Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090211

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Sparks <meeting id="Docs Project"> 11:01
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings 11:01
Sparks Roll Call! 11:01
* Sparks is here 11:01
* stickster is here 11:01
* ke4qqq is here 11:01
kirkz is here 11:01
* jjmcd too 11:01
* Sparks waits a few more minutes to allow the rest of the chickens a chance to migrate over 11:02
ke4qqq s/migrate over/cross the road 11:02
Sparks  :) 11:02
Sparks Do chickens migrate? 11:02
Sparks Would chickens migrate? 11:02
jjmcd You'll never know, they keep the couped up 11:02
* stickster facepalm 11:03
* jjmcd has been grokking PIC code today, is a little weird 11:03
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Documentation Schedule - http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html 11:04
Sparks Okay... moving right along. 11:04
Sparks So I think quaid has been pinging on everyone about this schedule. 11:04
Sparks Does anyone have any problems or questions about it? 11:04
* Sparks hears crickets 11:05
stickster none here 11:05
* stickster caret stuck on other window 11:05
ke4qqq none here either 11:05
Sparks Okay. Just making sure...  :) 11:05
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - CMS Update 11:05
Sparks Zikula has been in the test mode for about two weeks. ke4qqq and itbegins have been working out the kinks. Any updates? 11:05
ke4qqq I've been hacking on packaging and did a bit this weekend - and thanks to herlo have a much cleaner package - I've passed a few questions up to the packaging gods to see if things are allowed.... 11:06
ke4qqq we still have 8-10 modules that will need to be packaged as well 11:06
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stickster ke4qqq: Is there a test site viewable at this time, or is that yet to come? 11:06
ke4qqq and I also have the conf file that we'll need to get squared away. 11:07
ke4qqq pt15 has a test site up and fedora.zikula.org as a test site the Simon setup as well 11:07
ke4qqq still some work to do with websites for look and feel I believe 11:07
* stickster sorry to be behind on this 11:08
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* ke4qqq hasn't had the time to devote to it that I want or it'd likely already be in review 11:08
Sparks ke4qqq: Do we have an estimation on when everything being completed? 11:08
* stickster notes fedora.zikula.org is about 90% fedora-looking, fwiw 11:08
ke4qqq yes 11:08
ke4qqq Simon did a nice bit of work in mockup 11:09
ke4qqq Sparks: honestly no clue - package review will be an issue - esp since we are talking about 10+ packages 11:09
ke4qqq and while we don't need that completed to get it up and running 11:09
ke4qqq just getting it done will take a bit of time 11:10
Sparks ke4qqq: Okay. Keep us informed! 11:10
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stickster ke4qqq: fyi, http://velohacker.com/?p=3756 11:10
stickster jeremy is volunteering to do some package review -- this seems like a good opportunity to grab him! 11:10
ke4qqq yes - and I have a few other resources who have volunteered to review for docs 11:10
* Sparks wonders if he should switch reviewers/ 11:10
* stickster wonders if he just started a stampede. "Follow the gourd!" 11:11
Sparks Anything else for the CMS? 11:11
ke4qqq nothing from me 11:11
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes 11:11
Sparks Okay... Those lovely Release Notes... 11:11
Sparks Where are we? 11:11
* quaid is here 11:11
jjmcd Next week at this time we should be ready to build update for f10 11:12
quaid +10 11:12
jjmcd Ryanlerch has made a DocBook version from the wiki for f11 test 11:12
-!- jsalisbury [n=chatzill@68-189-244-216.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:12
jjmcd I have shared some comments both on the mailing list and offline 11:13
Sparks jjmcd: Are you available on Fedora Talk? 11:13
jjmcd I am encouraged that mass rebuild as a result of gcc didn't seem to cause mass upheval 11:14
jjmcd Sparks I think I can be in a minute 11:14
Sparks jjmcd: I'd like to get you and ryanlerch and quaid and anyone else that wants to in a conference room later this week/weekend we we can make that happen. 11:14
jjmcd Untested, but I can hear, not so sure about be heard! 11:14
jjmcd "that" being? 11:15
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Sparks Oh... 11:15
* stickster glad to see he's not the only one who abuses pronouns. 11:15
Sparks "that" being a conference call on F-Talk. (I'm loosing my mind today) 11:15
