Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090702

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Sparks #startmeeting 00:00
Sparks #maintopic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 00:01
Sparks Hmmm.... 00:01
Sparks #topic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 00:01
Sparks Roll Call!!! 00:01
* Sparks is here 00:01
* radsy is here 00:01
ianweller hi! 00:02
* jjmcd is here 00:02
joat annette! 00:02
* ianweller adds something to the agenda really fast 00:02
* poelcat here for ~ 30min (schedule worked out) 00:02
* ianweller is done adding things to the agenda 00:03
Sparks poelcat: Great, we'll get you in at the beginning 00:03
* quaid is here 00:03
Sparks ianweller: noted 00:03
ianweller Sparks: oh you were looking for #meetingtopic earlier instead of #maintopic 00:03
ianweller Sparks: or you can pass that as an argument to #startmeeting. 00:03
* Sparks moves some things around... 00:04
Sparks ianweller: That's what I was looking for... Gees... 00:04
Sparks TU 00:04
Sparks Okay... I've modified the agenda a bit... 00:05
Sparks #meetingtopic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 00:06
Sparks #topic F12 Calendar <-- poelcat 00:06
Sparks poelcat has been nice enough to create a calendar for us for the F12 release... 00:06
poelcat looking to see if there was any feedback on the schedules I proposed 00:06
Sparks and he sent it to everyone via the list. 00:07
Sparks Has everyone looked at it? 00:07
poelcat also curious if there was any interest in the ical/ics file? 00:07
* Sparks goes to get the links real quick. 00:07
Sparks poelcat: I like the ical... 00:07
ianweller someone have a link handy? 00:07
quaid it's worth having anyway 00:07
jjmcd Don't know enough about what we are going to do to know whether it makes sense or not 00:07
Sparks #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html 00:08
Sparks #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-and-releng-tasks.html 00:08
Sparks #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs.ics 00:08
Sparks The first link is the docs tasks on a calendar... 00:08
Sparks the second link is the docs + releng tasks on a calendar... 00:08
Sparks and the third link is the docs ics 00:08
Sparks jjmcd: This is the master calendar for the F12 release. 00:09
jjmcd Yes, but I have significant questions 00:09
Sparks jjmcd: go! 00:09
jjmcd Now that alpha is a real alpha, for example, does the 1 page RN's make sense 00:10
jjmcd Before alpha was a hoax, now it is feature complete 00:10
poelcat i took the previous "beta" tasks and relabled them "alpha" 00:10
jjmcd That is probably not too bad an approximation 00:11
jjmcd Especially since we probably don't really know how alpha and beta will turn out 00:11
poelcat the biggest things to consider are "is there enough time to do the tasks listed and do the order of events look right" 00:11
jjmcd What Jesse things might not turne out 00:12
poelcat + based on what you learned in F11... have we factored that in 00:12
jjmcd I think that is a good start 00:12
poelcat i can always change/adjust things 00:13
poelcat and most importantly as you notice things in F12 that don't work well that you want to change for F13... tell me as they happen 00:13
poelcat and i'll start factoring them into a draft for f13 00:13
* poelcat says f13 for one more channel highlight for jesse ;-) 00:14
Sparks Gees, are we already thinking f13? 00:14
poelcat well nobody else probably is, but I do :) 00:14
Sparks I mean, gees, we just got done with f11 and we are already thinking f13? 00:14
Sparks f13 00:14
ianweller always think ahead 00:14
Sparks f13... Wow... f13 00:15
Sparks  :) 00:15
quaid yeah, poor Jesse 00:15
quaid his nick will light up for _years_ 00:15
poelcat another important thing to consider is handoffs between translation team and docs 00:15
poelcat and to verify if those look right 00:15
Sparks jjmcd: How long did it take the translators to finish the RN for f11? 00:16
jjmcd several weeks - three i think 00:16
poelcat i created another special version for that: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-and-trans-tasks.html 00:16
