2008 July 17 IRC Support Meeting
|Jeroen van Meeuwen||kanarip|
IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.
- Should and IRC Support SIG be formed?
- The general consensus was that a SIG would be beneficial to the group.
- Remove the +v stuff from helpers for now until we decide to use it.
- Code of Conduct
- Needs to be updated and reviewed.
- Currently not enough people to support running in shifts.
- How can we get more people involved in helping so that we can setup shifts?
- Tableed the topic of scheduling until we have a way to do it and decide we want to for sure.
- Helpers would also require access to #fedora-ops to settle disputes and allow for the Channel Operators to monitor the disputes and assist in resolution.
- Some days are better than others.
- Continue directing off-topic discussions to #fedora-social.
- Directing people to #fedora-social tends to lead to those people ranting in that channel.
- Free discussion
- See meeting logs for details
- Have Red Hat lawyers look into the legalities of referring to livna. Assigned: Tom Callaway (DONE)
- Legals response was to post the following disclaimer in the channel: "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat" This was done by modifying the chanserv message to display that disclaimer to every person who enters the channel.
- Form SIG. Assigned:
- Invite the Fedora Documentation personnel to assist in reviewing our pages. Assigned: Scott Glaser
- Modify/Define the code of conduct for Participants/Helpers/Ops. Assigned: All Operators
- Define the requirements for a #fedora Bot. Assigned:
- The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 24 July 2008.
- Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.
Long term ideas
- A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems (This could be shared with other support types).
- Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
- A channel bot for various needs.
Jul 17 11:30:14 <nirik> hey folks... who's here for the IRC support meeting? Jul 17 11:30:25 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Init process Jul 17 11:30:26 * thomasj Jul 17 11:31:52 * Sonar_Guy is here Jul 17 11:32:06 <ivazquez> Here. Jul 17 11:32:20 * rdieter sits in the back Jul 17 11:33:21 * nirik is sorry for not announcing the new time better... :( Jul 17 11:33:24 * zcat Jul 17 11:33:25 * J5 (n=quintice@nat/redhat-us/x-5d21b29877f79a84) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:34:12 <nirik> well, lets start up slowly here... Jul 17 11:34:18 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - SIG? Jul 17 11:34:39 <nirik> I would like to propose we form a Support SIG. Jul 17 11:35:13 <nirik> That way we could more easily get other fedora groups involved, and could use fedora infrastructure for more things, and such Jul 17 11:35:40 <Southern_Gentlem> here Jul 17 11:36:10 <nirik> anyone have any thoughts yea or nay on that? Jul 17 11:36:10 * vwbusguy (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #Fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:36:20 <vwbusguy> hello Jul 17 11:36:34 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: I have no issue as long as it does not hinder us on any way Jul 17 11:37:12 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik state your reasons why we need a SIG please Jul 17 11:37:16 <nirik> well, I asked spot to talk to the lawyers about us pointing to livna and such, and we decided that we could add a small disclaimer (which we should do anyhow) to the chanserv join message. Jul 17 11:37:49 <nirik> basically stating that the opinions of the people in the channel are their own and not those of freenode, redhat or fedora. Jul 17 11:38:12 <rdieter> +1 Support SIG, the fact that we're all meeting here means a group exists, whether you want to formally admit it or not. Jul 17 11:38:12 <vwbusguy> nirik, that is a very good idea Jul 17 11:38:34 