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quaid Sparks: I can do that somehow 11:16
jjmcd Prolly not such a bad plan 11:16
ke4qqq you mean you are coming unscrewed? 11:16
quaid yep, it's all loose 11:16
Sparks ke4qqq: There's a Navy term for that of which I'm pretty sure I can't use here 11:16
ke4qqq lol 11:17
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Sparks Okay, so forward motion on the Release Notes... excellent 11:17
quaid ok, yeah, I'll take another shot at trying to help the relnotes miss the known bumps. 11:17
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* Sparks loves it when quaid puts himself in the crosshairs 11:17
* quaid is beginning to lose his confidence around ability to write simple, clear instructions 11:17
Sparks Anything else? 11:17
jjmcd I think we may need to work harder to recruit beat writers 11:18
jjmcd I had some thoughts but haven't acted on them yet 11:18
quaid +1 11:18
jjmcd Prolly need to chat w/Ryan 11:18
quaid that's always been the biggest trouble imo 11:18
ke4qqq has there been any recruitment via p.fp.o? 11:18
Sparks jjmcd: Feel free to share your thoughts 11:18
Sparks jjmcd: either here or on the list. 11:18
quaid jjmcd: alt. you all could just do stuff and try to pump up the volume. 11:18
ke4qqq there was last release but I don't recall seeing any 11:18
quaid a lot of noise v. none isn't going to be a problem, is it? 11:19
jjmcd I think we do need to push up the volume a bit 11:19
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* quaid reaches for "11" 11:19
quaid see, it's one higher than "10" 11:19
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ke4qqq how appropriate 11:19
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ke4qqq ahh spinal tap :) 11:19
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Sparks jjmcd: Well, if you want to write something up please do. We definitely need more people. 11:21
Sparks Anything else before we move on? 11:21
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jjmcd Yeah, I'm heading into report time 11:21
jjmcd But need to get on that 11:21
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Installation Guide 11:21
* jjmcd goes heads-down on paperwork ~10-15th of the month 11:21
Sparks jjmcd: Understood 11:22
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Sparks Any update on the Installation Guide? 11:22
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Sparks I don't remember who has that project. 11:22
* ke4qqq has it 11:22
* quaid whistles 11:22
quaid yeah, him! 11:22
Sparks  :) 11:22
ke4qqq Rudi volunteered to help, lcafiero is my editor, and herlo is going to write the missing network auth section 11:22
ke4qqq I'd still like more help, but am far better off than last week at this time 11:23
* danielsmw_ sneaks in quietly and takes a seat. 11:23
ke4qqq wow that sounded odd 11:23
ke4qqq far better off that this time last week 11:23
* ke4qqq gives up at typing 11:23
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ke4qqq I've also run through a couple of installs to notice changes in anaconda 11:23
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ke4qqq but that's about it at the moment 11:24
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Sparks ke4qqq: Okay. Good deal. 11:24
Sparks Anyone have any questions? 11:24
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quaid ke4qqq: I'm another hand, pointable at whatever is left on the floor. 11:24
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ke4qqq quaid: I am trying to disavow knowledge of that at this point 11:25
ke4qqq as you'll likely have your hands full 11:25
ke4qqq if I get desperate I'll call for help, but I am hoping to pull new bodies to do this. 11:25
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Security Guide 11:26
Sparks Well, this is my project... The Brisbane team (mainly Scott) has been working on validating the documentation. I'm still waiting on a few things to be fixed in Publican before I can get the package approved but a PDF is being generated and the docs.fp.o/securityguide is being updated regularly. 11:26
Sparks Any questions? 11:26
quaid ke4qqq: actually, to be fair, you all are doing such a great job of covering all the angles. 11:26
quaid that I found myself unexpectedly light in what I thought I was going to be doing for Docs for this release 11:26
quaid so I'm keeping it *all* in reserve for emergencies and pick ups :) 11:27
ke4qqq quaid: you ought not jinx us or yourself like that :) 11:27
jjmcd Well, you gotta stay loose to watch Lance 11:27
ke4qqq Sparks: what's the package blocking on? 11:27
quaid <== lighting rod 11:27