Sparks and that's with making changes along the way, right? 00:16
jjmcd yes 00:16
* Sparks would still like to figure out a better process so we aren't making so many changes 00:17
jjmcd I think it ought to go better with propere warning 00:17
Sparks Yeah 00:18
Sparks so any more input to the calendar? 00:18
Sparks poelcat: Can you put our weekly meeting on the ics? 00:19
poelcat Sparks: i can definitely try... there are some things that make creating the ics not so straight forward 00:20
Sparks I can imagine. 00:20
Sparks Okay, anything else about this topic? 00:20
poelcat as just building the taskjuggler file, but it will either work or it won't 00:20
poelcat the challenge is landing it at the right time 00:20
poelcat i'll look into it 00:20
Sparks Thanks 00:20
poelcat what is the official meeting time in UTC ? 00:21
Sparks 0001 UTC 00:21
Sparks and we go for an hour or so 00:21
poelcat got it.. that's all from me 00:21
Sparks Thanks! 00:21
Sparks Anyone else? 00:21
Sparks #topic Status on CC license discussion. <--quaid 00:21
* Sparks hears quaid has news 00:22
Sparks quaid: Ummm... quaid? 00:23
joat mebbe he didn't hear his que 00:23
quaid ok 00:23
quaid yeah, silent alarm or what 00:23
quaid I don't have any more news than what was on list 00:23
quaid i) we seem to have consensus 00:23
quaid ii) but there is concern that people will feel overridden by the CLA directives being used 00:23
quaid iii) I'm writing a blog post that gives all the Real and Great Reasons we need to enact the nuclear option in the CLA 00:24
quaid once that is out there...maybe a thread'O'doom on f-devel-l is called for? 00:24
quaid the point is, we need to alert people the change is imminent 00:24
quaid maybe set a deadline for comments? 2 weeks? 00:24
quaid and spread the word wide and noisy 00:24
quaid wait 00:24
quaid then do it 00:24
quaid <eof. 00:25
quaid comments? questions? 00:25
Sparks Well... I'd like a quick vote... Does anyone have any problem with using the CLA to push the license change? 00:25
quaid vote-- 00:25
Sparks +1 to changing the license using the nuclear option 00:25
quaid we have a consensus on list 00:25
rudi +1 00:25
quaid if there are objections,we need to take them right back to the discussion, is all I'm saying. 00:25
Sparks quaid: Yeah, I just want to make sure no one here has any problems that we can work on now. 00:25
quaid so even a single -1 == back to the list IMO 00:26
Sparks yes 00:26
quaid did I sufficiently answer Sparks questions on list? 00:26
quaid that was what made me realize I needed to do a wider post; reexplain from the top,etc. 00:26
ianweller what? 00:26
quaid ianweller: your coffee is boiling over 00:26
ianweller ocrap 00:27
ianweller  ;) 00:27
ianweller quaid: oh god a thread'O'doom?! 00:27
ianweller i don't need more email than i'm already getting 00:27
Sparks Anyone care to put a vote down or am I to assume that no vote is a +1 vote? 00:28
jjmcd I'll vote 0 00:28
quaid ianweller: I expect arrows, mud,and pitch 00:28
ianweller quaid: i expect all of that to be flaming. :( 00:29
quaid when we tell people that the CLA needs to be used to change a license like that 00:29
* ianweller votes 0 on the proposal, i just wanna nuclearize it now ;) 00:29
quaid jjmcd: are you unsettled by something? 00:29
quaid at the least,folks,make sure I answer all the questions when I write this article :) 00:29
jjmcd I like the CC by SA, a little uncomfortable wit pushing too hard 00:29
quaid my argument is that we are on a teeny, tiny island all by ourselves 00:30
Sparks jjmcd: The problem we have is the problem of calling in everyone that has ever touched anything that is covered by the license. We just can't do that. 00:30
quaid for example,we rewrite GNOME docs each release. 00:30
quaid for our ability to do open content 00:30
jjmcd Yeah, the best we can do is to get all our current contributors to buy in 00:30
quaid the relicensing is crucial 00:30
Sparks jjmcd: Yes and I think we (Docs) has been doing that. 00:31
quaid ok, I'll write my piece, cross post it,and see where that goes 00:31