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: good question. I think we could more easily get other fedora folks (ambassadors, package maintainers, etc) joining us if we fit into the fedora SIG setup. Jul 17 11:38:40 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1 Jul 17 11:38:54 <vwbusguy> and +1 on the SIG as well Jul 17 11:38:59 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 Jul 17 11:39:01 <nirik> I think we could also be able to use more infrastructure things, like possibly get a bot running on fedora machines, or have groups for support or ops people in FAS Jul 17 11:39:11 <nirik> (down the road) Jul 17 11:39:50 * spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:39:52 <nirik> ok, any other thoughts on this? Jul 17 11:40:22 <Sonar_Guy> I think for the most part everbody is in agreement. Jul 17 11:40:30 <Southern_Gentlem> spoleeba, the question is to start an ircsupportSIG Jul 17 11:40:34 <nirik> And happily forming a SIG is just making some wiki pages and saying we are one. ;) Jul 17 11:41:14 * roguedaemon (n=rogued@fedora/roguedaemon) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:41:15 <Sonar_Guy> Yes we will need the process spilled out, I do not know if there is any documentation on the wiki or not but I will check later. Jul 17 11:41:21 <nirik> who can change the chanserv join message to include our disclaimer? Jul 17 11:41:42 <vwbusguy> roguedaemon, we're talking about an IRC Support SIG Jul 17 11:42:01 <Southern_Gentlem> Anvil, ivazquez, spot, warren etc Jul 17 11:42:28 <nirik> ok. we can get that done this next week sometime. Jul 17 11:42:29 <warren> I'm not very useful here, I'm rather anti-IRC. Jul 17 11:42:43 <roguedaemon> i'm not really clear on what that means Jul 17 11:42:50 <warren> I don't find it particularly an effective use of time to answer the same questions over and over again, most of which can be found by Google. Jul 17 11:42:54 <vwbusguy> nirik, as far as legality goes, should anyother steps be taken to make clear that livna contains non-free or potentially legally sticky software? Jul 17 11:43:07 <vwbusguy> nirik, the reason I wonder is because #livna suggest getting support from #Fedora Jul 17 11:43:19 <BobJensen> warren: that is the problem Jul 17 11:43:31 <nirik> vwbusguy: not from us I don't think... we just need to make it clear that help is the opinion of helpers, not any other group. Jul 17 11:43:48 <nirik> warren: yes, there are lots of those... but there is also lots of real questions too. Jul 17 11:43:55 <spoleeba> warren, its the basic paradox of front line user support...in any context Jul 17 11:44:18 <spoleeba> warren, the trick is to find the people..who can do it..and feel good about doing it Jul 17 11:44:28 <vwbusguy> warren, I've also seen more people being pointed to the smart questions FAQ, which is good Jul 17 11:44:35 <BobJensen> warren: the real probelm becomes users that are completely helpless and lazy Jul 17 11:44:36 <Southern_Gentlem> ivazquez, spoleeba please change the enter message to "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat" Jul 17 11:44:46 <rdieter> spoleeba: +1 (you said it faster, and more eloquently than I was about to) Jul 17 11:44:49 <warren> I left doing LUG's and local community advocacy because I was tired of front-line support. I started Fedora to multiply the efforts of individuals. Jul 17 11:45:02 <spoleeba> Southern_Gentlem, the join message to #fedora? Jul 17 11:45:08 <Southern_Gentlem> yep Jul 17 11:45:10 <spoleeba> Southern_Gentlem, god damn it.. i have to go relearn how to do that Jul 17 11:45:14 <warren> you're free to work on the front line problem, I just personally am not very interested in it. Jul 17 11:45:17 <Southern_Gentlem> chanserv Jul 17 11:45:25 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Code of Conduct Jul 17 11:45:30 <nirik> ok, moving on here... Jul 17 11:45:39 <rdieter> warren: nod, it's a dirty job, but someone