quaid I can take the shock :) 11:27
Sparks quaid: Now go outside... spin around three times and spit! 11:27
Sparks ke4qqq: Good golly it is a list! 11:27
quaid Sparks: widdershins? 11:27
ke4qqq bz ticket #? 11:28
Sparks ke4qqq: Apparently Publican matches perfectly for RH packaging standards but not so much with Fedora packaging standards. 11:28
quaid done 11:28
Sparks ke4qqq: which is amazing because they are supposed to be the same. 11:28
ke4qqq  :) 11:28
Sparks .bug 476471 11:28
buggbot Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=476471 medium, low, ---, petersen@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Review Request: fedora-security-guide - A security guide for Linux 11:28
zodbot Sparks: Bug 476471 Review Request: fedora-security-guide - A security guide for Linux - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471 11:28
buggbot Bug 476471: medium, low, ---, petersen@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Review Request: fedora-security-guide - A security guide for Linux 11:28
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Sparks Well, that was interesting 11:29
quaid heh 11:29
quaid close 11:29
Sparks ke4qqq: So I'm waiting on another version of Publican right now. 11:29
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ke4qqq k 11:29
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Sparks My problems, however, are problems that will affect EVERYONE in Fedora that plan on using Publican for Documentation that will be generating SRPMs 11:30
Sparks So I'm trying to identify the problems and have them fixed so Publican will be useable without any slight of hand or trickery. 11:31
itbegins Sorry, I'm here now - got called out just as meeting started. fwiw I have nothing to add on the CMS front. 11:31
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quaid +1*10^27 11:31
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ke4qqq cool 11:31
ke4qqq yeah what quaid said 11:31
quaid so Publican lead developer said he'd take patches, Perl I presume. 11:31
quaid otherwise I doubt we'll see this soon enough; I reckon it's not priority to the Publican community that is !Fedora Project 11:32
Sparks quaid: He said he'd take them but didn't say what he'd do with them. 11:32
quaid Sparks: well, he may argue about implementation details, but unless he's being intentionall disingenuous ... 11:32
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quaid one thing that bothers me so far ... 11:33
quaid spot: are you around? 11:33
quaid I'd like a definitive from spot or tburke that (Fedora packaging standards) == (Red Hat packaging standards) 11:33
quaid or an explanation of the difference and exceptions. 11:33
Sparks +1 11:34
quaid that's more from a general community member perspective, not really a Docs thing. 11:34
quaid I grok that there are exceptions, maybe many hundreds, but they shouldn't make the rule or define how tools should behave. 11:34
quaid at least, if what we see from the entire QE and RelEng departments are any indication, the two are equivalent. 11:35
quaid </soapbox> 11:35
Sparks quaid: Well, can you take the tasker to find out what the difference is between RH and F? 11:35
quaid Sparks: aye 11:36
Sparks quaid: TU 11:36
Sparks Anything else? 11:36
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on SELinux Guide 11:36
Sparks Okay. This is mdious's project. He isn't awake at this time but I know he's made a lot of progress on this. 11:37
Sparks I'll see if I can get more information from him later this week. 11:37
Sparks Any questions about this one? 11:37
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quaid is he doing an FN version or does he need it versionless, cf. SEc Guide? 11:38
quaid in terms of the packaging name :) 11:38
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Sparks quaid: I don't know. I'm pretty sure he'll be in my boat. 11:38
quaid yeah, I'm unclear there. 11:38
quaid but otherwise it looks freaking great. 11:38
Sparks the packaging name issue will be there until Publican is rewritten. 11:38
Sparks Okay... Moving on... 11:39
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on User Guide 11:39
Sparks This is Matthew's (danielsmw) project and since he usually doesn't get into the meetings until late he sent an email to the list. Did everyone read it? 11:39
Sparks danielsmw: You here? 11:39
danielsmw_ He got here this time though. =) 11:39
danielsmw_ Yeah, I'm here. 11:39
danielsmw_ But everyone should have seen my email. 11:39
danielsmw_ quaid: still planning on doing that at SCaLE? 11:39
quaid danielsmw_: darn tootin' 11:40