jjmcd I haven't heard objections, but I haven't heard from laubersm, don't recall Zach 00:31
quaid OK with setting a 2 week deadline for discussion? 00:31
jjmcd Sounds like a plan 00:32
quaid Apache consensus rules are in effect 00:32
Sparks quaid: Yes... 2 weeks from today. If we need to we'll hold a town hall meeting and I'll put you at the front of the room. :) 00:32
quaid if someone doesn't speak up in a reasonable period of time, that is taken as consent :) 00:32
quaid Sparks: OK! 00:32
jjmcd But lets make a special effort to be sure the F10 contributors have heard the story 00:32
Sparks  :) 00:32
quaid jjmcd: how? 00:33
quaid that is, we've been discussing it on list for 6 weeks 00:33
jjmcd Direct email to those that haven't been here - I doubt there's more than 2 or three 00:33
quaid ok 00:33
* quaid will do that 00:33
jjmcd I don't forsee a problem, but some have been busy lately, I'm thinking of laubersm but I suspect there may be one or two others 00:34
Sparks quaid: We can hit the list that goes to everyone that is on the Docs FAS group 00:34
quaid Sparks: but they should all be on f-docs-l 00:34
quaid I'll email people 00:34
quaid who committed changes to any repo for the last two releases 00:34
jjmcd Yeah, I don't know we need to go after the whole list - quaid - exactly 00:35
quaid but I don't want to circumnavigate the established channels of communication. 00:35
quaid the list == the channel, but hey :) 00:35
jjmcd  ;-) 00:35
jjmcd After listening to Paul and Jan maybe I'm a little over sensitive 00:36
Sparks Okay, anything else? 00:36
Sparks #topic Ian has news from CC on the licensing change marketing whatnottery 00:37
Sparks ianweller: Go! 00:38
Sparks Is someone else asleep? 00:39
jjmcd hmmm - while I was watching ianweller changed from 10 minutes ago to 144 minutes ago, whats up with that 00:40
Sparks Okay, we'll come back to him. 00:40
ianweller what? 00:40
ianweller i'm here 00:40
ianweller sorry :) 00:40
quaid marketeer time 00:40
Sparks ianweller: ^^^ topic 00:40
ianweller http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-July/msg00003.html <-- got this from CC today. 00:40
ianweller it's been sent to fedora-docs-list as you can tell. 00:40
ianweller that's all i've got ;) 00:40
Sparks ianweller: Well... what is it? 00:42
ianweller that they're willing to make a blog post 00:42
ianweller saying "hey look they switched licenses whee" 00:42
ianweller and we just need top ing them when we're ready to do that 00:42
Sparks cool 00:43
Sparks Anyone have any questions? 00:43
Sparks #topic Shared open-source style guide 00:44
Sparks ke4qqq: You around tonight? 00:44
Sparks I guess not. 00:45
Sparks I don't think there has been any change. Does anyone have any questions or comments? 00:45
ianweller no 00:46
Sparks #topic Bugzilla Component Changes 00:46
Sparks #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table 00:46
Sparks So I started the process of moving files around and removing the products from our BZ component. 00:46
Sparks If anyone has a project that needs to be in BZ please let me know and I can get you setup pretty quickly. 00:47
Sparks Anyone have any questions or comments? 00:47
Sparks #topic 00:48
Sparks #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets 00:48
Sparks #link http://tinyurl.com/lgx98o 00:48
Sparks If everyone would take a look at the above link... 00:48
ianweller those tickets are just outstanding! ;) 00:49
Sparks these are the outstanding tickets that were opened during the month of June that haven't been accepted. 00:49
Sparks ianweller: Yes they are because these are tickets that people filed because they care enough about our products! 00:49
ianweller  :D 00:49
Sparks I'm not going to go through them all tonight but I would like to start running through the ones we need to work on so we can respond to the appropriately. 00:50
Sparks but feel free to take one! 00:51
Sparks questions? 00:52
Sparks #topic DocsProject wiki pages changes 00:52
Sparks ianweller: What's the word on wikibot? 00:52
ianweller it's on my to-do list 00:52
Sparks Okay... 00:53
ianweller IOW, nothing. :( 00:53