needs to do it. :) Jul 17 11:45:52 <Southern_Gentlem> spoleeba, np ivazquez or anvil can Jul 17 11:45:53 <nirik> Sonar_Guy has done a bunch of wiki work... Jul 17 11:46:02 <nirik> our stuff is currently under https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC Jul 17 11:46:03 * techbugs (email@example.com) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:46:21 <nirik> I think we should look at removing the +v stuff from helpers for now until we decide to use it. Jul 17 11:46:38 <vwbusguy> nirik, +1 Jul 17 11:46:51 <Sonar_Guy> nirik +1 Jul 17 11:46:52 * giallu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 17 11:47:03 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 Jul 17 11:47:08 <nirik> can folks go in and add comments to the talk pages for the code of conduct (or just change things) and we can talk about it more next week? Jul 17 11:47:14 <nirik> I think it still needs work. Jul 17 11:47:17 <spoleeba> Southern_Gentlem, done Jul 17 11:47:18 <spoleeba> Southern_Gentlem, i think Jul 17 11:47:28 * Southern_Gentlem has quit ("In a world without walls, who needs Windows") Jul 17 11:48:16 * Southern_Gentlem (n=notfred@unaffiliated/southerngentlem/x-2894754) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:48:20 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1 I think everybody needs to take a look at the pages and make changes/comments as needed Jul 17 11:48:36 <Southern_Gentlem> spoleeba, nope Jul 17 11:48:40 * mbacovsk (n=mbacovsk@nat/redhat/x-8b82eaad1aa1e40a) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 17 11:48:44 <nirik> also, we should ask fedora-devel and possibly fab? to look over it and comment? Jul 17 11:49:05 <vwbusguy> nirik, +1 Jul 17 11:49:08 <spoleeba> Southern_Gentlem, now its set Jul 17 11:49:10 <ivazquez> FAB sure. But it's beyond FD's scope. Jul 17 11:49:10 <nirik> any other venues people can think of that should look at it? Jul 17 11:49:14 <Southern_Gentlem> fab yes -devel no Jul 17 11:49:26 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1 but also include docs in that Jul 17 11:49:29 <nirik> ivazquez: yeah, just lots of people on devel, but I agree it's out of their area Jul 17 11:49:55 <BobJensen> spoleeba: good work Jul 17 11:49:56 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: yeah, docs would be good. I am not on that list... can you post there? Jul 17 11:49:59 <vwbusguy> Sonar_Guy, +1 to including docs Jul 17 11:50:01 * nirik is on a zillion lists and hates to add more. Jul 17 11:50:35 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: I am not sure I will have to check, if not I can add it. Jul 17 11:50:50 <nirik> ok. thanks. Jul 17 11:51:04 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, +1 Jul 17 11:51:16 <nirik> any other comments about the Code of Conduct stuff before we move on? Jul 17 11:51:56 <nirik> ok, sounds we move on... Jul 17 11:52:12 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Helpers (or whatever we call them) Jul 17 11:52:29 <nirik> so, I meant to look at ical files for scheduling, but didn't get around to it... Jul 17 11:52:49 <nirik> I would like to try and get more helper folks and see if we can start spreading out to do shifts... Jul 17 11:53:22 <BobJensen> a schedule is never going to work IMO, we all have lives and help out when we can even if it is only for 15 minutes here and there. Jul 17 11:53:39 <nirik> yeah, there is that as well... Jul 17 11:53:54 <vwbusguy> yeah, my schedule changes from week to week Jul 17 11:53:57 <nirik> the nice part of a schedule is that I think that will allow us to get other fedora folks much easier. Jul 17 11:54:08 <BobJensen> Like today, I am in a crap mood so I am avoiding #fedora at all costs today Jul 17 11:54:33 <nirik> ie, hey phred can you sign up to help in #fedora for 1 hour sometime this week? sure. How about monday night at 7 Jul 17 11:54:42 <roguedaemon> i thought about maybe making #fedora-ops invite only and giving helpers access there Jul 17 11:54:51 <nirik> so, we will always have floating folks, but scheduling will allow us to bring in more help. Jul 17 11:54:54 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: having people sign in with the bot as discussed in previous meetings would alleviate the need for a schedule and would make it more flexible Jul 17 11:55:30 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: sure, but if there are there helping then they are... +v wouldn't change that... Jul 17 11:55:38 * ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller Jul 17 11:56:01 <Sonar_Guy> no but it would show that there are helpers in the channel. Jul 17 11:56:14 <kanarip> just my $.02: +v will let people know who to harass with private messages Jul 17 11:56:35 <nirik> kanarip: true. Jul 17 11:56:35 <BobJensen> What about helpers that never leave the channel other than network burps or power outages? Jul 17 11:56:35 <Southern_Gentlem> no more than the @ does Jul 17 11:56:43 <roguedaemon> kanarip: yeah, and they will too Jul 17 11:56:44 <kanarip> Southern_Gentlem, true Jul 17 11:57:28 <nirik> BobJensen: sure... so I agree we need a group of 'regulars' or 'help as able' types (as it is now), but I think if we also do timeslots we can get some more people interested in helping. Jul 17 11:57:35 <BobJensen> Some of us are always there, some have been for 4 or more years Jul 17 11:58:02 <Southern_Gentlem> yeah but not helping at all times Jul 17 11:58:30 <Sonar_Guy> one it does not have to be and automatic sign in, secondly it does not have to be +v, we could have people .helpers and have the bot respond in private message to say what current helpers are in the channel Jul 17 11:58:33 <vwbusguy> kanarip, I don't like PMs. Jul 17 11:58:46 <vwbusguy> kanarip, solutions should be posted publically Jul 17 11:58:55 <Sonar_Guy> vwbusguy: +1 Jul 17 11:59:00 <thomasj> +1 Jul 17 11:59:03 <nirik> +1000 Jul 17 11:59:18 <roguedaemon> vwbusguy: yeah, thats the point, when they can differentiate, they will pm Jul 17 11:59:25 <nirik> I always tell folks who msg me to keep it in channel (in channel) Jul 17 11:59:28 <BobJensen> all help should allow for peer review Jul 17 11:59:38 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 BobJensen Jul 17 11:59:41 <nirik> that also Jul 17 11:59:52 <vwbusguy> nirik, I suppose that's better. I just ignore the PMs Jul 17 12:00:03 <roguedaemon> some people are just bashful i guess, they usually just need a nudge back in channel Jul 17 12:00:05 <vwbusguy> BobJensen, +1 Jul 17 12:00:25 <nirik> some people also don't know that they are doing a private message, they are confused about their client. Jul 17 12:00:39 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, sorry but BS Jul 17 12:01:02 <vwbusguy> that is probably the exception Jul 17 12:01:15 <nirik> it's rare, but I have seen it... anyhow, to go back on topic here... lets table scheduling until we have a way to do it and decide we want to for sure? Jul 17 12:01:26 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 Jul 17 12:01:41 <thomasj> +1 Jul 17 12:01:45 <vwbusguy> eh Jul 17 12:02:14 <Sonar_Guy> +1 Jul 17 12:02:38 <nirik> so can anyone think of any way we can drum up more helpers in the short term? Jul 17 12:02:47 <vwbusguy> nirik, money Jul 17 12:02:52 <nirik> ha Jul 17 12:02:53 <Sonar_Guy> lol Jul 17 12:03:19 <vwbusguy> nirik, add a quick advertisement for it in the channeltopic Jul 17 12:03:35 <nirik> the topic is already pretty bloated. Jul 17 12:03:41 <vwbusguy> yeah, that's true Jul 17 12:03:49 <vwbusguy> but where better to advertise than #Fedora Jul 17 12:04:00 <Southern_Gentlem> at this point i think anyone that is an op should step back and see if the community steps up Jul 17 12:04:05 <BobJensen> What if someone does not care to be a formal "helper" does that make the help they give any less valuable? Jul 17 12:04:14 <nirik> I can see about bugging some package maintainer / devel type folks... of course there are already some of them around. Jul 17 12:04:25 <vwbusguy> every once and a while Southern_Gentlem gives a quick pitch for Fedora-Unity testers and that seems to be working. Maybe a quick pitch once and a while for helpers Jul 17 12:04:31 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: I don't think we have the mass to do that yet.... Jul 17 12:04:38 <nirik> BobJensen: not at all. Jul 17 12:04:39 <vwbusguy> BobJensen, it shouldn't Jul 17 12:04:50 <BobJensen> I know I sure as hell do not want to be an op, I would kick out 70% of the channel Jul 17 12:05:00 <Sonar_Guy> BobJensen: not at all Jul 17 12:05:10 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, and only the people who are ops step in after like 5 minutes if no one else has stepped forward Jul 17 12:05:15 <nirik> BobJensen: on the plus side it would be much quieter. ;) Jul 17 12:05:19 <roguedaemon> i think its up to us to notice and recognize helpers, irc has a way of showing its own pecking order Jul 17 12:05:39 <BobJensen> nirik: and the IQ would quadruple Jul 17 12:05:43 <Southern_Gentlem> i have recently started helping people and 15 others jump in the conversation Jul 17 12:05:45 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: well, I can try doing that, but if I have time and see the channel my impuse is to assist. ;) Jul 17 12:05:59 <BobJensen> look at teach-me-101 in the channel right now Jul 17 12:06:02 <Southern_Gentlem> mine too nirik Jul 17 12:06:16 <BobJensen> he needs a link to RUTE and sent packing Jul 17 12:06:30 <nubs> BobJensen: he got the link to rute already Jul 17 12:06:37 <vwbusguy> wow Jul 17 12:07:06 <nirik> ok, anything else on this topic? Jul 17 12:07:29 <vwbusguy> nirik, maybe a helpers channel Jul 17 12:07:45 <vwbusguy> instead of them getting limited access to ops channel Jul 17 12:08:02 <nirik> vwbusguy: well, not sure more channels help... what would it be used for? Jul 17 12:08:07 <vwbusguy> #Fedora--helpers withwhitelisted access Jul 17 12:08:07 <BobJensen> helpers can help the ops Jul 17 12:08:31 <BobJensen> I don't see the need for yet another channel with the limit on Freenode being 20 channels Jul 17 12:08:42 <vwbusguy> nirik, well, sometimes helpers have disputes about the right solution Jul 17 12:08:47 <Sonar_Guy> BobJensen: +1 give them access here. Jul 17 12:09:03 <nirik> vwbusguy: I would think the fedora-ops channel would be ok for that... Jul 17 12:09:08 <vwbusguy> ok Jul 17 12:09:18 <nirik> also have the plus of ops seeing the dispute/chiming in. Jul 17 12:09:32 <vwbusguy> nirik, that makes sense Jul 17 12:10:00 * dwmw2_gone is now known as dwmw2_HIO Jul 17 12:10:02 <BobJensen> having a place to yell "can someone help out" Jul 17 12:10:04 <nirik> So, does anyone think things are better in channel? Are we doing any good with this organizing? Jul 17 12:10:07 * vwbusguy will have to leave soon for a project status meeting at work. Jul 17 12:10:09 <BobJensen> will be very useful Jul 17 12:10:25 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Progress? Jul 17 12:10:31 <vwbusguy> nirik, some days I think it's better, I don't know about others Jul 17 12:10:46 <vwbusguy> nirik, redirecting to Fedora-social has been good and people are starting to use it Jul 17 12:10:47 * Sonar_Guy thinks it is getting better, if only we could get rid of the negative influences. Jul 17 12:11:11 <nirik> perhaps once we get the code of conduct setup that will help... Jul 17 12:11:20 <roguedaemon> nirik: i think so, many regulars seem to be aware and are acting accordingly Jul 17 12:11:22 <nirik> at least make it more clear when to boot people. Jul 17 12:11:28 <vwbusguy> laws don't change hearts... but bans do :) Jul 17 12:12:40 * nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Free discussion Jul 17 12:12:44 <vwbusguy> occasionally there's someone on a