quaid it's in the press release 11:40
quaid can't back down now 11:40
danielsmw_ Okay, great 11:40
danielsmw_ Well 11:40
* quaid goes to read email to catch right up 11:40
danielsmw_ A question that I put in the email that I've been thinking about 11:40
Sparks danielsmw_: I think I responded to your message with direction on KDE stuff. 11:40
danielsmw_ is editing directly in XML vs the wiki 11:40
danielsmw_ Sparks: thanks, let me check it... 11:41
danielsmw_ Ah, good idea 11:41
danielsmw_ I'll hop over to fedora-kde later on and try that 11:41
quaid danielsmw_: ok, I said some stuff on that earlier this week; did you catch that? 11:41
Sparks danielsmw_: the KDE folks seem very helpful and willing to help push "their" packages 11:41
quaid on f-docs-l 11:41
danielsmw_ quaid: Maybe? I usually read the emails but I'm not sure what you mean 11:42
quaid in summary, there is an argument that the U_G is a perfect newbie training tool; edit in wiki then help with conversion. 11:42
danielsmw_ ah, right 11:42
danielsmw_ yes 11:42
quaid v. any other more complex one. 11:42
quaid however 11:42
danielsmw_ Yeah, and I agree with that 11:42
danielsmw_ So 11:42
danielsmw_ What I would ideally like to see 11:42
danielsmw_ Is some hypothetical process where 11:42
quaid the other argument is that the wiki is growing as a small-article tool, so we could have people just make the leap, if you feel you can sustain the team. 11:42
danielsmw_ We... made editing XML very beginner friendly? I'm not sure. 11:42
danielsmw_ quaid: expand on that? 11:43
quaid IMO, the stuff that 'mw-render' pulls from a properly cleaned wiki page 11:43
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quaid is great learner stuff 11:43
quaid you learn how to fit it in to Publican and start editing 11:43
quaid but I'm such a non-beginner I might be missing the complexity :) 11:43
danielsmw_ Heh 11:43
quaid danielsmw_: to expand quickly: 11:43
ke4qqq it's not 'beginner friendly' - but it's not hard - a few hours and you'll have the basics but the letters X-M-L scare people into thinking it must be akin to writing assembly 11:43
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jjmcd Even if it is very beginner friendly, a wiki seems to be less intimidating 11:44
quaid if there is enough work on the wiki to keep newbies happy there, then they can just leap to XML when ready; i.e., we don't need a full guide that carries training wheels forever 11:44
danielsmw_ quaid: okay, I get what you're saying 11:44
quaid my gut says we're not there yet, make that an F12 goal perhaps. 11:44
danielsmw_ Yeah 11:44
danielsmw_ Either way, that's not my biggest concern right now. 11:44
danielsmw_ I just want to: 11:45
danielsmw_ 1. Catch up to the release cycle, and 11:45
danielsmw_ 2. work on the user friendliness aspects that eawest and I had talked about and started a bit 11:45
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danielsmw_ So, unless anyone has any questions.... that's about it, I think. 11:46
danielsmw_ The only writers I really have right now are myself, eawest when she's around, 11:46
danielsmw_ and it looks like I may be pulling in kirk, who just joined the list. 11:46
quaid danielsmw_: can we set a priority for chapters or work before the FAD? 11:46
quaid that is ... 11:47
kirkz danielsmw: happy to do what I can 11:47
Sparks danielsmw_: Can you make sure kirk knows where all the resources and such are, please? 11:47
quaid either set a priority to chapters, or to content (all GNOME first, etc.), or to the rewrite bits 11:47
danielsmw_ Sparks: I didn't realize it, but he's right there. 11:47
Sparks danielsmw_: There ya go! 11:47
danielsmw_ kirkz: any questions? 11:47
quaid and a plan ... are we going to tackle chapters one at a time and do the full work on it, or split up and specialize. 11:47
danielsmw_ quaid: Yes, we can do that 11:47
quaid i.e., I work on restyling, others work on fact checking updates, etc. 11:47
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kirkz Not smart enough to ask yet :0 11:47
* quaid thinks specialize might work best, but we can also experiment 11:48
danielsmw_ I'll set priorities this weekend, and then you and I can work on a process 11:48
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quaid kirkz: just keep asking questions in #fedora-docs :) 11:48
* danielsmw is glad to be rid of that pesky underscore 11:48
kirkz quaid: will do 11:48
quaid kirkz: for what it's worth, our join process still sucks a bit, so don't overly blame yourself :) 11:48
