw s/ine/ive 14:03
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-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- 14:04 -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and
quaid ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead? 14:05
ke4qqq we are looking for a lead for relnotes 14:06
ke4qqq decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding 14:06
stickster There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there? 14:06
ke4qqq we've had a few 14:06
ke4qqq no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though 14:06
jjmcd Isn't it more like under the bus 14:07
ke4qqq jjmcd: that isn't until after release 14:07
stickster When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility? 14:07
ke4qqq FUDcon technically 14:08
ke4qqq we should have a contingency plan methinks 14:08
* jsmith sneaks in late 14:08
Sparks ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it. 14:08
stickster I think the handoff is not as hard as people think 14:09
Sparks The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some 14:09
activity on the page.
quaid we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge 14:09
* ke4qqq shoves Sparks 14:09
stickster Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person 14:09
ke4qqq is that enough? 14:09
quaid ha! 14:09
jjmcd stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us -- kinda scary 14:10
quaid how about this .... 14:10
quaid what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11 14:10
quaid and jjmcd and others who might be interested 14:10
quaid commit to a Lt. role 14:10
quaid and we rotate for F12 14:10
stickster It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page 14:10
quaid  ? 14:10
Sparks quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation?  :) 14:10
stickster Sparks: That's not a bad idea 14:10
* herlo is here today 14:10
quaid Sparks: +10 14:10
* jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant" 14:10
* Sparks declares jsmith next. 14:10
jjmcd Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12 14:11
Sparks jjmcd: Works for me 14:11
stickster Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do 14:11
away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with.
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ke4qqq outstanding! 14:11
stickster If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. 14:11
stickster If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. 14:11
stickster oops, sorry 14:11
Sparks The page is at, by the way. 14:12
Sparks If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11 14:12
stickster jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw 14:13
stickster Have the beats now been scrubbed? 14:13
stickster Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away? 14:13
Sparks stickster: The scrubbing is in progress 14:14
Sparks stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases. 14:14
Sparks I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable 14:14
quaid it is page renaming that has to happen next :) 14:15
quaid each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case. 14:15
stickster IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh. 14:15
stickster +1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content. 14:15
stickster Good clarifications. 14:15
stickster But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material. 14:16
quaid right 14:16
stickster It's time for some bold moves here. 14:16
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stickster To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the 14:17
process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work?
Sparks Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of? 14:17
quaid on the first one ... 14:17
quaid I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first 14:17
quaid then we publicize like crazy 14:17
stickster Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion 14:17
quaid as for 2 ... 14:18
Sparks I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form. That would make it real easy. 14:18
stickster quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions) 14:18
quaid it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier. 14:18
quaid harveybetty was working on that, for example 14:18
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stickster Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes. 14:18
Sparks Okay 14:19
jjmcd It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from 14:19
Missouri on that
stickster Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new 14:19
feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open
Sparks So give them a sandbox and let them go. 14:19
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stickster Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town" 14:20
quaid yeah 14:20
Sparks stickster: Okay, well we can do that. 14:20
quaid that might be enough of a template :) 14:20
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Sparks Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done. 14:21
ke4qqq can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether? 14:21
Sparks We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such. 14:21
quaid ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then 14:21
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quaid ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree 14:22
quaid ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out 14:22
quaid we just have to suck that in 14:22
ke4qqq surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it. 14:22
ke4qqq ahhhh 14:22
ke4qqq that's a bit easier 14:22
jjmcd The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes 14:22
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jjmcd Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools 14:23
quaid no, it's true 14:23
Sparks Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and 14:23
start advertising.
quaid features are only highlighted groupings of changes 14:23
quaid but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set 14:24
quaid Sparks: +1 14:24
jjmcd Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important 14:24
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Sparks quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening. Shouldn't take long. Then we'll be ready. 14:25
* danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate. 14:25
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quaid ok, ready to move on from release notes? 14:25
Sparks +1 14:25
stickster bam! pow! 14:25
ke4qqq +1 14:25
jsmith +0.98 (after inflation) 14:26
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herlo +1 14:26
jjmcd lets go 14:26
* herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :) 14:26
jsmith herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p 14:27
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal 14:27
* jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient" 14:27
quaid true dat 14:27
herlo it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times 14:27
quaid but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :) 14:27
* jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D 14:27
quaid heh 14:27
Sparks So I'm thinking Friday at... 2? 14:28
jds2001 lol 14:28
jjmcd Would Friday at 4 be better? 14:28
quaid Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for 14:28
herlo +1 14:28
jds2001 unless you want FESCo clash :D 14:28
herlo okay not really ^^ 14:28
Sparks quaid: True 14:28
ke4qqq FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view? 14:28
jsmith ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates? 14:29
Sparks Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion. 14:29
ke4qqq jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors 14:29
quaid ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right? 14:30
Sparks +1 14:30
jsmith +1 14:30
stickster Not against, +1 14:30
jjmcd +1 14:30
stickster We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time 14:31
Sparks stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution. 14:31
quaid no you got the right thing 14:32
quaid 14:32
quaid Sparks made that and we can start populating it 14:32
stickster awesome. 14:33
quaid we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal 14:33
Sparks yes 14:33
quaid ok, then ... 14:33
quaid anything else on this 'un? 14:33
Sparks nope 14:34
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh 14:34
quaid anyone not read my email to the list? 14:34
quaid if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D 14:34
jjmcd which email to which list? 14:34
quaid jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l 14:34
jjmcd ahhhhh 14:34
* Sparks commented on it 14:35
quaid 14:35
* jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still 14:35
quaid oh, interesting viewpoint 14:36
quaid I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair 14:36
quaid and that means at least that many who could be steering 14:36
quaid in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition. 14:36
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-!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 14:36
jjmcd Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course 14:37
quaid we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck 14:37
ke4qqq voter turnout in general does 14:37
jjmcd Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier 14:37
jsmith Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election 14:38
jjmcd We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets 14:38
jjmcd Roger that jsmith 14:38
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ke4qqq I don't think there is really any alternative 14:39
Sparks jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does. 14:39
quaid yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :) 14:40
stickster I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader. 14:41
* stickster sent overdue response to list 14:41
ke4qqq stickster: will you explain why? 14:41
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ke4qqq or should I read that in your email? 14:41
stickster ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-) 14:42
stickster I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee. 14:42
stickster The number of votes is likely to be very small. 14:42
quaid hmm 14:42
quaid we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee? 14:42
Sparks How many in the committee? 14:43
stickster I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?". 14:43
ke4qqq at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce?? 14:43
Sparks I don't think we need more than a handful of people. 14:43
ke4qqq I tend to agree with that logic 14:43
ke4qqq but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership 14:43
stickster Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is 14:44
no SCo, but plenty is getting done.