mission to flame everything, but it seems like it's a few individuals now rather than a general channel trend Jul 17 12:12:47 <nirik> anything anyone wants to bring up? Jul 17 12:12:56 <roguedaemon> yeah, like when your license is at 6 points, you stop speeding... Jul 17 12:13:31 <nirik> yeah, the only bad side to pointing people to fedora-social for off topic is that they go and rant in there instead... but oh well, at least they arent bothering the folks asking questions. Jul 17 12:13:46 <Sonar_Guy> We need to find a way to get rid of the negative criticism from certain users, that do not take a hint. Jul 17 12:13:56 <vwbusguy> nirik, what about those coming to #Fedora to ask about proprietary software, such as Real Basic. This happened the other day. Jul 17 12:14:10 <BobJensen> I am sorry baron* is annoying no matter what channel it is in Jul 17 12:14:19 <Southern_Gentlem> Sonar_Guy, i think our plan will work Jul 17 12:14:20 <thomasj> +1 Jul 17 12:14:21 <roguedaemon> nirik: i think #fedora-social allows for a good balance, people will get used to it Jul 17 12:14:27 <vwbusguy> nirik, I mean we help people with flash and java and other livna related stuff. But what about other proprietary closed-source stuff Jul 17 12:14:34 <nirik> vwbusguy: I tell them to go ask in the support channel for their software. Jul 17 12:14:53 <roguedaemon> yeah, off-topic if its not fedora specific Jul 17 12:15:28 <Southern_Gentlem> Sonar_Guy, if they act like 2 year olds, treat them as such Jul 17 12:16:14 <BobJensen> but Southern_Gentlem they can't help it that they are mentally handicapped in some cases Jul 17 12:16:16 <Sonar_Guy> I think if we refine our participant code of conduct this will help us in that regard though. Jul 17 12:16:26 <vwbusguy> well,t heres a few that are good helpers but consistenly rude Jul 17 12:16:37 <vwbusguy> and that needs to stop too Jul 17 12:16:45 <Sonar_Guy> vwbusguy: yes it does. Jul 17 12:16:46 <roguedaemon> it seems to be already Jul 17 12:16:47 * nirik has to go do a work thing for a min... back in a flash. Jul 17 12:16:56 <vwbusguy> (Khaytsus) Jul 17 12:17:15 <vwbusguy> like right now in #Fedora, lol Jul 17 12:17:53 <roguedaemon> khaytsus has been acting more like an involved helper lately Jul 17 12:18:04 <vwbusguy> roguedaemon, no doubt, he is a good helper Jul 17 12:18:06 <roguedaemon> i think people are getting the message Jul 17 12:18:41 <BobJensen> people that argue with me, I walk away from, no matter how obvious their inbreeding is Jul 17 12:18:58 <vwbusguy> haha Jul 17 12:19:12 <roguedaemon> vwbusguy: i wish he would upgrade from fc6 though heheh Jul 17 12:19:17 <vwbusguy> I'm more tolerant because I was a total n00b when I came to Fedora Jul 17 12:19:21 <vwbusguy> haha Jul 17 12:19:27 <skvidal> BobJensen: arguing is a problem? Jul 17 12:19:35 <BobJensen> some do not like my joke, but it has gotten many of them to think about what they are asking and why, and they are better users in the end Jul 17 12:19:44 <skvidal> BobJensen: do you mean something different when you say 'argument' than what it means? Jul 17 12:20:07 <BobJensen> skvidal: my favorite is "but I am root, I used 'su'" Jul 17 12:20:29 <vwbusguy> BobJensen, yeah, but it's easy to see how someone can make that mistake Jul 17 12:20:33 <skvidal> BobJensen: and that means they're inbred? Jul 17 12:20:46 * nirik is back Jul 17 12:20:48 <vwbusguy> hence, why it's zcat's #1 FAQ Jul 17 12:20:49 <skvidal> you insult their parentage and stop helping them b/c they're confused about things? Jul 17 12:20:49 <BobJensen> skvidal: only some times Jul 17 12:21:12 <nirik> ok, anymore discussion/topics? or shall we close out this meeting? Jul 17 12:21:35 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 close Jul 17 12:21:41 <BobJensen> skvidal: no but when they will not listen and argue, refuse to read anything that tells them different... Jul 17 12:21:46 <vwbusguy> -/close