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Sparks Okay, we only have about ten minutes left and I have two more topics to discuss. Does anyone have anything else about the User Guide? 11:49
kirkz k 11:49
* quaid done 11:49
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-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Meeting time change 11:49
Sparks http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix 11:49
Sparks If you haven't already posted your availabilities up on the meeting matrix please do so before next Wednesday. I want to get this fixed by then so we can start incorporating more of our team into our meetings. 11:49
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* Sparks thinks we should also rename everything as we don't really have a FDSCo but rather a Docs Team. 11:50
* jjmcd notes that last he looked there weren't any good times, just less sucky than other times 11:50
* danielsmw agrees 11:50
* danielsmw with sparks. 11:50
Sparks jjmcd: danielsmw I think it is ALWAYS going to be that way. 11:50
jjmcd yep 11:50
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Sparks Well, we can compile all the data and see where it points us. 11:51
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jjmcd You would think the IRC gods would gift us with a perfect time 11:51
Sparks besides quaid, who else is PST? 11:51
quaid not many 11:51
* Sparks is worried about "drive time" PST 11:51
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quaid apparently no one loves Fedora in Cali 11:51
Sparks quaid: You do 11:52
jjmcd Well, CA is weird 11:52
quaid not many 11:52
Sparks Okay... Anything else before I bring up quaid's topic? 11:52
ke4qqq quaid doesn't have to worry about 'drive time' does he? 11:52
Sparks ke4qqq: I don't think so 11:52
* ke4qqq thought he worked from home and had a never-visited office in mtn view 11:52
quaid RHT has an office but I don't have a desk in MTV 11:53
Sparks ke4qqq: Which is why I worried about everyone other than quaid 11:53
ke4qqq ahhh ok 11:53
quaid yeah, drive time doesn't bug me, unless it's also dinner time 11:53
Sparks ke4qqq: He's always here! 11:53
* quaid will fill out his stuff 11:53
Sparks Anything else? 11:53
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-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - DocsProject wiki page changes 11:54
Sparks I think this is quaid's since I saw the message go up on f-wiki-l... 11:54
Sparks quaid: So you finally went and did it. 11:54
quaid ah, yeah 11:54
quaid Sparks: did what? 11:54
Sparks quaid: Put it all down on... ummm... paper 11:55
quaid heh 11:55
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Sparks quaid: I've been trying to control myself from doing it by hand but it seems we may have to. 11:55
quaid yeah, we're stuck on the renaming and categories 11:55
quaid or rip and replce 11:55
quaid to get our process's cleaned up 11:55
quaid I'm also tired of people (/me mumbles no names) who are pointing at crufty process content 11:55
quaid as canonical, which is our fault for leaving it there and not updating. 11:56
quaid but I cannot see how to do this right without a cleanup/rename or rip/replace. 11:56
quaid why you ask? 11:56
ke4qqq on that note has ian/G provided an update on wikibot recently? and has there been any documentation of how to handle categories in the wikirename psvs? 11:56
quaid because when we get every real process page in ... 11:56
quaid we are going to easily see duplicates and holes. 11:56
quaid ke4qqq: ian and I have been poking G, yeah, and last request to get the code in to the f'hosted/fedora-wiki project git 11:57
Sparks quaid: Okay, if ianweller can't get the bot cranked up by Friday evening let's get a process started at identifying and renaming all the pages and get them in the proper cats 11:57
quaid the .psv helps a lot there 11:57
quaid we can use it as a guide in renaming, etc. 11:58
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Sparks quaid: Well we might need to put it on the wiki and assign people sections. 11:58
quaid the hassle is how many pages there are and linking in going through 120 new redirect pages 11:58
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Sparks quaid: no doubt it will be some work but we have to do it if we are going to be the shining example that we want to be. 11:59
quaid word! 11:59
Sparks Okay... with seconds left in the hour... anyone have anything else? 11:59
Sparks 5 11:59
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Sparks 1 11:59
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming! 11:59
Sparks </meeting> 12:00

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