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stickster FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy. 14:44
Sparks What is the election requirement? Just a leader or what? 14:44
stickster Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC 14:45
stickster Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor. 14:45
jjmcd I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or 14:45
quaid it's fair view, though 14:45
stickster I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree. 14:45
quaid we did steering committee back then because that was the best way 14:45
quaid things have evolved in the overall project, here too 14:45
stickster (or even a few people, for that matter) 14:45
quaid the main reason 14:45
stickster quaid: Right. 14:45
quaid for a steering committee formality 14:45
quaid is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs" 14:46
quaid and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively 14:46
stickster I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment. 14:46
quaid otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title. 14:46
stickster Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead. 14:46
quaid cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc. 14:46
quaid (IMO) 14:47
* jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot" 14:47
jjmcd yeah, good point. To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that 14:47
quaid stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action 14:47
stickster Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better. 14:47
stickster quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though) 14:47
quaid hmmm ... good stuff this 14:48
quaid so where to next? 14:48
stickster So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I 14:48
think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks"
quaid stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election? 14:49
stickster Yes. 14:49
* quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc. 14:49
jjmcd Concensus can be kind of mushy 14:49
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ke4qqq stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines 14:49
ke4qqq I though election was a must? 14:49
stickster ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject 14:50
stickster Oops, scratch that. 14:50
stickster That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower 14:50
stickster this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way. 14:50
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stickster A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X." 14:50
jjmcd Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from? 14:51
stickster 14:51
quaid jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :) 14:51
stickster jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad) 14:51
from them
jjmcd Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard 14:52
* stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now 14:52
* stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02 14:52
quaid ok, so the deal is ... 14:52
quaid we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules 14:52
quaid Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement. 14:52
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quaid we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see. 14:53
quaid what I'd like to do ... 14:53
quaid is decide _on_list_ how to proceed: 14:53
quaid * elections or no 14:53
quaid * steering or no 14:53
quaid * sig or sub-proj 14:53
quaid etc. 14:53
quaid does that make sense? 14:54
Sparks +1 14:54
jjmcd Yes, let's suck in some other voices 14:54
Sparks quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list. Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses. 14:54
jjmcd This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful 14:55
quaid can someone else .. 14:55
quaid take a stab at explaining this via the list? 14:55
ke4qqq lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I 14:55
like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined
Sparks quaid: On it 14:55
quaid Sparks: thx 14:55
Sparks ke4qqq: Who is going to say that? 14:57
quaid ok, time runneth short 14:58
ke4qqq you can - didn't you say you were on it? 14:58
quaid I think we have what we need on this topic, yes? 14:58
Sparks +1 14:58
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ke4qqq yes 14:58
jjmcd yep 14:58
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like 14:59
quaid two voices so far: 14:59
quaid King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC 14:59
quaid and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest 14:59
quaid in supporting any PHP solution. 14:59
danielsmw yup. 14:59
quaid (with Drupal up on the list somewhere.) 15:00
* herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well 15:00
quaid herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all 15:00
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quaid the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross. 15:00
jsmith herlo: I refuse to use Drupal. If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it. 15:01
* jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it 15:01
danielsmw i've expressed interest in drupal before 15:01
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quaid ok, that's the status :) 15:01
jsmith herlo: Can I be more clear? I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS 15:01
danielsmw but never really for a good reason 15:01
danielsmw so i'm wondering 15:01
danielsmw while we have some people here 15:01
herlo jsmith: start licking 15:02
danielsmw what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for? 15:02
quaid ok 15:02
danielsmw s/should/shouldn't/ 15:02
quaid since we are over our hour ... 15:02
quaid can we take the CMS discussion 15:02
quaid to #fedora-docs 15:02
danielsmw +1 15:02
quaid with the note for the record that .. 15:02
quaid "more discussion on list" 15:02
jjmcd R 15:02
quaid ok then 15:02
quaid R? 15:02
herlo I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work. I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love 15:02
you man!
jjmcd Roger 15:02
quaid cool 15:02
jsmith danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog 15:03
jsmith danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL 15:03
jjmcd Pefformance is my main beef 15:03
quaid ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait 15:03
herlo moving along? 15:03
jjmcd Oui 15:03
quaid closing I think yes 15:03
quaid 5 15:03
quaid 4 15:03
quaid 3 15:03
quaid 2 15:03
quaid 1 15:03
quaid </meeting> 15:03