Sparks Yeah... Well, we should probably revisit this again and see what needs to be done. 00:54
Sparks questions? 00:54
Sparks #topic With the new definition of alpha and beta, do we need to treat release notes differently? 00:54
Sparks jjmcd: Did you put this up there? 00:54
jjmcd Yes 00:55
jjmcd I wonder whether the one pager is in keeping with "feature complete" 00:55
jjmcd Not sure that it is realistic to do much more so early tho 00:55
Sparks the one pager? Is this the idea stickster_afk had at the FAD? 00:55
jjmcd But I haven't fully digested the schedule and what it means 00:56
jjmcd No, that's what poelcat just sait 00:56
jjmcd said 00:56
jjmcd What we used to do for beta 00:56
Sparks Ahhh 00:56
Sparks Well, if you want to do something different this time around I'm all ears. 00:57
jjmcd f13 really wants alpha and beta to actually be alpha and beta, and I understand his point 00:57
jjmcd but I obviously can't predict whether what he wants will actually happen 00:57
jjmcd So perhaps this needs another week for a more meaningful discussion, with proposals for ppl to chew on 00:58
Sparks worksfor me 00:59
jjmcd I'll digest it all over the next week 00:59
jjmcd Still haven't dug out from my email since I was away 00:59
jjmcd All that Berliner Kindl you know 00:59
Sparks  :) 01:00
Sparks okay, so we'll discuss it more next week. 01:00
jjmcd Also I spoke with glezos and the German translator about their problems 01:01
Sparks Anything to report? 01:01
jjmcd Not really, just what you would expect, except perhaps 01:01
jjmcd that the new transifex will help us both 01:01
rudi Amen 01:01
Sparks when will that be up and running? 01:02
rudi Well, it's finally been packaged 01:02
Sparks That's encouraging. 01:02
rudi So I guess RSN :) 01:02
rudi As I understand, that was the blocker 01:03
quaid usually is 01:03
rudi  ;) 01:03
jjmcd Also 01:03
* quaid >muffle, muffle, murg< 01:03
jjmcd spot didn't laugh too much at my spec file, so I guess I have more confidence in pushing to do whatever I need to in order to won that and get Jesse out of the loop 01:04
* ianweller has to run, bye 01:04
jjmcd s/won/own 01:04
jjmcd seeYA ianweller 01:04
jjmcd eof 01:06
Sparks Okay, anything else? 01:06
Sparks #topic Guide needs? 01:06
Sparks Anyone have any needs for their guides? 01:06
Sparks I guess not... 01:07
Sparks #topic New Guides 01:07
Sparks Okay, someone put down the RPM guide 01:07
Sparks Who was that? 01:07
jjmcd Florian asked if we could take over the rpm guide 01:08
jjmcd apparently the guide in docs.fp.o might not be THE guide 01:08
Sparks Who is Florian? 01:08
jjmcd he is going to send me a link to their repo so I can look at it 01:08
Sparks I have no problems with it. I have a ticket open for it to be moved to the wiki for redevelopment. 01:08
jjmcd and then come to one of our meetings to discuss it 01:08
Sparks .bug 508930 01:09
jjmcd I see that, not sure that wiki is the desired target but 01:09
buggbot Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=508930 medium, low, ---, fedora-docs-list, NEW, Move RPM Guide to wiki 01:09
zodbot Sparks: Bug 508930 Move RPM Guide to wiki - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508930 01:09
buggbot Bug 508930: medium, low, ---, fedora-docs-list, NEW, Move RPM Guide to wiki 01:09
quaid um what? 01:09
quaid which guide is not which guide? 01:09
jjmcd we can discuss it when we have him on channel 01:09
quaid ok 01:09
quaid fwiw, yeah, converting from XML to wiki is rarely a good idea :) 01:09
jjmcd I think he is talking about the guide at rpm.org 01:10
jjmcd Evidently the rpm guys can't even build th guide 01:10
Sparks quaid: I know but things die in docs.fp.o, too 01:10
jjmcd So for now, jut a heads up that this is coming 01:11
Sparks jjmcd: Cool 01:11
quaid oh, I wonder if the one at rpm.org is the same guide, of sourts 01:11
Sparks Anyone else? 01:11
quaid ok, I'll hold my fire. 01:11
Sparks #topic All other business 01:13
Sparks Okay, does anyone have anything else? 01:13
Sparks 5 01:14
Sparks 4 01:14
Sparks 3 01:14
Sparks 2 01:14
Sparks 1 01:14
Sparks Thanks for everyone coming! 01:14
Sparks #endmeeting 01:14